Sciencemadness Discussion Board

GBL: 600 raids in Germany, Austria, Switzerland

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Sauron - 9-7-2008 at 10:14

See this on CNN website:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/09/germany.ghb.a...

I guess this must be an Interpol thing because Switzerland isn't even in the EU.

600 homes and offices raided because police became concerned at orders for GBL from a chemical company near Munich.

GBL said to be used to "make GHB".

My understanding is, you ingest a small amount of GBL and your body makes the GHB for you in vivo.

I trust no members were affected by this.

Jor - 10-7-2008 at 02:38

Well, I have read on the german forum www.versuchschemie.de, that that were also some people raided who did not order GBL. The company sold a lot of other things to individuals, like simple standard inorganic and organic chemicals, but also rare stuff like SOCl2, AcCl, Ac2O and oleum. I was about to buy from them soon, but it's not possible now anymore.
I hope 'garage chemist' isn't raided. Even though he does pure chemistry and not anything illiegal, he does have things like PCl3, PCl5, NaCN and so on. The ignorant government won't let him keep that I think, after they have done a raid. He won't get convicted, but I cannot imagine the police walking away, saying 'have fun with your hobby and NaCN'. I think this is for all us home chemists. If you get raided, you may not get convicted, but your dangerous chemicals will be taken.

For the thread on the German forum:
http://www.versuchschemie.de/topic,11372,-Hausdurchsuchung+d...

Sauron - 10-7-2008 at 03:51

Was the Munich company a sting, do you reckon?

Garage chemist has always told me that 'T' classed chemicals are difficult or impossible to buy in Germany and must be bought through a pharmacy, yet this company was apparently selling things I'd guess were so classified, through the post. That suggests a law enforcement sting, at least IMO. Similar to the notorious red phosphorus sellers in Scotland.

The press are couching this in terms of an ati-"date rape drug" campaign, but clearly from what you say this was a broader operation aimed at a variety of (real or imagined) "naughty" activities.

chemoleo - 10-7-2008 at 04:00

Check also this, for the Germans :(
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,564756,00.html

According to versuchschemie, the agents seemed primarily worried about precursors for explosives, and confiscated H2O2, H2SO4, pot hexacyanoferrate (?), acetone, formaldehyde, KNO3, toluene, CuSO4 (??)....
Apparently they thought some KHSO4 in an evaporating dish was TATP, and when he was asked to demonstrate that it isn't (by dissolving in H2O and using a pH strip) the police guys went behind cover :o
But apparently the agents were friendly, but all came at 6:30 in the morning with an explosive sniffing dog... charming!
I wonder whether they targeted only under 18's, as I can't see that any of the above are illegal in any way!

Sauron - 10-7-2008 at 04:19

The K hexacyanoferrate = ferrocyanide, which can be used to make HCN - there's no other reason to grab it. So apparently explosives were not their sole concern.

I wonder if they caught any jihadis in their net?

As for the date rape thing I was under the impression that neither GBL, nor GHB were a legal issue in the EU, or am I wrong?

woelen - 10-7-2008 at 04:32

With some fantasy, CuSO4 can be regarded as an explosives precursor, as any transition metal salt. With nitrates, ammonia and copper sulfate you can make TACN. But of course, this is totally STUPID. In this way, EVERY metal salt, which can coordinate ammonia (and almost all of them can) could be considered an explosives precursor.

I read the stories and they are really disturbing. Sadly, the EU (at least Germany, but probably other countries as well) are going the same way as the USA.

As I understood it from the forums, the Munich company is not a sting operation, but some guy, who had a badly run company, not taking into account the rules and regulation of handling and selling chemicals.

What is more worrying though, is that the other company (in the Northern part of Germany) also is raided, and this company did adhere to all rules and was asking an Endverbleiberklärung for many of the chemicals he sold (all T, T+, and O chemicals and also quite a few highly corrosive ones). Besides that, he did not ship T and T+ chemicals to private persons in Germany, according to regulations, those had to be picked up at his store.

I read that the guy from the Munich company is arrested, but the other company might get away with this, although this affair of course will lead to loss of many of his customers. If ordering a chem from a certain place gives a high risk of being raided in the near future, then this is not a good thing at all. I think this all is a sad matter and another big setting back for the sake of home chemistry.

This affair also seems to be a highly coordinated operation. All raids were at the same time, at 6:30 in the morning, so that no one could warn others through forums and so on. There also were raids in Switzerland and Austria, and according to some austrian news, there also were two 'Ermittlungsverfahren's in other countries in Europe, but it is not precisely clear to me what this word means (I am not german). It sounds to me like an in-depth investigation, possibly accompanied with a house raid, but a native German-speaking person can explain this much better than I can.

Sauron - 10-7-2008 at 05:09

Has anyone PMd garage chemist to see if he is all right?

not_important - 10-7-2008 at 16:37

It appears that they may have gone after more than those with GBL, or even just chemists

http://ohmproject.blogspot.com/
Quote:
The Ohm Project (ohmproject.org) was knocked off the Net yesterday. The site has been hosted on a German server run by E-Tunnels, a VPN provider and sponsor of The Ohm Project.

Both The Ohm Project and E-Tunnels went dark on Wednesday about midday Central European time. No notice was provided to either party as to the cause. When an inquiry was made to the service provider, he said that "the German police" had made three complaints beginning about a month ago about unspecified "abuse" originating from one of the IP addresses assigned to E-Tunnels.

The service provider, welcome2inter.net, claimed that he had been prohibited by the authorities from relaying the complaints to E-Tunnels even though they were the only party able to respond to the situation or correct it.
...
The Ohm Project is a site providing information about threats to Internet privacy and freedom along with advice and tips about how to fight back against these encroachments.

JohnWW - 10-7-2008 at 19:17

Save the political rants for another forum.

[Edited on 7-10-2008 by Polverone]

12AX7 - 10-7-2008 at 21:15

Quote:
Originally posted by JohnWW
Bu$h


Who? I don't even understand how you're supposed to pronounce dollarsigns in a name. Budollarsignh? That doesn't make any sense.

Tim

P.S. John, take your meds. Again.

Magpie - 11-7-2008 at 08:26

The sheer scope and international coordination of these raids is astounding. And I agree with woelen that this does not bode well for home chemists, anywhere.

I am wondering about several things: Is GBL illegal to sell, buy, or posses in the affected countries? Were only those customers buying GBL raided, or was this a general sweep of all (or many) customers?

I have looked at the inventories of the internet suppliers with whom I occaisionally do business. None of them have GBL. But if the police are going to get excited by acetone and copper sulfate then there will be no end to it.

Sauron - 11-7-2008 at 08:47

My best guess is that there was specific intelligence about a jihadist plot involving explosives etc and that the broad brush raid and "GBL under the bed" story put out to the press, is a smoke screen to conceal the true nature of the operation.

AFAIK GBL is not illegal to purchase or possess in Germany, Austria, or (non-EU, remember!) Switzerland and as various members have pointed out repeatedly, GBL is a ubiquitous cleaning solvent and has many legitimate industrial uses. The same is true of BDO.

I do not know the status of GHB in EU and will have to defer to a European member on that.

But tomorrow I am meeting socially with a Swiss ambassador and will put my theory to him. I do not accept the proposition that the police of these three countries got up in the middle of the night to roust 600 amateur chemists out of bed at the crack of dawn. There's more to this than we are being told. And whatever it was it had nothing to do with protecting the virtue of college girls from the Euro equivalent of frat boys.

pantone159 - 11-7-2008 at 09:42

Quote:
Originally posted by MagpieWere only those customers buying GBL raided, or was this a general sweep of all (or many) customers?


From what I understood of the posts on versuchschemie.de (and Mein Deutch ist sehr schlecht, so I had to rely on the google translator), they were interested in very many more things than GBL, people who hadn't bought that at all were raided.

Sauron - 11-7-2008 at 10:01

Yes, that puts the lie to the cover story about date-rape drug.

So, with that in mind, are we supposed to believe that 1500-2000 police in 3 major European countries in and out of EU organized simultaneous dawn raids at 600 locations just to fuck with hobbyists?

I say no. Something else was going on that had them motivated and the rest is just blue smoke and mirrors.

Time will tell.

Meanwhile garage chemist is still out of contact. Has ANYONE heard from him?

Magpie - 11-7-2008 at 11:27

I, too, am concerned about garage chemist. He did say that he would be not experimenting for about a month. So let's hope that he is just breaking in some new lederhosen in the Alps or is otherwise incommunicado for some equally innocuous reason!

woelen - 11-7-2008 at 11:33

This is really shocking!

http://de.indymedia.org/2008/07/221841.shtml

If this is true, then they are cheating us all. This makes online buying of chemicals a very dangerous thing. I more and more am inclined to think that Sauron is right and that there is happening more behind the scene than we know.




I put a quote from www.versuchschemie.de over here:
Quote:
posted by Chemieknolle
Ich habe soeben mit Lippert telefoniert. Er sitzt in U-Haft und soll bis zu 15 Jahren im Gefängnis verbringen.
Scho alleine die Tatsache dass er eine Gifthandelserlaubnis hat (die nicht einfach so ausgestellt wird) und die Pozilei schon öfters vorbeigeschaut hat, hätte zum vorscheinb ringen müssen, dass er nichts zu mit drogen oder sprengstoff zu tun hat.
Große chemiehandelsunternehmen (so z.B: wahrsch. Merck) wollen ihn nicht mehr mit chems beliefern. Seine Frau meint, dass sie mit dem Rücken zur Wand stehen und dass kann ich mir ganz genau vorstellen:
zum einen die enorme Rufschädigung...
zum anderen die Lieferstopps
nicht zu vergessen: die finanzielle Schädigung...

Ich schätze mal, dass es das war...sowohl für den laden als auch für die praktizierende Chemie außerhalb des arbeitsplatzes.
Summarizing, the owner of the Lippert Lehrmittel shop is under arrest and there is a good chance that he will be imprisoned for 15 years. The shop most likely will stop: suppliers don't want to deal with it anymore, its reputation among customers is highly damaged and there is substantial financial damage.

This is a very sad thing. I simply cannot understand that this guy will be imprisoned for such a long time for selling the things from his shop (all chemicals are legal in Germany, and many other EU countries). Either there is done some great unjustice, or Mr. Bogatzki has done much more than selling chems from his shop in small quantities.




[Edited on 11-7-08 by woelen]

pantone159 - 11-7-2008 at 11:48

I am confused what 'Lipper Teaching Materials' is.

Is Lipper the name of a person, or the company selling chems, or something else?

woelen - 11-7-2008 at 12:05

Lippert Lehrmittel is the name of the company, but also the family name. Their website is www.chemikalien-shop.de. The company is run by Janina Lippert, but customers relations is done by Rainer Bogatzki, who did this in a perfect way with good service.

This company was a great source for chemicals in small quantities. Here you could buy e.g. 100 ml of SOCl2 for just a few euros, also private persons. I also purchased some chemicals from this company in small quantities. But according to messages on Internet (whether it is true or not, it is unclear to me), the company had a second 'shadow company' which was selling GBL on a multitonne-scale, some customers needed to be supplied by tank-trucks or with drums of hundreds of liters. I hardly can believe this story, given the perfect service, quality and adherence to rules and regulations of the company. This really was a good company, also respecting all rules of the EU, and not some shady thing like the chemical closet.

[Edited on 11-7-08 by woelen]

Sauron - 12-7-2008 at 00:40

My Swiss friend, an ambassador, concurrs with my assesment.

Three governments did not spend untold hundreds of thousands of Euros on thousands of man hours of detective work just to harass some hobbyists.

There's something else behind all this, and inconveniencing hobbyists is collateral damage.

vulture - 12-7-2008 at 01:00

Quote:

There's something else behind all this, and inconveniencing hobbyists is collateral damage.


Law enforcement probably sees this as a convenient side effect...

On the other hand, there was a related bust some time ago, involving three whackos buying large quantities of peroxide. The prosecution case on that one was very vague to say the least. Politicians don't mind spending millions of euros for scare tactics to keep the sheeple in check.

Sauron - 12-7-2008 at 02:05

Well, if that is the case, then it's time for you all in Europe to find a free country to live in. And obviously I do not mean the USA.

I am not being facetious and neither am I intending to disparage the EU. BUT if the police can confiscate property that was purchased lawfully, and possessed lawfully, without any evidence of unlawful use, then there is no due process, no property rights, no protection from unreasonable search and seizure, and fellows, that is not a free country.

[Edited on 12-7-2008 by Sauron]

JohnWW - 12-7-2008 at 04:56

I wonder if the people arrested would be safer in the Netherlands, where at least cannabis is semi-legal. Other than that, they would have to look to the likes of Armenia, Georgia, Serbia, Montenegro, Belarus, Ukraine, or, dare I say it, Russia.

chloric1 - 12-7-2008 at 07:57

Westerners (Canadians & Americans) might want to explore tropical America. Although some governements are semicooperative in drug wars, it is less difficult to set up shop and be an official business. For example Colombia, the country my wife is from, does not have income tax! I also believe licensing is a simpler process. Although a straight lab supple house might raise brows in certain areas, there are many crafts to exploit for there chemical curiosities. Maybe a soap,textile, printing supply house with some localized specialty to capture the market. I am going to spend 8 weeks in Colombia from December to Febuary and I hope I have enough time to figure out what cetain markets are and who are the best raw material suppliers.

woelen - 12-7-2008 at 10:12

Quote:
Originally posted by JohnWW
I wonder if the people arrested would be safer in the Netherlands, where at least cannabis is semi-legal. Other than that, they would have to look to the likes of Armenia, Georgia, Serbia, Montenegro, Belarus, Ukraine, or, dare I say it, Russia.
In the Netherlands the situation is not very different from the situation in Germany. Certain (soft)drugs are tolerated when purchased and possessed in small quantities, but explosives and large quantities of stuff like GBL certainly are not allowed. A similar shop in the Netherlands (which does not exist as far as I know) definitely would be monitored by some official agency and if only a tiny misstep is detected then this company will be raided. I persnally think that the ENTIRE western world is suffering from this mass-hysteria. Irrational fear is ruling the western world, leading to draconian measures as what we have seen last week in Germany.

woelen - 16-7-2008 at 07:16

This whole affair seems to be part of a much bigger thing. Chemicals should be banned from society, and only big registered companies and certain universities should be allowed to purchase chemicals.
Quote:
Geplant sind über die geforderten Inverkehrbringensverbote für Oxidationsmittel an Privat
sogar Abgabeverbote für alle wichtigen Säuren (Salzsäure, Schwefelsäure,
Salpetersäure) an Privat, Abgabeverbote von Stoffen wie (Aceton, Citronensäure
etc.) an Minderjährige sowie eine Art Erlaubnis für Erwerb von diversen
Chemikalien in der Industrie. Die Lagerung der Chemikalien soll ebenfalls verschärft
geregelt werden, um Diebstähle zu verhindern (zu erwarten ist Lagerung hinter dicken
Tresortüren).
Auf die Aufzeichnungsdaten von Verkaufsvorgängen soll die Polizei Zugriff bekommen.
Alle Informationen über die Herstellung explosiver Stoffe sollen verbannt werden,
deren Verbreitung soll als Straftat geahndet werden.
Der Handel mit Dünger soll neu überwacht werden und der Verkauf von Dünger
an Privat z.T. verboten werden.
Handel mit Klasse I/II Feuerwerkskörpern soll erlaubnispflichtig werden und eine
Fülle weiterer Verschärfungen u.a. im Sprengstoffrecht usw. sind zu erwarten...

In the EU (and apparently in the G8 as well) they are discussing absolute control of spreading of chemicals. No chemical except the most innocuous is allowed in the hands of private persons if this becomes true. For people, who can't read German:
- no oxidizers for private persons, not at all
- no mineral acids for private persons, not at all
- many other chemicals only for grown-up people, each purchase being logged for the police (e.g. acetone, citric acid)
- also an absolute stop on information about energetic materials. Spreading of such information is committing a crime
- many fertilizers not available for private persons anymore. The remaining fertilizers will be strictly monitored, each purchase being logged for the police.
- storage of chemicals in highly secured areas in order to avoid the chance of theft.
- strict monitoring of sale of fireworks

For more info see: http://www.versuchschemie.de/ltopic,11415,0,asc,0.html

If this indeed becomes true, then I'll quit home chemistry... :(

Jor - 16-7-2008 at 08:27

:mad::mad::mad::(:(:(:mad::o

Well if this really becomes reality, I'm gooing to write a letter to the government asking for permission to continue chemistry. This should be signed by all home chemists in a country (e.g. in my case woelen, me, Taaie Neuskoek, and many others on dutch forums).
This is really sad, I don't know what to do if this becomes reality. I guess I'll have to give all my chems to the government.
However, I'm NOT concerned about NH3, HCl, NaOH, acetone, ethyl alcohol, DCM, etc. They will remain very handy chemicals is all day life, and I don't think they will be banned. Also chemicals like CuSO4 (copper plating) and photo chemicals won't be forbidden I think. To be honest, I don't think the law will make it through. However, I do believe oxidisers and strong poisons will be banned soon.

The_Davster - 16-7-2008 at 08:46

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:




If one looks at the trend of the last hundred years, as in the trend from less to more regulation, this was expected.

I hate to say it, but this will pass eventually, perhaps not the first time, and more neo-fascist actions against hobbyists will be taken.

Its not a pretty picture, and I am quite worried for GC now.

I imagine such legislation will eventually come to Canada and the rest of north Americal. I will be sad to see the day where the building blocks of civillization are banned from those not gov sanctioned:(


[Edited on 16-7-2008 by The_Davster]

-jeffB - 16-7-2008 at 09:39

Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
- no oxidizers for private persons, not at all
- no mineral acids for private persons, not at all
- many other chemicals only for grown-up people, each purchase being logged for the police (e.g. acetone, citric acid)
- also an absolute stop on information about energetic materials. Spreading of such information is committing a crime
- many fertilizers not available for private persons anymore. The remaining fertilizers will be strictly monitored, each purchase being logged for the police.
- storage of chemicals in highly secured areas in order to avoid the chance of theft.
- strict monitoring of sale of fireworks


Do you suppose they'll eventually realize that they also must ban salt water and electricity (chlorine! chlorates! hydrogen!), air and electricity (nitrates!), wood (alcohol! solvents! charcoal!), aluminum (fuel!), iron (reducing agents!)...

Of course, if they make it illegal to use electricity, that'll help stem the bloody tide of "information" that they so fear. Then they can start clamping down on fire.

Rosco Bodine - 16-7-2008 at 09:52

There seems to be only two options, be a resigned peacenik and take it ... or alternately, implement some variation on that line from the Kurt Russell movie "Soldier" , taking the fight straight to
those agency assholes, by ones and twos (or more),
for the good of the community simply kill them all:D
It's a long and well known fact that dead adversaries
have a greatly reduced capability for being a problem.

woelen - 16-7-2008 at 11:30

Quote:
Originally posted by Jor
[...]Also chemicals like CuSO4 (copper plating) and photo chemicals won't be forbidden I think.
CuSO4 already is in some sense (in Germany, not EU-wide). Approximately 1 year ago it was decided that copper sulfate is not allowed anymore in high school chemistry labs. Some years before they also banned dichromates. The reason for banning copper sulfate is not terrorism, but toxicity.

Sauron - 16-7-2008 at 11:37

Roscoe, we all love you, but do you really think that your comment is a constructive one?

Rosco Bodine - 16-7-2008 at 12:09

When I add my two cents worth ,
people get what they pay for....
that way anything more is a bonus.

But really, wouldn't the world be better off
if we could bioengineer some dread disease which
would only infect clueless bureaucrats and
render them extinct as a subspecies?

chromium - 16-7-2008 at 12:12

I do not belive that what Woelen described here can ever be a law as this would need reorganization of whole society. Not any explosives in scientific, technical or patent literature. No DIY repairing. Even no cooking without bureaucracy - and how to deal with making chemicals (like citric acid or lactic acid) from natural sources, and how to draw line between chemical and nonchemical as anything we ever eat or hold in our hands is made of substances which in slightly another context are called "chemicals".

Such would-be laws are based on the false idea that substances can be clearly divided into dangerous and nondangerous ones. Unfortunatelly this can not be done. Dangers depend entirely on specifics of usage. Even air or clean water can kill and destroy property. Even poisons or explosive substances do bad only in specific cases which are clearly connected with criminal intent or lack of responsibility.

While there are certainly some people foolish enough to think that such laws would make happy future, they are too rare (and probably too unintelligent) to have enough influence on society.

That said, i too am worried about Garage Chemist. While such would-be laws will never make it, some repressive means are certainly used - for example show-like overpowered raids to private homes with virtually no evidence of crime. So there may be some bad news waiting.

I am a bit disappointed (or maybe disillusioned) about this forum as no slightest political actions by members is ever taken. Of course it may be that even this would not give any results but at the moment every government official or politician can say wholeheartedly that no home scientist has ever contacted him or otherwise informed him of any abuse.

If there would be home chemistry society wich will do nothing more than just send official letters to government institutions then even this might make some changes. At the moment we just do not exist - expect, of course, for ourselves.

I personally can not do much as my homeland is so damn small that changing anything there is completely useless to 99.99% of you and my english is far too slow to suit for giving interview or even make proper phone call. At the time i do no experimenting at all as i have two small children and am in need for better job. :-(

woelen - 16-7-2008 at 12:46

Chromium, I wish you were right. Most of this will be implemented, probably even before the end of this year. Indeed, purchase of HCl in a hardware store will not be possible anymore, let alone purchase of H2SO4 or HNO3.

This is the original official text in English translation:
http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf/en/08/st08/st08109.e...

Especially sections 2.1.1, 2.1.2 and 2.2.1, 2.2.2 should be read carefully. Any chemical, for which there are alternatives or alternatives can be developed will be banned. So, no pure HCl of decent concentration but some 'concrete cleaner' which may contain a few percents of HCl, besides lots of other stuff, such that it ONLY can be used for cleaning concrete and not for anything else (except maybe by extensive workup procedures to isolate the HCl in it).

An example substitute for hydrochloric acid is this concrete cleaner, with a nice mild smell: http://www.onlinebouwmarkt.nl/winkel/view_product.php?produc...

I have the impression that this already is going on. Since a few weeks, no 97% H2SO4 drain cleaner can be purchased anymore at Hornbach (a big German hardware store, which also has outlets in the Netherlands), and they also stopped supplying hydrochloric acid. Instead, they sell the product, mentioned above. I also failed to find hydrogen peroxide in their aquarium section (which is large). They still do sell acetone though.


[Edited on 16-7-08 by woelen]

Magpie - 16-7-2008 at 13:42

Quote:

Of course it may be that even this would not give any results but at the moment every government official or politician can say wholeheartedly that no home scientist has ever contacted him or otherwise informed him of any abuse.


Perhaps the Germans know better than to complain. What did Dr Goebbels do to those in Germany who complained about the abuses of the Nazi party - even years prior to WWII?

Jor - 16-7-2008 at 13:51

No chemistry anymore without sulfuric acid.
I will have to stock up badly on this one, and hope I have an opportunity in the future for buying it.
I can't believe it. How can I be so unlucky that I wasn't born 30 years ago!?

chemoleo - 16-7-2008 at 15:45

How about this bit:
Quote:
2.81
Limit the illicit spread of bomb-making information over the Internet
while fully respecting freedom of the press, information and expression.
Process: ongoing
2.82
Consider the approximation of criminal sanctions for distributing bombmaking
experience over the Internet in line with the amendments to the
Council Framework Decision on combating terrorism (outlined in the
Council Framework Decision amending Framework Decision
2002/475/JHA on combating terrorism).


I wonder how the freedom of information can be adhered to, given the words 'limit [...]the spread [...] of information' - I am sickened!

But I knew this was coming. I've been watching for 20 years, and it is harder and harder to get household chemicals that were common in the past.

The final days of HCl and NaOH are coming!

And terrorism (as well as drugs) delivered the perfect excuse!

The document woelen pointed to says that from the start, terrorism is the reason for the initiative.

This is how all these wars, and decades of history, affect us personally, each one of us, in the end!

[Edited on 16-7-2008 by chemoleo]

Unreal

Bromide - 16-7-2008 at 16:06

Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
Chromium, I wish you were right. Most of this will be implemented, probably even before the end of this year. Indeed, purchase of HCl in a hardware store will not be possible anymore, let alone purchase of H2SO4 or HNO3.

Un-frukking-believable. You have to give the Brussellscrats credit, though, for the sheer unvarnished authoritarianism of it--the European Union has now officially banned chemistry. There just does not appear to be any other credible way to interpret what is being promulgated in those documents.

I might be tempted to facetiously offer our European colleagues congratulations for taking the initiative and leapfrogging even the state of Texas--with its ridiculous glassware regulations--in a single legislative stroke, but for the strong hunch I've got that we New World sheeple will almost certainly face similar penal acts not so long in the future. It would be folly to think that our own regime of marching morons won't regard this EU legislation as anything other than a gentlemanly challenge to enact bans of an even more bletcherous nature here in the USA.

The_Davster - 17-7-2008 at 08:21

Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo
How about this bit:
Quote:
2.81
Limit the illicit spread of bomb-making information over the Internet
while fully respecting freedom of the press, information and expression.
Process: ongoing
2.82
Consider the approximation of criminal sanctions for distributing bombmaking
experience over the Internet in line with the amendments to the
Council Framework Decision on combating terrorism (outlined in the
Council Framework Decision amending Framework Decision
2002/475/JHA on combating terrorism).





Ok, wtf...limit freedom of speech while respecting it.:o
This right there is another harbinger of 1984. This is doublespeak, unequivocally.

len1 - 17-7-2008 at 14:46

This is all quite ridiculous and futile.

Chemists as opposed to storemen dont buy chemicals they make them, and theres no limit to what you can do.

If H2SO4 goes who cares, when you can make the 100% stuff, and even oleum from bisulphate. Then onto HCl, HNO3 and all other mineral acids. Ban gone.

We have a cell for making Na in desirable quantities. If NaOH is banned, the cell for making NaOH from salt is even simpler.

In short if its chemistry youre into bans of this sort - which might be new to Europe, but has been here for quite a while - just gives more incentive to do interesting chem and doesnt limit at all the chem you can do ive found, if you all just cooperate ..

This in no way excuses the unprincipled nature of the legislation that makes making of these elementary chems necessary. In fact I think its the introduction of a Police State - thats its meaning. It could be argued that such a state is not worth protecting from terrorists ..

[Edited on 17-7-2008 by len1]

Jor - 17-7-2008 at 14:53

I agree it should be fun to make the chemicals, but comon, something as basic as HCl, H2SO4 and NaOH should be really available...
Especially H2SO4, it's hard to make safely, unless you have a proper hood, and you need it so many times!
IMO, H2SO4 is maybe the post important chem in home home chemistry.

Sauron - 17-7-2008 at 15:04

Where's garage chemist?

woelen - 17-7-2008 at 15:16

Hmmm... I also checked the German forum (www.versuchschemie.de) and garage chemist also is not present at that forum. No post from him at all. I really hope this silence is just due to a holiday.

I also will go on holiday next week and then I might be silent as well for some time.

@Len1: I do not agree with you. Many many people who want to start home chemistry will NOT be able to make H2SO4, HCl and NaOH themselves. I'm quite sure that for you this also was not a starting project. I really like the things you have achieved and this is a great job, but do not expect such things from newbies. I really believe that such extreme regulation will stifle any starting interest of the newbies. If they find that even the most basic chems cannot be obtained without extreme effort and expense on equipment, then they will quit. Only the most ambitious ones remain. The others will just go on gaming, watching TV all day and night and drinking beers. That is exactly what many politicians seem to want. A dumbed-down person, who spends all his/her free time watching stupid mind-killing TV-programs or is playing games all day is not dangerous for the government. Active people, showing initiatives, people who are standing for something and are willing to put effort in things and bring offers for that, those are the people, which the government is scared of.

len1 - 17-7-2008 at 16:31

I was communicating with the people who most often write on this forum who certainly are not newbees.


In any case one has to define this term. If by Newbee is meant someone who has completed high school with chemistry, then he's plenty prepared to make an NaOH cell for instance. Some high school chem exp are more advanced than that. If you mean someone with not even a high school education, then he should attend adult classes, because you cant learn from this forum (he could read a book, but in most cases such people would benefit more from classes). Then again hes ready to do experiments. If the person doesnt want to do even that - and Ive had some communications from such, 'dont want to learn, want to play with them fun chemicals give me your Na cell' then I maintain hes not a newbee but a kewl, and its better that he dont touch anything. All my posts here are addressed only to the former two types of people.

(By the way I find your site very elucidating - the photos also are excellent. Ive made a hardcopy of the exps, and were going to go thru most of them with my kids. The content is better than any beginning chem textbooks I could find. If you have time you can make a very useful book out of this. And not the type weve already seen where its just a rehash of whats already out there, but something totally new. Most of the photos are book quality already - I wish I was as good with the camera)

GC wrote me and explained he'll be away for a while. I wont write more since he didnt give me instructions that I could mention it on the forum, and I hate if someone wrote something personal about me w/o my permission.

chloric1 - 17-7-2008 at 17:31

I am with len1 on this as well, although the proceedures for making NaOH, Cl2, oleum might seem daunting at first to those newbies, these will provide a much more rewarding and humbling experience than some watered down textbook ever will.

At this rate, the German government will be burning books in the streets again very soon. And when Osama and his cohorts don't turn up, what racial group will be the next scapegoat for the global gestapo?

chromium - 17-7-2008 at 22:34

@len1: You have done greatest job on making chemicals available for those who can not buy them but i do agree with woelen about newbies. There are lot of them who are not even in high school age but would like to see how piece of metal dissolves in HCl or to fill party ballon with hydrogen from NaOH + Al. Even now such schoolboys are nearly out of law in most countries. By the way in former sowiet union (where i lived in my childhood) concentrated HCl and even HNO3 where available (and not watched) and i bought them without help of my parents when i was 13 years old.

There is also another possible problem. If our european police state develops even further then they may ban possession of devices for making chemicals. Electrolytic cell or distillation aparattus are not that easy to hide from neighbours or anyone who might be eager to report suspicious activity.

That said, best we can do (if we do not want to try political actions) is what len1 and garage chemist have done in Prepublications forum - to find and document easy ways of making basic chemicals from available ones.

Sauron - 17-7-2008 at 23:38

Generate your own electricity
Blow your own glassware, starting from sand
etc
These are the logical extension of len1's positionn and the prospect of draconian restrictions on amateur science.

But you see, quickly the simplest preparations become a lot of preliminary grunt work.

Personally I prefer not to relive the 18th century.

len1 - 18-7-2008 at 01:45

I could of course retort that the logical extension of your position is that one buys all the stuff and does nothing ..

I well remember the kids experimenting with science at primary school with HCl available in NZ only with difficulty - they poured it on their hands - not much benefit to anyone. At a later age if you wanted to experiment HCl, HNO3 were readily available in high school. If you wanted to muck about thats a different matter - we shouldnt mix the two up.

I did do chem as a hobby ages 11 to 16. Chemicals were almost impossible to get in NZ at that time. That was not my biggest problem, and it isnt the biggest problem for most people either. Its lack of knowledge. If someone only explained to me as a kid how to go about things I could make most things Ive done now. For other people the problem is a work ethic.

I didnt know chems were 'not watched' in Russia. Maybe thats because all effort was spent on people watching :). Actually many things were better in the former Soviet Union. For instance that very same work ethic. Plus people would do things essentially for free - like the work Im sharing here. People in the west are brought up to think that everything has a price. Im not suggesting it was better there - life there was freightening, it was a real police state - maybe thats what we're heading to

[Edited on 18-7-2008 by len1]

YT2095 - 18-7-2008 at 02:22

although I agree with Len that there is much Fun and learning to be had from making your own reagents and extracting elements from things found in nature, there is also a case that somethings will not be possible or worthwhile.

for instance, H2O2 is being pulled, and you want some for an extraction or a glowstick, are you going to seek out barite minerals to make Barium metal and then add the oxide to water to make your H2O2?

such a thing would be insanity, surely?

Sauron - 18-7-2008 at 02:39

The nanny states never sleep, and what vulture calls the sheeple obviously (to the minds of the nannycrats) need protecting from themselves.

Someone upthread is correct, after they take the chemicals away and block all private purchase, the apparatus will be next. Glassware is already tightly controlled in some US states such as California and Texas (in varying degrees). In Texas possession of unregistered glassware and its transfer without approval from the state are serious crimes. Owners of glassware must register with the state and all purchases reported in advance and approval requested. In California as I recall, glassware purchases are restricted to $100 a day. Most of the hobbyist-friendly glassware sellers in California have gone out of business.

So it is not at all unreasonable to extrapolate such stupidity spreading, at least to the EU and sadly to Oceanina as well.

In Texas if I understand correctly even blowing your own glass is subject to same regime.

It is a well known tactic of the drug enforcement cops when looking at a suspected clandestine lab site, to monitor electrical and water use via the public utilities. If this is deemed inordinately high it's a bit in favor of the place being a lab. So my remark about generating your own electricity was not out of bounds at all.

When the government is afraid of its people it is high time for the people to be afraid of that government.

Those who are willing to trade a little liberty for some security will soon have neither.

joeflsts - 18-7-2008 at 03:24

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
The nanny states never sleep, and what vulture calls the sheeple obviously (to the minds of the nannycrats) need protecting from themselves.

Someone upthread is correct, after they take the chemicals away and block all private purchase, the apparatus will be next. Glassware is already tightly controlled in some US states such as California and Texas (in varying degrees). In Texas possession of unregistered glassware and its transfer without approval from the state are serious crimes. Owners of glassware must register with the state and all purchases reported in advance and approval requested. In California as I recall, glassware purchases are restricted to $100 a day. Most of the hobbyist-friendly glassware sellers in California have gone out of business.

So it is not at all unreasonable to extrapolate such stupidity spreading, at least to the EU and sadly to Oceanina as well.

In Texas if I understand correctly even blowing your own glass is subject to same regime.

It is a well known tactic of the drug enforcement cops when looking at a suspected clandestine lab site, to monitor electrical and water use via the public utilities. If this is deemed inordinately high it's a bit in favor of the place being a lab. So my remark about generating your own electricity was not out of bounds at all.

When the government is afraid of its people it is high time for the people to be afraid of that government.

Those who are willing to trade a little liberty for some security will soon have neither.


The Texas laws are really quite stupid and unenforcable. In fact you can walk into any Fry's in the Dallas area and buy the banned glassware off the self.

The EU stance is more frightening than the laws in Texas. If this is a signal of what is to come then I see the final death blow to home chemistry in western nations.

The Americans seem to be shifting to a more "progressive" model of government which is very, very pro EU.

The new "progressive" form of government will delight in your freedoms as they slowly, and systematically take them away - all in the name of better government sponsored care.

Joe

chromium - 18-7-2008 at 05:33

Quote:
Originally posted by len1
I didnt know chems were 'not watched' in Russia. Maybe thats because all effort was spent on people watching :). Actually many things were better in the former Soviet Union. For instance that very same work ethic. Plus people would do things essentially for free - like the work Im sharing here. People in the west are brought up to think that everything has a price. Im not suggesting it was better there - life there was freightening, it was a real police state - maybe thats what we're heading to


There was a lot of chemicals available in household or DIY type shops and there was no consumer friendly products. Everything was as basic as it can be - usually without colorants, flavors and the like. Same products were sold for years without changes in contents. It was impossible to buy industrial quantites mostly because trying to run any kind of private enterpraise was a crime (more than 10 years in prison was common for that). Goods in shops were not always available because there was usually only on or two factory which made particular goods. If there were repairing works or some problems with transportation or bureaucracy then particular goods could absent in shops for days or months.

Safety with chemicals was everybodys own concern as LE was perfectly indifferent in these matters. Medical treatment was completely free and medications were cheap. No brand names in pharmacyes, most medicines were known by their chemical names. Life was actually quite beautifull as long as you did not say anything "wrong" about soviet government, ideology or political sysytem. If someone happened to inform KGB about your nonloyality then things were very bad for you and you were lucky with only 10 years in Gulag.

Many (if not most) of officials were corrupted. Small pribes or help in aquiring western made goods was often enough to get things what were officially not available for you. About half of society was quite treatable by bribes or otherwise but another half belived sincerelly that they live in best possible country in the world and were able to report what they saw or heard. You never knew to whom you speak.

One did not need good education, job interviews or anything to get work which was enough to have house, car and children. No need to raise a loan, just some years of not very hard work - but owing more than one house (and iirc even more than one car) was crime and it was confiscated. Food, Education, science, medicine, literature, theatre etc were all well payd by state and there was no need to seek sponsors. If deciders from communist party found that your scientific or cultural work is ideologically acceptable then money was granted and also other privilegues. In every institution or enterpraise was much more workers than was actually needed. Wages were usually not main motivation for workers as these were granted anyway. Instead there were various campains by state and communist party like "Our homeland needs new books for educating future chemists" and at once best chemists of state started to write those books, got payd well and books were afterwards sold everywhere so cheaply that even some completely uneducated people might buy them just maybe once one will need it.

not_important - 18-7-2008 at 06:55

Quote:
Originally posted by joeflstsThe Texas laws are really quite stupid and unenforcable. In fact you can walk into any Fry's in the Dallas area and buy the banned glassware off the self.
...


My understanding of the Texas law was that you are supposed to declare and register chemical glassware, not that it is out and out banned.

That's actually better from the LEO standpoint, in a way. Don't have to enforce an out and out prohibition, if you are law abiding then your name is on a list down at headquarters, and if not then you can be arrested for breaking the registration law even though you did not use the glassware for any otherwise illegal activities. Bad LEO loves having lots of intrusive little known laws, so many that just about everyone has broken at least one, so that anyone can be hauled in at any time if desired.

vulture - 18-7-2008 at 10:56

Quote:

The Americans seem to be shifting to a more "progressive" model of government which is very, very pro EU. The new "progressive" form of government will delight in your freedoms as they slowly, and systematically take them away - all in the name of better government sponsored care.


Either way you don't know shit about the EU, or you're kidding (which I hope). IIRC, your current conservative government installed the patriot act and your president vetoed a ban on torturing suspects. Yay to them for increasing your personal freedom. It's saddening to see how you fall for their propaganda that "them liberals" will take your freedoms away while they'll gladly lock you up without trial.

Most EU countries have elaborate systems of social and medical care, yes. It's already in place and won't benefit from taking away freedoms, so I don't see where your logic is going.

pantone159 - 18-7-2008 at 11:32

Quote:
Originally posted by not_important
My understanding of the Texas law was that you are supposed to declare and register chemical glassware, not that it is out and out banned.


That is basically right, I think. You are supposed to request the permit in advance, though, and it may be denied, I think that registering after the fact (purchase) is not good enough.

I am almost sure that Fry's is breaking the law with their Erlenmeyer flasks on the shelf. (However, that is the only restricted piece of equipment I have noticed there, with the exception of the bazillion 'transformers' which are also on the restricted list.)
Quote:
That's actually better from the LEO standpoint, in a way. Don't have to enforce an out and out prohibition, if you are law abiding then your name is on a list down at headquarters, and if not then you can be arrested for breaking the registration law even though you did not use the glassware for any otherwise illegal activities. Bad LEO loves having lots of intrusive little known laws, so many that just about everyone has broken at least one, so that anyone can be hauled in at any time if desired.


I think this is the real point of the law. The idea being, if they suspect somebody of being a meth cook or whatever, they don't have to prove that to be able to lock somebody up.

I am not aware of any cases of this law being abused by LE (meaning going after hobbyists etc.) but I wouldn't necessarily know about it, so that might not mean much.

joeflsts - 18-7-2008 at 14:55

Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
Quote:
Originally posted by not_important
My understanding of the Texas law was that you are supposed to declare and register chemical glassware, not that it is out and out banned.


That is basically right, I think. You are supposed to request the permit in advance, though, and it may be denied, I think that registering after the fact (purchase) is not good enough.

I am almost sure that Fry's is breaking the law with their Erlenmeyer flasks on the shelf. (However, that is the only restricted piece of equipment I have noticed there, with the exception of the bazillion 'transformers' which are also on the restricted list.)
Quote:
That's actually better from the LEO standpoint, in a way. Don't have to enforce an out and out prohibition, if you are law abiding then your name is on a list down at headquarters, and if not then you can be arrested for breaking the registration law even though you did not use the glassware for any otherwise illegal activities. Bad LEO loves having lots of intrusive little known laws, so many that just about everyone has broken at least one, so that anyone can be hauled in at any time if desired.


I think this is the real point of the law. The idea being, if they suspect somebody of being a meth cook or whatever, they don't have to prove that to be able to lock somebody up.

I am not aware of any cases of this law being abused by LE (meaning going after hobbyists etc.) but I wouldn't necessarily know about it, so that might not mean much.


I think you may be right, but it isn't just Fry's. I have noticed that most Hobby Town's carry Erlenmeyer flasks as well.

Joe

joeflsts - 18-7-2008 at 14:58

Quote:
Originally posted by vulture
Quote:

The Americans seem to be shifting to a more "progressive" model of government which is very, very pro EU. The new "progressive" form of government will delight in your freedoms as they slowly, and systematically take them away - all in the name of better government sponsored care.


Either way you don't know shit about the EU, or you're kidding (which I hope). IIRC, your current conservative government installed the patriot act and your president vetoed a ban on torturing suspects. Yay to them for increasing your personal freedom. It's saddening to see how you fall for their propaganda that "them liberals" will take your freedoms away while they'll gladly lock you up without trial.

Most EU countries have elaborate systems of social and medical care, yes. It's already in place and won't benefit from taking away freedoms, so I don't see where your logic is going.


The point of my post is that the EU is proposing sweeping changes thru new laws that will make it basically impossible to practice home chemistry.

American's seemed to want to elect "progressive" leaders which admire the EU.

I could care less about what conservatives have done as it relates to what I originally posted - these new laws are being driven by the EU and I'm predicting the US will follow. In government there is hardly any difference between conservatives and liberals. Both will fuck you and tell you it is for your own good. Internment camps under a liberal, Gitmo under a conservative.... History is what it is...

Joe

[Edited on 18-7-2008 by joeflsts]

Sauron - 18-7-2008 at 15:27

What this thread is all about is what the police of two major EU member nations plus a neighbor have recently done, which is apparently the confiscation of lawful property lawfully acquired and lawfully posessed without due process.

On a coordinated simultaneous multinational basis.

The German, Austrian and Swiss police apparently can just make things up as they go, to suit their mood. Hang the law.

chloric1 - 18-7-2008 at 15:38

What makes this sad, is along with these extra measures to restrict reagents and apparatus, the hobby is under social presecution. That tells me that this has been deliberate and planned for a very long time. I, being born in the 1970's, am astonished when I read older chemstry texts and they imply a chemical experiement is not only acceptabe behaviour but ENCOURAGED. Since the 1970's scientists and tinkerers have been labled as geeks, nerds, dorks all derogatory monikers that suggest antisocial tendicies. Then of coarse, you have the Unabomber of the 1980's mailing bombs to business owners and politcal targets. Later, you have Oklahoma City and 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. So, you see the mass media and popular culture has evolved the shy little nerdy guy into a killing terrorist. Any guess what this is leading to.

So, to summarize, you have a laundry list of stupid laws and a whole civilian populace more than eager to police their neighbors.

len1 - 18-7-2008 at 18:03

Quote:


Many (if not most) of officials were corrupted. Small pribes or help in aquiring western made goods was often enough to get things what were officially not available for you. About half of society was quite treatable by bribes or otherwise but another half belived sincerelly that they live in best possible country in the world and were able to report what they saw or heard. You never knew to whom you speak.

One did not need good education, job interviews or anything to get work which was enough to have house, car and children. .


Thats quite interesting - I'd hazard a guess that that half of society who sincerely believed is that half which is starving right now, while the half that took bribes have found that they are best able to make a transition to what they call 'the market economy' - and you can guess which half the government is in.

But some things were very good. A while back in a Russian supermarket my wife and I were confronted by a couple of girls at stands trying to flog things of - just like in our supermarkets except they were relatively new to Russia at the time. We were quite amuzed and said yes we will buy it. They got very embarassed, and said we dont have to, maybe we were not planning on spending on this sort of stuff now.

And I thought what a difference from the stupid b..ches in Australian supermarkets, or the people ringing us at home regularly to flog things off. They would never give a second thought that maybe theyve put a person in a difficult situation, he couldnt say 'no', and now he'll buy something he doesnt need and might be short of money for somerhing he does. That's after all is why they are there - to use their persuasion to get you to do something you werent going to. If you are too easily swayed or cant control your finances is not their problem. They certainly have no shame exploiting such people. I say our people should be ashamed of this aspect of our society - and perhaps some things are better in 'our enemies' camp.

As for books. Why does a good chem book here cost $140 when in Russia you could buy an equivalent for $20. Why cant I afford to buy many books here. Why are we making money out of knowledge? Is that why we have a stupid society, getting back to the topic - because nobody wants to give something for free? IS that the reason for why were going were we are?

Registering Erlenmeyer flasks - its probably not coincidental that the most brutal state in the US seems to be also the dumbest. Anything you can do in Erlenmeyer you can do in a glass. And anyone with any experienece in chem practice at all would know that if you wanted to make trafficable quantities of drugs or explosives standard lab apparatus is useless for you. Yod be dealing in 10-100 kgs quantities of reagents for which the pots and pans anf other gear in Kmart is far more suitable. Lets ban Kmart.

[Edited on 19-7-2008 by len1]

JohnWW - 18-7-2008 at 18:21

Quote:
Originally posted by len1
Registering Erlenmeyer flasks - its probably not coincidental that the most brutal state in the US seems to be also the dumbest. Anything you can do in Erlenmeyer you can do in a glass. And anyone with any experience in chem practice at all would know that if you wanted to make trafficable quantities of drugs or explosives standard lab apparatus is useless for you. Yo'd be dealing in 10-100 kgs quantities of reagents for which the pots and pans anf other gear in Kmart is far more suitable. Lets ban Kmart.]

Here in New Zealand, one can buy Pyrex (or other branded heat-resistant borosilicate glass) kitchenware, from variety and hardware and similar stores, that can be used as substitutes for beakers and Erlenmeyer (conical) flasks and even as bell-jar dessicators. Are such items banned in Texa$ (the most brutal and corrupt state in the U$A as you say), along with regular laboratory glassware?

pantone159 - 18-7-2008 at 19:55

Quote:
Originally posted by JohnWW
Are such items banned in Texas


Texas law requires that individuals register many types of lab equipment, but beakers and test tubes are not on the list, so such kitchenware is not restricted.

Many of the items on the list are extremely/unreasonably vague. E.g., 'transformer', 'adaptor tube', 'flask heater', which could all mean many things. As absurd as it is to regulate 'erlenmeyer flasks', at least that is a more-or-less well-defined term.

BTW - I am not going to try and defend everything about Texas, but please note that our (infamously) distinguished President really pretends to be a Texan, he is really a blue-blood from Connecticut. (Although he did get elected Governor here, despite my vote against him.)


[Edited on 18-7-2008 by pantone159]

Sauron - 18-7-2008 at 19:56

I always love JohnWW's little rants about the USA.

It's true we have a monopoly on corruption.

On the other hand the last New Zealand cop I knew, whose name is Graham Cleghorn, was booted off the Wellington PD, where he was a grand theft auto detective, for running his own car theft ring.

And he is now in jail in Cambodia for pedophilia. Do a Google on the name and you will hear all about him. One of the most corrupt individuals I have ever known. a Kiwi.

chromium - 19-7-2008 at 01:30

Quote:
Originally posted by len1
Thats quite interesting - I'd hazard a guess that that half of society who sincerely believed is that half which is starving right now, while the half that took bribes have found that they are best able to make a transition to what they call 'the market economy' - and you can guess which half the government is in.

Of course, although i am not quite sure about starving.
Quote:

A while back in a Russian supermarket my wife and I were confronted by a couple of girls at stands trying to flog things of - just like in our supermarkets except they were relatively new to Russia at the time. We were quite amuzed and said yes we will buy it. They got very embarassed, and said we dont have to, maybe we were not planning on spending on this sort of stuff now.

Soviet union lived according marxist ideology wich said that making easy and high profits by reselling goods is root of all evil in the world. In soviet union director of enterprise earned only two or maybe three times more than his workers. Hi did not get any profits by particular transactions but earned every month one and the same fixed wage. No matter how bad or good his business went.

Trying to collect more property than one actully needs was considered unethical and was often interpreted allegorically as stealing from those who actully need it. Trying to earn much more than common wages were was also considered unethical. There was very few advertising, nobody never did any tricks to sell you something as someones income was not related to amount of sold goods. This economy had of course very serious problems. Many of produced goods were of low quality and there was not enough of them. Leaders had no motivation to exert oneself as wages did not depend on achieved results.

Quite beautiful aspect of that time was general intellectual atmosphere. This is one of few things i trully miss. There was no foolish advertising, TV and radio had almost no low quality entertainment. Radio played mostly classical music, aproximately quarter of time was completely uninteresting ideological propaganda but after that everything had intellectual touch in it. There was lot of popular science and educational programs. Books where cheaper than chocolates. People did not talk about Teletubbies, Colgate toothpaste or special prices on new Toyota automobile, and even when drunk they often talked about geography, science or culture as this was what they just read from books or saw on TV.


[Edited on 19-7-2008 by chromium]

chloric1 - 19-7-2008 at 06:14

@len1&chromium- Absolutely fascinating! I never had this much insight into Soviet Society. I can remember growing up in Reagan America in the 1980's and being told that the Soviet Union was an Empire of Evil. But thanks to your generosity with information, I got a common- man vew of what Soviet life was truly like. It sounds like it was oppressive but the intellectual atmosphere sounds like a dream. Do we need a police state in the USA so we can have an inspiring atmosphere? Or, are we going to be so oppressed that we will simply have nothing to live for.

Magpie - 19-7-2008 at 08:49

Yes, thanks chromium for that fascinating insight into soviet life. I always suspected that htere was strong support of the arts and intellectual pursuits by the government but never knew that it also existed at the level of the common man.

Quote:

Do we need a police state in the USA so we can have an inspiring atmosphere?


A police state based on the philosophy of the current occupants would be the worst of all worlds. After all, aren't they the ones who have coerced and tried to eliminate PBS.

argyrium - 19-7-2008 at 15:11

I grew up in Spain under Franco and went to school there from the early '60s through the early '70s. One could do just about anything or purchase anything. Virtually anything non-radioactive was available OTC (glassware, picric acid, acids, salts, organics, chloral hydrate, alkaloids-including opiates, stimulants, depressants, etc.) with no questions asked from the farmacia or chemical companies - but one would end up going to jail for cannabis possession.

During those years, Barcelona was the safest large port city on the Mediterranean. A man or woman could walk anywhere at any hour with no fear of mischief occurring.

As long as a person did not blatantly criticize the government or advocate for one of the separatist groups, they were likely to be left alone. If you were involved with the wrong people, you could end up in prison/jail. The Guardia Civil were always present - if only just visible in the distance. It was arguably a dictatorship.

After Franco's death, it was as though flood gates had opened. Many in self-exile or otherwise returned. Anarchists, Marxists, separatists, etc. Barcelona/Catalunia had always been a very "progressive" region and many of these were there underground anyway. New "freedoms" were discovered by many. Many of them were good and welcome along with many that were destructive.
Aside from the rallies and festive feelings in the air and after the "new rule" of parliamentary democracy came in, one of the first things I noticed was graffiti (everywhere) of political or sexual nature - defacing the beautiful stone buildings. Pornografia - once forbidden, being sold everywhere in public, and the open use of cannabis. Shortly after this, one could no longer purchase the above mentioned raw chemicals that had physiologic effects without paperwork and later, salts, acids, organics started becoming more restricted.

The size of the government increased dramatically and has continued to since that time. I have family still there and so keep abreast pretty closely with what is going on.

Today, there are many barrios in Barcelona unsafe to walk through, night or day. This is unfortunately largely due to the hugh influx of peoples from Northern Africa and their associated problems of not wanting to assimilate as they once did (more so). There is considerable drug problem/trafficking and this is increasingly being used as excuse to further tighten restrictions on all chemicals.

It will be interesting to see the fireworks community response if they start seeing restrictions (Spain has wonderful fireworks).

As the EU becomes more powerful, the central authorities will be increasingly remove "privileges" granted to the citizens. This happens everywhere; as individual rights increase - government control decreases. As government control increases - individual right decrease. Axiomatic. The saying ..a government powerful enough to provide for all ones needs is also powerful enough to take all... - is enlightening.

I think less government "help" is more in line with the objectives of most in this wonderful group of thinkers. This at least is my hope.

I agree with some of the above posters that the seemingly poorly written/ambiguous laws we see more and more CAN and will be used if the authorities chose to apply them to suit there desires. All of this does not seem encouraging.

chloric1 - 19-7-2008 at 18:05

Spain has had a colorful past as well so it seems. I guess the important thing is having hope that there can be somewhere else for us to go if it gets too bad. Maybe living in a third world nation for 8 or 10 years( or more) may be the answer until some major government overhauls can be done in the first world.

Phosphor-ing - 2-8-2008 at 21:16

@garage chemist, Please post here and let us know your all right. If you have any info about the raids, the original topic, please post that also.

woelen - 3-8-2008 at 04:58

In Germany three new changes have occurred:

1) Starting at July 1, 2008, online sellers of chemicals are responsible for abuse of the chemicals they sell. So, if one of the customers of such a company does something illegal with one of the chemicals they sell, then the owner of the company will be punished for this.

2) The following compounds may not be sold to private individuals, starting at July 28, 2008:
1. Ammoniumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 6484-52-2) und den in Satz 2 genannten ammoniumnitrathaltigen Zubereitungen,
2. Kaliumchlorat (CAS-Nummer 3811-04-9),
3. Kaliumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 7757-79-1),
4. Kaliumperchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7778-74-7),
5. Kaliumpermanganat (CAS-Nummer 7722-64-7),
6. Natriumchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7775-09-9),
7. Natriumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 7631-99-4),
8. Natriumperchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7601-89-0),
9. Wasserstoffperoxidlösungen mit einem Massengehalt von mehr als 12%

3) At the end of July 2008 a letter is sent to all pharmacies, with the subject 'Verdachtsmeldung'. This means that any suspicious purchase of chemicals should be mentioned to the police. The letter explicitly mentions that purchases of oxidizers are suspicious by default. From now on, when you buy chemicals in a pharmacy, you need some sort of ID. .

These three new laws/rules make it almost impossible for a German amateur chemist to obtain any chemical in Germany. This is a very effective way of completely ruining the hobby of home chemistry. At the German forum (somewhat like sciencemadness, www.versuchschemie.de) things are discussed in great detail, but it looks like doing home chemistry in Germany is almost impossible, except for the most simple things like making bubbles of soda and that kind of stuff.

Suppliers from other EU-countries are kept on eye on by German customs. Parcels coming from one of these suppliers will be checked by customs when they go into Germany. So, online buying chems from e.g. the Netherlands or Austria is not an option, unless you pick up the chems yourself by driving to those countries and picking up the chemicals.


If I read all these things, then it really makes me sad and worried. How long will it take before other EU countries also introduce such draconian rules? In just two months time, the situation has changed for Germany from being one of the best countries for home chemistry to being the worst country for home chemists, probably of the entire western world.



[Edited on 3-8-08 by woelen]

The_Davster - 3-8-2008 at 05:09

OK, just WTF prompted this?
Usually inane regulations come out of some highly publicized incident, but what exactly prompted them to go gestapo on hobbyists?

The chems now essentially banned are obviously explosive precursors, odd considering their cover was GBL, a drug precursor.

I don't get their game, they aren't even pandering to the unwashed masses this time.

:mad:

woelen - 3-8-2008 at 05:17

This also is a complete mystery to me. I simply do not understand what is going on in Germany, although I only live a few tens of km from that country (and I occasionally visit it). I do not believe this is a gestapo on hobbyists, I think that the damage done to hobbyists is collateral damage, which is deemed acceptable by the government.

len1 - 3-8-2008 at 05:27

Theyve leap-frogged us. Here KMnO4, H2O2 are still perfectly fine. Pity - I found them very trusting people compared to our locals.

The_Davster - 3-8-2008 at 05:37

Collateral damage? What was the real target then? We all know how the media loves to to take any incident and sensationalize it, but there is no word on anything prompting this.

chloric1 - 3-8-2008 at 05:42

Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
In Germany three new changes have occurred:

1) Starting at July 1, 2008, online sellers of chemicals are responsible for abuse of the chemicals they sell. So, if one of the customers of such a company does something illegal with one of the chemicals they sell, then the owner of the company will be punished for this.

2) The following compounds may not be sold to private individuals, starting at July 28, 2008:
1. Ammoniumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 6484-52-2) und den in Satz 2 genannten ammoniumnitrathaltigen Zubereitungen,
2. Kaliumchlorat (CAS-Nummer 3811-04-9),
3. Kaliumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 7757-79-1),
4. Kaliumperchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7778-74-7),
5. Kaliumpermanganat (CAS-Nummer 7722-64-7),
6. Natriumchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7775-09-9),
7. Natriumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 7631-99-4),
8. Natriumperchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7601-89-0),
9. Wasserstoffperoxidlösungen mit einem Massengehalt von mehr als 12%

3) At the end of July 2008 a letter is sent to all pharmacies, with the subject 'Verdachtsmeldung'. This means that any suspicious purchase of chemicals should be mentioned to the police. The letter explicitly mentions that purchases of oxidizers are suspicious by default. From now on, when you buy chemicals in a pharmacy, you need some sort of ID. .

These three new laws/rules make it almost impossible for a German amateur chemist to obtain any chemical in Germany. This is a very effective way of completely ruining the hobby of home chemistry. At the German forum (somewhat like sciencemadness, www.versuchschemie.de) things are discussed in great detail, but it looks like doing home chemistry in Germany is almost impossible, except for the most simple things like making bubbles of soda and that kind of stuff.

Suppliers from other EU-countries are kept on eye on by German customs. Parcels coming from one of these suppliers will be checked by customs when they go into Germany. So, online buying chems from e.g. the Netherlands or Austria is not an option, unless you pick up the chems yourself by driving to those countries and picking up the chemicals.


If I read all these things, then it really makes me sad and worried. How long will it take before other EU countries also introduce such draconian rules? In just two months time, the situation has changed for Germany from being one of the best countries for home chemistry to being the worst country for home chemists, probably of the entire western world.



[Edited on 3-8-08 by woelen]


This comes as terrible news especially as I have seen numerous German influences on chemistry literature in the late 19th century/early 20th century. Americans would marvel at the inovative geerman chemical industry. We would not have cheap Ammonia without the German chemists. So the irony is more bitter than strychnine, Germany once the center of chemical invention is now the center of evil globalist scientific oppression.:mad::mad:

Governments are to blame for sure but all those selfish greedy drug dealers are to blame too. Just because they want to make money without a honest days work, the fun and wonder is taken away from science ultimately resulting in another dark age.

not_important - 3-8-2008 at 06:59

Sounds similar to the Canadians:
Quote:

Mar. 31 - Canada: Restricted Components Regulations
From Canada’s Ministry of Natural Resources, and recently printed in the Canada Gazette. The full text of the regulations is available here. A few key details:

What it covers:
The following components of an explosive are prescribed for the purpose of the definition “restricted component” in section 2 of the Act:

(a) ammonium nitrate in solid form at a concentration between 28 and 34% nitrogen;

(b) hydrogen peroxide at a concentration of at least 30%, UN numbers: 2015 and 3149;

(c) nitromethane, UN number: 1261;

(d) potassium chlorate, UN number: 1485;

(e) potassium perchlorate, UN number: 1489;

(f) sodium chlorate in solid form, UN number: 1495;

(g) nitric acid at a concentration of at least 68%, UN numbers: 2031 and 2032;

(h) potassium nitrate, UN numbers: 1486 and 1499; and

(i) sodium nitrate in solid form, UN numbers: 1498 and 1499.

[Section 3 of the Act]

These components will no longer be available for sale in Canada:
No person shall sell a restricted component except in accordance with these Regulations.

[Section 4 of the Act]
Unless the seller is on the list of sellers of restricted components

The restrictions on Ammonium Nitrate come into effect on June 1, 2008 and the restrictions on all other chemicals come into effect on March 1, 2009


And the USA
Quote:

Three of the four points of paragraph 5 in the judge's order that may have the greatest effect on amateur rocket scientists are that Firefox is permanently restrained from "participating in any transaction that involves selling, giving away, holding for sale, or otherwise distributing:"

* To any delivery address or to any individual, more than one pound of any oxidizer per twelve-month period;
* To any delivery address or to any individual, any fuel for which the particle size is finer than 100 mesh (or particles less than 150 microns in size); and
* To any delivery address or to any individual, any tube 10 inches or shorter in length.

As defined in the order, "Oxidizer" means ammonium nitrate, potassium chlorate, potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, sodium chlorate, sodium perchlorate, sodium nitrate, barium nitrate, strontium nitrate, or potassium permanganate. "Fuel" means aluminum and aluminum alloys, magnesium, magnesium/aluminum alloys (magnalium), antimony sulfide, antimony trisulfide, potassium benzoate, sodium benzoate, sodium salicylate, sulfur, titanium, zinc, zirconium, or zirconium hydride.


Looks like the West as just about handy 21st century chemistry to the Indians and Chinese, rocketry too perhaps. Primary and secondary educational organizations are cut out in the Canadian case, unless they're run by the government; I doubt that many will want to deal with anything so obviously dangerous. Even higher education establishments are likely to think twice, and some breath mints mixed with carbonated beverages don't seem to me to be a great hook on getting kids excited about chemistry so those chemistry (and physics?) departments may have few students.

franklyn - 3-8-2008 at 09:55

The inadvertent curtailment of amateur chemistry is a consequence of anonymous
diversion of chemicals for unlawful end use. Commerce involving chemical substances
is not banned, just more stringently monitored and regulated. Legitimate use not
specifically outlawed has to be defended on its own merit. This is a political matter,
not one of legislation or law enforcement. Pest exterminators always required
licensing to use pesticides, pharmacies of course require to be registered, garden
and horticultural users also need to provide information on fertilizer transactions.

Firearms use is licensed and purchases are recorded in the same way for the
same reasons. The United States has a tradition of individual firearm ownership
which is zealously protected by principally the National Rifle Association.
There is no lobby for amateur chemists, hence we are not heard or acknowledged.
The only realistic remedy to becoming a marginalised minority is to provide some
form of registration or licensing for individual end users.

.

vulture - 3-8-2008 at 12:52

Anybody remember what happened when the US government banned alcohol in the 30's?

Look at the bright side, more power for the amateur chemist, with every legislative crackdown you gain knowledge, means and thus power over the unwitting masses. Just don't do stupid stuff which gets you caught.

The laws of nature will always prevail over ignorant politicians, no matter how hard they'll try. Suck it up, wait a few years and laugh yourself silly when poetic justice kicks in.

Magpie - 3-8-2008 at 13:15

This really makes me sick for the German home chemists. If you have ever visited the versuchchemie.de site you quickly see what an enthusiastic and competent bunch they are, even though most are quite young. Unfortunately, this latest political invective may, out of necessity, turn them all into total synthesis freaks.

As for my position in the US, it is a warning shot across the bow.

[Edited on 3-8-2008 by Magpie]

chemoleo - 3-8-2008 at 16:23

Quote:
I do not believe this is a gestapo on hobbyists, I think that the damage done to hobbyists is collateral damage, which is deemed acceptable by the government.

I'm also most concerned by this.
I hope the Germans on that forum at versuchschemie raise some serious law suits. If I had been raided in this manner, I'd certainly sue, even if it meant selling all my chems to pay for the friggin laywers :P

I agree this is considered collateral damage. Germans have always been weird about a few things - take nuclear power for example. Totally irrational to prohibit it to the extent they do. They actually chain themselves to the rail tracks when a 'castor transport' (delivering nuclear waste to a storage site) happens, and people were in fact killed becuase the chained people weren't released fast enough from the rails. It is because there is a very significant green movement in Germany, and of course the fear of anything nuclear (in part due to WW2, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, essentially directly a product of German scientists, and the war itself). I think this extends to anything explosive related nowadays - and perhaps even science altogether. Science unfortunately does not have the same credentials in Germany as it used to - again for historical reasons- because so much of science was abused for the purpose of war. This is why, before the war, Germany had more than 50% of all Nobel prizes together. Whilst, after the war, the emphasis was on restructuring the country, generating a happy peaceful people that would not dabble in things that could ever be abused for war purposes. Hence the green movement too, and the antinuclear stance. Basically the emphasis shifted to the well-being of the people, rather than their achievements. The former has certainly been achieved, equality is great in Germany, and people are generally very well off. Achievement is, unlike in the US, not anymore considered a lofty desirable goal. This has both positive and negative ramifications. Positive being, there aren't many poor, not much crime (comparably), and everyone is generally happy. Generally. Negative being, Germany has lost the edge scientifically for the last 50 years.
Sometimes I think this will bounce back, but given how underfunded the univeristy/science sector is, I doubt it. It is simply considered more important to make sure the unemployed are kept happy with their benefits, rather than spending that very money on massive science projects.

It's a pity in a way. But let's not forget (with this one I address the americans here) - Germany doesn't have the oil dollar, it doesn't sell huge quantities of profitable weapons, and so on - there *is* a reason why the US can afford to fund science to the degree it does! Then, undeniably, there's an extremely competitive spirit in science in the US, which is not the same here in Europe.

len1 - 3-8-2008 at 19:21

I think todays Germany has got most things right. If its worried more about lowly unemployed than funding the ego-driven money feasts of the scientific community it has that right too - compare the beauty of most German cities to the eye-sore insult to humanity of the US inner-cities. The competitive edge in US science is more appropriate to the business envirnoment than to science, where it has produced few results.

Sauron - 4-8-2008 at 07:16

Oh yes we all remember the "beauty" of much of East Germany. East Berlin still mostly in rubble well into the 1960s, two decades after the war's end.

Interesting segue from "ego-driven money feast of the scientific community" to a discussion or urban blight.

But I am really not sure what either has to do with the thread topic, in the slightest way. Are you perhaps on the same meds as JohnWW? Skipped your anti-polemic pill today? Take two tomorrow.

len1 - 4-8-2008 at 14:29

That link was of course made in the long post above, and there is a validity to it - where does an afluent society spend its money? As for thread topic - it seems the topic of all your threads is you - something Im not the least bit interested in

Polverone - 4-8-2008 at 15:09

Let's try to keep this thread about the recent chemical raids and the changing regulatory environment.

woelen - 13-8-2008 at 11:47

Things in Germany are developing into really ridiculous things. Some potassium salts are considered weapons by German law (potassium salts of certain nitrated aromatic compounds) and possession of such compounds only is allowed by people, having suitable permits.

One of the guys (chemieknolle) from www.versuchschemie.de was raided and they found K4Fe(CN)6 and KNO3 and a whole bunch of other chemicals. The chemicals were taken away, but now the chemicals were returned to him, except the K4Fe(CN)6 and KNO3. The reason given by the expert: "Potassium salts are considered weapons by German law". Expert????? This really is ridiculous, it is really astonishing that such incompetent people are paid by governments (and indirectly by us) and that these same incompentent people determine what happens with your property! :mad:

So, KCl, KBr, K2CO3 etc. all are considered weapons by this incompetent 'expert'. I can understand that some particular nitrated compounds are considered weapons, but this law is only read halfway by such an incompetent 'expert'. The problem in this case is not the law, but the person who has to enforce the law.

Sauron - 13-8-2008 at 12:36

Well, while I agree that this is ludicrous on its face, potassium (and sodium) ferrocyanide are well known as immediate precursors for HCN as is well illustrated by threads on our own forum and many places in the literature.

So one can take the legalistic position: is potassium ferrocyanide prohoboited/restricted in German law or not? If answer is yes then end of story. If answer is no then apparently the German authorities have decided to be sufficiently concerned about possible HCN sources, to overstep their authority's limits.

I hardly need to elucidate the uses of KNO3 here. Among many others, preparation of HNO3, prepn of black powder, and use in many pyrotechnic and blasting mixtures. Many or all of these have been dealt with on this forum over and over and over.

Let me repeat, I agree that these confiscations are silly, and may not have any basis in law. But let's now pretend that official concern is totally unfounded and without rational basis whatsoever.

Because that is not the issue. The issue is whether or not possession of lawfully acquired KNO3 and pot.ferrocyanide, is in fact now illegal in Germany. If not then the cops are on very thin ice.

Home chemist's association formed

oldtimer - 18-8-2008 at 01:12

Something is happening in Germany:

As a reaction to the events mentioned above in this thread, and to form a representation that speaks publicly in favour of people doing home chemistry and other (private) experimentation, a group of members of the German board Versuchschemie founded the

"Interessenverband Naturwissenschaft und Technik", IVNT
(interest group for schience and technology).

The constituting assembly was held on Saturday, Aug. 9. A web site (www.ivnt.de and www.ivnt.org) will appear soon, in the meantime our statutes and a membership application can be found on www.versuchschemie.de. While the group will concentrate it's activities to Germany and, to a lesser extent, other EU countries, members from all parts of the world are welcome. Annual fees are € 50 for regular members, € 20 for under 18, students, unemployed, etc.

Our main activities will be trying to influence the public perception of home experimentation, giving the home experimentator a voice, helping people (Of course, with an emphasis on members) who through their activities got the attention of law enforcement, and trying to influence rulemaking towards more liberal conditions for private science.

Any of these activities is only possible with a sufficiently large membership - only a loud voice will be heard, and only a deep war chest can move things.

I am happy to answer any questions,

info@ivnt.de

oldtimer
president IVNT

Arrhenius - 18-8-2008 at 08:21

^^ Excellent way to respond to the issue at hand in Germany. Thanks for the info.

joeflsts - 18-8-2008 at 09:15

Quote:
Originally posted by oldtimer
Something is happening in Germany:

As a reaction to the events mentioned above in this thread, and to form a representation that speaks publicly in favour of people doing home chemistry and other (private) experimentation, a group of members of the German board Versuchschemie founded the

"Interessenverband Naturwissenschaft und Technik", IVNT
(interest group for schience and technology).

The constituting assembly was held on Saturday, Aug. 9. A web site (www.ivnt.de and www.ivnt.org) will appear soon, in the meantime our statutes and a membership application can be found on www.versuchschemie.de. While the group will concentrate it's activities to Germany and, to a lesser extent, other EU countries, members from all parts of the world are welcome. Annual fees are € 50 for regular members, € 20 for under 18, students, unemployed, etc.

Our main activities will be trying to influence the public perception of home experimentation, giving the home experimentator a voice, helping people (Of course, with an emphasis on members) who through their activities got the attention of law enforcement, and trying to influence rulemaking towards more liberal conditions for private science.

Any of these activities is only possible with a sufficiently large membership - only a loud voice will be heard, and only a deep war chest can move things.

I am happy to answer any questions,

info@ivnt.de

oldtimer
president IVNT


This ultimately is what it is going to take around the world. There are scattered organizations in the US for example that are trying. I have also been working at a personal level in the US to get some attention to draconion laws here. The problem is:

Hobbyists in general do not have the money to get politician's attention.

It is difficult, if not impossible to get corporate sponsorship. It isn't so much a reason based on legality but more based on the fact that "profesional chemists" tend to have disdain for amateurs. Since they represent the unofficial "official" voice of buyers of most potential corporate sonspors it makes it difficult to be taken seriously.

The drug and explosive related negative news stories hurt, plain and simple.

Each major hobby tends to have it's political arm. For example the AMA represents model airplane hobbyists. Utlimately we need something similar.

Joe

woelen - 18-8-2008 at 11:30

I am considering joining this group, but how many members does the group have at the moment?

Unfortunately I see a tendency that professional chemists are more and more negative towards home chemistry. I am a member of a Dutch chemistry forum, not specific for home chemistry, but general chemistry. You see that most negative reactions come from professional chemists, working in industry or on universities. They simply state that home chemistry is plain wrong, irresponsible and dangerous. This has nothing to do with fear of drug-making or terrorism, they truly believe that most home chemists have good intents and do not want to do anything illegal, but they do not believe that home chemists can work safely in a residential area, without all the safety equipment and procedures, as one can expect in a serious, well-equipped lab.

Magpie - 18-8-2008 at 13:00

Quote:

They simply state that home chemistry is plain wrong, irresponsible and dangerous.


I am a retired professional chemical engineer and strongly disagree with these professional chemists. This is just a nanny state way of looking at life. They should be ashamed for taking a position that discourages inquiry into the sciences. People should be allowed to assess their own capabilities and risks.

You can find many examples in other activities and hobbies where the state does not meddle to the point of intimidation: skydiving, extreme whitewater kayaking, racecar driving, mountain climbing, etc. Even ordinary sports such as football, baseball, and horseback riding all entail a certain amount of risk to life and limb that the participant must evaluate for himself. But chemistry seems to be in a class by itself where others are deciding that the risks are not acceptable and cannot be evaluated by the participant.

People are allowed to work on their cars, use power tools, do welding, and make pottery with kilns and toxic glazes, in their own garages or backyards in residential areas. How is this so different from home chemistry?

I think the reason for this is rooted in the bad publicity that chemistry has gotten in recent years due to illegal drug making and terrorist bomb making. It didn't used to be this way. As has been eloquently expressed by Robert Bruce elsewhere on this forum a chemistry set was one of the most popular of Christmas presents as recently as the 1960's. Where were the nannies then? Why they were writing articles for Scientific American showing people how they could do sophisticated chemistry and other science projects economically at home.

[Edited on 18-8-2008 by Magpie]

Rosco Bodine - 18-8-2008 at 13:18

Yay :D

Academic snobbery occupies that same niche as the old axiom ......

Every crow thinks hers is the blackest.

vulture - 18-8-2008 at 13:32

Quote:

This has nothing to do with fear of drug-making or terrorism, they truly believe that most home chemists have good intents and do not want to do anything illegal, but they do not believe that home chemists can work safely in a residential area, without all the safety equipment and procedures, as one can expect in a serious, well-equipped lab.


I'm going to bet that they're either into QM, spectroscopy or physical chemistry. That is, the kind of "chemist" that gets goose bumps from an acetone spill.

I'm pursuing a Ph. D. so I consider myself a professional chemist and will likely join this organization if it proves to be worth its salt.

len1 - 18-8-2008 at 15:05

Funny if one considers that most reactions of the type discussed here were made in the 19th century with labs equiped far worse than a person of typical affluence can achieve today. Its not the safety measures, rather lack of sufficient knowledge that is most worrysome. If you show yourself well equiped in that area there should be no objections

not_important - 19-8-2008 at 01:43

Ah, Len, you are being sensible, you've no career potential as a government official or job-protecting "trained professional"

I'm reminded of a company that I worked at, where new management wanted to downgrade all engineers without degrees to be technicians. This idea lasted about 1 day, until the VP of engineering pointed out that 80% of the company's patents came from 3 non-degreed engineers, and it was the non-degreed types that had come up with all the truely new product concepts and prototypes.

It appears that German police don't like much of anything:
Quote:
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

BERLIN -- German police have confiscated what may be the world's fastest office chair. Police say officers happened on the contraption - the work of two inventive 17-year-olds - in the western town of Gross-Zimmern on Saturday.

The pair had added a lawnmower engine, bicycle brakes and a metal frame to the revolving chair - making into a go-kart-like vehicle.

Police said in a statement Monday the inventors insisted they had only tested it over a few meters, but witnesses reported seeing it on several streets.

They are being investigated over a variety of possible offenses, including defying insurance regulations, driving without a license and violating registration requirements.

Police did not say what top speed the chair could reach.

Groß-Zimmern? Hardly a big town, cops must have too little to do so they spend time shutting down creativity.

len1 - 19-8-2008 at 05:55

Yes, you are absolutely right. Most places I worked at my colleagues thought I came from another planet. Well I prefer that than the planet they come from.

The_Davster - 19-8-2008 at 07:44

Wow. Even in canada the gas powered couch was not confiscated. I have seen several.

woelen - 1-9-2008 at 12:38

Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
Lippert Lehrmittel is the name of the company, but also the family name. Their website is www.chemikalien-shop.de. The company is run by Janina Lippert, but customers relations is done by Rainer Bogatzki, who did this in a perfect way with good service.

This company was a great source for chemicals in small quantities. Here you could buy e.g. 100 ml of SOCl2 for just a few euros, also private persons. I also purchased some chemicals from this company in small quantities. But according to messages on Internet (whether it is true or not, it is unclear to me), the company had a second 'shadow company' which was selling GBL on a multitonne-scale, some customers needed to be supplied by tank-trucks or with drums of hundreds of liters. I hardly can believe this story, given the perfect service, quality and adherence to rules and regulations of the company. This really was a good company, also respecting all rules of the EU, and not some shady thing like the chemical closet.

[Edited on 11-7-08 by woelen]

Through private communication I was informed that indeed HUGE amounts of GBL were sold. This was not through the official webshop, but through some other channel.

What is really disturbing though is that thrustworthy people, who purchased something in small quantities from the webshop, were raided, while they did not have anything to do with the huge sales of GBL.

chief - 20-9-2008 at 04:48

My latest german experience is like that:
==> Politics and high bureaucrats say: Everything half as bad,
==> but Chem-Lobbyism ("Verband der chemischen Industrie", http://www.vci.de/, and others maybe too) "warn" the traders, not to sell certain things:

Eg. one can phone the "BundesOpiumStelle", in Bonn (http://www.bfarm.de/cln_029/DE/Home/startseite__node.html__n...),
and they will say: ==> "The certain thing is permitted".
--> Then you call the trader, and they tell you they don't want to sell, because they fear the bureaucrats, and because they have their order (warnings etc.) from the lobby, not to sell !

It seems, that at the head of the country there are still some people right in the head, but lower-rank-bureaucrats abuse their possibilities (they just brake the law, backed by the boss, knowing that to sue them is too expensive for most small businesses; and if sued successfully: they don't pay personally anyways ).

It's mainly a lobby-thing, I believe:
==> Separation of the customers from the industry is almost complete: Ordinary people just have to buy the water-thinned things from the drug-store, and give the 1000+ % profit to the few remaining companies
==> and now: Maybe just also separate the small businesses from their busines.

Without the lobby-ism of big chem-companies, they could by far not exist that well. The more they forbid simple things, the more important they get, so spending the money o the lobby-ism is just a good investment for them ..., and they just ride the wave and use the occasion (anti-terror etc.)

Besides most of the terrorism anyway, as from the newspapers, is made via military explosives: They have theyr sources in the armies etc., and viewed in that light: Maybe the one or other attack is just "planted" by some secret agency ... and it regularly was in the past, as 20th century-history tells ... .

So far ...

[Edited on 21-9-2008 by chief]

MagicJigPipe - 26-9-2008 at 14:01

Quote:

What is really disturbing though is that thrustworthy people, who purchased something in small quantities from the webshop, were raided, while they did not have anything to do with the huge sales of GBL.


We shouldn't make generalizations or assumptions. Just because he/they sold large amounts of GBL does not necessarily mean that they are untrustworthy.

Also, the people that purchased GBL are also not necessarily untrustworthy. Just because you make, sell or consume drugs does not mean you cannot be trusted. This is a common misconception.
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