Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Another home lab gets busted...

evil_lurker - 12-11-2008 at 10:23

This one hits pretty close to home:

http://www.jacksonsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=20088111...

A lawyer says a Union University student who drug police said had a "clandestine lab" in his off-campus apartment was actually using the lab for research on antibiotics and cancer treatments.

Joe Byrd, who is representing 22-year-old David Cook, said Union professors and staff knew about the lab and helped provide Cook with chemicals for his research. Glassware from the school was also part of the setup, he said.

"In my opinion, it was an independent academic study on his own," Byrd said Monday.

But he added, "A whole lot of people knew what he was doing there.

"He (Cook) had multiple roommates. ... At least one member of the faculty, and I think two, in chemistry and biology knew what he was doing," Byrd said.

So far, Cook has only been charged with possession of marijuana and drug paraphernalia after police searched his apartment last week. He pleaded not guilty to the charges on Friday and is out on bond.

Byrd on Monday said he is speaking for Cook and his family regarding the charges.

Byrd said Cook admits having possession of marijuana. He said Cook's not guilty plea is tentative and that he will likely seek drug counseling through a diversion agreement with prosecutors.

Drug officers have said they are waiting for test results on chemicals seized from the apartment before filing additional charges.

Union spokesman Tim Ellsworth on Monday said he could only confirm Cook is a student at the school. He said school officials had no comment on the police investigation or on Byrd's statement that Union faculty and staff knew about the lab and provided materials for it.

Byrd said Cook is an upperclassman studying biology and chemistry. He said Cook hopes to continue his studies at Union after dealing with the drug charge.

Last week, police said in a news release they received a tip about a "clandestine drug lab" at Cherry Grove Apartments, near the Union campus.

Cook cooperated with a police request to search his apartment, where police found his lab, said Capt. Barry Michael, commander of the Jackson-Madison County Metro Narcotics Unit.

Police have said they found several substances in the lab that are regulated under the federal Controlled Substances Act. There is evidence that Cook was trying to use tree bark containing sassafras to produce safrole, a substance used in the production of the psychedelic drug Ecstasy, according to the release.

Police confiscated the apparatus in Cook's apartment and contracted a company to clean up and dispose of any hazardous chemicals found there, according to the release.

Michael said it could be several weeks before officials have the test results on the substances found in the apartment.

"Obviously we don't arrest people for doing antibiotics research," Michael said Monday. "There was some evidence that we found in the apartment that indicates he was doing stuff other than any kind of antibiotic research. ... Until we get stuff back from the lab, I really can't elaborate."

Byrd, however, criticized police for releasing a statement that he said implies Cook was running a secret drug lab.

Even if police determine an illegal substance was produced at the lab, Cook had no criminal intent, Byrd said.

He said some of Cook's family members have had cancer and noted that some chemicals in certain types of tree bark could be used to treat the condition.

Byrd said he is not sure why Cook set up the lab in the apartment, but said he thinks it is because the experiment was time-consuming work.

"You don't really need to have a lab in your apartment. Everybody can agree on that," Byrd said. "... (But) it was his hobby. It's like a really smart kid with an Erector set, except his was a lab."

Byrd also said police misidentified some substances found in the lab in their news release. Michael said police made a list of what substances were found in the apartment according to how they were labeled.

"The chemicals he had in this small apartment were very volatile, and if he made a mistake or whatever, he could have killed everybody in that apartment," Michael said.

Michael said evidence including notes and formulas found at the apartment suggests that the lab was being used to manufacture illicit substances.

Michael said he does not think police were wrong to say the lab was being used to produce illegal drugs, even though test results are still pending.

"He (Cook) had the ability and the knowledge to produce illegal substances," Michael said. "We feel like he was."

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Duke - 12-11-2008 at 10:41

It's great to know that you still can't get out of a problem like this with a backing from a university. I wonder if they'll start raiding university labs soon...

evil_lurker - 12-11-2008 at 10:45

Well the guy fucked up to begin with...

Fuck up #1, letting the cops in without a search warrant.

Fuck up #2, thinking he can bullshit the cops.

Fuck up #3, keeping drugs and drug paraphenalia on premisis.

Fuck up #4, keeping "non-politically correct" things such as sasafras bark and notes on how to manufacture drugs on site.

Sauron - 12-11-2008 at 12:48

It is utterly irresponsible to have a lab in an apartment building.

Want to bet one of his neighbors ratted him out?

Having pot there was a foolish move.

The sassafras does not help any, either. Making root beer was he?

If this was university faculty sanctioned, and supported, why didn't they give him a little bench space or a hood on campus?

It really does appear to be spin-doctoring by the defense attorney. Wait for the forensics results.

12AX7 - 12-11-2008 at 13:38

Considering the circumstances, the article seems to be relatively calm and rational, compared to the scare stories we're heard. A shame that he's lost all his shit though. You just know they've sealed up every bit of glassware, oh for testing, testing forever...

Tim

hissingnoise - 12-11-2008 at 14:26

It's still scary, 12AX7.
This latest bust comes a bit too hot-on-the-heels of the Deebs incident for comfort.
the next bust could be only days away; brrr, from nowhwere, I feel a cold wind blowing.
Goosebumps, now!

Sauron - 12-11-2008 at 14:34

There's no coordination and no connection. This is all local Barney Fyfe bullshit.

JohnWW - 12-11-2008 at 18:03

Quote:
Originally posted by evil_lurker
Well the guy fucked up to begin with...
Fuck up #1, letting the cops in without a search warrant. (cut)

In my country, a warrantless search of land and a building, without there being any corroborated evidence of the presence of drugs beforehand, would result in any evidence of guilt thereby obtained being rejected by the court as being inadmissible.
As for "bullshitting the Pigs", all he should have said to them was that he denied any and all alleged offenses and that he denied any and all criminal liability; and demanded to see a lawyer.

Sauron - 13-11-2008 at 07:14

Mr.Cook (how ironic) would have been within his rights to demand a warrant. Has he done so, an officer would have remained with him so that he would have had no opportunity to destroy evidence while the other officers went to obtain a warrant from the court. The search would have then proceeded and the result would have been the same. In the event he allowed the police into his apartment and so there was no police misconduct. Any US court would hold that the police had probable cause.

As it happens, Mr.Cook is not in your country, John, so your remarks as usual are immaterial.

hissingnoise - 13-11-2008 at 07:44

My remarks, Sauron, since I'm not in the US, were intended as more banter than Fyferbole.
IIRC, you're not in your country, either, so why should you care.

Sauron - 13-11-2008 at 08:04

My remarks, hissingnoise, were directed at JohnWW. Not at you.

[Edited on 13-11-2008 by Sauron]

hissingnoise - 13-11-2008 at 08:26

I kinda guessed that, Sauron; the other guess was that you were just having a bad day.
Anyway, I think the lab-busts thing is a bit overblown. It happened in the old days, too, but it just wasn't so widely reported.

Sauron - 13-11-2008 at 09:00

My day went just fine, thanks for your concern.

Overblown? I guess. It doesn't sound as if this guy had much of a lab, as such, or what I would call a lab. A few pieces of glassware? Big frigging deal. Guilty or not, it's much ado about nothing.

Ozone - 13-11-2008 at 15:24

The kid made many mistakes, but the bottom line is this:

"He...had the ability and the knowledge to produce illegal substances," Michael said. "We feel like he was."

This is what we should really be concerned about. There is not a single one of us who does not fit this description, home-lab or not.

Perhaps someone should point this thread out to tom-servo:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11466

Or...not.

Cheers,

O3

Sauron - 13-11-2008 at 15:45

Yeah, these days ability and knowledge = method and opportunity. No question about that.

Shall we all submit to prefrontal lobotomy?

The_Davster - 13-11-2008 at 20:22

Quote:
Originally posted by Ozone
The kid made many mistakes, but the bottom line is this:

"He...had the ability and the knowledge to produce illegal substances," Michael said. "We feel like he was."


WTF..."we feel" since when are feelings legally binding?
And if he has the knowledge to identify the necessary ability and knowledge, he has the ability and knowledge to carry it out himself..so in an ironic twist Mr. Michael is hoisted by his own orwellian petard.

I was more annoyed by
"
"You don't really need to have a lab in your apartment. Everybody can agree on that," Byrd said
"
I don't even need to comment on this one I don't think.

[Edited on 13-11-08 by The_Davster]

smuv - 13-11-2008 at 20:47

I see this one the other way around; it looks to me like Mr. Cook, took advantage of those who trusted him and used them to supply him with chemicals for his drug lab. I don't see why sassafras root bark would be needed for the synthesis of antibiotics.

Sauron - 14-11-2008 at 08:53

Why prejudge the forensics? Wait and see.

Having a "lab" (more like a chemistry kit) in an apartment, if he had flammable solvents, is irresponsible. It's a shared dwelling. Not a single family home. What would be a minor accident in a proper lab could turn into a conflgration in such an inappropriate setting. I bet Mr.Cook did not even have a fire extinguisher.

hissingnoise - 14-11-2008 at 11:05

Betting he hadn't an extinguisher sounds, itself, kinda prejudiced, Sauron.
The odds there can't better than 50/50.
And I'm sure many here will admit to some carelessness where flammables are concerned.
For all anyone knows, this unfortunate might have been uber-safety-conscious.

Sauron - 14-11-2008 at 13:45

If he'd had a lick of sense he would have finagled some bench space at his chem dept. I had my own room w/bench and hood when I was an undergrad.

Prejudice is relative. I'll stick to my estimate on the off of his having no extinguisher being better than even money. And I'd still say I'm a lot LESS "prejudiced" than the member who already decided the guy was likely making drugs. I do not go as far as that, and that's the real issue.

Besides, even if he was "uber" careful, IMO it was still reckless and irresponsible in an apartment setting. Think about it from the POV of one of his neighbors. Were there small children in the building? Maybe married students with baby or babies? I still think it was a neighbor who ratted on him - if not one of his own roommates.

zed - 16-11-2008 at 04:33

He was a college student. In my student days, the chemistry professors allowed me to design my own "Independent Study" projects, which I executed on campus.

Some of these projects were "edgy", but none of them crossed the line.

My instructors were quite pleased to have a student that was actually interested in chemistry. Accordingly, they awarded me a high degree of freedom.

Good school, nice environment, first-class equipment, free reagents. Sweet!

If tuition was a problem, the remedy was quite simple. I proposed my intended project as a 1 credit course (economical!).

Then, I spent endless hours experimenting....striving to achieve my stated goal.... Occasionally grumbling, "Boy, this is a lot more work than I thought it would be."

I assume such opportunities are still available.

Had the young man in question, made such an arrangement, he could have avoided legal problems. Financial problems too. He needs a good lawyer, and that ain't cheap.

Odds are, this is going to be an expensive lesson.

Avoid the appearance of impropriety.

evil_lurker - 16-11-2008 at 13:56

One thing that is really really nice is an old school chain lock. You can crack the door open and still have a conversation but not let the cops in.

Worse comes to worse you run to the bathroom and start flushing.

hissingnoise - 17-11-2008 at 04:41

Quote:
Originally posted by evil_lurker

Worse comes to worse you run to the bathroom and start flushing.

And deepen the do-do?

zed - 17-11-2008 at 16:03

I'm not suggesting using a University Lab for illegal projects.

I'm suggesting you can avoid legal, health, and financial problems by experimenting in a University Lab.

If you cross the line into outright illegality, you'll lose all immunity.

Whereas, if you confine yourself to supervised experiments that stop short of criminal behavior, and you don't take any reagents or products home with you, you will be fine.

Experimenting means experimenting. It doesn't mean manufacturing and selling dope.

This is an example of an experiment. You notice that 2-Methyl Indole, could possibly, under certain acidic, (or enzymatic) conditions, be hydrolyzed. And then, the resultant O-amino-phenyl-2-propanone acid salt (or derivative) could possibly be diazotized and reacted with Methanol, to produce O-methoxy-phenyl-2-propanone.

Since 2-methyl Indole is easily synthesized via the phenylhydrazone of acetone, this route to O-methoxy-P2P, could actually prove better than the classic Heinzelmann proceedure.

Now, I'd re-check before attempting this synthesis, but it used to be that O-methoxy-P2P was not an illicit material. It is precurser to the formerly OTC decongestant Orthodrine, and it was specifically excluded from anti-drug legislation.

The experimental goal might be impossible to achieve. Or, it might have been done already. If it hasn't been done.....And, it doesn't aim to produce a blatantly illegal product...It qualifies as a real experiment.

At some institutions, there are no blatantly illegal products. They have the required permits. You need approval and supervision, but once you have it, the sky is the limit.

You write up a proposal, get approval, attempt your synthesis, obtain your results, and produce a paper. You submit your products (if any) to your instructor. You get a grade. This is easy, and you don't get arrested.

Thereafter, what you do with the knowledge you have obtained, is your business....

JohnWW - 17-11-2008 at 19:58

Quote:
Originally posted by zed(cut) This is an example of an experiment. You notice that 2-Methyl Indole, could possibly, under certain acidic, (or enzymatic) conditions, be hydrolyzed. And then, the resultant O-amino-phenyl-2-propanone acid salt (or derivative) could possibly be diazotized and reacted with Methanol, to produce O-methoxy-phenyl-2-propanone.
Since 2-methyl Indole is easily synthesized via the phenylhydrazone of acetone, this route to O-methoxy-P2P, could actually prove better than the classic Heinzelmann proceedure. (cut)
The ghastly SMELL of that stuff would give the game away!

zed - 19-11-2008 at 00:55

2-Methyl Indole is basically odorless. And, since the outlined procedure isn't illegal, it really isn't a game. But, that isn't the point.

The point is, while working under the umbrella of a friendly University, you can play to your heart's content, without legal complications. Provided of course, that you avoid outright illegality.

hissingnoise - 19-11-2008 at 03:22

And also, of course, provided you know where to draw the line between outright illegality and playing to your heart's content.
Would the defense "educational purposes" be of any use, I wonder?

Sauron - 19-11-2008 at 04:10

I suppose JohnWW was thinking of 1-methylindole (skatole, N-methylindole.)

AFAIK that is not illegal, either.

JohnWW - 19-11-2008 at 10:03

Indole itself is highly odiferous, so one must expect that most, if not all, of the (singly methylated) methylindole isomers, including skatole, would be also.

BTW In the references section, this article about indole derivatives has just been posted:
posted on 20-11-08 at 01:48
Indoles and related compounds as cannabinoid ligands
Manera C, Tuccinardi T, Martinelli A
MINI-REVIEWS IN MEDICINAL CHEMISTRY Volume: 8 Issue: 4 Pages: 370-387
Mini-Reviews in Medicinal Chemistry, 2008, 8, 370-387.pdf (399.83 KiB)

hissingnoise - 19-11-2008 at 10:22

Cannabinoids can screw-up your perception of passing time, but that article was (will be?) posted tomorrow---wow! can weed really do that?

zed - 20-11-2008 at 03:37

Indole has a mild floral fragrance, I never thought it to be especially stinky.

As for 2-Methyl-Indole, I have synthesized it. I can assure you, at normal temperatures, pure 2-Methyl-Indole does not emit a particularly strong odor.

But, don't take my word for it. The synthesis requires only Phenyl-Hydrazine, Acetone, ZnCl2, good ventilation, a stirring rod, and a couple of beakers.

MagicJigPipe - 25-11-2008 at 10:37

"Wait for the forensics results."

I can give you my prediction. He is legitimately interested in chemistry and really was working with antibiotics. But he also got fascinated with making that "totally awesome" drug that he bought last week so he started to use some of his knowledge to attempt to make a small amount, just to see if he could.

Of course I don't even need to state my stance on this matter (in case you're not familiar with my opinions, I think he should be released NOW, told to take the more "dangerous" stuff from the lab until he gets a house, have all of his possessions reimbursed and be left alone). Let's just say I think that all of us will be in some form of legal trouble at some point (without lots of luck) and cases like this are just proof that this is getting closer to home.

Like I always say, who doesn't have something that, under a lot of scrutiny, could be considered illegal or some kind of infraction? Nobody. That's like police state establishment 101. Make everyone a potential criminal so anyone can be arrested at any time for any reason. (I wonder if there's one person in this country who has never broken the law?)

I'd better stop before I start sounding like a conspiracy nut!

zed - 25-11-2008 at 14:00

Organic chemistry has undergone a rapid evolution during the last 30-40 years.

Combine that evolution with vastly improved information access (via sites like this one), and you end up with a large population of "loose cannon" chemists, who really could, if they were so inclined, make mountains of drugs, poisons, or explosives......Using commonly available materials.

Knowing what I know, I keep NO CHEMICALS OR GLASSWARE in my home.

Books, papers, a computer.......No problem! I don't dispute that I have the requisite knowledge. I just make damn sure that I am not in possession of the requisite means. I don't like trouble.

When I really get the itch to play with chemistry, I make arrangements to work where I'm not at hazard.

MagicJigPipe - 25-11-2008 at 21:13

To each his own but to me, living life by the unjust rules of tyrannical bureaucrats and paranoid, elitist, control happy citizens is not living at all. I would almost rather take the chance than live in bondage.

I know it sounds so cliche but didn't someone once say, "I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees"?

In my mind, if I get rid of my equipment, "they" win. I live on my knees.

Call me childish. Call me naive or selfish. Call me what you will. But everyone has principles. At least they should. And those are mine.

Sorry to be so preachy guys but this is just what I feel strongly about.
Quote:

Combine that evolution with vastly improved information access (via sites like this one), and you end up with a large population of "loose cannon" chemists, who really could, if they were so inclined, make mountains of drugs, poisons, or explosives......Using commonly available materials.


Fear mongering plain and simple. Are you sure you're at the correct forum?

IrC - 25-11-2008 at 22:05

"who really could, if they were so inclined, make mountains of drugs, poisons, or explosives.."

But they do not. Just like the billion or so drivers in the world do not kamikazee others with their vehicles every day (except in
Boston, but who cares what they do in the nanny state minded liberal northeast anyway). Just because they might is crapola for justification of draconian laws. Are you out of your freaking mind Zed for even making that post?

How about this. Life, liberty, and happiness. Who the hell is anyone to tell me I must be happy even though they decided I could not be trusted with my science? Where is the justification? By this I mean where are all the news stories about legitimate private experimenters gone insane which justify the present and future laws? Simply because terrorists ( or drug makers) exist is no reason to damn private research by the majority who are decent citizens with the gift to experiment. We have no lobby and no representation is all and I defy you to show how this justifies your opinion (or theirs).

So terrorists and drug makers are out of control? Then do your job LEO, bust those with illegal drugs and explosives, and leave honest experimenters alone! You let them go in the courts for real crimes and persecute others with clean records merely for having the means to create the evil you devise in your twisted minds!

Sauron - 25-11-2008 at 22:34

Well, there are a lot of lazy shits in LE who prefer soft targets, and are content to pretend they are earning their green checks, rather than doing anything of substance to combat crime.

After all, real criminals shoot back.

This work unethic is in parallel with legislators at al levels who find it more expedient to write legislation that appears to deal with crime rather than actually doing so. Examples abound in and out of chemistry related areas.

HOWEVER as management has a strong policy against posts about drugs policy, we can't go there, and an even longer standing policy against posts about gun control so we can't go there either.

Therefore, enough said.

Magpie - 25-11-2008 at 22:52

Quote:

To each his own but to me, living life by the unjust rules of tyrannical bureaucrats and paranoid, elitist, control happy citizens is not living at all. I would almost rather take the chance than live in bondage.

Amen.
Quote:

I know it sounds so cliche but didn't someone once say, "I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees"?


I have seen this attributed to Emilio Zapata, and to Joseph Stalin (during the Battle of Stalingrad). Any other claimants?

12AX7 - 25-11-2008 at 23:32

Quote:
Originally posted by IrC
How about this. Life, liberty, and happiness. Who the hell is anyone to tell me I must be happy


Which was, I believe, Madison's argument to Jefferson, who thus changed it to "persuit of happiness" as we know it today.

Ya know, it's scary to think what the world would be like if that were changed back, though... and we've already got mind-altering drugs for our children just because school says so...

Tim

IrC - 26-11-2008 at 03:18

I see your point but you did not quote the whole line. My meaning was if they decide I am no longer allowed to pursue science on my own as I have done freely for over 40 years then happiness becomes not possible thereby violating my constitutional rights. Attacks along the lines of "well you cannot build nuclear weapons either and your mere possession of research materials is the same as illicit nukes" does not fly in the face of decades of safe peaceful experiments with no police record.

I managed to make it this far without causing or exposing anyone else to danger so their work to completely eradicate all possibility of my private research is completely without justification on their part. The fact that they go out of their way to include me in their protect society from the criminal program with no effort to exempt legitimate private science compounds the wrong on their part.

I wish many of you could have been doing experiments in the 60's and 70's. What a wonderful world it was then. Too bad all the new people running the show in the last 30 years have wrecked what used to be a good planet. They will not stop until they make themselves feel so safe that life for the rest of us no longer has meaning. Our children will be so stupid they cannot use the toilet alone but they do great delivering take out. One thing I know for sure was during the middle of the Cuban missile crises life was so much better than what they are making it into today I wish I could go back in time.

In short I really wish all the new people would stop ruining what used to be a decent planet.

I should add: the origin of this thread in my mind likely was working towards drug making and if so he also is one of these new people ruing things for the rest of us. If not he was still a dumb SOB for starting a lab in an occupied structure for many reasons. Not the least of which is even if he did not try drug making he still put another nail in our collective public coffin. Therefore he gets no sympathy from me. Let him pay for his stupidity.

[Edited on 11-26-2008 by IrC]

zed - 1-12-2008 at 04:49

Piffle. This is the legal forum.

Keeping Glassware, Chemicals, and a lot of possibly incriminating chemical reference material.....ALL together in the same room, in a private residence....To my way of thinking, that would be a Bad Move!

Since I have mountains of chemical reference material around, I choose not to have chemicals or lab equipment around. From some perspectives, seeing all that stuff together, might look bad. It could cause legal problems.

I'm being pragmatic. I don't like trouble.

As for conditions 30 or 40 years ago; in those days, in my neck of the woods, If law enforcement types came upon what appeared to be a functioning home laboratory......They generally arrested whoever was present, and seized the lab. If you were arrested, and you were innocent of wrongdoing, in due time, you might win an acquittal, and thereafter you could sue for the return of your equipment.

45 to 50 years ago, before the emergence of "speed chemists", home labs might have been considered completely OK. But, beginning in the early sixties, they became decidedly suspect.

If you want to avoid legal difficulties, find a way to avoid the appearance of possible impropriety.

Me, I prefer to work at a University.

MagicJigPipe - 1-12-2008 at 09:24

Let me tell you what I've done lately. It's a major inconvienience but less so than going to jail for life (yes, that's possible if they think you're making meth; how much "proof" they need for a life sentence I don't know but I don't want to risk it).

I have destroyed ALL print copies of all of my reference papers. All I have left are books and I'm even thinking about digitizing those and selling them. Then, I store all of those in an encrypted partition on my hard drive. Hopefully, it would take so much work to break the encryption that they would need a lot of proof just to get the okay to try it. Who knows, maybe their "proof" would be that I have an encrypted drive in the first place.

A similar line of thinking has affected me before. When the cops searched my apartment they took my safe. They said that the very fact that I had a safe was proof (to them anyway) that I was doing something wrong. What's funny is they ended up not even opening it because I was so willing to let them (there was nothing in it but financial papers at the time).

Do you guys think the encryption thing is a good idea? How long would it take them to break PGP's encryption? Would they try just because they found glassware/chemicals?

Also, I've been thinking of ways to make "flash paper" (paper that burns within a second or two). I can't really directly nitrate paper/cellulose right now as I am basically out of HNO3 (and can't make more at this moment; I suppose I could use a nitrate, though). I wonder how effective it would be to dissolve nitrocellulose in a solvent, soak the paper in it and then dry it out? I think I will try it unless someone else has found it to be ineffective.

That way I can use those pieces of paper to write notes/passwords on and if anything happens I can destroy them at a moments notice. Hell, I could even set-up ignition switches at key locations for it. Wow, maybe I'm being too paranoid. But it can't hurt, right?

ahc - 2-12-2008 at 13:48

MagicJigPipe, you might want to try out this freeware program:

http://www.truecrypt.org/

As you can see, it supports completely hidden encrypted partitions (on two levels), encrypted data is impossible to distinguish from random data etc. I believe it to be the best choice in a situation like that. As for flash paper, that would probably just raise more suspicion than really necessary (and what if you ignite it by accident?).

zed - 2-12-2008 at 14:16

I always assume the worst.

Therefore, I assume your encryption will not hold up.

If U.S. Federal Agents target you, they will delve deep indeed.

And, since your papers, computer records, and handwritten notes.......Are a major means by which they will attempt to prove intent, they will hit that stuff hard.

You can develop plenty of legal problems, without having done anything illegal. And, even if you are eventually found blameless, it will cost you plenty....in time, money, and reputation.

ahc - 3-12-2008 at 00:40

Quote:
Originally posted by zed
I always assume the worst.

Therefore, I assume your encryption will not hold up.

If U.S. Federal Agents target you, they will delve deep indeed.

And, since your papers, computer records, and handwritten notes.......Are a major means by which they will attempt to prove intent, they will hit that stuff hard.

You can develop plenty of legal problems, without having done anything illegal. And, even if you are eventually found blameless, it will cost you plenty....in time, money, and reputation.


As has already been said here, I find that getting rid of all notes, literature, glassware, chemicals etc does not solve the problem. It just means that they have won and maybe next they will come up with cameras for every apartment and residence. (oh don't worry, if you aren't involved in any illegal activities, you have nothing to fear, why should you oppose this idea unless you have something to hide?) But we are already all criminals. Besides,NO goverment needs people who can think for themselves as those are most immune to propaganda and brainwashing. These kind of people were the first to be sent to GULAG prison camps in the Soviet Union. Actively pursuing science is educating and fun. Amateur scientists just might not find happiness in buying fancier cars or big screen TV's and that is of course unacceptable to big coporations which influence the politics more than ever. That, and the fact that they want to make people as relying and helpless as possible.

Bohrium - 3-12-2008 at 10:36

Quote:
Originally posted by zed
I always assume the worst.

Therefore, I assume your encryption will not hold up.

If U.S. Federal Agents target you, they will delve deep indeed.
meless, it will cost you plenty....in time, money, and reputation.


That really depends on how hard they are trying to hit you.

If they are just raiding you for having a home lab, illegal or not, they aren't going to take the time to send your hard drives to the NSA supercomputers for decryption. Instead, they'll look for hard copies of anything laying around. But even then, they won't spend too much time on it.

Unless you're making chemical weapons, biological weapons, phenomenal amounts of drugs, or phenomenal amounts of explosives they won't sick the supercomputers on you.

MagicJigPipe - 3-12-2008 at 16:32

I would imagine so. Even though it's always best to assume the worst, if you can't have even encrypted files what DO you have? That's as far as I'm willing to go when it comes to hiding my materials because the only thing left after that is physically burying them or complete destruction.

If every lab's HDs were sent for decryption wouldn't this cost a lot of money? And time? And tie up the computers that could otherwise be decrypting "military" data? Although, not much is more important to the govt. than harassing people who they think must be making drugs or bombs.

Sometimes I wonder if "they" are so dumb as to think home experimenter's are really a threat or so "smart" that their ultimate goal is to actually silence those who can think for themselves and/or potentially oppose them if they abuse their power.

It sounds so "conspiracy theoryish" but I often wonder, "Is it really so far-fetched?"

Some say that if there was some sort of plan like that being perpetrated that, because of the vast amounts of people involved, someone would talk. I thought about that. Then I thought of a question that might be significant. What if the lower people just think they are protecting the country or eradicating drugs and only a few know its true purpose.

And before you guys say anything there is nothing wrong with thinking about these things (conspiracy theories) as long as you only accept real proof before you believe them. "Theorizing" is perfectly healthy IMO.

Radon - 3-12-2008 at 17:08

The very act of posting on a forum such a this incurs an risk that can be completely avoided by not posting at all.

And that statement is proportionally more valid the more drug related the forum.

QED

MagicJigPipe - 3-12-2008 at 17:54

Quote:
Originally posted by Radon
The very act of posting on a forum such a this incurs an risk that can be completely avoided by not posting at all.


The very act of β incurs a risk that can be completely avoided by not doing it at all.

β > < = driving, eating, playing dominoes, chewing bubble gum, having sex or leaving one's home

Where would it end? If this is an argument I believe it is invalid.

Radon - 3-12-2008 at 17:58

...driving, eating, playing dominoes, chewing bubble gum, having sex or leaving one's home

Seems to me I can quickly recognize tangible benefits of those acts.

Posting on forums...Less so.

How's that for a valid point.

MagicJigPipe - 3-12-2008 at 20:04

I'm sorry you don't believe acquisition of knowledge to have tangible benefits at least on par with those of chewing gum and playing dominoes.

[Edited on 12-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

IrC - 3-12-2008 at 22:32

"The very act of posting on a forum such a this incurs an risk that can be completely avoided by not posting at all. "

Then why did you post twice? They are looking for you twice as much now!

A better question would be what do you mean by a "forum such as this"?

Is it now criminal to love science? If I thought this site was devoted to drugs instead of pure science I would not have been a member at all, let alone for years. Where is this bullshit mindset coming from where anyone devoted to science = somehow criminal. You see it every time anyone is looked at for conducting private research and I for one am sick to death of the whole idea. There may be criminals and there may be stupid kids doing stupid things in ever more stupid places but how does this relate to society coming up with the paradigm that private science = criminal.

You can have my test tubes when you pry them from my cold dead fingers.

------------------------ second, reply to Zed:

No Zed I need no "piffle" comments and I know this is the legal forum, so what. I saw nothing wrong with speaking to what was as this shows what they have taken away already. No idea what neck of the woods you lived in but I would have moved if your comments are true.

I have had police in my lab on more than one occasion. Never once were any negative comments made about anything I was working on no matter how crazy and scary looking things were. OK there were two times comments were made and I quote "is this legal" question, my reply "yes" which ended further suspicion. And a question "can you aim that at me" (uniformed officer) to which reply was "no it pretty much goes wherever it wants to, I don't feel safe around it either" ( they laughed but moved farther away). The last to two Glendale Az. officers investigating thunderclaps at 2 AM. While they pondered how cool things were they also could see a well equipped lab and never said anything negative nor were there any future repercussions about any of these and other incidents. More than once they were impressed and quite interested in what I was working on.

Maybe how you conduct and project yourself to LEO is critical? Student lab in dorm = idiot (this applies to reacting chemicals, not building robots).

Someone acting very serious about cool looking science in an industrial setting = not so bad. Police are people like us and not stupid, they can see what you are doing and if it is legitimate to them and you conduct yourself well you are better served. Yes setting up home labs is looking questionable but the serious find ways to be legit. Renting an industrial (small, cheap) location may be worthwhile if you have no university access and you really want to do your research.

Somewhere we must draw the line at what we can rightfully do and what they want to limit us to. If no one even speaks out about it then where are the defenders of private science?


Just a thought.

MagicJigPipe - 4-12-2008 at 23:22

Ugh... I almost have a hard time believing that the police came to your place and acted like nothing was wrong. There must be something you are not telling us. Were they your friends? Is it a very small town? Are the police intelligent or brain-dead? Is your father the police chief? If not you've got some special cops there. Count your blessings.
Quote:

Maybe how you conduct and project yourself to LEO is critical?


What if you don't get a chance, like me? And to answer your "maybe": Most of the time, it doesn't matter. If it did very few labs would get raided and police wouldn't harass people. End of story.
Quote:

Police are people like us and not stupid, they can see what you are doing and if it is legitimate to them and you conduct yourself well you are better served.


Then they wouldn't have assumed right off the bat that I was making meth. They also wouldn't have told the local newspaper about my "methlab" and the newspaper wouldn't have printed a short "article" about it that included my name. I just found out about this and I am absolutely furious. They never mentioned it, apologized or printed a retraction. This is absolutely ridiculous. Now that I think about it this might explain a few odd experiences I've had in the past few years...
Quote:

Renting an industrial (small, cheap) location may be worthwhile if you have no university access and you really want to do your research.


And here's the problem with that: If you are living in an apartment or dorm in the first place you most likely don't have the money to rent any kind of place that humans can legally occupy, much less an "industrial" space. Not to mention places like that would likely be much less secure than a residence (from the police).

[Edited on 12-5-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

joeflsts - 5-12-2008 at 08:01

Then they wouldn't have assumed right off the bat that I was making meth. They also wouldn't have told the local newspaper about my "methlab" and the newspaper wouldn't have printed a short "article" about it that included my name. I just found out about this and I am absolutely furious. They never mentioned it, apologized or printed a retraction. This is absolutely ridiculous. Now that I think about it this might explain a few odd experiences I've had in the past few years...




This one caught my attention. If this is true then you should seek legal council. Are you familiar with defamation of character? I'm very serious about this because what you have described is a serious charge made against you that is not true and you are entitled to restitution. Of couse this is assuming what you have written is true.

Any lawyer would be happy to take this case.

Joe

harrydrez - 5-12-2008 at 14:34

Quote:
Originally posted by Radon
...driving, eating, playing dominoes, chewing bubble gum, having sex or leaving one's home

Seems to me I can quickly recognize tangible benefits of those acts.

Posting on forums...Less so.

How's that for a valid point.


It's not. This isn't even a drug forum. Take off the tinfoil hat.

Radon - 5-12-2008 at 16:15

I see. You find posting on forums as beneficial as driving, eating, having sex, and leaving one's home.

Good for you.

MagicJigPipe - 5-12-2008 at 18:46

Why would I lie? I've requested a copy of the "article" from the paper but they were complete assholes to me (it's a small paper, not the state/city paper, but it still reaches probably 8,000 people a week).

I found out about this from an old friend that I recently got in touch with. He was wondering when I got out of jail.

It was in the "Police Beat" section. It lists the arrests/crimes that happen in the area every week. Since I'm almost certain a public defender can't do anything for me I have no idea how I will fight it.

Also, I asked my parents about it and they told me they saw it! And they didn't even find it important enough to tell me (apparently)!

joeflsts - 5-12-2008 at 21:37

Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Why would I lie? I've requested a copy of the "article" from the paper but they were complete assholes to me (it's a small paper, not the state/city paper, but it still reaches probably 8,000 people a week).

I found out about this from an old friend that I recently got in touch with. He was wondering when I got out of jail.

It was in the "Police Beat" section. It lists the arrests/crimes that happen in the area every week. Since I'm almost certain a public defender can't do anything for me I have no idea how I will fight it.

Also, I asked my parents about it and they told me they saw it! And they didn't even find it important enough to tell me (apparently)!


Go to the public library. They will have a copy of it. You don't need a public defender - public defenders help people fight a charge. You are way the fuck past that. You need to sue the Police, City, and News Paper for defamation. They lied about you.

Joe

harrydrez - 5-12-2008 at 22:42

Quote:
Originally posted by Radon
I see. You find posting on forums as beneficial as driving, eating, having sex, and leaving one's home.

Good for you.


Again, Mr. Condescending, you are not at risk when you post on these forums. So, what's your point?

MagicJigPipe - 14-12-2008 at 20:28

Good idea joe. I'll try that tomorrow. Although I don't remember seeing this particular newspaper when I went last (I usually go down to the main library downtown, it's much better).