Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Home chemist raided in MA, lab seized.

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EllisDTripp - 12-8-2008 at 10:19

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/08/home_science_under_...
Quote:
The Worcester Telegram & Gazette reports that Victor Deeb, a retired chemist who lives in Marlboro, has finally been allowed to return to his Fremont Street home, after Massachusetts authorities spent three days ransacking his basement lab and making off with its contents.
Deeb is not accused of making methamphetamine or other illegal drugs. He's not accused of aiding terrorists, synthesizing explosives, nor even of making illegal fireworks. Deeb fell afoul of the Massachusetts authorities for ... doing experiments.

Authorities concede that the chemicals found in Deeb's basement lab were no more hazardous than typical household cleaning products. Despite that, authorities confiscated “all potentially hazardous chemicals” (which is to say the chemicals in Deeb's lab) from his home, and called in a hazardous waste cleanup company to test the chemicals and clean up the lab.

Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for Marlboro, stated, “I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.”

Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: "Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down."

In effect, the Massachusetts authorities have invaded Deeb's lab, apparently without a warrant, and stolen his property. Deeb, presumably under at least the implied threat of further action, has not objected to the warrantless search and the confiscation of his property. Or perhaps he's just biding his time. It appears that Deeb has grounds for a nice juicy lawsuit here.

There's a lesson here for all of us who do science at home, whether we're home schoolers or DIY science enthusiasts. The government is not our friend. Massachusetts is the prototypical nanny state, of course, but the other 49 aren't far behind. Any of us could one day find the police at the door, demanding to search our home labs. If that day comes, I will demand a warrant and waste no time getting my attorney on the phone.

There's a word for what just happened in Massachusetts. Tyranny. And it's something none of us should tolerate.


Original article here:

http://www.telegram.com/article/20080809/NEWS/808090323/1008...




[Edited on 12-8-2008 by chemoleo]

Sauron - 12-8-2008 at 11:18

Deeb should consult a good attorney. He may well have a good lawsuit.

chemoleo - 12-8-2008 at 12:13

Quote:
There are regulations about how much you’re supposed to have, how it’s detained, how it’s disposed of.”

Mr. Deeb’s home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties.


Sadly that's why he won't have a case.

The_Davster - 12-8-2008 at 12:22

Quote:

“I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.”



Baaaa...Baaaa

"I don't know what you are doing, but I am too much of a moron to really find out, but it annoys me enough to dig through regulation after regulation till we find something we can charge you with and at the very least never see your hobby materials again"

:mad::mad::mad:

Sauron - 12-8-2008 at 12:31

The laws have to be specifically about discrete chemicals. There are laws about pesticides for example. There are laws about explosives. There are laws about chemicals in the government list of toxic substances.

There aren't any laws that just say "chemicals"

The "code enforcement" dweebs may well have overstepped their bounds. Despite what they may think they DO have bounds. Deeb is entitled to due process. If he was deprived of his property without due process, then he does have a case. There's no such thing as "potentially hazardous" substances. There are hazardous substances as defined by law, and there's everything else.

On the other hand, Massachusets used to burn witches and obtain their confessions by torture.

Practices they imported from England.

Six months ago a lot of people would have probably opined that Steve Hatfill "had no case" but here we are, the DOJ ro;;ed over and settled out of court and Hatfill is $5.8 Million to the better. Lee attorney's fees, of course.

So I am not prepared to say Deeb has no case. No more than I am prepared to say he does. I am just saying he MIGHT, and he damned well ought to find out, because the state is going to damn well send him a five figured bill for hgazmat remediation and consulting. and the hazmat firm is probably operated by the brother in law of that bitch of a code enforcer.

[Edited on 13-8-2008 by Sauron]

Rosco Bodine - 12-8-2008 at 12:33

Filing suit against the government is pretty much a joke.
It's like the chickens trying to sue the fox for raiding the henhouse, which of course the fox is "entrusted" and assigned the responsibility of guarding, a "duty" of course where the fox is always presumed (as a matter of law) to be acting in good faith, and therefore is held harmless and immune against any and all claims to the contrary by
any inadvertantly mauled or accidentally eaten chickens:D

Seeing how that works is precisely why there is some merit to the welcoming of regulators and revenuers of various stripe, to shoot first and ask questions later.

Sauron - 12-8-2008 at 12:39

Tell it to Steve Hatfill, Rosco. Or do you really think the state of Massachusets is a tougher nit to crack than the US Department of Justice?

Rosco Bodine - 12-8-2008 at 12:46

The federal government is different. Try suing a state.
Try getting anywhere with a state. And actually it is surprising that Hatfill got what he did. It was probably
because he had enough dirt on some people to bury them and they wanted him to go away quietly for their own self interest.....otherwise he would have ben found dead
as an apparent suicide, just like the other scapegoat.

Sauron - 12-8-2008 at 12:54

Oh, here we go with the conspiracy theories. We can always count on Rosco to provide sweet reason and sanity.

Last month, Rosco, I recall you were advocating lethal force against bureaucrats.

JohnWW - 12-8-2008 at 15:22

Whatever happened to the Fourth Amendment? Victor Deeb could sue the Massachusetts $tate Pigs for millions of dollar$ under that, and for an injunction for the return of his property. Or perhaps the Massachusetts $tate Dept. of (In)justice does not recognize the Bill Of Rights? And whoever "ratted" on Victor Deeb to the Pigs, - whose identity is very likely to be suspected by Deeb - could also be sued for defamation for his trouble. BTW, I thought that Massachusetts was supposed to be one of the most liberal $tates, but it looks as if their Bu$h-worshiping Pigs have other ideas.
P.S. Those sheep look as if they might be on the Canterbury Plains, with the Southern Alps behind them, in New Zealand's South Island.

[Edited on 13-8-08 by JohnWW]

chloric1 - 12-8-2008 at 15:33

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Last month, Rosco, I recall you were advocating lethal force against bureaucrats.


Thats right Sauron we in Amerika live in Republic with a repre$entative government. They repre$ent $pecial intere$t$$. There is no need for any con$piracy theories. :D:P

[Edited on 8/12/2008 by chloric1]

joeflsts - 12-8-2008 at 15:44

Quote:
Originally posted by chloric1
Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Last month, Rosco, I recall you were advocating lethal force against bureaucrats.


Thats right Sauron we in Amerika live in Republic with a repre$entative government. They repre$ent $pecial intere$t$$. There is no need for any con$piracy theories. :D:P

[Edited on 8/12/2008 by chloric1]


This has very little to do with special interests. It has very much to do with living in a nanny state, created by people that need their asses wiped.

Joe

BromicAcid - 12-8-2008 at 15:47

I have written a letter to Ms. Wilderman, won't do any good but it makes me feel better. The address is readily avalible online through the site for Marlborough, MA.

chloric1 - 12-8-2008 at 15:48

Yes Joe I know I was just messing with Sauron. I hate living in paranoia and I hope the wiper AND wipees are WIPED off the face of the earth!

chemoleo - 12-8-2008 at 16:15

Bromic would you mind pasting here what you sent to her?

Very commendable!!

Rosco Bodine - 12-8-2008 at 16:34

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Oh, here we go with the conspiracy theories. We can always count on Rosco to provide sweet reason and sanity.


Maybe I'm the fourth and unseen, usually silent member
of that little known subversive group known collectively as
"the *not* alone gunmen" or the "sons of guns":D
Quote:

Last month, Rosco, I recall you were advocating lethal force against bureaucrats.

I believe most all bureaucrats suffer from a chronic dermatological condition, caused by a deficiency of tar and feathers, for which a liberal application of tar and feathers is the long proven and time tested cure. Sterner measures are medically indicated for those cases so severe as to not be responsive to such gentle treatments.

Ramiel - 12-8-2008 at 16:43

This case would seem to be a good one to make an issue out of: here we have an upstanding (we hope) gentleman homeowner who has been patenting his scientific discoveries. This means that it was above board, and that home experimentation isn't irrelevant, or just a hobby.

I find it very surprising that they didn't manage to find a single hazardous substance, poison or mercury containing material! lucky guy I guess.

p.s. If we could have just one thread about this kind of thing with no dollar-sign S', that'd be just great, guys.

BromicAcid - 12-8-2008 at 17:13

Chemoleo, I couldn't tell you the exact contents of my letter because I already have it in the post box. I wrote it by hand in my best writing and it's only one page. I took a strong tone. I started out by saying that my letter was regarding the upsetting course of action taken against Victor Deeb. I went on to say that the chemistry industry and chemists in general are suffering from chemophobia.

I asked that she drop any prejudice she had against chemistry and approach the situation fairly (I realized that I didn't know the full extent of her involvement in everything so I kept things general). Finally I tried to put things in Mr. Deeb's prespective, that he had likely tried to conform to all the regulations and laws that he was aware of (since he didn't have any illegal chemicals and they were hard pressed to find something to charge him with) and that he was doing something that he loved and something that was at one time common place and normal and now his passion for the subject and other parts of his life might be ruined due to some person's ignorance.

I signed it with a large signature and put my address on the front of the envelope in case she feels the need for further correspondence.

chloric1 - 12-8-2008 at 17:19

So this chemist was working in his basement. I have to wonder who tipped off the fuzz anyways? What was the trigger? I doubt this guy was harming anyone or damaging property. Why the hell do people feel the need to narc out otherwise innocent citizens.

I sincerely hope this gentleman does not quit his endeavors after the dust settles. There are many points here that we all need to know about and learn from.

[Edited on 8/12/2008 by chloric1]

BromicAcid - 12-8-2008 at 17:27

The news article says there was a fire on the floor above where the chemicals were stored due to an air conditioner and that the fire fighters were probably the ones that tipped off the authorities.

chloric1 - 12-8-2008 at 17:53

Aha! Firefighters and utility meter readers. Got to always consider them. Trust nobody. I think a prudent measure for home chemist is to somehow store chems offsite. It would be a pain in the ass for me as well as many of you but I am actually more worried about the wrong eyes seeing the chems than the chems burning my house down.

Sauron - 12-8-2008 at 18:22

Sounds the the "code" in question was the fire code. The authorities in question very likely the Fire Marshal's office or whatever it is called in the Commonweal of Mass. If so the issue probably turns on whether or not he had "excessive" amounts of flammable solvents etc.

People who would not hesitate to store 5-10 gallons of petrol in their garage or basement freak out over a liter of hexane.

not_important - 12-8-2008 at 21:55

Garage - contents of vehicle fuel tanks, propane in barbecue grill tank, butane tanks for camping stoves and the like. With a couple of SUVs that's well over 50 gallons.

S.C. Wack - 13-8-2008 at 00:11

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Sounds the the "code" in question was the fire code...
People who would not hesitate to store 5-10 gallons of petrol in their garage or basement freak out over a liter of hexane.


I think not, since they talk about zoning. Here it would very much be a zoning violation to store chemicals in your house...if you were going to sell them. If they get him to say that the intent of his research was give a product that would be sold, they can probably excuse themselves in court with that. The NYC case involving confiscation and destruction of pool chemicals mentioned here recently was definitely in this category since the guy apparently admitted that his chemicals were for a fairly large scale retail business.

The obvious comparison (which hasn't been mentioned anywhere that I've seen) is home bars. No one is talking about the dangers of a basement bar well stocked with many glass bottles of 76 proof alcohol...which is pretty flammable. I've never heard of one going up. No one who talks about chemical danger also mentions that the guy is apparently a real chemist...who is more qualified to do chemistry if not him?

If you look at this news page, the guy is a short fat old guy with a cane. If that had been my house in MA and it was me that they found, but everything else was still the same, I'd probably still be in jail right now for intent to manufacture something or other.

[Edited on 13-8-2008 by S.C. Wack]

Sauron - 13-8-2008 at 02:11

Ha. I feel sorrier for him already. Because I'm a short fat old guy with a cane.

Zoning is a city or at most county matter not state.

joeflsts - 13-8-2008 at 06:57

Quote:
Originally posted by chloric1
Yes Joe I know I was just messing with Sauron. I hate living in paranoia and I hope the wiper AND wipees are WIPED off the face of the earth!


Understand. We created the environment we live in. On this forum it is often posted that the government is out to get us - which I think they are - but it is because we ask for it.

So we've learned that it might have been reported by the fire department that he had a bunch of chemicals in his house.

If they did not report it and he killed someone they are open to a lawsuit.

We know that the chemicals were harmless, but only after they were examined by "professionals". The problem is that a fireman doesn't have the experience to determine what is a safe & non-safe lab chemical.

Ultimately it boils down to money and not power. Many on here want to believe that the government is out to get them - which they are. But most of the time it isn't about power it is about emotion. The government is scared to death that they will get blamed in a court of law. Look at what happened in New Orleans - a Hurricane hit, it took out most of the city services, people didn't flea as instructed and ultimately it was the governments fault. It cost tax payers BILLIONS.

I don't think we have big brother - I think we have big lawyer in charge of this country.

Joe

chromium - 13-8-2008 at 08:02

It's not as much about money as about making society as safe as possible even if this costs a lot of freedoms. Perfect safety is impossible and every addittional step towards it costs some additional freedoms. Safest possible life would probably be in kind of special prison where almost no action is allowed but all biological needs are perfectly satisfied.

Most voters do not care of freedoms, they just want safety. This is why they think that they should have officials who even in case of unexpected natural disasters have no right to make any errors and this is why our society wants that firemen (or chemical distributors) should report if they see something that could be criminal. Governement wants to turn all officials (or better yet, all citizens) to unpayd spies who help to make controll over all others. Most licences are dependent of ones agreement to report what he sees. This is presented as anticipating possible disasters and building safer society - which most of voters will find desirable.

Politicians generally do not have point of views of their own (or if they have then only for himself, not for general public). They do anything which can help them to be more popular - "For Safer Future" is slogan which always works.

@Bromic acid, I think its great that you sent letter. Even if this does not change slightest thing then it still is more usefull than this whole thread (including my post).


[Edited on 13-8-2008 by chromium]

len1 - 13-8-2008 at 14:28

Quote:
Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for Marlboro, stated, “I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.”


I didnt know there was a list "approved home occupations". Whats the point of having law books with really fine detail if they miss out on the really coarse detail such as the existence of this list? Or perhaps theres no list, and its just in Pamela head? In that case would she like to share it with the rest of the world because our legal system prides itself on being open and upfront. I suspect that wont happen, 'it doesnt look right' for a free-loving society to have such a list. Instead, she'll find a proxy - something on the law books they can charge him with instead of what really made them take this action - which is not in the law books. Kind of makes you respect dictatorships- at least they honest.

This whole thing is new of course - some younger readers might not know. In the 70s I had a chemistry lab much like a lot of people here, stocking chemicals mainly. I had 500gms of I2, a bottle full of mercury, 500gms NaN3, to name a few. It never in the least occurred to me the police might be interested in it (as they would be nowadays). I showed it to all my school friends. No one had the slightest thoughts of 'this is dangereous to the community' come to mind. Because we all lived happily, and the crime rate was a lot lower. This is how things have changed. Nowadays my home lab looks a lot different. I have none of the above, instead it looks like very well stocked shelves from the hardware store, garden fertilizers, solvents and pottery supplies. The most interesting thing is that I am doing real chemistry with it. So while from a philosophical and moral viewpoint Im outraged by the changes in society its a kind of blessing in reality.

chloric1 - 13-8-2008 at 15:51

len1 you are absolutely right. I am now starting to see the brighter side of this social delema. Vulture made a simular point just a few days ago but what thread I don't recall right now. I think at I should try pointing out the positive side of all these chemical restrictions. We all become better chemists! Some of us may get more into glassworking as well. But with all of us having to make so many of our supplies, some trading will be beneficial for sure. It natural for skilled tradesmen to speciallize so one person is going to be REALLY good with thermite, another making chlorate, another modifying pyrex etc etc. So trading could help others deficient in certain areas obtain items for study.

Aside from that pointing out that having to make your own reagents makes you a better chemist will help the newbies tremendously and may inspire them to study the sciences instead of turning away.

12AX7 - 13-8-2008 at 16:01

Quote:
Originally posted by chloric1
Aside from that pointing out that having to make your own reagents makes you a better chemist will help the newbies tremendously and may inspire them to study the sciences instead of turning away.


And in addition to that, many of the simple compounds that aren't so available make for interesting and simple preparations. Benzaldahyde, for instance, is reasonably easy to prepare from appropriate reagents (some of which may themselves need to be prepared, such as oxidizers).

Tim

clean up your mess

Dr.3vil - 13-8-2008 at 18:43

"Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home. "

"Vessels of chemicals were all over the furniture and the floor, authorities said. "

I'll second the motion that the fire was the tip off. another point is that perhaps this could have been avoided if he had just been neat about things. if it looks like a meth lab, and it smells like a meth lab....it probably is.

Keep chemicals in a closed closet or cabinet. keep your glassware stored, etc...hell go on Craig's list and get some metal or plastic storage bins or what not that someone is throwing away. Point being if you lab looks like a workshop, then people will think it is a workshop. mix in some power tools and scrap lumber and no one will give it a second thought.

franklyn - 13-8-2008 at 19:07

Here is the ruling on a real case of confiscation. The common objection in both cases
seems to be one of what is deemed by authorities to be safe proper storage. In the
interest of public safety your personal rights aren't worth a damn.

http://www.nycourts.gov/library/queens/PDF_files/nyc-15409.p...

I had also posted this here _
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9137&a...

.

BromicAcid - 13-8-2008 at 19:16

Dr.3vil, 1500 is just a number and it tells us nothing of the scale of his setup. A medium sized box can easily contain 1500 vials all on its own. And as for the 'vessels of chemicals all over the furniture and the floor' that just sounds like a blatant over exaggeration. Likely all over tables and such, I know nothing more than you on the subject but even a fire fighter or a first responder will often feel the need to sensationalize something.

Dr.3vil - 13-8-2008 at 19:34

Quote:
Originally posted by BromicAcid
Dr.3vil, 1500 is just a number and it tells us nothing of the scale of his setup. A medium sized box can easily contain 1500 vials all on its own. And as for the 'vessels of chemicals all over the furniture and the floor' that just sounds like a blatant over exaggeration. Likely all over tables and such, I know nothing more than you on the subject but even a fire fighter or a first responder will often feel the need to sensationalize something.


a picture would be worth....say 1500 words? I understand where your coming from but please do not discount the notion that someone saw something that was out of the ordinary. If there is any sensationalism here, it would be on the part of officials attempting to demonstrate that they are "looking out for the public's well being".

Magpie - 13-8-2008 at 19:42

Quote:

Keep chemicals in a closed closet or cabinet. keep your glassware stored, etc...hell go on Craig's list and get some metal or plastic storage bins or what not that someone is throwing away. Point being if you lab looks like a workshop, then people will think it is a workshop. mix in some power tools and scrap lumber and no one will give it a second thought.


Dr. 3vil, this is very good advice based on an incident in my own lab:

I had the outside door to my lab open one day and was transferring 100g of PbO from a large plastic container to a bottle on my work bench. All of a sudden a neighbor lady walked in that open door looking for my wife. Because all my reagents and glassware are in cabinets (which have no windows) she saw nothing but my drill press, my work bench with lots of scrap lumber, the side of my aluminum hood, and a peg-board rack holding all my small tools. She looked right at me and my whole lab and never said a thing. To her I'm sure she just saw an ordinary work shop.

MagicJigPipe - 13-8-2008 at 20:36

Pretty soon even "normal" workshops will be in danger. How can we be safe when people are allowed to have chainsaws, circular saws, nailguns and arc welders!? Not to mention air compressors that can "propel SUPER DEADLY TOXIC DENSE projectiles at over 1000000 miles per hour"!!!!

Stupid people (majority in the US it seems) + vehicles is more of a threat to public safety than all home science hobbies combined, IMO. Let's get rid of those.... Oh wait, Johnny Breadwinner needs that as a status symbol, nevermind.

Twospoons - 13-8-2008 at 20:47

It really is just a witch hunt, when put into perspective next to 100,000 alcohol related deaths per annum, and 400,000 tobacco related deaths per annum. And thats just in the USA. (stats from 10 second google search :D )

len1 - 13-8-2008 at 20:47

I think some people might have missed the point that people too ignorant to know when a situation poses no public safety risk, will also be too ignorant to recognise when it does.

This really is a loss for everyone: trampling of human rights, and no increased security

[Edited on 14-8-2008 by len1]

The_Davster - 13-8-2008 at 20:49

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr.3vil
if it looks like a meth lab, and it smells like a meth lab....it probably is.



No.

How many people here when starting their hobby only used consumer products? The same ones that meth task forces distribute to their employees on simplistic pamphlets in picture format with "if you see these, you likely have a meth lab". Police officers are not scientists, they get the info they are fed, and its relatively simple to match your toluene, HCl and lye to the picture they are given. Your OTC solvents, acids, and bases suddenly become "omg meth lab to them".

octave - 13-8-2008 at 20:58

Quote:
Originally posted by The_Davster

No.

How many people here when starting their hobby only used consumer products? The same ones that meth task forces distribute to their employees on simplistic pamphlets in picture format with "if you see these, you likely have a meth lab". Police officers are not scientists, they get the info they are fed, and its relatively simple to match your toluene, HCl and lye to the picture they are given. Your OTC solvents, acids, and bases suddenly become "omg meth lab to them".


This is why you should transfer every chemical to a new "scientifically labeled" container (E.G: buy a roll of unlabeled NFPA 704 labels and use them religiously).A quote I made myself and keep dearly to my heart is "If you don't make drugs, don't make it look like you do".

ruling on a real case of confiscation

bigbigbeaker - 13-8-2008 at 21:11

When I read the ruling I wonder what this idiot guy was trying to prove. On May 18, 2 DERTA employees appear and say we have had an anonymous complaint, may we have a look. The man says yes. Why didn't he say,"No. "Its my house. You can't come in without a court order based on an oath or affirmation describing the places to be searched and the items to be seized." And they will go away. They might come back but in the meantime he could clean the place up. Not him. He got more chemicals. He now has has 375 pounds of sodium hypochlorite, 10 lbs of H2SO4 and other things. Then he tells them, "Please look in this other place that you didn't know about. I've got more neat chemicals there". So they find 228 gallons of sodium hypochlorite, and alot of other stuff. So they tell him on June 1 he can't store the stuff in a residential area. They come back June 22 and he has done nothing to make it look safer. Then on July 6 another phone call, so DERTA comes back and finds the same things plus now the guy has scored a ton of HCL. Then they return in September and the guy now has Cu2SO4, algacide, Xylene, Alu sulfate, Na thoisulfate and a bunch of other chemicals. Now his property gets seized. The moral of the story is that when a person has a completely flagrant disregard for the safety of his neighbors, when he flaunts improper storage of large amounts of oxidizers, when he thumbs his nose in the face of investigators and does absolutely everything else wrong that you could do, when each time they inspect the situation has gotten worse, then the person's chemicals can get seized. This ass deserves it. He makes the home chemists life tough. And he is an honest to danger to the citizens of his neighborhood.

MagicJigPipe - 13-8-2008 at 21:30

Quote:
This is why you should transfer every chemical to a new "scientifically labeled" container (E.G: buy a roll of unlabeled NFPA 704 labels and use them religiously).A quote I made myself and keep dearly to my heart is "If you don't make drugs, don't make it look like you do".


This may help in certain limited situations but if the authorities search your lab, I don't think it'd be worth a hill of beans. It might even seem worse to the super-ignorant. "He was running an advanced meth lab with reagents so professional and pure that it produces meth so pure that toddlers will get high just looking at it".

But c'mon guys, all this oppression is FOR THE CHILDREN!

[Edited on 8-13-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

octave - 14-8-2008 at 00:08

I have a question. Are these all lab raids and sudden attacks upon the home chemists a result of ignorance or recognition? Both have an extremely puerile nature which most law enforcement is known for.However it seems(to me at least) that these sentinels of peace are trying to solidify "the peoples" trust in them by using home chemistry as a scapegoat, as the common man knows nothing of chemistry except what is on the news: methamphetamine labs being busted. So do y'all think the police are acting out of ignorance or are they acting under the guise of meth lab busters. I believe it is truly a melange of both.

12AX7 - 14-8-2008 at 00:17

This doesn't sound like it has anything to do with a meth lab, and there was no insinuation of that in the article.

Tim

chloric1 - 14-8-2008 at 02:23

I myself believe it an issue of housekeeping and organization. The guy may be a chemist but having chems whereever does not look professional. And the quantities he was storing:o If you have the money to buy chemicals by the drum you have the money to store the bulk offsite.:mad::mad:

woelen - 14-8-2008 at 03:55

No, this has nothing to do with meth-labs, nor with explosives or other adverse activities. But I truly believe that a good home chemist also should have a tidy and clean working place and does not have tens or hundreds of bottles and jars filled with chemicals all over the place, on the ground, on the furniture, etc. A real lab also does not have chemicals scattered all over the place.

If someone would come into my lab (and this happens at least every year or so, when someone is coming into the lab for service-work on the heating system and sun-boiler, which are in the same room), they would not see any chemicals, except some small 100 ml bottles with working solutions and test tubes which are on the work bench and a photographic enlarger. My stock of chemicals is behind doors and I only keep them in one place, not scattered all over the house (also for my own health and safety, not just because of regulations).

That story of this guy who has chemicals by the drum and stores them in parked trailers is just plain stupid. This reminds me of a raid in NL, 2 years ago. That guy had hundreds of kilos of KNO3, tens of kilos of KClO3, tens of kilos of metal powders, gallons of acids, tens of kilos of other reductors and tens of liters of flammable solvents all crammed into a little wooden garden-house. He also had kilos of premixed compositions, sitting on the shelves. This little garden house also was his working place, where he mixed pyrotechnic compositions. Usually I get very angry when I read about raids (such as recently in Germany), but in this case, I think it was good. This little garden-house was a big bomb and only time knew when it would set off...

franklyn - 14-8-2008 at 11:05

@ bigbigbeaker
A prosecutor will slant the facts to appear as dire as can be. Granted this
person could have been more discrete but the fact he was being open just
demonstrates he had nothing to hide. Explain why shelves stacked with
these pool chems in a store is alright but located elswhere they unexplainably
become a public threat. The man who this thread is about, " Mr. Deeb was
doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is
a violation of zoning laws " is the reason for the confiscation and has nothing
to do specifically with chemicals, none of which were deemed dangerous.

.

ScienceSquirrel - 14-8-2008 at 17:49

Quote:
Originally posted by franklyn
@ bigbigbeaker
Explain why shelves stacked with
these pool chems in a store is alright but located elswhere they unexplainably
become a public threat.


That is pretty easy. If you are running a business you have a registered place of business and the processes that you are running and the materials that you hold are known to the fire service if they are hazardous.
The private storage of small quantities of petrol for lawn mowers etc is allowed where I live in Western Europe.
But you are not allowed to have a couple of 50 gallon drums full of petrol in the outhouse!
If he had been holding small quantities of chemicals and could have argued that they were related to a hobby such as photography then he would have stood a chance.
Incidentally round here you are not allowed to run a business from your garage even if it only involves delivering newspapers etc without approval. Obviously there is a bit of a grey area but if you start running a major enterprise from your home then the local snoopys will come to call.

[Edited on 15-8-2008 by ScienceSquirrel]

MagicJigPipe - 15-8-2008 at 13:27

We're missing the point here. The fact is that even if he was "neat and tidy" and didn't have massive amounts of chemicals he would probably still be persecuted. Also, don't believe everything the media reports. It probably wasn't as bad as they are reporting.

Also, if you can't store 50 gallons of gasoline in your house then probably half the people in this country are breaking the law. The typical family in my area has about 3 cars usually 2 of which are SUVs. That can amount to nearly 100 gallons of fuel if they are filled. Not to mention fuel for the boat, ATV, jetski, etc... and gallons of paint thinner, engine cleaner, methanol, hard liquor, PROPANE. That's typical. The only reason this man is in trouble is because he's different. I mean, they even said so. He doesn't have a "customary home occupation". They might as well just come out and say that that's the reason they're after him.

In fact, I would be willing to bet that my parents have more flammable liquids/gases in their house than I do. However, who do you think is more likely to be busted for it?

chloric1 - 15-8-2008 at 13:47

Magic-You are right about there eagerness to discriminate. But I diagree that tidyness is missing the point as per woelen demonstrated with the dinky garden shed. Some people are not responsible enough to have chemicals. I just wish we all did not have to suffer for it though:(:(

len1 - 15-8-2008 at 15:30

Reminds me of the Soviet gulags, where everone thought all were here for a reason except himself. Realy worth a read - The Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsin, if you want to understand what really drives people.


@woelen In this case if he had his chemicals locked up in a cupboard he probably wouldnt have had this happen. And if you dont demonstrate on the forum you make explosives while making your identity traceable, it wouldnt have happened to you either, someone might write later. So what if you had all your chems nice and tidy. (God forbid I dont want this to happen to anyone, this is just a demonstration of logic).

[Edited on 15-8-2008 by len1]

MagicJigPipe - 16-8-2008 at 19:12

Quote:
And if you dont demonstrate on the forum you make explosives while making your identity traceable, it wouldnt have happened to you either, someone might write later. So what if you had all your chems nice and tidy. (God forbid I dont want this to happen to anyone, this is just a demonstration of logic).


I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Could you please elaborate?

no1uno - 16-8-2008 at 22:13

A similar home chemist arrest story from Australia, some of you may have noticed the absence of somebody from here and elsewhere? There home was raided and they were arrested for (1) possession of glassware; and (2) possession of scientific journal articles (some 5% of which had some relevance to either methamphetamine, methylenedioxyamphetamine and/or some analogue thereof, the rest consisted of the 'normal' range of journal articles). No listed chemicals were found, nor was there any evidence of intent to manufacture any prohibited substance.

Notwithstanding the absence of any evidence of actual 'illegal' activity, this person is now facing prosecution on charges which combined carry a potential 40 years imprisonment. Their household cleaning products have all been confiscated (also including several bowls of sugar and other condiments), there glassware collection is gone and their house has been ransacked (they broke every lightbulb in the fucking place - they actually broke them off, fucked if I know why).

Stay tuned

chromium - 16-8-2008 at 22:56

Why exactly you do not tell us who it is?
Quote:
Originally posted by no1uno
Notwithstanding the absence of any evidence of actual 'illegal' activity, this person is now facing prosecution on charges which combined carry a potential 40 years imprisonment.


What you say is impossible. No one can be prosecuted if there is no crime (proven or frame-up). He/She must be accused in something that could give those 40 years. So what this is?

[Edited on 17-8-2008 by chromium]

no1uno - 16-8-2008 at 23:45

NYET, I described precisely as it happened (as I have been informed, first-hand). The local GEFEPO has decided to launch a test-case, in order to determine whether the legislation bans the possession of these two in and of themselves with nothing else being required. That is the way of life here, now.

len1 - 17-8-2008 at 00:15

There is no legislation in Australia carrying the penalty you mentioned for the things you mentioned. Also the place is sufficiently small that media here carries stories of pretty much every 'bust'. So to have any validity this story needs a reference, a mention of a state, and mention of the username, so we can see that he really has disappered (though this part in itself will prove nothing)

no1uno - 17-8-2008 at 01:38

Au contraire, mon ami, au contraire. Len1, details of the relevant legislation has been sent to you via PM. Please feel free to make a note as to whether or not you regard it as authentic and the laws to be as described. The person described is quite probably behind the lack of the ability of contributor's here to edit their own posts after 48 hours.

len1 - 17-8-2008 at 02:41

Im sorry I was wrong. I was under the impression the penalties in qld were a couple of years max. I accessed QLD independently of the link you posted an can confirm.

1) Interestingly the legislation makes it clear just having a link on your computer to a document/site containing instructions on how to make drugs is sufficient to fall under legilsation (see below) So sciencemadness falls in the category!

2) Possessing a reaction vessel carries a max sentence of 15 yrs. A reaction vessel is not there defined. Could be anything - pots and pans.

3) You still didnt provide reference to the actual facts or a username. The cloak and dagger is a bit suspicious. Nonetheless the legislation is outrageous in itself. Hail fascism! Enjoy

(PS there is thankfully no corresponding legislation yet in VIC, NSW, SA)

Publishing or possessing instructions for producing
dangerous drugs
(1) A person who unlawfully publishes instructions, or
unlawfully has possession of a document containing
instructions, about the way to produce a dangerous drug
commits a crime.
Maximum penalty—
(a) if the dangerous drug to which the instructions relate is a
thing specified in the Drugs Misuse Regulation 1987,
schedule 1—25 years imprisonment; or
(b) if the dangerous drug to which the instructions relate is a
thing specified in the Drugs Misuse Regulation 1987,
schedule 2—20 years imprisonment.
(2) It is a defence to a charge of an offence against subsection (1)
of unlawfully publishing instructions, or unlawfully
possessing a document containing instructions, about the way
to produce cannabis as a commercial fibre or seed crop, for a
person to prove that the person published the instructions, or
possessed the document containing the instructions, for a
purpose authorised under part 5B.2
(3) In this section—
document containing instructions about the way to produce a
dangerous drug includes anything designed to enable
electronic access specifically to the instructions.
Example of a thing designed to enable electronic access to instructions—
a document containing a computer password specifically designed to
give access through a computer to the instructions
publish includes publish to any person and supply, exhibit
and display to any person, whether the publication is made
orally or in written, electronic or another form.


Possessing relevant substances or things
(1) A person who unlawfully possesses a relevant substance or
thing commits a crime.
Maximum penalty—15 years imprisonment.
(2) In this section—
relevant substance or thing means—

(a) a substance that is, or contains, a controlled substance
and the gross weight of the relevant substance is of, or
exceeds, the gross weight specified in the Drugs Misuse
Regulation 1987, schedule 8A in respect of the relevant
substance; or
(b) substances that together are, or contain, a controlled
substance and the total gross weight of the relevant
substances is of, or exceeds, the total of the gross
weights specified in the Drugs Misuse Regulation 1987,
schedule 8A in respect of the relevant substances; or
(c) a thing specified in the Drugs Misuse Regulation 1987,
schedule 8B.

Schedule 8B

1 condenser
2 distillation head
3 heating mantle
4 manual or mechanical pill press, including a pill press under
repair, a modification of a pill press and parts for a pill press
5 rotary evaporator
6 reaction vessel, including a reaction vessel under repair or a
modification of a reaction vessel
7 splash head, including a splash head under repair or parts for a splash head

[Edited on 17-8-2008 by len1]

no1uno - 17-8-2008 at 02:53

Maybe the person involved is mildly concerned about the possibility that, especially given that you have already made the point that SM may well be classed as falling within the ambit of s.8A and the prosecution brief has not yet made clear what they are and are not going to attempt to prove, that it be made clear that they are not seeking to 'destroy evidence' (the penalties for that, once proceedings are afoot are severe). There is also the other possibility, that knowing that this is one site frequented by LE, who being in possession of the material dealing specifically with their predicament, the person might justifiably not want to be associated with any username that might make their life more difficult than it already is.

Just a series of possibly erroneous conclusions, I don't actually know

len1 - 17-8-2008 at 02:57

In that case, if all he was doing is science at home, Im very sorry. Qld will eventually pay for this - its destined to become a technological backwater.

no1uno - 17-8-2008 at 04:19

Yeah, clever state my arse

chromium - 17-8-2008 at 06:16

Quote:
Originally posted by len1
1) Interestingly the legislation makes it clear just having a link on your computer to a document/site containing instructions on how to make drugs is sufficient to fall under legilsation (see below) So sciencemadness falls in the category!

2) Possessing a reaction vessel carries a max sentence of 15 yrs. A reaction vessel is not there defined. Could be anything - pots and pans.



I do not know what QLD is but i still can not belive this is what it looks like. Maybe Sauron could comment, he can understand legislations better than most of us.

Many online scientific journals contain information on making drugs and are in obligatory usage at universities. Patents too, contain such information.

Something that is so undefined as reaction vessel just can not give you 15 years in prison, otherwise every citizen could be prosecuted for having one. For example if one will sue that australian citizen X. has reaction vessel then courts must have some way not to prosecute him. Otherwise they can soon do nothing more than just give everyone 15 years for nothing.

Maybe this law is just something which can only be used to maximise charges when crime (like making drugs or explosive devices) is already proven?

Internet forums with theyr anonymity have one big problem. If someone does not log in for a while we do not know if something has happened to him or he is just busy. There are quite some formerly active members of whom we know nothing. Pre-internet communication forms did not have this problem. Now it may be possible to eliminate half of the members before other half will get clear evidence that something is indeed happening.

[Edited on 17-8-2008 by chromium]

not_important - 17-8-2008 at 06:47

QLD = Queensland, home of the Moreton Bay penal colony at one time.

Various institutions have made laws as vague as the one regarding "reaction vessel", in the USA the law in Texas was so written that a coffee maker could be considered as apparatus in a drug lab (as indeed it is, used to prepare extracts of the addictive substance caffeine). Laws that put a goodly portion of the populace in violation of them are useful, they can reinforce other charges or simple be used to lock up an annoying but otherwise law abiding citizen to shut them up for awhile; otherwise the laws just sit there generally not enforced until needed.

Sauron - 17-8-2008 at 11:30

Any comment I would make on this asinine and reactionary legislation, which is a complete violation of basic principles of freedom of thought and inquiry, and an example of a police state run amok and trampling the rights of the populace, can only be obscene and gesticulatory which really does not work well over the Internet.

Even those barbarians in Texas would not dare to go so far.

no1uno - 17-8-2008 at 11:44

What they are generally kept for is to ensure that when the flying monkey squad (Qld Police are led by Judy Spence, the original wicked witch of OZ, east) fucks up and spends a shitload of its brand new annual budget flying forensic chemists about the place (plus paying for >10 pigs all day and then on overtime) on something that turns out not to be a drug-lab, that they can show some result.

The result in this case will be other than expected, they seem to have ignored the fact that penal provisions are habitually read in the manner most beneficial to the accused person. As a result, legal action is pending the conclusion of the prosecution, but just be aware of the situation.

Sauron - 17-8-2008 at 12:06

Once a law is passed the intent of the people who drafted the legislation is out the window. It's then a tool in the hands of the prosecutors, who take what was intended to be a scalpel and instead weild it like a machete in the hands of a psychopath.

My old pal Gordon Liddy when he was an assistant secretary of the treasury department drafted the Omnibus Crime Control Act, I had occasion to discuss it in detail with him and he told me flatly that it was being used in a manner totally inconsistent with what he wrote and for that matter, contrary to the intent of Congress.

A very similar situation prevails with the RICO laws, which were intended to apply very narrowly to traditional organized crime (e.g., the Mafia) and which basically deprive defendants of basic constitutional rights. However from the git-go prosecutors have applied RICO to a lot of cases that have nothing to do with the Mafia.

Same goes for civil property forfeiture "arrest the money" cases.

Bad laws that ought to be done away with.

But this Ozzie thing is the worst I have heard of. The cops and the prosecutors want to win cases without the inconvenience and hassle of evidence, proof of criminal intent, and so on - you know, all those little details that the pettygogging lawyers use to frustrate good old fashioned justice.

Next step will be dispensing with trials and proceeding straight to summary executions (lynching by any other name.)

[Edited on 18-8-2008 by Sauron]

len1 - 17-8-2008 at 15:06

I am just stunned by the lack of education brutal disregard for consequences in this legislation.

Possession of heroin is listed in the same clause with the same punishment as possession of a condenser. Its as if it was drafted by stone age people, to whom both things look equally illegal.

I suppose they decided to leave it to the judge to use his judgement - theorectically he can dole out 1 yr for possessing heroin and 15 years for possessing a condenser. With so much left to the judges mercy why not then dispense with the law books (and legislators!) altogether and save a lot of money. Just bring people in front of the judge and see if he likes them.

Thank God I left queensland all those years ago. The climate is great, but as for this ..

MagicJigPipe - 17-8-2008 at 15:29

This is absolutely F**KING REDICULOUS. This is the kind of tyranny that demands immediate action. It's far past the point of protest, petition and demonstration (if even that is still tolerated there). I don't even want to come out and say exactly what I mean but I'm sure the message is clear. Sometimes drastic times call for drastic measures.

I've got my eyes on the Australian people. I would really love to see them set a good example for the rest of us.

I think this is past the point of words. However, that is, of course, ultimately for Austrailians to decide in a time where personal decisions are aren't the norm.

len1 - 17-8-2008 at 16:46

One of ther key sources of income for Queensland, is the retirement dollar, and the technology dollar, the former has been for ages, the latter they are keen to cultivate.

Maybe you would like to acquaint people who are thinking of moving to QLD, as they are browsing thru the glossy leaflets put out by the Queensland State Government, with the following legislation which the same government passed. Even if they do no science at home (and many people developing patents do work at home), I have found those who are still outraged by the brutal disregard for personal freedom.

The act is called Drugs Misuse Act 1986. (This is a current act as you can see in the URL, it has just been amended many times since its introduction)

www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/D/DrugsMisuseA86.pdf

the following is the regulation the act refers to (the act outlines what you must and mustnt do in schedules, and the penalties, the regulations say what the schedules contain).

www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/D/DrugsMisuseR87.pdf

The take home message being: if you plan to do RD in your spare time, and/or value personal freedoms, dont move to Queensland.

[Edited on 18-8-2008 by len1]

Ramiel - 17-8-2008 at 18:39

If we are talking about the person I think we're talking about, I think we can assume he had it coming, shocking state of the legislation notwithstanding.

MagicJigPipe - 17-8-2008 at 19:40

Who would that be? Does panache live in Queensland or NSW?

no1uno - 17-8-2008 at 23:50

A person with NO (a) listed chemicals; and/or (b) demonstrated intent to produce anything illegal - had it coming?

That is like suggesting that chicks who (a) wear short skirts; and (b) go out at night; deserve whatever happens to them, up to and including rape/murder.

Then again, you might have some way of justifying the statement made, fucked if I can see it but

JohnWW - 18-8-2008 at 04:10

Queensland has one of the world's most corrupt Pig forces; - they routinely take bribes, especially where drugs or even the slightest suspicion thereof is concerned, and they especially solicit bribes from alleged "suspects" whom they know are rich and/or influential. The Australian Federal Pigs, the New South Wales State Pigs, and Victoria State Pigs are not far behind; while the West Australia Pigs are noted for their brutality. (I am not sure about the Northern Territory, South Australia, and Tasmania State Pigs).

Scores of them have been exposed for corruption offenses over the last 30 or so years, especially with the rise there in the 1970s of drug "kingpins" who used to smuggle in tons of heroin from southeast Asia on ocean-going yachts. However, this smuggling method is now too risky, due to pirates off the coasts of Thailand, Indonesia, Burma, and Malaysia, and due to beefed-up Australian Customs and Coastguard patrols off the Australian coast. Even anti-corruption squads have been "tainted". Just a few months ago, the Deputy Commissioner of the Australian Federal Pigs, in Canberra, A.C.T., who was regarded as "untouchable", was exposed for taking bribes from drug-dealers in return for being "tipped off" in advance about pending Pig raids.

Those Queensland drug laws were passed during the many years of the Fascist State government (which looks like being permanently out of power now, along with the former Howard Federal régime) of Joh Bjelke-Petersen, a Bible-banging hypocrite and blatant racist. However, due to its inertia and fear of upsetting a small but vocal "wowser" minority, the Labor Government now in power there still has not gotten around to repealing the oppressive laws and returning to the previous status quo, even though the laws are clearly contrary to and countermanded by Federal human-rights laws (particularly the equivalent of the U.S. First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments).

[Edited on 19-8-08 by JohnWW]

Sauron - 18-8-2008 at 04:32

I think if Ramiel wanted to name names he would have done, so baiting him to do so is just a waste of time.

12AX7 - 18-8-2008 at 08:35

Impressive JohnWW, three whole paragraphs without using a dollarsign! Pork farming seems a rather trangential subject to politics, though, I'm not sure I understand your repeated references to that there.

Tim

Panache - 27-8-2008 at 01:04

Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Who would that be? Does panache live in Queensland or NSW?


ROFL!!!

Firstly i'm not running a home lab, secondly i have been busy these past few weeks. I must say however returning with some glee tonight was enjoyable until i ventured to this tiresome thread, tiresome because we don't really know what happened to whom. Yes the legislation as stated is silly however no-one ever expected politicians to pass sensible legislation, i mean do you think any MP's read the countless reams of legislation passed annually, do you think the police are kept abreast of it properly. The mantra is simple for law enforcement in Australia. Focus on violent crime at a neighborhood level and focus on organised crime on a national and state level. Thats about all we can afford. It works adequately.

Of concern is that for some time now politicians appear to have become greedy and instead of just passing legislation they have started to want to force judges into sentencing handcuffs. A point in case is in Victoria if you are caught driving while disqualified for a second time it's a mandatory 6 months incarceration, which the judge can suspend but so what, you're now a criminal. The creeping in of these types of silly mandatory sentences do away with judicial oversight to stupid laws written by idiots and passed by fools.

Presently i'd happily take my chances with reason and logic and a judge, they are of good nature and able to decipher argument.

Also MagicJigpipe i'm offended that you would brand me as 'having it coming'. What possibly could warrant this stupid assertion. You can go fuck yourself, i do not like you anymore. Also proper nouns are precluded from capitalizing anything other than the first letter or those after a space, so swap the capital J for a lowercase one or insert a space before it, however its probably a design element, kuhl ya!!

chloric1 - 27-8-2008 at 02:34

Quote:
Originally posted by Panache
Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Who would that be? Does panache live in Queensland or NSW?


Also MagicJigpipe i'm offended that you would brand me as 'having it coming'. What possibly could warrant this stupid assertion. You can go fuck yourself, i do not like you anymore. Also proper nouns are precluded from capitalizing anything other than the first letter or those after a space, so swap the capital J for a lowercase one or insert a space before it, however its probably a design element, kuhl ya!!


Uh, that was Ramiel who said "had it coming"! Besides this forum is not the place for vulgur and hatefull abuse. Lets get our knuckles off the ground here.

Panache - 27-8-2008 at 03:12

Quote:
Originally posted by chloric1
Quote:
Originally posted by Panache
Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Who would that be? Does panache live in Queensland or NSW?


Also MagicJigpipe i'm offended that you would brand me as 'having it coming'. What possibly could warrant this stupid assertion. You can go fuck yourself, i do not like you anymore. Also proper nouns are precluded from capitalizing anything other than the first letter or those after a space, so swap the capital J for a lowercase one or insert a space before it, however its probably a design element, kuhl ya!!


Uh, that was Ramiel who said "had it coming"! Besides this forum is not the place for vulgur and hatefull abuse. Lets get our knuckles off the ground here.


Ramiel said had it coming but did not mention anyone, immediately afterwards MagicJigpipe mentioned me, by inference the conclusion would be drawn by a reader, If anything is disgusting, vulgar and hateful it's the simple ignorant accusation leveled at me because
1-I'm australian
2-have not been on the forum for the previous 2 weeks

And in case you are unfamiliar with common diversion methods the nothing comment regarding the capital in his name is equivalent to saying 'at least i don't have a big nose' when you know leveling deserved criticism pertinent to the conflict will only further inflame.

I hate trading boring insults, its inane, but i will not tolerate absolutely unfounded malicious crap leveled against me, hence the last post.

Enough now, except I will happily recieve apologies.

Actually no i am rather incensed by this, if you had any idea of the level of transparency i undertake you would cede to my angst regarding this comment. I mean FFS i gave the police 30 b34 coiled condenser and a cylinder of ammonia from a surplus stockpile i ended up with. They have walked through this place twice now on my invitation so they are aware of the nature of the place in case of burglary, the front door is open all day everyday. I take the local high school students through on tours. I do nothing wrong, the devil is in the intent of an activity and is not inherent simply in all activities of a certain class. I mean this thread is about how ridiculous the home raid was and two pages later our own members spout similar unvalidated crap and no-ones says boo, are you all so unobjective?

Bah this is nothing more than a gossip column and i'm wasting my time.

ProChem - 27-8-2008 at 11:03

Hello All,

I dropped an email to Mr. Deebs asking whether he would give advice to those wanting to set up a home lab. Well perhaps he can't on advice from counsel. What he sent me was his side of the story and from what I get out of it is have all your Ts' crossed and dot your Is'.
Keep a duplicate notebook, label all bottles with contents and include the CAS number. Store all flamables in approved containers/ cabnet, store acids from bases, store oxidizers away from organic material. Keep a fire extinguisher available. Have MSDSs and TDSs neatly organized and filed in a safe location. In other words be as professional as possible. Give the government no reason to confiscate your work.

Here is the communication:

Mr. Deebs,

Just recently I became aware of the loss of your home lab which may be old
news but news which interests me. I find the loss of your notebook, your
intellectual property, appalling. I am a professional organic chemists in
fragrance ingredient synthesis with 20 years experience. I have been
planning to build a home lab to work on my own ideas and while I was
googling for ideas I started to find information that concerned me. That's
how I found the article about your troubles. I live in Easton Pa. with a
"progressive" government that may not like what I am going to do and I am
writing to ask for advice. I am aware you live or lived in Marlborough
Mass and I live in Pa. but we have U.S. Constitutional rights. Don't we?
Can you enlighten me about what I might be in store for? If you had to do
it all over, would you?

Many Regards

E.A.




Mr. A

Please read below the true story of what has happened to me
The only way to rejuvenate the economy is with innovation, and the only way to innovate is to encourage creative scientist to do their thing, and not prostitute their talents to large corporations.

I am a 71 year old chemist with a B.S. degree in chemistry and advanced courses in polymer chemistry, with nearly 45 years of experience in industry, upon my early retirement I initiated an effort to continue my work, by tinkering in my basement.

In my basement / lab. I have carried out work as described below to support my consulting efforts.

On Aug. 5 2008 about 11 AM Officer Pacific of the Marlborough, Ma. police Dep. while riding his motorcycle on Fremont St. Marlborough Ma. noticed that smoke was coming out of a window air conditioner in my wife's bedroom, he phoned the fire Dep. and got me out of the house, in a pajama bottom, T shirt and no shoes, The fire Dep. put out the fire within minutes of their arrival, and in their effort to eliminate the possibility that the electrical fire started in the basement, the firemen entered my basement looking for the source of the fire and the electrical fuse box, when the electrical board was obviously obvious from the open garage door, and found my lab. With (Labeled) samples, all over, on shelves, on tables and some on the floor, some home canning jars, quart cans and vials, marked but not labeled, that I carried my experiments in, Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS), Technical Data Sheets (TDS) and spread sheets of my experiments, conditions, results, and observations, and any document that would allow me to protect my intellectual properties.

The fire department not knowing what the samples represented, and fearing the worst, elevated my situation to Tier 3, when every firemen i have consulted, in Marlborough, state of Ma. and else where (nationwide) , said it should not been any more than a Tier 1. because no Firemen had any education in chemistry. toxicity, and hazard of materials, If Tier 3 was justified then why all those 55 gal. drums containing alleged hazardous materials left in the RAIN with lids filled with water and hail.

Where are the pictures of hazard, toxic, flammable materials in my lab. ?

Someone Contacted the code enforcement office of The City of Marlborough, Ma. (Ms Pamela Wilderman) a code enforcement officer who is a theater major,
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007...
It is claimed that I may have violated zoning laws, which is contrary to;
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/40a-9.htm ,
and i just received a letter (certified mail) from Ms Wilderman cautioning me not to reinstitute my lab.,without a permit, but NO citation.

I met with Ms Wilderman and tried to explain to her what was in my Lab., but admittedly she did not understand because she had no technical training, I met her and her associate (Deirdre O'Connor assistant sanitarian 508 460 3753) again In my hotel room and I explained that there was no more toxic, hazardous, or flammable material, in my lab. than found in any home.

Materials found in ANY home, such as Bleach, solvents in surface cleaner, window glass cleaners, rubbing alcohol, finger nail polish and finger nail polish remover, hydrogen peroxide, paints and drain cleaners, are more volatile, hazardous, and flammable than anything found in my lab.

The state police office of the state fire marshal of which Trooper Sean P. Sullivan interviewed me and asked me to sign a document giving the state permission to renter my home at any time, which I refused to sign, Trooper Sullivan remained around for the following three days, constantly in and out of my house, without a court order or my permission.

The emergency response of Ma. Dep. Of environment protection waste site clean up, of whom Mr. Nicholas J. Child (Section Chief) and William J. Phillips (Branch chief), visited me in my hotel room, and I explained to them what I was working on in details, at which time Mr. Child asked me if I was in a position to afford removing all items from my lab, and I said NO!, filled out a form handed to me and left. Apparently Mr. Child contracted with New England Disposal Technology, Inc. of which Mr. Michael F. Sabo who is its field operation manager, without a court order.

Mr Sabo and his crew proceeded to place the samples from my lab., container labeled, unlabeled but marked into open head 55 gal drums which were stored in my back yard in the open that accumulated significant rain water on the lids due to the rain storm that day.

Is it not illegal for the state to enter and dismantle my lab and remove my samples and 20 years of my life without a court order, in the presence of a lawyer representing my interest?

On Aug. 8, I was informed by the City of Marlborough Fire Chief David Adams, that I was permitted to return to my home. Upon my return to my home, I realized that my work for the last 20 years has been dismantled, destroyed and removed including Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS), Technical Data Sheets (TDS) and spread sheets of my experiments, conditions, results, and observations, and any document that would allow me to protect my intellectual properties, upon my contacting Mr. Child of the emergency response section chief, some of the MSDS and TDS were returned to me by Mr. Child but NO! Spread sheets of my experiments, conditions, results, and observations, and any document that would allow me to protect my intellectual properties, and said that they may be in the FBI's possession.

Chief Adams of the Marlborough,Ma.fire Dep. was kind enough to send Deputy Fire Chief James Diamond to help me locate spread sheets of my experiments, conditions, results, and observations, and any document that would allow me to protect my intellectual properties, NONE were found in the basement / lab. nor the garage.

Projects I have worked on in my Lab.

In my desire to help the environment led to my interest in the recycling of used Rubber tires, by reclaiming / recycling, instead of burning for fuel which generates toxic hazardous fumes. Samples of ground rubber tire were among the samples removed from my lab.

Currently there are 3 ways to recycled rubber tire:

1) Brute force, by passing chopped rubber tire between 2 counter rotating cylinders driven by very high horsepower motors, which produces particle of 40 Mesh at best, the higher the mesh the smaller the particle size, the more acceptable it is for recycling into virgin tires or as asphalt modifier.

2) The Cryogenic process which uses liquid nitrogen to cool the rubber and upon impact particles as small as 300 mesh could be produced, the weight of liquid nitrogen per weight of rubber required, makes the Cryogenic process economically prohibitive.

3) The wet process implemented by The Rouse Rubber Co. Of Mississippi, which utilizes a way to grind chips from used tires under water, to as low as 200 Mesh economically.

My interest in the wet process led to my association with The Rouse Rubber Co. as a consultant and eventually to the formation of a partnership under the name of R. & D. Technology Inc. (Rouse & Deeb) and:

PAT. NO.Title
1 6,815,510 Elastomer reclaiming composition and method
2 6,743,836 Method for predispersing compounding ingredients
3 6,680,110 Particle size reduction using supercritical materials
4 6,663,954 Method of reducing material size
5 6,426,136 Method of reducing material size
6 6,333,373 Ground elastomer and method
7 6,238,448 Grinding stones

Prior to my association with the wet process, they used a 20% slurry in the grinding process, which was increased to 40% with an additive I identified.

Prior to my association with the wet process, they could not grind Butyl inter tubes or tire molding bladders without an additive I identified hence the presence of various additives in my lab.

In an effort to identify ways to enhance the acceptability / recycling of wet process ground rubber by the host compound such as tire compounds or as a modifier for asphalt, paving or roofing, I investigated many potential binders / additives.

Of the binders / additives investigated certain type of polyurethane chemistry was identified as lending themselves to this application. Water dispersions of such Polyurethane chemistry, were obtained and evaluated as binders for ground rubber tire with success. Fearing that the cost of the specific Polyurethane chemistry dispersion may become an obstacle for adding such polyurethane dispersions to the wet process, I acquired various latexes (Such as Neroprene SBR, acrylic, ect.) and investigated minimum Polyurethane dispersion required to maintain binding capacity of the ground rubber tire, Hence the presence of various Latexes / polymer dispersion in my lab.

My interest in utilizing an alternative way to enhancing various processes of reclaiming scrap tires, I identified certain additives that enhance the effectiveness, a process that utilizes much less energy. a water soluble solvent, and a peroxide (NOT HYDROGEN PEROXIDE FOUND IN MOST HOMES) but peroxide with a 300 to 400 dF decomposition temp. Hence the presence of Dicumyl peroxide, Ter-Butyl perbenzoate and 2,5-Dimethyl-2,5-di(tert-butylperoxy) hexane, and water soluble solvents in my lab. Which are safe enough to be approved for food contact applications by the FDA.

My interest in renewable resources led me to evaluate vegetable oils as a component of modifier for asphalt. Vegetable oil when combined with petroleum derived di-functional monomer and a catalyst, subjected, in a batch or continuous way in a reactor I developed using my enhanced process, will produce a syrup, which will finish its polymerization process using asphalt's melting heat / energy. Hence the presence of various vegetable oils and a monomers ( which are FDA approved for food contract) in my lab.




The identification of BisPhenol A, BisPhenol F
http://greenopolis.com/myopolis/blogs/david+d/big-plastic-pa...
http://www.chej.org/BPA_Website.htm
and Pthalates in baby foods, from coatings, sealants and Dioxin
http://www.des.state.nh.us/NHPPP/healthcare_p2/Section3.pdf
(the worst known toxin to man) from the degradation of Poly vinyl chloride (PVC) Plastisol sealant,
http://hemporganic.com/PVC.htm
upon reclaiming the steel from food jar metal closures, has led me to recognize an opportunity to help humanity in general and children in particular, and embarked on a project to develop a NO BisPhenol A, BisPhenol F liquid coating that can be applied using existing methods and converted using existing equipment, temp / time. Utilizing a modified Vegetable oil, oligomers and peroxides complying with FDA 21 CFR 175.300 are under consideration by European and domestic companies.
I have also a NO PVC, NO PHTHALATES closure sealant based on oligomers antioxidant and a catalyst complying with FDA 21 CFR 175.300 ready for sampling. Hence the presence of modified vegetable oils, oligomers and powder antioxidant complying with FDA 21 CFR 175.300 in my lab.


http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2001/aprqtr/pdf/21cfr175.3...
Having developed these products I was seeking to partner with someone to manufacture and market the products I developed, creating jobs would we have a light bulb or PC's if they were treated as I was.

The only way to rejuvenate the economy is with innovation, and the only way to innovate is to encourage creative scientist to do their thing, and not prostitute their talents to large corporations.
WAS THIS A HAZARDOUS MATERIALS INCIDENT?
Was there a spill?
Was there a liquid leak?
Was there a vapor leak?


WHO REQUESTED THE STATE POLICE BOMB SQUAD AND THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION?
One of the Lieutenants who responded to the fire is a member of the State Hazmat team, he requested the Tier 3 haz mat response. A Tier 3 response is a full team activation with a mobile command post that contains all kinds of metering and sampling equipment, computer databases, guidebooks and such as well as the equipment trucks.
[DEPUTY FIRE CHIEF RONALD P. AYOTTE]


Marlborough fire Dep. chief Adams said his department contacted the state fire marshal's office because of the quantity of chemicals discovered. The fire marshal then contacted the state bomb squad, Adams said. [METROWEST 08-06-08]


WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RECORD, BOOKS, AND NOTES? ( my intellectual property)
There was a fire watch and police presence at the scene to guard the property.
the Fire Department maintained a 24/7 presence there to maintain control of the incident.
[DEPUTY FIRE CHIEF RONALD P. AYOTTE]


WHO REQUESTED THE HELICOPTER?


WHO REMOVED THE DEEB'S FROM THEIR HOME FOR THREE DAYS?
In regards to temporary living quarters was any assistance given by the Marlborough
Mayor's Charity Fund, Marlborough Human Services, Red Cross, Salvation Army?

Did the city pay for the hotel rooms?

While Marlborough fire Dep. (MFD) units were operating with other agencies at the hazmat incident at 81 Fremont Street, Marlborough Fire Alarm received a 911 call reporting a structure fire at 184 Mechanic Street. Six families were displaced by the fire; the Red Cross was called to assist them in finding temporary housing until they can return to their homes.
[DEPUTY FIRE CHIEF RONALD P. AYOTTE]

Best Regards;

Victor M. Deeb

President
R. & D. Technology, International, Inc.
81 Fremont St.
Marlborough, Ma. 01752 USA
Phone 508-460-9448
Fax 508-481-8878

Arrhenius - 27-8-2008 at 11:58

Wow.. not seeing anything missing in that story... this is really shameful on the part of the local government. Thanks for sharing your corespondence.

Panache - 28-8-2008 at 02:47

WOW! And to think i got really annoyed last night because of some silly assumption, i would be absolutely irate, one cannot even comment its so momumentally devoid of sensibility, basically the state did nothing right here, not one thing, god, i'm changing my signature i'm so mad.

chloric1 - 28-8-2008 at 04:45

We as a group should really push this. What I mean is this story is sensational enough to grab the attention of at least a group of undumbdowned innovators. I don't know how we can spread the word. Maybe a public service announcement about all the common things we have now that where developed in a garage or basement. Then go on to state that tyrannical legislation and unwarranted police searches is tying a noose around innovation and utimately the United States economy.

12AX7 - 28-8-2008 at 06:56

Talk to your local representatives. They're probably even available by e-mail. Mention this incident and express your concern. Write a letter to your local newspaper.

Tim

MagicJigPipe - 30-8-2008 at 18:12

Uhhhh... What just happened? You got that pissed because I was concerned that you were incarcerated? This is what I get for being worried?

I really don't understand what just happened.

If you read any of my posts you will know that I would NEVER say or imply that someone "had it coming". ESPECIALLY when it has to do with the law. Sheesh.

I must say that I find it extremely presumptuous to attribute someone elses words to the general meaning of mine. What if I didn't even read that guy's post or completely disregarded it? Did you try to ask what I meant before making hasty decisions/accusations?

I'm sorry, but I'm very disappointed by your response to this situation.

And, as you probably have already realized, I never made an assumption. I merely wanted to know if anyone had heard from you. I assumed (but let's not count that one) that if you weren't the victim you would reply. I never thought I would get a reply like this. If I said, "It's probably Panache" then you could say I made an assumption, but I did no such thing.

You have a lot of equipment. Therefore I thought that of all Australians here who have been absent lately, you would be most likely to be persecuted by the govt. That is the ONLY assumption I made.

Good day.

[Edited on 8-30-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

Panache - 1-9-2008 at 03:09

Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Uhhhh... What just happened? You got that pissed because I was concerned that you were incarcerated? This is what I get for being worried?

I really don't understand what just happened.

If you read any of my posts you will know that I would NEVER say or imply that someone "had it coming". ESPECIALLY when it has to do with the law. Sheesh.

I must say that I find it extremely presumptuous to attribute someone elses words to the general meaning of mine. What if I didn't even read that guy's post or completely disregarded it? Did you try to ask what I meant before making hasty decisions/accusations?

I'm sorry, but I'm very disappointed by your response to this situation.

And, as you probably have already realized, I never made an assumption. I merely wanted to know if anyone had heard from you. I assumed (but let's not count that one) that if you weren't the victim you would reply. I never thought I would get a reply like this. If I said, "It's probably Panache" then you could say I made an assumption, but I did no such thing.

You have a lot of equipment. Therefore I thought that of all Australians here who have been absent lately, you would be most likely to be persecuted by the govt. That is the ONLY assumption I made.

Good day.

[Edited on 8-30-2008 by MagicJigPipe]


Fuck man i'm so very sorry, i was so incensed as it seemed so ridiculous an assertion to make. I should have thought about the possibility that it was all a misunderstanding and your post was simply poorly timed (without fault) after Ramiel's, before i assumed a slur was being made.

So i apologise sincerely and if you're happy i'd as soon as remove my rant from the thread if you're OK with that.

Baaaaa! (cos i'm sheepish suddenly)

Ritter - 3-9-2008 at 04:21

Quote:
Originally posted by 12AX7
Talk to your local representatives. They're probably even available by e-mail. Mention this incident and express your concern. Write a letter to your local newspaper.

Tim


IOW, call attention to yourself. Save yourself the time & just plant a big red sign in your front yard reading AMATEUR LAB INSIDE.

The level of training of the local FD & PD in most municipalities equates 'amateur lab' with meth cooking. You'll get attention alright but not the kind you were expecting.

[Edited on 3-9-2008 by Ritter]

MagicJigPipe - 3-9-2008 at 16:39

I can attest the fact that PDs and FDs think this way. My father is a firefighter and my uncle is a state trooper. Both of them feel this way in general. In fact, my father finds nothing wrong with people having any "household chemical" but gets angry at the very mention of me planning to make small amounts of benzene.

The sad part is, you can't teach these people. They are stuck in their ways and NOTHING will change their minds. That's why we must focus on the children (if they are not already lost).

Ritter - 3-9-2008 at 17:17

As a homeowner, I also am concerned about fires & the insurance companies as well as the local FD/PD.

I've seen it written that most illegal labs (as in 'meth') are literally 'smoked out' when the authorities have to respond to put out a fire or a neighbor reports smoke or an odor that might be 'gas.' As with this poor guy in MA, the folks with the fire axes dressed in the bunker gear who enter your house (and they have more authority to do so without a warrant than the PD - it's called an 'emergency') are not trained to discriminate between dimethylxylophone & sea salt. They just tell the nice officer parked behind the fire truck that they found a lab in your house & you're in for a world of inconvenience & expense even if you weren't doing anything illegal.

Serious fires happen even in college & university labs all the time & even in commercial companies as well. My concern (should I be doing nothing more than recrystallizing Epsom salts) is the fine print in your insurance policy. In claims over $10,000 the insurance adjusters show up & they get paid to find reasons not to have their client insurance companies pay out. Having a lab &/or quantities of flammables in a home might not pass the fine print test in your policy.



[Edited on 3-9-2008 by Ritter]

MagicJigPipe - 4-9-2008 at 07:02

Great point, I never really thought about that aspect. Because of this, I am already thinking about setting up a "fire suppression system" some day whenever I have a better job and more money.

It's too bad "normal" people can't usually obtain Halon (CBrF3) systems anymore. However, according to the Wikipedia article on Halon 1301 there are many alternatives that are not so "environmentally unfriendly".
Quote:

Alternatives to Halon 1301 in fire extinguishing systems are being deployed. Many installations from which halon is removed can be protected with fire sprinklers, depending on the level of damage the equipment in the space will incur by exposure to water. In other cases, different total flooding agents can be used. The alternatives for normally occupied areas include (PFC-410 or CEA-410), C3F8 (PFC-218 or CEA-308), HCFC Blend A (NAF S-III), HFC-23 (FE 13), HFC-227ea (FM 200), IG-01 (argon), IG-55 (argonite), HFC-125, or HFC-134a. For normally unoccupied areas, the alternatives include carbon dioxide, powdered Aerosol C, CF3I, HCFC-22, HCFC-124, HFC-125, HFC-134a, gelled halocarbon/dry chemical suspension (PGA), blend of inert gas and powdered aerosol (FS 0140), and IG-541 (Inergen).[3] Perfluorocarbons, i.e., PFCs such as C3F8, have very long atmospheric lifetimes and very high global warming potentials. Hydrochlorofluorocarbons, i.e., HCFCs including HCFC containing NAF S-III, contain chlorine and are stratospheric ozone layer depleters, although less so than Halon 1301. Their selection for usage as Halon replacements should consider those factors, and is restricted in some countries.


I wonder how good 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane would be at fire suppression?

I forgot to mention standard water sprinklers (which really aren't that expensive). But, imagine the damage it could do to all of the equipment in someone's lab.

Also, of course, haloalkanes would not be suitable for someone who has a lab connected to their house (with a family) because of the risk of suffocation and intoxication. However, I think this solution would be perfect for a separate lab. (it still might be prohibitively expensive though, but it would be worth it if a fire really did happen).

CO2 sounds like the best idea for a separate lab. I don't see why argon would be much better for inhabited areas as it would still pose a suffocation hazard. What about N2? I suppose the only problem with it is that it wouldn't "sink" to the ground as readily as CO2 or argon. And, of course, none of these gases would work well against substances that "produce" their own oxygen or don't require it to burn.

[Edited on 9-4-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

Ritter - 4-9-2008 at 07:15

My concern about a Halon system would be the risk to yourself if you were knocked unconscious for some reason during the accident/explosion. These systems are intended to smother fires by excluding oxygen. If you were knocked out (say a fall backwards onto a hard floor) you could be very dead or brain damaged within a few minutes.

A water-based sprinkler system is not going to have any effect on a sodium, potassium or magnesium fire

ScienceSquirrel - 4-9-2008 at 07:45

I have seen a small one of these systems in an overnight room at a university.
Experiments could be set to run in there unattended for days. If a fire started the whole room would fill with inert gas in seconds. I reckoned that a few fast paces would see you through the door if the system triggered while you were in there.
The scariest one I have ever seen was in a large server farm. The room was the size of a tennis court and was fed by dozens of cylinders. I reckon that if the system triggered while you were in there the chance of getting out was nil.

Swede - 14-9-2008 at 10:29

In the U.S. most halon extinguishers are long gone from traditional channels, but they CAN still be purchased. They are sold to general aviation enthusiasts... pilots. Halon is still recognized as a superior agent for aviation fire fighting. If you want a halon extinguisher, find a supply shop for pilots and/or aviation maintenance. Remember, you're buying a new extinguisher for "Uncle Eddie" and his Beech Bonanza, because poor Uncle Eddie had to use his on a small fire in his hangar, and he needs a new one.

12AX7 - 14-9-2008 at 15:30

The place I worked at two summers ago used CO2. Big red cylinders outside of some testing rooms. Now that would be unpleasant to be in the middle of...

Tim

ordenblitz - 14-9-2008 at 16:45

I recently purchased two Halon fire extinguishers for my lab from a commercial fire suppression company. I did not have to represent the sale as anything else. According to them, halon is available for any special need use such as computer rooms, clean rooms, labs etc.

Phosphor-ing - 15-9-2008 at 07:24

I also have a Halon 1211 fire extinguisher (CF2ClBr). I found this one at a friends work. Since they were going through accreditation and all fire extinguishers had to be inspected they just replaced all. I grabbed this one for free.

pKa - 18-11-2008 at 16:04

Politicians, bureaucrats, and police should generally fear the people more than the people fear them.

Ordinarily, we run the place. Ideally, we should know our neighbors well enough to work with them to solve immediate problems (sidewalk breakage etc.) and not to get in their business unless they're doing something really stupid- like killing people. Even city government shouldn't have reason to involve itself except in disputes (i.e. court). Sad that there aren't many places like that.

Best thing to do if your hood (neighbor- not fume) is small enough and friendly enough is to go around and do some 'splainin. You may get a few objections (NIMBY) but this is one case where asking permission might be easier in the long run than asking for forgiveness.

jimp - 28-11-2008 at 20:05

It looks like he is filing a counterclaim:

http://blogs.masslawyersweekly.com/news/2008/10/25/controver...


ProChem,

Maybe you should tell Mr. Deeb to a set up a website. I would be happy to contribute to his legal defense/offense and I'm sure many others would too.

benzylchloride1 - 30-12-2008 at 10:53

Instead of burning books like in Fahrenheit 453, the firemen are raiding houses looking for home labs! People who have home labs think for themselves and a nanny state cannot allow that! Be suspicious of those who's job is to keep you safe.

[Edited on 30-12-2008 by benzylchloride1]

starman - 30-12-2008 at 15:00

Quote:
Originally posted by benzylchloride1
Instead of burning books like in Fahrenheit 453


I wonder if Bradbury would be happy that you increased the temperature by 2 deg F.

MagicJigPipe - 31-12-2008 at 02:02

Quote:

If you mix ammonia and bleach, you get chlorine gas.


This seems to be a common misconception. Why? I don't know.

Maybe it's a very small "byproduct" simply because it's bleach but...
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