Sciencemadness Discussion Board

The short questions thread (1)

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sonogashira - 5-10-2008 at 14:21

Here's a procedure which I took from Frogfot's old website which seems to now be down:

Introduction
Industrially benzoic acid is prepared by oxidising toluene with air oxygen in liquid
phase in presence of homogenous catalysts like salts of cobalt or manganese. On lab
scale it's more convenient to oxidise toluene with potassium permanganate.
Toluene can be found as solvent in most paint stores.
C6H5CH3 + 2KMnO4 ==> C6H5COOK + 2MnO2 + KOH + H2O
C6H5COOK(aq) + HCl(aq) ==> C6H5COOH(s) + KCl(aq)
Following procedure is taken from a book (see reference below), as you may notice,
they use lots of water, 350 ml, to prepare about 5 g benzoic acid, this is not good if
we wanna upscale procedure.. Do the math -- for 100 g benzoic acid we'd need at
least 7 litres jar.. Such big amounts of solvent are probably used to give reaction
mixture better agitation, otherwise, forming MnO2 will make reaction mixture too
thick. However, I found that there are no agitation problems with smaller solvent
volumes when using a magnetic stirrer, I've tested below experiment with only 100
ml water and achieved same yield as original procedure. Amount of water can be
probably decreased further (yet to test..).
Procedure
Materials:
Toluene (C6H5CH3)
Potassium permanganate (KMnO4)
Hydrochloric acid 30-40% (HCl)
In 500 ml round-bottomed flask equipped with condenser, prepare a mixture of 5,75
ml toluene, 350 ml water and 17 g fine potassium permanganate powder. Couple of
ceramic pieces should be added to even out boiling (if magnetic stirrer is
unavailable). Reaction mixture is refluxed on a sand-bath for 4 hours.
When reaction is done, solution above MnO2 must be colourless. If not, discolouring
may be achieved by addition of 1 ml alcohol or 0,5 g oxalic acid, while heating (this
will quickly reduce excess of KMnO4).
Filter hot solution (through coffee filter) and wash solid with some hot water.
Evaporate filtrate in a beaker to 50-100 ml and filter from newly formed MnO2.
Wash solid with 5 ml hot water and cool combined filtrate to room temperature.
Acidify filtrate with concentrated HCl, until it becomes acidic on pH-paper. This
will precipitate benzoic acid. Filter and wash it with small amount of cold water, dry.
Yield is 5 g (75% from theoretical)
Benzoic acid appears as white crystals with mp of 122oC. In 100 ml of water, 0,27 g
are soluble at 18oC and 5,9 g at 100oC. Also, benzoic acid has good solubility in
acetone.
References
1. S.S.Gitis, A.I.Glaz, A.V.Ivanov, Practical organic chemistry, 1991.

[Edited on 5-10-2008 by sonogashira]

Klute - 5-10-2008 at 14:56

There is a thread on the oxidation of xylenes to benzen dicarboxylic acids using neutral KMnO4, the conditions described there apply to toluene also.

sonogashira - 7-10-2008 at 04:10

Can someone help me with finding solubility data for urea in acetone please?

Edit: Thanks solo that's perfect!

[Edited on 7-10-2008 by sonogashira]

solo - 7-10-2008 at 04:53

REFERENCE INFORMATION




A Study of the Equilibrium and Kinetics of Urea Binding by a Biomimetic Dinickel(II) Complex
Sergey V. Kryatov, Elena V. Rybak-Akimova, Franc Meyer, Hans Pritzkow
European Journal of Inorganic Chemistry Volume 2003, Issue 8 , Pages1581 - 1590. 2002


[Excerpt
..............Urea Solubility: The solubility of urea in acetonitrile and acetone. in the range of 0 30 °C was determined by gravimetric.......

Attachment: A Study of the Equilibrium and Kinetics of Urea Binding by a Biomimetic Dinickel(II) Complex.pdf (191kB)
This file has been downloaded 1043 times


stoichiometric_steve - 7-10-2008 at 05:19

My question is: Is CO2 a suitable inert gas for catalytic transfer hydrogenation? With fear i saw dry (unreduced) Pd/C catalyst ignite when letting it fall into a KCOOH/HCOOH mix.

Next question is: I assume that CO2 is not a suitable inert gas for reactions involving LAH, am i right?

Klute - 7-10-2008 at 08:49

CO2 is a acid! It will react with LAH...

For the CTh, i would think it will be ok. It must have some kind of influence of the reaction, forming a equilibrium between CO2 (g), CO2 (aq) and HCO3- , but I don't know if that would really have an impact on the final yield and reaction time.

Why not use N2? It's cheap and very usefull for LAH (although Argon is better, but more expensive).. I really wouldn't feel confortable doing a LAh reduction without dry, inert atmospher. It's also very practicla to transfert solution via canulas etc

Picric-A - 7-10-2008 at 11:44

Random question but here we go!
You know when you dissove NO2 in nitric acid it goes bluish green... How can i remove that colour, in other words, make the NO2 react with the water to concentrate the HNO3...
I have heard of sweeping it with air, how does that work?
cheers!

panziandi - 7-10-2008 at 12:04

Concentrated nitric acid is 69-71% (about 70-71% if it releases faint white fumes when you blow over the bottle). 100% concentration is obtained when you distil KNO3 from H2SO4 etc this is white fuming nitric acid and isn't very stable. When you dissolve NO2 in anything over 70% you technically have red fuming nitric acid (technically RFNA has to have a certain % of NO2 dissolved) RFNA is much more stable that WFNA. To remove the NO2 to get WFNA from RFNA you warm it up and blow a current of warm dry air through it. I have a feeling that addition of urea decomposes nitrous acid which is formed and which makes the WFNA unstable for storage. 2NO2 + H2O => HNO3 + HNO2

Generally all you will ever need is 69-71% "concentrated" acid which is constant boiling and the usual concentrated acid from suppliers! Only make the rediculously strong stuff RFNA and WFNA as and when needed by distilling form H2SO4 etc (plenty of literature on these things)

Edit: NO2 is really interesting molecule since it forms N2O4 (colourless) when cooled or put under pressure (can be done in a nice glass syninge) of if expanded and heated it turns almost black when all of the molecules are in the NO2 state! really fun! The NO2 brown colour is actually due to an equilibrium between the two molecules. Liquid NO2 :. is actually N2O4 and is great fun to add to strong reducing agents...(it's reacted with hydrazine derivatives in rocket fuel, can be done more afely with aniline and NO2 gas!)

[Edited on 7-10-2008 by panziandi]

Jor - 7-10-2008 at 12:29

2 questions:

Why does biuret and other peptides form red complexes with copper? Ive never seen other colors than blue/green/purple with copper in the 2+ oxidation state.

What solvent/temperature/reaction conditions are needed in the HgSO4-catalysed hydrolysis of acetylene yielding acetaldehyde?

not_important - 7-10-2008 at 16:27

Quote:
Originally posted by Jor

What solvent/temperature/reaction conditions are needed in the HgSO4-catalysed hydrolysis of acetylene yielding acetaldehyde?


It's not hydrolysis, which implies the splitting apart of the reacting molecule, but addition

for lots of old patents on the process
http://tinyurl.com/46625e

more recent data from Hydrocarbon Chemistry by George A. Olah, Árpád Molnár - 2003

acetylene2acetaldehyde.png - 15kB

water in the manometer-woops

chemrox - 7-10-2008 at 20:38

I was calibrating my aspirator pump. I left the room and a sudden, I don't know what exactly, event caused my trap and my lines to load up with water. My manometer got water in it too. The question is, after I dry out the tubing, do I have to do anything to the mercury? What's the best way to dry the tube? Acetone?

Panache - 8-10-2008 at 04:22

Quote:
Originally posted by chemrox
I was calibrating my aspirator pump. I left the room and a sudden, I don't know what exactly, event caused my trap and my lines to load up with water. My manometer got water in it too. The question is, after I dry out the tubing, do I have to do anything to the mercury? What's the best way to dry the tube? Acetone?


You can only calibrate something that is used to measure, such as your manometer, but thats just being pedantic, lol. If your water is crap then you may wash your mercury with dilute nitric (1M) in a sep funnel to remove annoying salts but really its not necessary, your main source of error in this situation is the coarseness of the u-tube's internal diameter and this will overwhelm any error caused by anions dissolved in the mercury. Dry your tube in the oven i would think, if its contaminated with mercury wash it with dilute nitric also.

I have a question also, what does 'fused' mean in relation to ionic compounds, is it simply chunks formed from the melt? What generally are the properties of a fused cmp that make it different to a non fused one?

S.C. Wack - 8-10-2008 at 04:35

Mercuric salts and acetylene:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1021/ja01442a010

Fused generally means melted together.

not_important - 8-10-2008 at 06:41

Fusion of ionic compounds generally means fairly high temperatures, driving off all volatile substances such as water. Fused ZnCl2 would be an example, sodium acetate another. There's an implication that the compound itself is pretty stable to fusion.

Sometimes 'fused' relates to a method of preparation and level of purity, technical sodium sulfide as fused flakes. There's no standard on that, you need to know the terminology for each compound.

epeters - 9-10-2008 at 12:09

Quote:
Originally posted by Jor
2 questions:

Why does biuret and other peptides form red complexes with copper? Ive never seen other colors than blue/green/purple with copper in the 2+ oxidation state.

?


1. are you sure its 2+ copper?

2. other considerations for color:

the thickness of the surface material (if its a thin film) will cause only certain wavelengths to be reflected. this is the case in most oxides (put a penny in the oven and it will turn red at some point, blue, yellow, green, at others)

this is only a guess, but typically when metals are bound to peptides, they change the conformation of the peptide and the overall energy of the bonds.

Jor - 9-10-2008 at 13:24

I don't think it's a thin film, I think it's a soluble complex. But maybe you're right.

I was looking at my bottle of iodoform, and was thinking, comon there has to be something you can do with besides testing for acetaldehyde or methyl ketones, and decomposing it to give nice iodine and carbon wich destroys the test tube.

I had a try at diiodomethane. Take some of the beautiful glinstering crystals (didn't filter when making it, but extracted with DCM and evaporated, when i filter I get powder), added a large crystal of KI, a mL of water and next about 3mL of 85% phosphoric acid. My idea to generate HI in site, and reacting that with the CHI3, to form CH2I2 and I2. No success, just a golden/orange beautiful liquid, with those glinstering crystals in it.

Is it possible to make diiodomethane via iodoform, and how, not using HI , or even I2/Red P (wich I have both though).

Are their any other uses for iodoform?

Panache - 9-10-2008 at 15:48

Is a variac the best way to vary the temperature in a heating element?

Does anyone know how commercial vacuum lines/systems prevent the entire manifold from losing vacuum if one accidentally/intentionally opens the system to the atmosphere?

Also is there a quick no-brainer, non-destructive test to differentiate stainless from platinum. The item is a fine meshed electrode or sieve, i'm almost certain its not platinum but the mesh has been soldered onto the frame and very little distortion or discoloration exists in the mesh prompting my speculation it may not be stainless, also someone has spent a lot of time on making it....
It doesn't rust up after dipping in 30% hcl and allowing it to air dry. I don't want to heat it to melting point as the solder will melt off and i can't solder for shit so i would have to get it repaired...

[Edited on 9-10-2008 by Panache]

[Edited on 9-10-2008 by Panache]

not_important - 9-10-2008 at 16:03

Quote:
Originally posted by Jor...
Is it possible to make diiodomethane via iodoform, and how, not using HI , or even I2/Red P (wich I have both though).


Start with http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/orgsyn/prepContent.asp?prep=cv1... which has several other methods mentioned in the footnotes.

S.C. Wack - 9-10-2008 at 16:11

Quote:
Originally posted by Jor
Is it possible to make diiodomethane via iodoform


Like the acetaldehyde question, this is answered in the Systematic Organic Chemistry .djvu that no one reads. It is also in Adams' Organic Chemical Reagents, and some obscure thing known as Organic Syntheses. But why read when people will just spoonfeed you, eh?

[Edited on 9-10-2008 by S.C. Wack]

raiden - 9-10-2008 at 21:16

Does anyone know what happened to Frogfot's website?

Thankfully it has been retained on archive.org, but I have not seen the man post lately and he expressed no intention of shutting it down.

Jor - 10-10-2008 at 08:19

Quote:
Originally posted by S.C. Wack
Quote:
Originally posted by Jor
Is it possible to make diiodomethane via iodoform


Like the acetaldehyde question, this is answered in the Systematic Organic Chemistry .djvu that no one reads. It is also in Adams' Organic Chemical Reagents, and some obscure thing known as Organic Syntheses. But why read when people will just spoonfeed you, eh?

[Edited on 9-10-2008 by S.C. Wack]

Im sorry , but I can't open DJVU-files. Have to download the codec sometime.
I didn't know orgsyn upto now. Very good site!
Thank you , I will find it now.

Klute - 10-10-2008 at 08:52

I've just checke dthe French ref in the OrgSYn article on CH2I2, and it looks to me as if it's one of the most convinient ways of preparing methylene iodide, apart from the DCM/KI (the J. Chem. Soc. ref in the OrgSyn note seems wrong, leading to "Resolution of dl-trans-cyclopentane-1 : 3-dicarboxylic acid" . i'm surprised there isn't any more recent refs on the subject, I guess everyone likes playing with arsenious oxide (not me).

Partial Translation of Ann. Chim. Phys., , 53 (3), 313 (1858)

Quote:

Memoire on methylene iodide
by M. Alexandre BOUTLEROW
Professor of Chemistry at the University of Kasan


Considering that sodium ethoxide has a similar constitutuion to sodium hydroxide, I thought it would be interesting to compare the action of iodine on these two compounds, so I studied the action of this simple compound on the ethoxide.
When powdered iodine is added in portions to cristallized sodium ethoxide, a vigorous reaction immediatly occurs, followed by heat evolution: the mass liquifies and turns brown; but after a while, as soon as all the iodien has reacted, this coloration disappears. By continuing the addition of iodine, we fianlly obtain a thick and yellow magma.
For the complete decomposition of the ethoxide to occur, and the brown color indicating excess I2 to persists, more than one equivalent of iodine for each equivalent of ethoxide are required. When the mixture is distilled on a water bath, some alcohol is collected, containing a heavy oily compound which can be seperated by addition of water. When diluted with water, the distillation residu dissolves nearly entirely, leaving some iodoform. The aqueuse solution contains some sodium iodide and sodium formate, but no iodate. By evaporating this solution and distilling the inorganic residu with tartaric acid, some formic acid can be detected in the distillate, using a silver salt. At the same time the alcohol seems to be regenerated in this recation, that we can surely express by the following equation:
8 C4H5O2Na + 16 I = C2HNaO4 + 6C4H5O2H + 3 C2HI3 + 7NaI (?? apparently they hadn't worked out the structures completely yet!)

By using one equivalent of iodine for each equivalent of ethoxide, and by gradually distilling to near-dryness, a quite large amount of oil is obtained in the distillate, compared to the amount of iodoform that stays in the residu; on the other hand, the latter is found in exces if the yellow magma is directly diluted with water without been submitted to distillation. These observations seem to indicate that the oily compound is only a by-product from the action of sodium ethoxide on iodoform. I had to study this action.
On solid iodoform container in a large container, is added a mildly-concentrated solution of sodium ethoxide obtained by dissolution of sodium metal in a rather large volume of absolute ethanol. Brief warming in a hot water bath is needed to get the reaction started. The mixture quickly heats up to a vigorous reflux, with no gas evolution. Once the reaction is finished and the liquor is no longer alkaline, a new portion of ethoxide is added and the mixture is heated; these operations are repeated until 3 equivalents of ethoxide (based on the amount of sodium dissolved) are added. At this moment, the liquid is slightly basic, but remains so. It is heated for another few minutes, then diluted with water. A yellowish, milky solution is obtained, and after a moment a brown oily substance crashes out of solution. When the reaction is well performed, the oil contains little impurities; but is heating is excessive, or that a too alrge excess of ethoxide has been employed, the oily substance is contaminated with a brown decomposition product, pulveresent and insoluble in alcohol.
On the opposit, unreacetd iodoform remains if heating was insufficient or that too little ethoxide was added.
Exces alcali seems to prevent deposition of the product; the addition of a few drops of acid easily induces deposition. After 24h, all the oil has crashed out, and the aqueous solution become colorless. The oil is decanetd, washed and readily steam-distilled.
The compound thus obtained is identical to the oil obtained by the action of iodine on sodium ethoxide, as confirmed by elemental analysis. When distilled, it boils around 181°C, but is partially decomposed, loosing iodine. The distilled product is always colored, and during the distillation the head temperature increases as the residu darkens more and more.
Afetr having been distilled in steam and dried over fused calcium chloride, the compound thus obtained presents the following caracteristics: it is a yellowish oil, very refractive, possesing the surprising property of hardly wettening glass; it's smell is analogous to that of chloroform, and reminds taht of ethyl iodide, it taste is very sweet (!!). It the denser of all organic substances, it's density at 5°C equals 3.342; at the temperatur eof +2°C, it solidifies in large shiny shards, that only melt at +5°C. the solidification, once started, continues even at 3°C. During cristillazation, there is a very significant reduction of volume. It's dilatation coefficent is very high [...]. This compound is not atatcked by concentrated KOH or by hot mildly-concentrated nitric acid.
The analysis leads to te following structure:

C2H2I2,

which represents the methylene iodide [...].

[...]

A few months ago, M Brüning published in the Annalen der Chemie und Pharmacie, the results his work in M Strecker's laboratory, where he describs a product obtained by the action of ethanolic potash on iodoform. This product posses all the properties of methylene iodide: same density (3.345), same boiling point (181-182°C), same % of carbon and hydrogen obtained by titration. But the quantity of iodine found by M. Brüning is too small, which lead him to suggest the structure

C2H2I2O,

very unlikely for a condensation corresponding to 4 volumes of steam (?). Not having enough material at my disposition, I could not measure the vapor density which is very simialr for both structures. [...]

Wanting to investigate the variosu products formed at the same time as methylene iodide, I evaporated the aqueous solution decanted from the oil. After having checked it contained, apart from sodium iodide, salts of volatil organic acids, I distilled the residu with excess tartaric acid. The distille dsolution was strongly acidic, and droplets of oil where noticed on the surface. Neutralized with Ba(OH)2, it gave afetr evaporation a inorganic residu that I failed to cristallize. The carbon, hydrogena nd barium contents seem to indicate presence of volatils fattya cids of teh series CnHnO4.[...]
These results indicate beyond doubt the presence of fatty acids of considerable molecular weight, being at least valerianic acid. On the other side, we witnessed the presence of formic acid in the distillates. This synthetic formation of molecules having up to 10 or even 12 carbons by the reaction of two compounds which contain 2 and 4 carbons, where the temperature does not exceed 100°C, seemed to me as being worth mentionning.


[The rest of the article then details the decomposition of methylene iodide, it's reaction with Ag(OAc)2 to give (AcO)2CH2 and the authors attempst to isolate the diol HOCH2OH.... ]

[Edited on 10-10-2008 by Klute]

S.C. Wack - 10-10-2008 at 15:46

The Rhodium page that has the JCS article's procedure says page 1408 instead of 1400, though which page exactly this is on is unclear without looking at pdf. The page is at Erowid as usual and the preparation has been attempted here before in a thread with the title of Methylene Iodide.

Jor - 10-10-2008 at 16:21

Wow! That is a very dense liquid. I have never seen a liquid wich is denser than this, except for mercury. Pretty cool.

crazyboy - 10-10-2008 at 17:51

I'm looking for a West or Liebig condenser which are pretty much the same right?

I need it for a 24/40 basic distillation set up what is a good standard length 200mm, 300mm, 400mm or 600mm?

I realize the longer ones will be more efficient but which one is most practical?

Picric-A - 10-10-2008 at 23:19

I find west condensers are better for reflux whilst liebig's are better for distillations.
When distilling with a West the solvent gets stuck in the bulbs and needs to be inverted at the end which gets annoying...

kclo4 - 11-10-2008 at 22:20

isn't the difference between as west and a Liebig the amount of water they hold for cooling?
Picric-A, It sounds like you are thinking of a Allihn Condenser. Your not supposed to use those for distillations.


The most practical length depends on what you are using it for, such as the boiling point of the chemical you are using and the temperature of the water you are using it for. So this question is hard to answer since we don't know what you are dealing with.

Personally, I wish I had bought a 400mm Liebig instead of my 200mm Liebig, but it works well enough for what i use it for that I haven't bought a 400mm yet.

chief - 12-10-2008 at 00:07

Mixing HMnO4 and HClO3 : What to expect ?? Do those 2 mix and co-exist, or gives it trouble, poison and explosion ? Some HCl would also be present, from the Chlorate-impurities ...
Plan would be: Ba(MnO4)2 + Ba(ClO3)2 + H2SO4(dilute); maybe instead of the Ba-compounds the sodium-versions ...

S.C. Wack - 12-10-2008 at 22:37

I have a couple Wests with small bulbs at each end, but this only affects the condenser water.

This is the acetylene article that goes with the DOI link that I posted earlier.

Attachment: jacs_43_2071_1921.pdf (739kB)
This file has been downloaded 846 times


PRESSURE IN A SEALED VESSEL PROBLEM

mechem - 13-10-2008 at 10:21

IF 1-LITER OF WATER IS HEATED TO 300 DEG-C INSIDE A 2-LITER CAPACITY SEALED VESSEL WHAT PRESSURE WOULD IT REACH INSIDE THE VESSEL.

solo - 13-10-2008 at 10:28

This should have been posted in the short question thread........solo

Gas Law

PV = nRT

\ P is the absolute pressure of the gas,
\ V is the volume of the gas,
\ n is the number of moles of gas,
\ R is the universal gas constant,
\ T is the absolute temperature.


........see,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law

crazyboy - 13-10-2008 at 17:01

I mixed about 15mls acetone with 15mls 98% sulfuric acid then it was stirred gently and after 3 minutes 20mls water was added after a few minutes a strong minty/alcoholic odor different from acetone or sulfuric acid was evident. Any idea what this is?

kclo4 - 13-10-2008 at 17:47

I'm not to sure what it is but H2SO4 catalysis acetone to condense, eventually forming Mesitylene, and probably some other stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesitylene

Oh! isn't Phorone formed by the condensation of acetone? If so, I bet it could be that or something similar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorone
I think that would be fun to make!

Formatik - 13-10-2008 at 18:07

Mixing acetone with H2SO4 under cooling is said to form single-basic "mesitylsulfuric acid" C3H5.SO3H (apparently 1,3-propane sultone, or 3-hydroxy-1-propanesulfonic acid gamma-sultone) mentioned in Hlasiwetz, J. 1856, 487. Sultone is the only empirical formula I've been able to find that matches up to that given above. It could be a mesitylsulfonic acid perhaps.

According to the article below, 1,3-propane sultone is genotoxic, directly alkylating and carcinogenic. http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S037842740400083...

Kane (P. 44, 479) mentions mixing without cooling of 2 vol. acetone with 1 vol. H2SO4 gives mesitylsulfuric acid of the formula C6H10O.H2SO4, the double basic. Using 1 vol. acetone and 2 vols H2SO4 forms "Hypermesitylsulfuric acid", C3H6O.H2SO4.

Distilling acetone with conc. H2SO4 is known to form 1,3,5-trimethylbenzene C9H12 aka mesitylene, as 3 H2O is removed. As by-products are: propylene, 1,2,3,5-tetramethylbenzene, phorone, mesityl oxide, acetic acid and a hydrocarbon C15H20 (Bp. 280 to 282 deg) and an oil which boils at 183-5 deg. with the formula of C14H22O (Orndorff, Young, Am. 15, 255). The references are from Beilstein.

[Edited on 13-10-2008 by Formatik]

Quick question about palladium on carbon (pd/c)

n_oromarr - 15-10-2008 at 03:02

Hello everyone. This looks to be a really great website.

I was reading Vogels and in the section on palladium/carbon preparation it mentions that the activated carbon is suspended in 10% nitric acid while heating to prepare it.

I thought this was interesting.

As we all know, HN03 is sometimes difficult for some of us to get.
I was wondering if another acid would work, such as HCL or H2SO4?

Thanks for any info you can offer up.

Norman

Picric-A - 15-10-2008 at 12:01

I plan on distilling some ether. up till now i ave always used crude methods of distilling which never condense all (involving heating a flask full of ether and passing vapours into a test tube submurged in ice)
Now i have proper quickfit apparatus i plan on distilling with that however i see a problem. the water comming out the tap will be too warm to condense the vapours properly...
What can i use to pump cold water around the condenser?
would some aquarium pump work and if so could someone please reccomend a fairly cheao one to me?
How cold can these things actually go? as in, could i pump liquids at -5 degrees C around it or wouldnt it work?
Thanks,

Panache - 15-10-2008 at 19:16

Quote:
Originally posted by Picric-A
I plan on distilling some ether. up till now i ave always used crude methods of distilling which never condense all (involving heating a flask full of ether and passing vapours into a test tube submurged in ice)
Now i have proper quickfit apparatus i plan on distilling with that however i see a problem. the water comming out the tap will be too warm to condense the vapours properly...
What can i use to pump cold water around the condenser?
would some aquarium pump work and if so could someone please reccomend a fairly cheao one to me?
How cold can these things actually go? as in, could i pump liquids at -5 degrees C around it or wouldnt it work?
Thanks,


pond pumps from your local hardware for around $10 in a bucket of ice water works fine, however possible problems you may encounter are
1) if your bucket is on the ground, your condenser on the bench or higher, these cheap pumps may not have the 'head' of pressure to run, simply raise the bucket higher
2)if you're using an ether condenser these pumps can run then at only very low flow rates because of the back pressure from the thin internally coiled condenser, in this case you may have to see how it goes, ether does not require much cooling/unit vol vapour and if your condenser is longish you will be fine. If its a jacketed condenser this point is irrelevant
3)the pumps have a tendency to chew out their impellers from time to time, in australia there are two brands with 3 year replacement warranties, buy these if you have them, but maintenance-wise just take the thing apart between uses to check for entangled things in the impeller it will affect it's already pathetic capacity. I have had them at -10 without a fuss before, using a alcohol/water mix, most of them are acrylate construction and any decent solvent will turn it into the blob really quickly, so keep your water water.

Oxidation of Eugenol ref

kalacrow - 16-10-2008 at 08:24

Does anyone have a ref to the actual procedure to oxidize eugenol to vanillin, as used in the good 'ol days to make synthetic vanillin?

solo - 16-10-2008 at 09:03

EUGENOL (allyl guaiacol, eugenic acid), C10H1202,anodoriferous principle; it is the chief constituent of oil of cloves, and occurs in many other essential oils. It can be synthetically prepared by the reduction of coniferyl alcohol, (HO) (CH 3 O) C6H3 CH :CH CH20H, which occurs in combination with glucose in the glucoside coniferin, C16H2208. It is a colourless oil boiling at 247° C., and having a spicy odour. On oxidation with potassium permanganate it gives homovanillin, vanillin, &c.; with chromic acid in acetic acid solution it is converted into carbon dioxide and acetic acid, whilst nitric acid oxidizes it to oxalic acid. By the action of alkalis it is converted into iso-eugenol, which on oxidation yields vanillin, the odorous principle of vanilla. This transformation of allyl phenols into propenyl phenols is very general (see Ber., 1889, 22, p. 2747; 1890, 23, p. 862). Alkali fusion of eugenol gives protocatechuic acid. The amount of eugenol in oil of cloves can be estimated by acetylation, in presence of pyridine (A. Verley and Fr. Baelsing, Ber., 1901, 34, p. 3359). Chavibetol, an isomer of eugenol, occurs in the ethereal oil obtained from Piper betle. The structural relations are: nOCH OH / OH 3 f IOCH3 ./11 ?? CHICH:CHa CI I:CH CH3 Eugenol. Iso eugenol


..........source,

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Eugenol

kalacrow - 16-10-2008 at 13:57

Thanks.. I have that ref :)

What I am looking for is an account of the lab or industrial process to successfully oxidize eugenol to vanillin in high yield, with all particular conditions and procedures If someone could post a journal ref or synthesis account, that would be very appreciated!

Panache - 16-10-2008 at 15:59

Quote:
Originally posted by solo
EUGENOL (allyl guaiacol, eugenic acid), C10H1202,anodoriferous principle; i On oxidation with potassium permanganate it gives homovanillin, vanillin, &c.; ...... By the action of alkalis it is converted into iso-eugenol, which on oxidation yields vanillin, the odorous principle of vanilla. ........

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Eugenol


the answers are there, just in the wrong order

an aside from the same quote
'....Alkali fusion of eugenol gives protocatechuic acid...'
Yeah right!! what in 0.0003% yield. I did remember reading years ago about a NaOH/ALCl3 melt (~180C) to which eugenol was dripping into to demethylate, that sounded like awesome fun. Apparently this melt was a common way of demethylating aryl ethers back when the first depression seemed like it could never happen....

solo - 16-10-2008 at 17:12

REFERENCES

Ber., 1889, 22, p. 2747; 1890, 23, p. 862
A. Verley and Fr. Baelsing, Ber., 1901, 34, p. 3359

http://ifile.it/sr68jlu

kalacrow - 16-10-2008 at 21:56

Oof. Thanks! I'll have to do some cutting and pasting... ;)

Improving yield for ester ---> amide

sonogashira - 19-10-2008 at 13:36

With a sterically hindered (or otherwise unreactive) ester ---> amide conversion is there any catalysts etc. that can be added to the conc. NH3 to improve yield?

[Edited on 19-10-2008 by sonogashira]

Klute - 19-10-2008 at 14:40

DMAP is said to be very effective, it works very well for b-ketoesters, yielding the amides with no enamine formation. There is an article on the subject in the ref forum (pdf )
Otherwise I think basic catalyst are the most suited, such as sodium methoxide, tertiary amines (pyridine: here), etc.

Cyanide anion seems to be usefull too:

Cyanide as an Efficient and Mild Catalyst in the Aminolysis of Esters
Thomas Hogberg et al.
J. Org. Chem.;; 52(10), 2033-2036 (1987)
DOI: 10.1021/jo00386a025

Abstract:

Cyanide anion was found to be a versatile catalyst in the aminolysis of nonactivated esters. A comparative
study on various catalysts, including (dimethylamino)pyridine, 2-hydroxypyridine, imidazole, and sodium cyanide,
in the ammonolysis of ethyl (S)-l-ethyl-2-pyrrolidinecarboxylat(1e ) in methanol showed sodium cyanide to be
the superior catalyst. Furthermore, the reaction was completely stereoconservative; i.e., less than 1% racemization
occurred. Cyanide ion also proved to be an efficient catalyst in the transesterification with the solvent. Comparative
studies on 1, ethyl benzoate (4), ethyl 3-phenylpropionate (51, and ethyl phenoxyacetate (6) in aminolysis with
ammonia, methylamine, and dimethylamine in methanol showed cyanide to be a general catalyst. The reactivity
order for various esters was found to be MeNHz > NHS > Me2NH.

Apaprently, some modified zeolites can also be used (but who really uses them?!) Acylation of amines by aminolysis of esters over H-ZSM-5 catalyst

[Edited on 20-10-2008 by Klute]

sonogashira - 19-10-2008 at 16:21

Thanks klute that looks like a really interesting paper. I can only see the first page but it looks like they use NH3 in methanol. I wonder if the cyanide can be added to an aqueous solution instead?... probably not so well : /

[Edited on 20-10-2008 by sonogashira]

Klute - 20-10-2008 at 00:17

It might cause some hydrolysis I think, or at least perturb the equilibrium.. Depending on your substrate, I would gas the neat ester with dry NH3, avoiding solvent. As they said transesterification can occur, so if your ester isn't the methyl or t-butyl, you could also dissolve your ester in MeOh, add the catalyst, and then gas with NH3 until saturation: this way part of your ester will convert to the more recative methyl ester, and then go through aminolysis. Dry NH3 is that much of a hassle at a small scale.

stoichiometric_steve - 20-10-2008 at 01:33

Is there any other way to cleave a primary amide to the parent acid besides the use of Alcoholates, Hydroxides?

Formatik - 20-10-2008 at 02:11

What do aqua regia or NOCl and ethanol yield?

Picric-A - 20-10-2008 at 05:30

Formatik- most probably an explosion but otherwise i would guess if dilute eough the HNO3 may oxidise the EtOH to acetaldhyde or ethanoic acid...

panziandi - 20-10-2008 at 07:53

I'd expect an explosion or similar, with copious evolution of NOx, ethyl and methyl chlorides (resulting from C-C cleavage which often results from excessive oxidations), along with the obvious acetic acid and likely CO2. Oh and don't forget a dead or injured chemist and general chaos! ;)

Formatik - 20-10-2008 at 13:07

I expected a general oxidation at the least. An explosion at worst, possibly with large amounts. Some website I've found claims an alkyl nitrate is produced, with NO2 fumes these can oxidize violently:

Quote:
Aqua regia is extremely corrosive. It must never be allowed to come in contact with ethanol or other alcohols as it forms alkyl nitrates, which may decompose violently after an unpredictable induction period of a few seconds to many hours.


http://www.chem.monash.edu.au/safety/safety-manual/

But I'm wondering if something else may be produced on the side, e.g. diazoethoxane or EtClO, both around as dangerous as NCl3.

dry ethanol in condensation reax

chemrox - 21-10-2008 at 11:04

I'm reacting an ester with an aromtic amine. I don't think it would help to be more specific in this case. The solvent called for is ethanol and the resultant will be a diethyl ketal as an intermediate. The short question is, how "dry" is dry in this case? Can I use the dry ethanol I have out of the bottle or should I dry it further? CaO distillation?

Thanks,
CRX

text on zeolites

chemrox - 21-10-2008 at 12:12

To quoate my friend Klute, "who really uses them?" I'm looking for a text or article that covers making modified zeolites for synthetic applications. (should I have posted this in refs?)
Thanks,
CRX

crazyboy - 21-10-2008 at 17:56

I have a quick distillation question. How would I extract a chemical with a known boiling point from several with unknown boiling point.

EX: I have window cleaner which contains an unknown percent of (X) say between 5-15% chemical (X) boils at 170C

To isolate (X) I would heat it below 170 and discard all that comes over then heat to 170 save all that comes over and what comes over at 170 is fairly pure (X) right?

I get the theory but are there any technical issues or problems with this?

sparkgap - 21-10-2008 at 18:44

Well, how sure are you that your known compound won't form an azeotrope with the other components of your mix? Try finding the MSDS of your window cleaner so you don't have to do much guesswork.

sparky (~_~)

497 - 21-10-2008 at 19:33

Just a quick question that I haven't haven't found the answer to. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place.

Is there a reaction between N2O and N2O4, especially in high pressure situations? It seems so simple, you would think it wouldn't be hard to find. Every search is swamped with stuff about manufacture of N2O or HNO3, etc. Thanks.

Ephoton - 22-10-2008 at 02:54

I would love to know about drying ethylacetate for use in nitrile condensation. I have no access to phosphorous pentoxide is there another way.

also is azeotropicaly formed ethoxide ok for the catylist.

thanx for any help.

solo - 22-10-2008 at 06:32

In an aromatic aldehyde , is there a way to remove the aldehyde end group and substitute for an amine group? I have been looking, but most of the reactions will leave the carbon and add the amine ........solo

Picric-A - 22-10-2008 at 07:46

I need to make some Al2O3 for use as a catalyst.
What is the best way i go about doing this?
I thought-
Dehydration of Al(OH)3
Decomposition of Al(NO3)3
Melt Al metal and keep it molten for a while until sufficient oxide builds up. Any ideas on how to seperate the Al/Al2O3 mix?
Thanks!

Sauron - 22-10-2008 at 08:15

Hopefully this is a short question. I am frustrated trying to find lit. on the preparation of ethyl (or methyl) 3-aminocrotonate, aka ethyl beta-aminocrotonate, the enamine which I think forms from acetoacetic ester and NH3.

It is commercially available, but costly compared to ethyl acetoacetate (8X or so).

If someone could point me at a prep, I'd be grateful.

Not in Merck
Not in Org Syn
Not in ACS Journals that I can see (via SE)
Google unhelpful

I am off to try RSC now.

No luck

I guess saturating ethyl or methyl acetoacetate in benzene or toluene and azeotroping out the water with a Dean-Stark trap ought to do it.


[Edited on 23-10-2008 by Sauron]

chemrox - 22-10-2008 at 11:57

Have you gone to Beilsteins?

sonogashira - 22-10-2008 at 12:42

The sigma-aldrich website gives this beilstein reference:

Beil. 3,II,414


I don't have access to it though

12AX7 - 22-10-2008 at 13:03

Quote:
Originally posted by Picric-A
I need to make some Al2O3 for use as a catalyst.
What is the best way i go about doing this?
I thought-
Dehydration of Al(OH)3
Decomposition of Al(NO3)3
Melt Al metal and keep it molten for a while until sufficient oxide builds up. Any ideas on how to seperate the Al/Al2O3 mix?
Thanks!


Molten aluminum (i.e., at ca. 600-700°C) with adherent oxides, generally known as white dross, breaks up under a molten salt flux to yield a gray powdery product, which is probably not very active. Metal yield is quite good however, so it's a good plan if you wish to reclaim your aluminum. (This includes pop cans, which produce considerable oxides when melted in air.)

Brauer (see the SMDB library) suggests dehydrating hydrargyllite at 500-600°C. Hydrargyllite is precipitated from a concentrated sodium aluminate solution by leaving it to rest for several weeks. The precipitate is washed until no alkalinity remains.

Tim

kclo4 - 22-10-2008 at 16:37

After thinking about your question and trying to find a way to make it I'm now curious if it could be made by acidifying Sodium Aluminate?

"Pure sodium aluminate (anhydrous) is a white crystalline solid having a formula variously given as NaAlO2, Na2O · Al2O3, or Na2Al2O4."
Given that it is written as Na2O · Al2O3 when anhydrous you'd think adding HCl would produce H2O and Al2O3 instead of the Oxide. Much like how Sodium Silicate( Na2SiO3) forms Silicon Dioxide. Of course, they are completely different elements, but may still apply.

Na2Al2O4 + 2 HCl = 2NaCl + Al2O3 + H2O.

for some reason I doubt this, but I guess its possible since the reaction doesn't even contain enough water to produce Al(OH)3. It may form, but I believe Al2O3 would also form.

However, if this is for a catalyst why not produce and use Silica gel instead?
NaOH and Sand react really easily with a propane torch in a Iron crucible. Then just acidify and allow it to fall out of solution.

Sauron - 22-10-2008 at 19:07

I have not looked in Beilstein because (1) I have no online access and (2) the reference is to the second supplement not the Haptwerk, and I have only the Haptwerk.

Anyway I finally found references in a J Org Chem paper, they cited a Michaelis paper in Annalen 366 and a paper by Arthur Cope and coworker in JACK 67. As I surmised the 3-aminoester is prepared by bubbling anhydrous ammonia into neat acetoacetic ester for 5 hours (on a 100 g basis). In first hour temp rises to 40 C and then further rise is checked with cooling and held at 35-40 C. Then 100 ml Et2O is added, and the water formed in the reaction is seperated and discarded. The ether is rotavaped off and the residue distilled in vacuo. Yield 90%.

I will post the Cope paper in my CCl3Br thread for anyone who wants the physical constants etc.

In most cases JACS and JOC papers referring to this reagent just say "purchased from such and so" which is highly annoying when one is looking for preparative details...



[Edited on 23-10-2008 by Sauron]

not_important - 22-10-2008 at 21:41

Quote:
Originally posted by kclo4
After thinking about your question and trying to find a way to make it I'm now curious if it could be made by acidifying Sodium Aluminate?

"Pure sodium aluminate (anhydrous) is a white crystalline solid having a formula variously given as NaAlO2, Na2O · Al2O3, or Na2Al2O4."...


Two different sources/forms of saodium aluminate. The one you reference is the dry form from high temperature reaction, the previous one uses an aqueous solution from reacting concentrated NaOH with Al(OH)3, AlO(OH), or crude open structure Al2O3.

Picric-A - 22-10-2008 at 22:57

I am mostly using the Al2O3 for cracking of hydrocarbons and i wasnt sure if SiO2 would work for this aswel.
The molten aluminium is a good way to get oxide but the oxide is hold together by molten aluminium so is difficult to get the plain oxide.
I will try the Sodium aluminate method, I will make it by dissolving Al in dilute NaOH till neutral then try acidify. I am away form my lab tho so i cant do it until around sunday,
thanks for the help!

not_important - 22-10-2008 at 23:44

You'll want fairly strong NaOH, and CO2 is acid enough to force Al(OH)3 out of the aluminate solution.

Klute - 23-10-2008 at 03:40

STEVE: 10-15 HCl or 20% H2SO4 and several hours of reflux works very well for cleaving primary amides. Adding a bit of methanol to mix layers helps. This also works with secondary amides to some extent (depending on the substituants, might need longer reflux)


CHEMROX: I would use absolute EtOH, if you have a freshly opened bottle it should fine, otherwise just keep the EtOH over molecular seives overnight and transfert by canula to avoid contact with atmospher. It doesn't need to rigorously dry, but the dryer the better. Traces of ethoxide could work as a catalyst if this is an aminolysis, but yu cn't dry the EtOH with sodium or NaH as the formed NaOh will cause some hydrolysis of the ester.


SOLO: Do you mean replacing Ar-CHO by Ar-NH2? The only I see if forming amide, and doing a hofman degradation... Not the best yields I guess.

EPHOTON: Have you acces to Molecualr seives? They should do the trick after purifying the ester according to conventional way. CaO could work out well enough if your ester has been efficiently pre-dried. I doubt azeotropically formed ethoxide (you well refluxing ethanol, NaOh and toluene I suppose?) will work, as even traces of NaOH will cleave the ester, form water that forms more NaOh, which saponifies more ethoxide, etc. Only freshly prepared alkoxide from sodium or NaH would worked here IMHO, even solid NaOEt woudn't be a good option. If you really can't acces any of these two, you might want to look into magnesium ethoxide, either used directly (if possible, check the litt, as alkali and alkali-earth alkoxides have in some case very different properties), or used to make sodium ethoxide via metathesis.

[Edited on 23-10-2008 by Klute]

TDCFMOG - 24-10-2008 at 01:40

I have a Kimax beaker with a "bump" on the rim.
It doesn't look like there is a bubble inside it, but I'm not sure if it's safe to heat it on a good hotplate.
Should it be fine or should I play it safe and just use it for transferring liquids?


Picric-A - 24-10-2008 at 03:01

Good brands like pex, Kimax ect... use UV to make sure there are no bubbles in the beakers/test tubes ect...
I doubt this is a gas bubble probably just a little exess glass that was left over in the forming process.
If in doubt get a small hammer and lightly tap on the bubble. If it was air it would break easily.

Ephoton - 25-10-2008 at 04:00

thanx klute ;).
I guess exust valves are the go then as we can all get them.

why do they only reference boric anhydride as a drying agent for formic acid.

surely it could be used for other substances.

ps

tapping glass with a hammer is not wise.

just use the glass with something harmless for the first few times to test it.

[Edited on 25-10-2008 by Ephoton]

kclo4 - 25-10-2008 at 17:19

They probably state to use Boric anhydride; B2O3, for drying Formic acid because other compounds react or decompose formic acid. While B2O3 chemically reacts with the water, making it impossible for it to get sucked up by the formic acid again.
I'm sure other substances can dry it, but at the moment I can't think of any decent ones and Boric acid is easy available and can be turned into B2O3 with out much hassle by simply heating it.

Ephoton - 25-10-2008 at 18:20

thanx for the response kclo4.
what I ment was why do we never hear of boric anhydride being used for other things.

for instance surely it could be used to aquire glaciel acetic acid.

or even dry ethyl acetate.

[Edited on 26-10-2008 by Ephoton]

kclo4 - 25-10-2008 at 18:26

Oh! Well, Acetic acid can be dehydrated with sulfuric acid with out decomposing and I think in the lab H2SO4 is easier to use for drying then B2O3. The reason for this is probably because "ALL" labs will have concentrated sulfuric acid, while they may not stock B2O3. It also probably takes a significantly longer time for all of the B2O3 to hydrate to form boric acid. Those are my guesses anyways. I wonder how well B2O3 would work with dehydrating things like nitric acid, sulfuric acid, etc?

Also I believe formic acid is turned into its anhydride; carbon monoxide, when it is mixed with concentrated sulfuric acid. At least according the the Wikipedia on Carbon monoxide "CO is the anhydride of formic acid. As such it is conveniently produced by the dehydration of formic acid, for example with sulfuric acid."

So, I guess they had to improvise and use something not so common.

Panache - 26-10-2008 at 15:29

how would one assess what voltage a globe was designed for in the absences of any markings on the globe or box, i have already blown two, quite spectacular however they are old and rare and i'd rather not fuck them up.

solo - 26-10-2008 at 21:18

I've been looking for a way to separate glacial acetic acid from acetic anhydride.....as it seems regular distillation will not do it....any suggestions?

kclo4 - 26-10-2008 at 21:24

Just some ideas I'd consider:
a solvent like chloroform or Toluene to dissolve the acetic anhydride and leave the acetic acid?

Does Zinc react with Acetic anhydride? I'm pretty sure it does with Acetic acid.

[Edited on 26-10-2008 by kclo4]

solo - 26-10-2008 at 21:32

Quote:
Originally posted by kclo4
Just some ideas I'd consider:
a solvent like chloroform or Toluene to dissolve the acetic anhydride and leave the acetic acid?

Does Zinc react with Acetic anhydride? I'm pretty sure it does with Acetic acid.

[Edited on 26-10-2008 by kclo4]


The idea is to recover the acetic anhydride....I can efford to loose the acetic acid ...so maybe adding zinc to the solution would bind the acetic (GAA) and leave the acetic anhydride (AA)alone.....will need to check see if zinc doesn't also react with AA....... but you are right about the zinc and acidic acid

"The zinc would be oxidized, forming hydrogen gas and dissolving the zinc:"

Zn(s) + 2 CH3COOH(aq) ---> 2 CH3COO-(aq) + Zn2+(aq) + H2(g)

.......................source,

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_happens_when_zinc_reacts_with...

.....................solo


[Edited on 26-10-2008 by solo]

12AX7 - 26-10-2008 at 21:52

Ah, but realize the equation specifies aqueous. Acetic solution is plenty ionic to dissolve and react and all, but as it approaches 100% Ac2O, will it remain so?

Tim

solo - 26-10-2008 at 21:57

Looking at the physical properties of both I found the melting point of acetic acid to be 16.5 C where as the MP of acetic anhydride is -73.1C hence I will place a sample solution in the freezer and just pour out my acetic anhydride and leave the GAA .....it seems simple enough...I wish I would refer to the basic properties of compounds in question to figure out their manipulation something I often overlook, .....live and learn......solo

Nicodem - 27-10-2008 at 00:09

Quote:
Originally posted by solo
I've been looking for a way to separate glacial acetic acid from acetic anhydride.....as it seems regular distillation will not do it....any suggestions?

Why would distillation not work? I'm quite convinced you don't need any fancy distillation columns to separate such two compounds with boiling points having a difference of 22K. A regular ~50cm column packed with whatever should do. Probably even a simple Vigreux column would work to some extent.

Also, you can not freeze out acetic acid since the mp is depressed in the presence of acetic anhydride (or any other solvent miscible with acetic acid). Even if part of acetic acid freezes it will not be all of it.

Zinc powder does dissolve in pure acetic acid at the reflux temperature, but it does so very slowly (it takes a few hours). I don't know how it would behave in the presence of acetic anhydride though. It is quite possible that acetic anhydride gets reduced by zinc.

Quote:
Originally posted by Panache
how would one assess what voltage a globe was designed for in the absences of any markings on the globe or box, i have already blown two, quite spectacular however they are old and rare and i'd rather not fuck them up.

I assume that by "globe" you mean a wolfram lamp or something like that? In such case you could measure the conductivity and estimate/deduce what power should it nominally be (from the size or function). From the conductivity you could then establish the power if it would not be for the property of wolfram to have positive thermal conductivity drop. The equation is otherwise:
Sqr(U) = P * R (from P = U^2 / R)
(for example, if R = 100ohm and P = 60W then U = 77V)

But since this would give you a very wrong result due to the before mentioned reason, you should get a correlation factor by doing the same conductivity measurement with a lamp of known P and U parameters. Of course, first do tests on a lower U than the calculated one.
Assuming you do have an electricity multimeter...

[Edited on 27/10/2008 by Nicodem]

Picric-A - 27-10-2008 at 12:58

After making trichloromethane from the all too famous Haloform reaction i am left with lots of Sodium acetate whihc i would prefere to keep to make Methane rather than throw away.
My problem is if there is any exess NaOH in there when i am boiling it down to a powder it would react.
I thoght if i add HCl to the spent mix to convert any remainding NaOH to NaCl then i could seperate the two salts. The only problem is they have relitivly similar solubility and i am not too good at recrystallisation.
Is there any other way i could get pure sodium acetate out?
thanks!

kclo4 - 27-10-2008 at 16:01

Quote:
My problem is if there is any excess NaOH in there when i am boiling it down to a powder it would react.


Are you sure it will decarboxylate that those temperatures?

Think about other possible acids such as sulfuric, etc. The most obvious one here to add would be to just add vinegar!

Picric-A - 27-10-2008 at 16:30

it probably wouldnt decarboxylate but it would give impure acetate...
That is a very good point!

Formatik - 27-10-2008 at 23:18

If you add a mineral acid like HCl to sodium acetate, then it's the stronger acid and will displace the -CH3COO. Acetic acid and NaCl form. The same thing happens when H2SO4 is added to NaCl.

Adding AcOH sounds like a good suggestion. Add it until the solution is neutral (test with litmus paper).

Picric-A - 28-10-2008 at 02:02

@Formatik- yes it is true that adding HCl to pure sodium acetate will release acetic acid but i am talking about adding it to sodium acetate with NaOH so it would for the sodium chloride instead of displacing the acid.
And yes i am probably going to use the acetic acid method.
Maybe this could be a method of making formates, formamide easily...
EtOH + CaOCl --> Calcium formate. Calcium formate + H3PO4 --> formic acid

Oh and when you start with acetone and CaOCl it produces calcium acetate... that can be heated to decomp to yield more acetone...

Just a thought.... and i guess impure methylated spirit could be used... and of course you would get plenty of chloroform... :D



[Edited on 28-10-2008 by Picric-A]

bobpage - 28-10-2008 at 04:50

What happens when dodecyl hydrogen sulfate is reacted with Ca(OCl)2? Thanks!

Nicodem - 28-10-2008 at 05:23

Quote:
Originally posted by bobpage
What happens when dodecyl hydrogen sulfate is reacted with Ca(OCl)2? Thanks!

I assume you are talking about an aqueous solution at room temperature? This must be specified or else the answer can be completely different.
Dodecyl hydrogen sulfate is a relatively strong acid in water solution while HClO is a weak acid (pKa=7.46) thus a proton exchange occurs between the dodecyl hydrogen sulfate and chlorate(I) anions. This results in formation of HClO in protonation equilibrium (the solution containing also the solvated ions: Ca2+ cations and dodecyl sulfate anions). What further happens to HClO is a matter of reaction conditions. This can form further equilibriums depending on the T, concentration, pH and presence of other species. For example, at higher T and/or lower pH the HClO<->Cl2O+H2O equilibrium becomes important as well as further disproportionation of Cl2O to Cl2, ClO2 and other chlorine oxides. If chloride ions are also present (for example, by using CaCl(OCl) instead Ca(OCl)2) the HClO gets reduced immediately as it forms to Cl2. The oxidation of dodecyl sulfate anions would only come into play at higher temperatures in the presence of light trough radical mechanisms (polar mechanisms are unlikely unless the hydrolysis to dodecyl alcohol happens first).

Formatik - 28-10-2008 at 16:00

Quote:
Originally posted by Picric-A
@Formatik- yes it is true that adding HCl to pure sodium acetate will release acetic acid but i am talking about adding it to sodium acetate with NaOH so it would for the sodium chloride instead of displacing the acid.


Right. As long as you know how much NaOH is in there and how much HCl it needs to be neutral this wouldn't have been a problem.

Baphomet - 28-10-2008 at 22:55

Regarding GAA, has anyone tried gassing Sodium Acetate with dried HCl instead of mixing with aqueous? This would not introduce water, so theoretically you'd end up with GAA + salt, and distillation would result in pure GAA.. unless some byproducts are formed when using 100% HCl?

Nicodem - 29-10-2008 at 00:16

Quote:
Originally posted by Baphomet
Regarding GAA, has anyone tried gassing Sodium Acetate with dried HCl instead of mixing with aqueous? This would not introduce water, so theoretically you'd end up with GAA + salt, and distillation would result in pure GAA.. unless some byproducts are formed when using 100% HCl?

I guess sodium acetate trihydrate should be able to react with gaseous HCl since once the surface reacts there will form some acetic acid slightly diluted from hydration water and thus work as reaction medium for further HCl absorption. Probably even anhydrous sodium acetate could do, but making the anhydrous salt is not so straightforward. The only problem is that once you distil out the liquid you would end up with somewhat diluted (~55%) acetic acid containing lots with HCl. Perhaps you could concentrate it somewhat by fractionation with a good column, but this would not remove the HCl. HCl should be removed by adding some sodium acetate, distil again and only then fractionate. I think using H2SO4 or H3PO4 would be more rational work-wise.

bobpage - 29-10-2008 at 01:08

Quote:
Originally posted by Nicodem
What further happens to HClO is a matter of reaction conditions. This can form further equilibriums depending on the T, concentration, pH and presence of other species. For example, at higher T and/or lower pH the HClO<->Cl2O+H2O equilibrium becomes important as well as further disproportionation of Cl2O to Cl2, ClO2 and other chlorine oxides. If chloride ions are also present (for example, by using CaCl(OCl) instead Ca(OCl)2) the HClO gets reduced immediately as it forms to Cl2. The oxidation of dodecyl sulfate anions would only come into play at higher temperatures in the presence of light trough radical mechanisms (polar mechanisms are unlikely unless the hydrolysis to dodecyl alcohol happens first).


Thanks, that's the part I was having trouble with!

Panache - 30-10-2008 at 17:14

What distillation columns have people had success with under high vacuum? I'm using a perkin triangle to exclude forerun and temperature control is normally my method for adjusting the reflux ratio (not the most ideal), however i can add in a cold-finger on top of the column if necessary.

Also dmcs (dimethylchlorosilane, a silalising reagent) treated glass wool appears to be used preferentially in analytical procedures over standard glass wool, does anyone know why?

[Edited on 30-10-2008 by Panache]

Klute - 31-10-2008 at 01:26

I guess excessive silanol concentration on the glass wool would increase the acidity, which could cause side reactions during sensitive distn. If completly silylated, the glass would be much less polar, and would have a much weaker influence. To some extent, the silanol groups could also modify the heat of vaporisation of polar compounds, as the hydrogen links would have to be broken before complete vaporasition, although I think that would be pretty minimal..

I have always used vigreux columns for vacuum fractionnations, but then again I have never needed very picky seperations, and rarely use very high vacuum (<0.1 torr) distillations. I prefer column chromatography.

Panache - 31-10-2008 at 02:28

Quote:
Originally posted by Klute
I guess excessive silanol concentration on the glass wool would increase the acidity, which could cause side reactions during sensitive distn. If completly silylated, the glass would be much less polar, and would have a much weaker influence. To some extent, the silanol groups could also modify the heat of vaporisation of polar compounds, as the hydrogen links would have to be broken before complete vaporasition, although I think that would be pretty minimal..


Well amongst the various bits of information i managed to track down was a one line explanation that for analytical work dcms treated glass had less 'holdup'. This couples well with your theorising. Noticably absent from this forum i have realised are any analytical chemists. guess they're not mad.

Quote:

I prefer column chromatography.


And you are the only one, lol.

:D Hope your are feeling better.

Klute - 31-10-2008 at 17:03

Funny, everyone at work tells me the same (about the chroamtography) :D

I did quite some analytical chemistry, nothing too complicated, mostly titrating solutions and mixtures with routine technics. But now I can finally devote myself to organic chemistry entirely :)

Hydroxylamine

Picric-A - 2-11-2008 at 12:22

Has anyone made this before?
All the synthesis look difficult so i was wondering if anyone has found a way that is suitable to perform in a home lab.
This method looks feasable:
Raschig synthesis: Aqueous ammonium nitrite is reduced by HSO4−/SO2 at 0°C to yield a hydroxylamido-N,N-disulfate anion, which can be hydrolyzed to give (NH3OH)2SO4.

NH4NO2 + 2SO2 + NH3 + H2O → [NH4]2[N(OH)(OSO2)2]
[NH4]+2[N(OH)(OSO2)2]2− + H2O → [NH4][NH(OH)(OSO2)] + [NH4][HSO4]
2[NH4]+[NH(OH)(OSO2)]− + 2H2O → [NH3(OH)]2[SO4] + [NH4]2[SO4]
Solid NH2OH can be collected by treatment with liquid ammonia. Ammonium sulfate is insoluble in liquid ammonia and is removed by filtration; the liquid ammonia is evaporated to give the desired product

But the liquid ammonia would be a problem along with having to use Ammonium Nitrite which is dangerously explosive.

Formic acid from linseed oil/H2SO4

starman - 2-11-2008 at 22:16

this reference(18)
States large quantities of formic acid available from this reaction.Bit of a long shot as is ancient history but was wondering if anyone had seen the original reference or has knowledge of the likely reaction conditions or yeild,particularly %H2SO4 used and formic acid concentration of the distillate.

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