Sciencemadness Discussion Board

GBL: 600 raids in Germany, Austria, Switzerland

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chloric1 - 26-9-2008 at 15:42

And this misconception arises from the decades long media propaganda that we have been bonbarded with. I have to admit, growing up in Reagan's "just say no" campaign has left me with numerous impressions of drug use.

Although some of the hard drugs have some destructive potential, the drug war is a method for the powers at be to
obtain control. Imagine for a moment, if the drugs where illegal but there was no enforcement of drug laws. The social and economic ramifications would be immense. Take Medellin, Colombia in 1980's for instance. Pablo Escobar was the effective ruler of that city becuase of cocaine. The international bankers could not handle someone like Escobar wielding that kind of power and influence. They took him out as a result.

They will never legalize these drugs as it would be less profitable for the few that are truly in control and it is also a way to keep hemp products off the common market.

Sauron - 26-9-2008 at 18:48

Only the news media characterized these raids as focusing on GBL and date rape.

It it quite apparent that the actual focus was not GBL. Not drugs.

It appears to have been certain energetics-related and toxic chemical-related compounds. In short, terrorism related, and the authorities are not disclosing their actual reasons.

My surmise is that they were acting on specific intelligence and the collateral damage was a smokescreen to obscure the nature of that intelligence as well as their sources and methods.

Polverone - 27-9-2008 at 09:40

Please do not turn this into a thread about drug legalization. It's an interesting and relevant topic without rehashing that for the Nth time.

chief - 28-9-2008 at 07:18

In the post immediately before this one I said not to turn this into a thread about drug legalization. Cut it out.

[Edited on 9-28-2008 by Polverone]

Jor - 28-10-2008 at 12:57

Can anyone translate for me what rk37355 is telling here:,11372,855,-Hausdurchsuchu...

He's talking about '3 monate'(3 months), and he posted 3 months after the raid. Was it 3 months prison? Why was he convicted if this is true?
If anyone has the time, translation would be great!

woelen - 28-10-2008 at 14:18

He has been in prison for almost 3 months (U-haft = voorarrest). They kept him in prison, just to be sure, and in the meantime they have done more research on him. Due to lack of proof he had to be released after almost 3 months.

I am not sure about the truth behind this story. I hardly can believe that someone is put in prison, just for buying 1 kilo of KNO3, 250 g of KClO4, 1 liter of ethanol anhydrous, 1 kilo of red P and 250 ml of ether. Of course, this combo of chems can make a big bang, but if there is no evidence at all that someone is using these for making a bomb, then someone cannot be imprisoned for such a long time.

I sometimes get the impression that some persons add stories to this particular thread on versuchschemie which make people more scared than is necessary. Have a look at the post count of the more hard to believe stories. Almost invariably these are first-time posts, including from this guy. Long-term members from versuchschemie also write about nasty things (such as that chems are taken away), but no one of them writes about violence directly aimed at them, or doors being rammed and people thrown on the ground and put in hand-cuffs without any further explanation.

chemoleo - 28-10-2008 at 17:24

On the other hand, the guy sounds quite sincere, gives dates for everything (inc his birthday), paragraphs of law and so on.
I also can hardly believe that someone is held for 3 months almost. But 'Untersuchungshaft' is not the same as prison by the way.

woelen - 29-10-2008 at 08:08

Well, you are right about the prison. In dutch we have a word, called "voorarrest", which also is not the same as being in prison, but what is the same is that the person cannot freely go where he wants, he is kept somewhere.

If this situation really is true, then it is very shocking and frightening. Being kept for almost 3 months is very severe. It's not only those 3 months, but you will loose your job (no company wants such an employee), you will get stigmatized by people in your neighbourhood and friends/family and many more nasty things. Such an event can really ruin your life, but at least it ruins your carreer.

the only things I can imagine are:
1) The person makes a spectacular story, but it is not true, or at most some aspects are true (such as the chems being taken away).
2) The person did not only buy these chemicals, but also showed other activities, which raised other red flags (e.g. being active on the wrong kind of forums, having suspicious contacts).

chief - 29-10-2008 at 15:31

The "versuchschemie"-forum is dubious another way too:
See ,
where I wrote what I mean.

With chemicals, it can't be _that_ uneasy: 3 months for a bit of KClO4 ??? I don't know ... (maybe for the one who sold it to a kid). Whats the whole story ?
Shall the person post the documents ! After 3 months in prison, he's not gonna care for privacy in this case any more. If he doesn't come up with something, I'm not gonna believe .

Besides: "Untersuchungshaft", as far as I know, is limited to 14 days in Germany.
[Edited on 29-10-2008 by chief]

[Edited on 29-10-2008 by chief]

oldtimer - 5-11-2008 at 09:18

A couple of comments:

"Untersuchungshaft" (pre - trial custody) can be up to 6 months in Germany, after that the case has to be heard by a judge - who can extend the detention. And it is not keeping a person "somewhere", but in jail.

Woelen's concerns about the mentioned person's credibility are, let's say. not out of the world. It is true that he did not appear with any posts before the story of his confinement, which is strange, however does not immediately imply that the story is false. In light of the political climate we unfortunately have in Germany, it might be true.

The main problem is, that Germany's explosive's law does not distinguish between a truckload of TNT, complete with fuses and detonators, and 2g of a KClO3/sugar mixture. Posession of both is punishable with multiyear imprisonment. Both is considered an "explosive". And normal LE personnell just lack the chemistry knowledge to assess the danger involved with any chemical. They have a list of so called "Sprengchemikalien" (roughly translated to "explosive related chemicals"), which was compiled by a lady cop who googled up any chemical that appeared anywhere on the net together with the words "explosive", "pyrotechnics", etc.). The list contains stuff as deadly as copper sulfate (no joke, I am not drunk - maybe later today).

Mail ordering a liter each of HCl, Acetone and H2O2 frome the same source is close to sure to get you a visit from LE at 6 in the morning, and if you tell them you are using those chemicals to etch printed circuits and use the acetone to remove the photoresist, they will disqualify this as a defensive lie, even if they raid a complete electronics lab and find the evidence of your allegation still bubbling on the desk. This happened several times.

chief: you disagree with some of Versuchschemie's webmastering. Why don't you discuss this with their web master? I am sure, Hartmut will be open to discussion and any critic, as long as it is expressed in a civilized way. Badmouthing someone on another forum, IMHO, is bad style.

Oldtimer, from Germany.

Jor - 5-11-2008 at 11:04

And this is the reason I do no pyrotechnics. It is forbidden by law. Doing so will give the police a reason to give you a visit. Adn ordering chems like KClO4 wich can be used only in pyro (I do not know any other use for it, it's highly insoluble), together with KNO3, red P, is just not very smart. The chances are very large that they will be used for pyrotechnics. And I agree with you all that small scale pyro has no real danger, but it's still illegal. If you want to enjoy chemistry in Europe just stay away from pyro alltogether.
I like to keep things legal. So no drugs and explosives at all.
I do inorganic chemistry on a small scale mainly, producing a minimal amount of waste, wich is neutralized/collected as much as possible, before disposing.
I also do some organic chemistry, but not much.
Finally I now have a fume hood almost done, and a flammables safety cabinet in 2 weeks. Now there is nothing I'm doing illegally. The only thing I could be convicted for is possible waste management. But my waste is minimal, because I neutralize everything. copper(II) is reacted with iron, and most other metals with aluminium, and dichromate with sulfite, and so on. Organic waste is mainly acetone/acetic acid/(m)ethanol/ether, wich is not bad for the environment in small amounts. Only DCM/CHCl3/CCl4 I do have, but I have not experimented with them yet (except DCM, but thats in paint stripper as well). I do not know how to dispose of it. But as off typing this post, I have an idea, I dispose of it as paint stripper waste :D

So I think I'm doing everything according to the law. Only thing Is that I'm in a residental area...

[Edited on 5-11-2008 by Jor]

Jor - 5-11-2008 at 15:29

Strange, my uni uses large HDPE tanks for halogenated solvent waste...

chief - 5-11-2008 at 16:34

chief: you disagree with some of Versuchschemie's webmastering. Why don't you discuss this with their web master? I am sure, Hartmut will be open to discussion and any critic, as long as it is expressed in a civilized way. Badmouthing someone on another forum, IMHO, is bad style.

I'm sorry: They were uncivilized, when they sniffed upon their users, they did cyber-stalking and cyber-voyeuring, nothing less.
And what do they here ? Probably so-called _backlinks_, nothing else. It's a kind of search-engine-optimization:
==> since this here is a good site (from the view of google),
==> also the sites, wehereto links from here go get a better google-rating,
==> therefrom a higher page-ranking .
Thats probably, as I suggest, the reason for their posting of the own links here. It's just a common website-marketing-technique ...

[Edited on 5-11-2008 by chief]

chief - 22-11-2008 at 08:21

For those in Germany, this is an interesting video:
A 70-minutes-speach of a lawyer upon how to behave during a search-situation !

Jor - 23-11-2008 at 10:20

Can anyone make a short summary of what he is saying and what one should do? I can hardly understand this language, I can only read it.

chief - 24-11-2008 at 05:44

It's anyhow about german law; that's gonna be different elsewhere. He just analyzes hot to deal with the police, what's possible and what mistakes to avoid.
Also he states: They cannot easily imprison someone longer than to the end of the following day (24 o'clock at the following day he has to be set free); and for that they need a reason.

Jor - 24-11-2008 at 06:04

Yes, but the law here in the Netherlands will probably match the German law to a great extent, so if you could make a small lost of the things he says you should NOT do, and the things you SHOULD do, I;d be very happy :)

woelen - 15-12-2008 at 00:19

The company which was raided in Germany is back in business again with a new and better-looking website:

With all that exposure to all kinds of official agencies this surprises me. Apparently they really are confident now that things are OK. A few things have changed though. There is no GBL on the list of available chemicals anymore and purchase of ANY solid oxidizer (like K2S2O8, KClO3, KNO3, KMnO4) requires ID and some kind of end-user declaration. On the other hand, stuff like red P, SOCl2, SO2Cl2 and H2SO4 still can be obtained without any paper work. So, the trouble really is in the area of oxidizers, not on other chemicals.

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