Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Ruthenium Tetroxide

Blaster - 21-11-2003 at 01:26

Does anyone out there have any experience of RuO4? Its a rare example of a +8 oxidation state and is consequently a powerful explosive.

3K2RuO4 + 2 KMnO4 + 4 H2SO4 = 3 RuO4 + 4 K2SO4 + 2 MnO2.H2O + 4 H2O

Its a yellow solid/liquid, melting at 25'C and smells like Ozone. Unfortunately its very poisonous. It boils at about 100'C but detonates at that temperature!

Here's a quote from a Victorian text book:

"In the year 1875 Deville and Debray endevoured to distil 150 grams of this liquid; an evolution of gas began at 108', and a few moments afterwards a frightful explosion occurred, the whole laboratory being filled with a strong smell of ozone, and a black soot-like smoke"

Should give some interesting reactions with organics, never tried it myself though!!!

vulture - 21-11-2003 at 09:43

Ehm, I don't want to shoot your idea down, but have you got any idea what Ruthenium costs? The price is insane!

I am a fish - 21-11-2003 at 11:15

According to principalmetals.com, ruthenium costs about US$30 per gram. That's about twice the cost of gold.

Blaster - 21-11-2003 at 11:26

Guess not then! Ru salts are expensive (less so than the pure metal) but where there's a will there's a way! ;o)
Hasn't stopped me making fulminating Gold and various explosive silver salts in the past!

The_Davster - 21-11-2003 at 19:21

What did you think of the sensitivity of gold fulminate compared to silver and mercury fulminate?

Mumbles - 21-11-2003 at 20:33

Fulminating gold is not the same thing as gold fulminate. Fulminating gold is actually hydrated gold nitride from a reference I have. It explodes easily from heat and flame, often blowing a hole through the heating spoon. It was first made back in the days of the alchemists. They were probably experimenting with it on how to turn other things into gold.

The_Davster - 21-11-2003 at 22:39

thanks mumbles, I feared that they werent the same when i posted. what is this reference (a synth like that is a bit above me still but i collect all the chemistry info I can)

Blaster - 22-11-2003 at 03:09

Mumbles is right. Fulminating silver and gold are just archaic names for the nitrides. They are easily made from the metal oxide and conc. ammonia soln - heat gently until most of the water has evaporated then allow to air dry.

Both are quite powerful, difficult to say if Gold is more so than silver, but the Gold version is more sensitive (as expected). I've haven't made the Gold compound in 'large' amounts due to cost, but 2g of Silver nitride blew the bottom out of a nickel crucible and coated it with black (presumably metallic) silver dust! The Gold compound leaves a pinkish residue!

Wow

chloric1 - 22-11-2003 at 21:53

Hey if you could do some controlled pyro studies with RhO4 and somehow collect all or most of the precious metal residues, you could recycle it and hopefully continuiously reuse it. Get you money's worth. Maybe perform the detonations in a large improvised bell jar and collect the " black dust" and reoxidize it with the cheap KMnO4

The_Davster - 22-11-2003 at 22:16

That heating would have to be on a hot plate i assume(as oposed to a burner). But at what temp would the nitride detonate in the solution.

Blaster - 23-11-2003 at 04:48

Recyclable explosives - I like it!

When making the metal nitrides, you should be safe, even with a bunsen, as long as you don't let it boil dry - the water and ammonia evaporation keeps it below 100'C and therefore below the detonation temperature.

You do need to heat for some time - just boiling briefly isn't enough. My first attempts with the Silver compound failed cos I just boiled it dry with a bunsen within a few seconds. Just as well really!!!

For best results, heat the metal oxide and ammonia on a temperature controlled hot plate at a low heat and add extra ammonia soln two or three times but don't let it dry out between additions!

unionised - 23-11-2003 at 06:21

The product formed from ammonia, alkali and silver nitrate (or from ammonia and silver oxide) is quite capable of exploding without needing to heat it or dry it.
Please be a bit careful

guaguanco - 1-12-2003 at 15:20

Note that Ruthenium is also really, really toxic.

unionised - 1-12-2003 at 16:04

How? It's virtually innert.

guaguanco - 1-12-2003 at 16:15

Quote:
Originally posted by unionised

How? It's virtually innert.

I misstated; Ruthenium Tetroxide is toxic.

unionised - 3-12-2003 at 10:49

Thanks for reminding those of us who had forgotten since the 4th sentence of the first post in the thread (5th if you count the equation).

AndersHoveland - 20-9-2011 at 12:30

Ruthenium tetraoxide is a really interesting compound, it is very unfortunate that Ruthenium is so expensive.

The interesting thing about Ruthenium is that the Ru+3 salts can easily be oxidized to RuO4, by using bromate or periodate, even under alkaline conditions. Bromates and periodates are relatively unreactive (unless acidified), yet RuO4 is a very reactive oxidizer. Small quantities of ruthenium salts can thus actually be used as a catalyst, allowing alkaline periodates to oxidize hydrocarbons.

One source states that RuO4 has a reduction potential of 0.59v.
Periodate has a reduction potential of 0.70v under alkaline conditions, and 1.60v under acidic conditions. It seems that while RuO4 is only a "weak" oxidizer, it is also an unusually reactive oxidizer.

Bromide

quantumcorespacealchemyst - 10-3-2015 at 13:36

how is it transformable into a Halide?

with 7ml ~8%Bleach and a .543g Ru powder, it seemed only the chloride would form, so I added 2.519g NaBr.

I have kept it cold and it is still unreacted but emits the smell of Ruthenium Tetroxide. I am wondering how to keep all the Ruthenium in a halide state.

most of the Ruthenium powder, or what seems to be, is separated by decanting.
it is grey, like the original Ruthenium.

[Edited on 10-3-2015 by quantumcorespacealchemyst]

Texium - 10-3-2015 at 19:17

Please stop wasting your money

quantumcorespacealchemyst - 10-3-2015 at 23:33

maybe ~$10 of Ruthenium

quantumcorespacealchemyst - 12-3-2015 at 13:06

I have been putting small amounts of bleach and Ruthenium together. The dissolution seems to take a long time and it stay dark olive black. I haven't seen red yet. It is stored chilled. I don't want to boil it yet, I am hoping it reacts.

woelen - 12-3-2015 at 13:55

Ruthenium can be dissolved in bleach, but you need heating. You get an olive-green solution of perruthenate, but this solution turns red after a while with evolution of oxygen. The red solution is of ruthenate. It might also be that you immediately get some brown solution, which is a mix of ruthenate and perruthenate. Anyhow, after a day or so, you will have bright red ruthenate left in solution.

You might find this interesting: http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/ruthenium/in...

This experiment shows making of RuO4, but does not isolate it. It does show its volatility.

j_sum1 - 12-3-2015 at 15:06

Ok woelen. Is there any chemistry that you haven't done?
You are a mine of information for intriguing elements and compounds. Many elements for most people are just a box and a symbol on a chart. For you they are things you have handled, performed experiments on, and are intimately familiar with their properties.

quantumcorespacealchemyst - 13-3-2015 at 05:41

thanks.

will time in coldness cause a reaction eventually?

If heating, how are vapors neutralized ( of RuO4)?

[Edited on 14-3-2015 by quantumcorespacealchemyst]

woelen - 16-3-2015 at 10:19

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Ok woelen. Is there any chemistry that you haven't done?
You are a mine of information for intriguing elements and compounds. Many elements for most people are just a box and a symbol on a chart. For you they are things you have handled, performed experiments on, and are intimately familiar with their properties.

There are a few elements with which I have done no experimenting or very limited experimenting:
- osmium
- thorium
- uranium
- rhodium
- a few lanthanides
- noble gases
All other elements I have used in experiments and for most of them I have web pages on my website :)

j_sum1 - 20-3-2015 at 03:02

Rhodium chemistry has to be a pretty expensive exercise.
Noble gas chemistry -- one would expect a lot of dead ends and null results with the occasional intriguing observation that requires really specialised equipment to study further.
Uranium, I believe is really interesting. I now almost nothing about thorium. I guess you would really have to have a need to spend too much time among the radioactive elements.

But overall, consider me impressed.