Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Iodine preparation for who needs it

Iodine preparation for who needs it

cobrasniper555 - 22-7-2008 at 16:37

Iodine has been added to the DEA list and may be hard to get a hold of. If you need iodine and would like to "make" it, here's a set of reactions that you can follow to prepare yourself a solution of iodine.

Here you go: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/06/weekend_project_hom...
(movie)

ScienceSquirrel - 22-7-2008 at 16:52

A video!

Roll on Tetrahedron Letters, 'You have been framed'

"And here is E J Corey performing the final step in the total synthesis
of taxane when the lab dog runs in and pulls his pants down..."

ScienceSquirrel - 22-7-2008 at 16:56

It could be presented by Jerry Springer or Oprah Winfrey, the salvation of American science is near!

[Edited on 23-7-2008 by ScienceSquirrel]

Picric-A - 25-7-2008 at 13:49

most people who want to use idoine know how to make it,
This video just educates meth cooks how to get hold of it :mad:

kilowatt - 25-7-2008 at 14:19

This is just asking for the DEA to ban KI too. Soon we may all have to resort to the destructive distillation of copious amounts of kelp.

vulture - 25-7-2008 at 15:00

Interestingly, the procedure is taken from Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments: All Lab, No Lecture by Robert Thompson, who was asking for help here some time ago.

You can find the thread here http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=7629&a...

[Edited on 26-7-2008 by vulture]

chloric1 - 25-7-2008 at 15:16

I have a problem here with this author's method. He uses hydrochloric acid as an acidulant for the iodide oxidiation. Sulfuric acid works MUCH better because sulfate DECREASES iodines solubility in water. In fact when I do it the filtrate is almost clear!

I realize that he trying to use readily available chemicals, but if you can get potassium iodide, you can certainly get battery electrolyte sulfuric acid.

@kilowatt-Do you think any DEA agent is clever enough to watch the video? LOL But seriously how many chemicals can they restrict before people get fed up anyways?

[Edited on 7/25/2008 by chloric1]

cobrasniper555 - 25-7-2008 at 17:15

Picric-A: I'm sure if you could find SciMad or RogueSci from a simple google search, those meth cooks can find how where to get what they need.

Kilowatt: I really don't think the DEA will restrict something that is vital to someone's safety near radiation. If you aren't near a nuclear plant, a hospital's pharmacy works just as well as I found a whole shelf selling potassium iodide.

MagicJigPipe - 25-7-2008 at 17:55

Quote:

But seriously how many chemicals can they restrict before people get fed up anyways?

You're joking, right?

Quote:

I really don't think the DEA will restrict something that is vital to someone's safety near radiation.

A joke as well, I'm sure. My prediction is that they will restrict KI except for in pills/extremely dilute solution. Have you ever tried to extract a usable amount of KI from "radiation pills"? I haven't. Mostly because there's (this is just a guess) a few hundred mgs per pill (probably less). Never underestimate the ability of an oppressive government to restrict something in the name of safety that actually does exactly the opposite.

I suppose a good paraphrase would be: don't underestimate the US govts ability to do whatever the hell they want and get full support from sheeple.

EDIT
I'm sorry guys. I didn't realize until now that this was under reagents aquisition instead of legal/societal issues. Feel free to delete this if you deem necessary.

[Edited on 7-25-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

kilowatt - 25-7-2008 at 17:59

I dunno, the city of New York wanted to ban geiger counters.

And you'd think if people were ever going to get fed up with restrictions on chemicals, iodine tincture would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. That stuff was a pretty popular antiseptic. If that didn't do it you'd think ephedrine/pseudophedrine would have for sure. I know plenty of people with allergies that are seriously hurt and outraged by that one. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter how fed up any citizens are, the government will keep banning more stuff cause no one's gonna stop them. :mad:

If they can restrict other medications so heavily why not KI?

[Edited on 25-7-2008 by kilowatt]

ScienceSquirrel - 25-7-2008 at 18:46

Where I live in Western Europe chemicals do not seem to be unreasonably restricted.
Obviously if you buy safrole or large amounts of 30% hydrogen peroxide you may start to draw unwanted attention to yourself.
But I would argue that hobby chemists should not be trying to make MDMA or large amounts of explosive materials anyway.

cobrasniper555 - 25-7-2008 at 19:19

That is true though. I believe the US can and will restrict anything they seem fit for destroying anything. There should be a "progress" report on how the US govt. is restring and a graph to determine when all of our rights will be lost.

Anyhow, a little off topic, I apologize. Have fun with the video, I hope some of you will like it.

MagicJigPipe: Don't worry. I think your opinion is well valued here at SciMad. It's the best I could hope for myself on a forum like such.

-jeffB - 25-7-2008 at 19:26

Quote:

Originally posted by chloric1
I have a problem here with this author's method. He uses hydrochloric acid as an acidulant for the iodide oxidiation. Sulfuric acid works MUCH better because sulfate DECREASES iodines solubility in water. In fact when I do it the filtrate is almost clear!

I had the impression that sulfuric acid, since it's an oxidizer itself, led to unwanted side products (sulfur in the iodine, or H2S in the air).

woelen - 26-7-2008 at 01:09

Sulphuric acid does not lead to unwanted side products if it is dilute. Only concentrated acid will produce other side products.

@ScienceSquirrel: Right now, you still can buy almost every chemical in the EU, but I'm afraid that will not be for long anymore. A lot of new laws are in preparation, and if these laws are implemented, then the situation in the EU will be much worse than the situation in the US.
- no oxidizers may be sold to the general public
- no strong mineral acids of decent concentration
- no compounds which are marked as T, T+ or Xn (combined with some R-sentences)
So, even stuff like nickel-salts, cobalt-salts and chromium-salts then will be prohibited.

There is another thread about this subject, so no need to respond here.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10805

Maya - 26-7-2008 at 04:07

<<< So, even stuff like nickel-salts, cobalt-salts and chromium-salts then will be prohibited >>>>

There goes the pottery/ ceramics and stained glass industry for the EU.................

Picric-A - 27-7-2008 at 15:10

i dont think laws like that will pass...
i mean anyone with a swimming pool (or not as the case may be...) can order swimming pool chems, eg. calcium hypochlorite, hydrogen peroxide, sodium bromide ect... and these can be used to make things like sodium chlorate ( Calcium chlorate + sdoium chloride--> sodium chlrate + calcium chloride)
people will find ways of replacing the chemicals that can no longer be purchased.

not_important - 28-7-2008 at 05:20

Strong hydrogen peroxide is becoming tightly controlled in Canada, no more swimming pool use and users of the concentrations over 3% will be regulated, registers, and must provide tracking data. From what Len has said iodine and iodides are under similar tight controls in Australia, possession of them has legal implications.

This leads to either products containing only a small amount of the chemical, 3% H2O2 or aquarium iodine sources at a few grams per liter, or in mixtures that are much less useful than the pure compound - pool and cleaning chemicals.

In the ceramics field there is a push towards frits for colouring, glasses including the elements that once would be added in the form of simple compounds. Like coloured glass for art use, manufactured by a small number of companies that are easily monitored, and the dilute solution of the element in the glass is hardly a convenient or economical source.

woelen - 28-7-2008 at 11:06

I think not_important is right. Pure chemicals will disappear and so-called convenience products will replace them. So, no pure HCl of decent concentration, but some concrete cleaner with lots of other stuff added, I also have seen the coloring powder for ceramics in all colors people want. So, a ceramics hobbyist does not need pure nickel salts etc., but only the coloring powders. For chemistry purposes this is absolutely fatal.

pantone159 - 28-7-2008 at 11:29

A lot of the reasons for pure consumer chemicals going away is probably business/economics rather than paranoia/fear of chemistry/etc.

Pure-ish compounds are low margin commodities, so it is hard to make a lot of money selling them. OTOH, make some branded cleaner or whatever, that has a similar role to a chemical compound, and it is higher margin, and more differentiated from competing products (at least on the surface).

cobrasniper555 - 28-7-2008 at 14:47

Well, couldn't basic acids be made such as hydrogen chloride through electrolysis of a saturated sodium chloride solution and dissolved into water? The lead chamber process or haber-bosch process. If it comes down to that, I'm sure that some people who really find a need for it will come across some materials or a group of local who believe in the same thing. Then a simple plant creating each chemical could be underground.

I highly doubt that even though the govt. restricts access to chemicals, that it will stop home chemists. I'm saying that if things do become more restricted, people will improvise (like we do today, just on a more "harsh" scale) or go into underground development to create and distribute those chemicals. I think things can only get harder but will never stop.

chloric1 - 29-7-2008 at 14:10

Quote:

Originally posted by cobrasniper555
Then a simple plant creating each chemical could be underground.

I highly doubt that even though the govt. restricts access to chemicals, that it will stop home chemists. I'm saying that if things do become more restricted, people will improvise (like we do today, just on a more "harsh" scale) or go into underground development to create and distribute those chemicals. I think things can only get harder but will never stop.

I think alot of a future "underground" movement but this would be extremely difficult to implement for a number of reasons:

1) The number of hard core home chemist is VERY small and spread out over the globe( as seen in this forum). . With state sponsored education this is by design of coarse.

2) The authorities have total free access to all communication venues and this makes communication almost impossible for would be underground agents.

3) With further restrictions, less chemical availability would make home chemistry not really worth the effort and the numbers of home chemist will decrease further.

4) Many home chemist have families, careers, futures and other responsibilites and may not be willing to deal with the increased risk of such a hobby.

The best solution as offered by other memebers here is simply relocate to the third world. This is especially an attractive options considering that you will be living in a better climate and be eating healthier food unless the third world country you are considering is totally starving or under strict dictatorship.

kilowatt - 29-7-2008 at 15:51

I can see the restrictions and the disappearance of basic reagents from the consumer market largely taking home chemistry a step back, making everything slower and more tedious, rather than putting an end to it. For example instead of doing an experiment or reaction that uses sulfuric acid, home chemists of the future will need to make their own sulfuric acid starting from very rudimentary and inconspicuous materials like gypsum and charcoal (even garden sulfur will be unlikely to exist as it does today, being replaced with some proprietary fertilizer blend). Such a thing is quite a project in itself and I can see it driving many, but not all, home chemists away.

Back on the subject of iodine, home chemists of the future will likely be forced to turn to either black market sources, or natural sources, since ALL iodine compounds are likely to become highly restricted and unobtainable to common folk. For example several tons of dried kelp could be burned in a closed furnace and the smoke condensed and processed to obtain several kilograms of iodine.

With the decreased demand by private individuals, I can see glassware becoming extremely scarce too, if not flat out illegal as it already is in Texas. Home chemists will have to become glass blowers, and this in itself may become more challenging as fuel and oxygen cylinders for torches may become more regulated as well.

During the dark ages, science and chemistry (alchemy) was highly restricted and punishable by death as heresy, unless you happened to be the king's personal alchemist (state sponsored). Yet many private alchemists continued their pursuits despite the risk, obtaining reagents from natural sources or underground trade. This is not too unlike the situation we are heading toward with chemistry now.

[Edited on 29-7-2008 by kilowatt]

chloric1 - 30-7-2008 at 02:32

Well, and not to mention the news I was reading about Iran planning to detonate a nuclear bomb miles ABOVE the US to generate a giant EMP pulse taking us back to the bygone days of the early 19th century. It is plausible something like this could happen although I wonder if this is propanganda to strike more fear in us for the sake of the "war on terra"

I doubt EVERY iodine compound will be regulated. I am sure there is something we can oxidize to obtain iodine. I mean iodine is an antiseptic Well will see for sure in the future.

-jeffB - 30-7-2008 at 04:52

Quote:

Originally posted by chloric1
Well, and not to mention the news I was reading about Iran planning to detonate a nuclear bomb miles ABOVE the US to generate a giant EMP pulse taking us back to the bygone days of the early 19th century. It is plausible something like this could happen although I wonder if this is propanganda to strike more fear in us for the sake of the "war on terra"

This is actually not plausible. A bomb small enough to fit on an Iranian vehicle, launched to a height achievable by an Iranian vehicle, wouldn't make enough of a pulse to "take out" more than a city. "Taking out" the entire US would take an enormous bomb, detonated at orbital altitudes, neither of which are really within Iranian reach.

EMP is bad, but the fearmongers are <i>vastly</i> exaggerating the risk.

not_important - 30-7-2008 at 05:50

Quote:

Originally posted by kilowatt... For example several tons of dried kelp could be burned in a closed furnace and the smoke condensed and processed to obtain several kilograms of iodine.
...

Not a very good way to get iodine. Dried kelps are charred by incomplete burning at the lowest possible temperature, and the ashes worked up for their iodide content. There is also a purely wet process that does not heat the kelp at all.

You need to have the proper types of seaweeds, others have a much lower iodine content. Note that some districts prohibit unlicensed harvesting of seaweeds, to prevent damage to the littoral zone and associate life.

Quote:

Originally posted by chloric1...
I doubt EVERY iodine compound will be regulated. I am sure there is something we can oxidize to obtain iodine. I mean iodine is an antiseptic

I believe that in places such regulation and banning has already been done. Perhaps an Australian member could comment.

Simple tracking, requiring every purchase of iodine-based antiseptics, could keep yearly purchases below a couple of grams per household. The US has done this with pseudoephedrine, tracking sales of that with such humorous results as drug rids on families where several family members independently restocked the household supply on the same day - thereby exceeding the monthly limit.

kilowatt - 30-7-2008 at 10:24

Quote:

I doubt EVERY iodine compound will be regulated. I am sure there is something we can oxidize to obtain iodine. I mean iodine is an antiseptic

A very highly regulated antiseptic... Well you can still buy a tiny bottle of 1% povidone iodine, at least for now, but that doesn't do us much good. For example every possible plutonium compound is regulated on the basis that it simply contains plutonium, so why can't iodine be similar? If it contains iodine, it's gonna be illegal to have (at least without the proper permits), regardless of what it is.

Who would have ever thought 20 years ago that such a common and inconspicuous element such as iodine would be so heavily regulated? It was considered a staple of every first aid kit, medicine cabinet, camping supplies, etc. Perhaps in the future other compounds and elements that we take for granted will be regulated or banned. I think one we will very likely see this happen to soon is urea. Urea is an easy source of ammonia, and it can be used to make the explosive urea nitrate. Sodium bicarbonate is another that some law makers have already begun targeting, even though it is a staple of every kitchen. In the state of Missouri they already tried once (and fortunately failed) to move it behind the counter and require ID and to purchase. A couple years ago I was able to purchase 5lb jugs of KMnO4 at a water treatment shop, but who knows how much longer it will be available if it even still is. For whatever unforseen reasons, perhaps even KCl (as salt substitute, water softener, or ice melt salt), CaCl2, and equally innocuous chemicals will become regulated. Coal and charcoal perhaps too. If it can happen to iodine and ammonia and ammonium nitrate surely it can happen to them. All that has to happen is for law makers to catch on that a chemical can, either hypothetically or in practice by some roundabout way, be used to make a drug or explosive or a helper chemical used in the preparation of such. Almost every conceivable element or compound falls under this category.

chloric1 - 31-7-2008 at 02:24

I sincerely hope that it does not get so bad that even KCl is regulated. But as a rule, when I government starts restriscting things, the list just expands. It all started in the 1970's with anthranilic acid and a handful of other chemicals only to be followed by much more. In a way its very bad now because it seems like its better to stockpile and not use what you buy. So we all have heavy stashes of reagents we don't use so we don't lose and in the end it is like we never had them to begin with

I have a red substance that I purchased just after it went restrcted and now I feel compelled to keep it because of its enourmous monetary value. I can probably trade it for a distillation setup and then some. What will I do?!

Ritter - 2-8-2008 at 13:19

Iodine is available still on eBay, item #170246136775, about $55 for 100 gm. You can also find NaI & KI there.

[Edited on 2-8-2008 by Ritter]

16MillionEyes - 10-8-2008 at 19:10

"Well, and not to mention the news I was reading about Iran planning to detonate a nuclear bomb miles ABOVE the US to generate a giant EMP pulse taking us back to the bygone days of the early 19th century."

And you honestly believe that? Iran doesn't even have nuclear weapons and now they say that they're planning to blow it above U.S' airspace? Hahaha. Mass discommunication media is going beyond cynic nowadays...What paper/source was this?

Sorry for the unrelated rant but it seems curious how outlandish reports like that actually get through the public.

On a more related note, pure NaOH is hard to get (even impossible) in hardware stores so what Thompson claimed as being "unregulated" is not all that true. Does anybody remember Red Devil (U.S)? It was pushed out of the market by restrictions, not low sales. Day by day all the chemistry that will be eventually allowed to be done at home is egg boiling--with amazing protein denaturation! Woah kids, look at the boiled egg, surely this will make you pursue a chemistry career.

joeflsts - 10-8-2008 at 19:20

Quote:

Originally posted by __________
"Well, and not to mention the news I was reading about Iran planning to detonate a nuclear bomb miles ABOVE the US to generate a giant EMP pulse taking us back to the bygone days of the early 19th century."

And you honestly believe that? Iran doesn't even have nuclear weapons and now they say that they're planning to blow it above U.S' airspace? Hahaha. Mass discommunication media is going beyond cynic nowadays...What paper/source was this?

Sorry for the unrelated rant but it seems curious how outlandish reports like that actually get through the public.

On a more related note, pure NaOH is hard to get (even impossible) in hardware stores so what Thompson claimed as being "unregulated" is not all that true. Does anybody remember Red Devil (U.S)? It was pushed out of the market by restrictions, not low sales. Day by day all the chemistry that will be eventually allowed to be done at home is egg boiling--with amazing protein denaturation! Woah kids, look at the boiled egg, surely this will make you pursue a chemistry career.

And yet, ACE Hardware simply replaced Red Devil with another brand of pure NaOH. Those restrictions apparently only applied to the manufacturer of Red Devil.

There is no question that buying chemicals is getting harder. It is YOUR responsibility to help hobbiests by giving them factual information. If not why bother to post?

Joe

16MillionEyes - 29-9-2008 at 17:32

Quote:

There is no question that buying chemicals is getting harder. It is YOUR responsibility to help hobbiests by giving them factual information. If not why bother to post?

I don't think I understand what you mean. Are you telling me to give factual information and if it's me, how am I giving false information? Red Devil was pulled out of the market due to regulations (I read this somewhere), whether other products selling pure NaOH are available OTC that's a different thing, in fact, I own a bottle of ACE's NaOH which I found out of pure luck.