Sciencemadness Discussion Board - One EM to rule them all...

One EM to rule them all...

3287 - 31-12-2008 at 01:54

If every energetic material in the world, save one, were to be suddenly inert and useless, which one would you keep?

Bear in mind that nothing else is changing - it'll be just as hard to get chemicals in the new world as in this one. The only thing that's different is, there's only one kind of energetic material that works now.

Uncle Fester has stated his opinion that nitroglycerin is the one that he'd keep, in Home Workshop Explosives, and Ragnar Benson seems to suggest in his Homemade "C-4" books that ammonium nitrate is the go-to energetic. I was wondering what people with a bit more credibility might have to say.

hissingnoise - 31-12-2008 at 05:19

The answer is so obvious even Fester knows it.
Benson hasn't a clue, apparently!
Welcome to SciMad. . .

quicksilver - 31-12-2008 at 10:17

I don't think it's really credibility but how you phrase the question (most of those fellows are either drug-cooks or nut jobs, IMO). IF one is making the determination that the material will no longer function in another lab (?) then a nitric ester may have the nod, but if you are talking about a single material in itself then a material that can comprise as "starting point" like picric acid may be a more flexible material. Steve Preston (Fester) was thinking of NG as a starting point for a initiator but still that could be said of many nitric esters (MHN...?). We would have to define the question more specifically.

Extrapolating further, nitric acid may be a useful starting point if one would imagine that not all secondaries are DESIGNED to be energetic, in themselves, but could be pressed into service by creativity. So I suppose how you phrase the question becomes the focus of the discussion.
...Sodium Azide is used a common bio-tech cleaning agent but is a fine propellant by itself. But then why omit a gaseous material? Logic would point to nitrogen as all others in this are compounds. Are talking about elements?

Actually this is one reason why laws aimed at energetic materials or mind altering drugs or weapons or most any OBJECT is a faltering exercise & used for obtaining votes from the uninformed.
The Asian countries has some of the strictest drug control laws in the world (but look at the statistics of users & material), Mexico & the UK have some of the strictest gun control laws but look at their violent crime rates. You can't legislate behaviour. You can't legislate nitrogen!

[Edited on 31-12-2008 by quicksilver]

pantone159 - 31-12-2008 at 10:50

Apparently "Uncle Fester"'s real name is Steve Preisler (not Preston).

The_Davster - 31-12-2008 at 11:13

The responses you are likely to get are simply the poster's favorite one. Would it not be simpler to word it in such a way as opposed to the chemical impossibility that you propose?

Interesting note on fester's real name...some interesting results when googled.

hissingnoise - 31-12-2008 at 12:48

I based my answer on the fact that ngl is the most useful, most versatile explosive available.
It's beyond doubt. . .

3287 - 31-12-2008 at 16:21

Well, "what's your favorite explosive?" would not trigger much more discussion than one-word answers, and where's the fun in that?

Hissingnoise, thanks for the welcome.

Nitroglycerin definitely has a whole lot going for it, being one of the most historically significant explosives bar none. What makes it the most useful, in your opinion, though? It certainly has some disadvantages as well.

Quicksilver: "You can't legislate nitrogen!" That really ought to be on a t-shirt.

The_Davster - 1-1-2009 at 01:00

If only one explosive cpd is allowed to exist. It must be on the border between primary and secondary, or a primary, otherwise one could not det it.

Unless of course one would consider large objects falling on explosives a reliable initiating method. Which actually was used historically on pure NG before Nobel came about and patented the use of detonators.

Of course EBW could be used to overcome the above problems.

So my choice: NTNAP. 1-Nitrotetrazolato-2-nitro-2-azapropane.
Detonates from flame, not too too sensitive, presumably could be diluted with non-explosive materials analagous to NG in dynamite, and posseses a high VOD(somewhere in 8000s IIRC).
EDIT: Downside: Syntheis difficulty(precursor availability)

[Edited on 1-1-09 by The_Davster]

Formatik - 1-1-2009 at 02:00

Since we are theoreticizing, dinitroacetylene, wherever it may be. Perfect oxygen balance. Two nitro groups in addition to a triple bond.

hissingnoise - 1-1-2009 at 06:54

Quote:

Originally posted by 3287

What makes it the most useful, in your opinion, though? It certainly has some disadvantages as well.

I think the merits ngl has are so many and varied, listing them would take all day.
The demerits are not, IMAO, really that significant.
Mechanical (spring-loaded) detonators, electrically actuated, could replace conventional types; det-cord could have guhr-dynamite intead of petn and mica-dynamite has a high velocity.
Frozen ngl, though it needs a powerful booster also has high VoD.
It will detonate by heat with proper confinement.
The fact that the synthesis-substrate is a food is advantageous, too, IMO.
I could go on, and on, ad nauseum?
Actually, I don't feel up to it right now---'gotta go. . .

TNP.LEAD PICRATE,DDNP,AMMONIUM PICRATE

grndpndr - 6-2-2009 at 05:42

As the precursors are so easily procured and the synthesis so
simple with a high enough VoD for the majority of specialized uses.SC,EFP steel cutting,line charges besides being one of its own precursors for simple synthesis to a pimary or a castable
HV HE suitable or SC etc the family of TNP,lead picrate, DDNP.
ammonium picrate despite some serious dwabacks most can be overcome with simple planning/precautions and considering its simplicity usin OTC chemicals it surely has a place among an all around HE for simple home manuacture.And would be my choice as an all round he
mainly because of its OTC simplicity,HV,and product
variations.No to mention attemptin to control the precursors
would be virtually impossible.Not least of which the niration itself is nearly foolproof IMHE.

[Edited on 6-2-2009 by grndpndr]

hissingnoise - 6-2-2009 at 15:09

Each to his own, I guess---I personally wouldn't put picric acid in the top ten. . .

grndpndr - 6-2-2009 at 21:19

Elighten us then as to your choices that will fill the role of the OPs orginal question? Name me a HE with an adequate det velocity that will funtion well in a SC/EFp.Will also form the main precursor for the primary from the initial nitration explosive .The High velocity crystaline explosive with a vod at nearly 7500mps more than enough for any booster and cable of makin a crude plastic explsive effective in cutting train rails,chains.Gun tubes,trees etc etc.Then synthessed to ammonium picrate a versatile, castable explosive capable of 7200mps adequate for SC/EFPs.All eaily made from OTC pecursors available anywhere with the simplest of equipment the most sophisticted possbly the thermometer.
even the top ten? Ok name me 5 HEs that have all of these charcteristics/versatility?

3287 - 8-2-2009 at 13:53

Grndpndr, it seems that you're getting a little defensive. There's no need, I just want to foster discussion and also educate myself while hopefully contributing a bit to the forum. There's no perfect answer, I know that. This is much an opinion-based question.

Two flaws of picric acid are its extreme sensitivity and the relative cost of home manufacture. To make in any great quantity, well... you'd need a whole load of aspirin.

497 - 8-2-2009 at 15:39

PA isn't that sensitive.. unless you're dumb enough to put it in the wrong kind of metal container.

Also aspirin and salicylic acid can both be bought for about $10/lb in powder form, so the materials are not particularly expensive..

The biggest problem I have with PA is that it stains EVERYTHING yellow. If you've never worked with it, you might think that's no big deal, but believe me, it is.

Quote:

I based my answer on the fact that ngl is the most useful, most versatile explosive available. It's beyond doubt. . .

Is it really? How is NG better than ETN? Of course there are a few advantages to being liquid, but it seems to me there are more disadvantages...

hissingnoise - 9-2-2009 at 04:18

Quote:

Originally posted by 497

PA isn't that sensitive.. unless you're dumb enough to put it in the wrong kind of metal container.

The wrong kind of metal container being, IIRC, anything not of tin or aluminium. . .

As for ETN, yes it has a lot going for it, but it is as sensitive as nitro, though being a solid it is more difficult to desensitise.

Microtek - 9-2-2009 at 14:35

Solid energetics can be desensitized by incorporating them in a PBX. As for picric acid, I would have to say that it depends a lot on the exact premise of this theoretical exercise. If taken litterally, I would say that chemical transmutation wouldn't produce another explosive, since that would mean that more than one energetic existed.
Otherwise, I would go for hexamine dinitrate since you colud then produce HMTD, RDX and HMX as well as a host of other, less common, derivatives.
Personally, I think I would say PETN since it can be used as the receptor charge in EBWs and EFIs as well as in thermal detonators and obviously is powerful, has a high VOD, good stability and is easily and cheaply manufactured in good yield.

hissingnoise - 9-2-2009 at 15:05

Guhr dynamite is easier to prepare than a PBX and ETN prep is simpler than PETN.
Pentaerythritol isn't easily obtained and making it is a pain.
Acetaldehyde is getting iffy now too.
Apart from that PETN is a good choice with a slightly higher VoD than ETN.

Microtek - 11-2-2009 at 01:16

Quote:

Pentaerythritol isn't easily obtained and making it is a pain.

Where I am erythritol is very difficult to find. PE on the other hand is not. Having said that, I suppose that ETN has many things going for it as do MHN, NG, nitro glycol and so on. I personally don't think PBXs are difficult or ardous to prepare, but I do think that dynamites are messy (and I don't like the contact toxicity of NG plastiques).
When choosing between ETN and PETN I would say that the castability of ETN is a big plus for that compound, however, the greater stability (and slightly better VOD, density and so on) of PETN decides the issue in my mind.

hissingnoise - 13-2-2009 at 07:40

If the question stipulated equal availability for all HEs the answers might be very different.
Someone in Northern Alaska might find nitroglycol more attractive than ngl, and in the tropics the reverse would apply.
And then, of course, we all have our own personal favourites; cyclonite, in my case. . .

hellfire23 - 13-2-2009 at 08:16

I assume that if you would keep ammonium nitrate and make ANFO how exactly do you plan to detonate it, with a full detonation, if every other explosive is gone?

[Edited on 13-2-2009 by hellfire23]

hissingnoise - 13-2-2009 at 09:50

ANFO would seem a poor choice because it lacks power (and sensitivity) and NH4NO3 by itself isn't regarded as an HE.
We can assume the question referred to secondary high explosives, so any primary could be used in a cap.
NH4NO3 is an oxidiser and ANFO is a mixture of fuel and oxidiser and it should probably be ignored for that reason.
Oh,and welcome to SciMad. . .

grndpndr - 13-2-2009 at 17:38

No offense intended hissingnoise. TNP has many problems with it not to mention that diabolical yellow stain that resists
any human efforts to remove but I have to stand by my initial assesment of its OTC simplicity, TNT plus performance,
not to mention adaptability.

And I took the OP to mean ONE HE that could replace all others to include the ability to synthesize primarys from the
original HE.

As for it being $ any vet outlet online can supply 1lb containers of pure asa cheaply.Ace drain cleaner and a sack of 4lb pott nitrate fertilizer would be as cost effective as anything that comes to mind.

[Edited on 13-2-2009 by grndpndr]

Rosco Bodine - 14-2-2009 at 20:36

From an improvisational perspective, picric acid rules
as the most versatile material, since it and its derivatives
can be assembled into a practical and reliable, reasonably storage stable firing train and the precursors are readily obtained from numerous mundane sources.

Given the premise of the thread, being which one material
is "king of the jungle" well what else can I say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwHWbsvgQUE

[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

hissingnoise - 15-2-2009 at 13:40

OK, grndpndr and Rosco, if you were to find (by accident), say, a kilo of explosive, which explosive would you most like it to be---an acid substance which stains everything it touches, attacking most metals forming sensitive and dangerous salts while having a couple of per cent more power than TNT.
Or would you wish it to be a really potent HE like HNIW, octogen or sorguyl. . .?
Nitroglycol, remember, has more than twice the power of TNT!

Rosco Bodine - 15-2-2009 at 14:52

Quote:

Originally posted by hissingnoise
OK, grndpndr and Rosco, if you were to find (by accident), say, a kilo of explosive, which explosive would you most like it to be---an acid substance which stains everything it touches, attacking most metals forming sensitive and dangerous salts while having a couple of per cent more power than TNT.
Or would you wish it to be a really potent HE like HNIW, octogen or sorguyl. . .?
Nitroglycol, remember, has more than twice the power of TNT!

You are changing the premise of the thread, and there are a lot of things which surpass TNT in power ...big so what on that one.

[Edited on 15-2-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

hissingnoise - 15-2-2009 at 15:04

Whatever. . .I wouldn't though, go for baked beans if caviar was on offer!

Rosco Bodine - 15-2-2009 at 15:15

This is missing the point of the thread. Apples and oranges.

grndpndr is correct and so am I, there is only one EM which
fits the criteria specified at the beginning of the thread and
all the rest is another discussion. BTW number two would be PETN.
PETN can easily DDT from ordinary flame ignition if the deflagration
is chanelled through an increasing density gradient short runup length
of confined and properly shaped tube.
Caps have been successfully tested based on that property, so PETN
can be configured in a way that it will self-detonate on the transition
in a couple of inches or less of runup distance from ordinary ignition.
In this regard it would surpass the performance of picric acid, but the
added complexity of machining components and needing more difficult
precursors, leaves picric acid in first place.

[Edited on 15-2-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

hissingnoise - 16-2-2009 at 04:23

Yeah sure, I know how it is---you prepare one HE and fall head over heels for it, despite its many drawbacks.
First love (only love?) is never forgotten. . .
And since grndpndr agrees with *you* he must be correct!
Picric acid is way down the list.

Rosco Bodine - 16-2-2009 at 14:02

Your argument is inconsistent with the premise of the thread. So don't even think that some bias accounts for
my correct identification of the EM which fits the criteria
specified by the originator of the thread. I have given the justifications for my first choice and for the second, consistent with the premise of the opening post of the thread .....while all you are doing is arguing without giving any justifications as legitimate debate would require for defending your different view. So given that distinction, then for whom would an accusation of bias be more applicable ?

The poster of the thread asked a question seeking knowledge. What do you seek , argument for argument's sake, or to provide an intelligent answer which has justification and withstands scrutiny as being accurate.

Globey - 16-2-2009 at 17:39

WOW, back when I was into it, many years ago, we had fun w/ ethylene glycol di-nitrate. It was even less shock sensitive than nitroglycerin, and did a number on a few deserved mailboxes. But my favorite (for personal memories sake) is sodium chlorate. I like the idea of 100% OTC, and nothing packs a whallop like chlorate/sugar, or some other reducer between hard rocks with a large boulder dropped on top. Now a days, you couldn't get me there with a 100 foot pole. Even distilling non-explosive materials, like simple ethanol, still makes part of me cringe. Have turned full circle from the days when I thought explosives were fun.

grndpndr - 17-2-2009 at 02:25

Lighten up Hissingnoise youve been diasagreed with by me first off to which you took offenseTHEN one of the most senior members here could there be a flaw in your argument?And personal attacks really have no place here do they?After all you are here to" foster discussion" and contribute to the forum?" Maybe you should begin to 'foster discussion" rather than attack those who disagree with you.

Pure powdered Aspirin is $6.75lb, nitrating chemicals are pretty std for this synthesis and any metal sensitivity or mess can be dealt with by anyone with a bit of intelligence.
And no picric acid isnt the sensitive HE you make it out to be certainly no more than ETN/ NG. And no not my "first love,only love" but certainly one of the simplest to find precursors for and synthesise and most adaptable.

My apologys to the OP, Hissinhgnoise.I mistook the OP as Hissingnoise at this late hour.Still,no hard feelings regardless,really. no room for petty shit here.

Just an answer that meets the \OPs Intent rather than personal attacks w/o merit

[Edited on 17-2-2009 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 17-2-2009 by grndpndr]

hissingnoise - 17-2-2009 at 05:28

Guys, what part of "lighthearted banter" do you not understand?
You're both a little bit too serious!
Take it easy---it's just a bit of fun. . .

Rosco Bodine - 17-2-2009 at 09:26

In the technology of explosives picric acid is parallel
to the lead acid battery in the technology of batteries,
a golden oldie that does what it does. You can get fancier with things for specialized purposes but for the basic purpose utility the journey will always come full circle back to the basic technology. It has held true that way for a long time, although it isn't impossible that any day something all new may be discovered to change that,
it just isn't likely.

Globey - 17-2-2009 at 09:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
In the technology of explosives picric acid is parallel
to the lead acid battery in the technology of batteries,
a golden oldie that does what it does. You can get fancier with things for specialized purposes but for the basic purpose utility the journey will always come full circle back to the basic technology. It has held true that way for a long time, although it isn't impossible that any day something all new may be discovered to change that,
it just isn't likely.

Yep, picric acid is literally a golden oldie (or a yellow oldie!), and the Field Expedient guide's recipe works just fine!

Rosco Bodine - 17-2-2009 at 23:33

It isn't any coincidence that so many experiments have been done and so much literature accumulated in the early research concerning ways to make picric acid, nor that it was the principle EM of WWI...it's because its value and significance was recognized a hundred years ago. It really is EM101 as the one most readily obtainable material to which is attendant derivatives which complete the elements of a practical firing train, igniter,
initiator (DDNP), and booster / base charge, the last element or pair being the PA itself.
The DDNP is the most difficult element there but can be finessed and made to work.
DDNP is circa 1858.

Some of the tetrazolate family of compounds may accomplish the same thing even better, but they are much harder won materials having more difficult precursors and syntheses,
and they are less well known and less documented, being more experimental curiosities
of research than a proven industrial use system having a long history.

Being a powerful dye is an inconvenience about PA
which is outweighed by its value otherwise, in the
same way as is the weight of a lead acid battery a
relatively minor concern in its general application,
where *reliability* and proven performance wins out.

If you need to get a good quality battery for your
automobile for long reliable use in starting the engine,
you don't shop for the lightest weight high tech one on the shelf,
you look for the one that ten million just like it have been made before
and is a known quantity.

PA is sort of like a crescent wrench on which you can roll
the adjustment knurl and use the same tool to secure
the different sized nuts needed in assembling your EM experiment.

[Edited on 18-2-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

Sickman - 18-2-2009 at 00:22

So to put another way "Picric acid is the bomb"!

Rosco Bodine - 18-2-2009 at 01:14

That B word is a huge taboo .....
go wash your mouth out immediately.

We scientists call those things "science experiments".

a rose by any other name ......

hellfire23 - 18-2-2009 at 17:00

What is the most powerful explosive though? Not taking in to account all the outliers like in this thread. Which one has the most strength and is the most powerful?
And no a thermonuclear device does not count, looking for the best explosive compound.
Ive heard of HMX which is nitrated RDX but there's probably a worse one out there.

hissingnoise - 19-2-2009 at 05:26

Quote:

Originally posted by hellfire23

Ive heard of HMX which is nitrated RDX but there's probably a worse one out there.

HMX is prepared by varying the reaction conditions used to prepare cyclonite (RDX).
When it was first prepared, HMX was called homo-cyclonite because the nitramine groups were known to be identical to those of cyclonite.
HMX stands for High-Molecular-weight-rdX.
The four nitramine groups give the explosive a higher density and a consequently higher VoD than cyclonite.
As for the most powerful HE, there are several candidates of which HNIW and octanitrocubane are but two.

PHILOU Zrealone - 19-2-2009 at 06:50

Quote:

Originally posted by hissingnoise
HMX stands for High-Molecular-weight-rdX.
The four nitramine groups give the explosive a higher density and a consequently higher VoD than cyclonite.
As for the most powerful HE, there are several candidates of which HNIW and octanitrocubane are but two.

Actually it is not the amount of nitramine groups that give a higher density

It is the amount of groups per volume units

and the specific cristaline form...HMX has several cristaline forms with lower densities...

By comparative studies of HE data, I came to the conclusion that in a family of compounds:
-monomer is less good than dimer
-dimer itself less good than trimer
-trimer itself worst than tetramer
-tetramer itself outperformed by polymer

This was true on different levels:
-Sensitivity to shock lower or equal
-heat resistance higher
-higher density
-higher VOD increasing linearly with the density!
From this one can conclude that for example:
CH3-NNO2-CH3 < CH3-NNO2-CH2-NNO2-CH3 < CH3-NNO2-CH2-NNO2-CH2-NNO2-CH3 < CH3-(-NNO2-CH2)n-H (n>3)

This is true for all families I had the ability to analyse from databases on HE!
Sole exception is the lead block test what is usually better from little weight molecules than higher homologues in a specific family of compounds!
Typical example is CH3ONO3 vs manitol hexanitrate ester!
This can maybe be explained by the variation of ab initio volume into the LBT generated by the higher density of higher homologues...
[Edited on 19-2-2009 by PHILOU Zrealone]

[Edited on 19-2-2009 by PHILOU Zrealone]

hissingnoise - 19-2-2009 at 10:22

Quote:

Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone
Actually it is not the amount of nitramine groups that give a higher density

It is the amount of groups per volume units

and the specific cristaline form.

That's one way of saying it, but is the minor distinction really necessary, PHILOU?
Beta-HMX is higher in density than cyclonite. . .

grndpndr - 21-2-2009 at 20:08

I beg to differ hissinghoise. In have been told in no uncertain terms by Royal Marines that HMX stands for Her Majestys xplosive

Not High Molecular Wieght RDX.

I chose not to argue the point!LOL

[Edited on 21-2-2009 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 21-2-2009 by grndpndr]

hissingnoise - 22-2-2009 at 05:18

Quote:

Originally posted by grndpndr
In have been told in no uncertain terms by Royal Marines that HMX stands for Her Majestys xplosive

Her Majesty's Marines? Yes of course, they'd know for sure. . .
How astute of you!

grndpndr - 23-2-2009 at 17:52

You are unable to see an obvious joke Einstein?Pushing to start a fight on an amenable forum.Do you really belong here ?

[Edited on 23-2-2009 by grndpndr]

grndpndr - 23-2-2009 at 18:29

Quote:

Originally posted by hissingnoise
Guys, what part of "lighthearted banter" do you not understand?
You're both a little bit too serious!
Take it easy---it's just a bit of fun. . .

Take a bit of your own advice please.

hissingnoise - 24-2-2009 at 04:58

Quote:

Originally posted by grndpndr
You are unable to see an obvious joke Einstein?Pushing to start a fight on an amenable forum.Do you really belong here ?

What's obvious grndpndr, besides a continuing lack of amenability on your part, is that you've tried to avoid looking foolish by passing off your (risible) comment on the origin of the acronym as a "joke".
And I'm here quite a bit longer than you are, but it seems you're the one spoiling for fight.
I won't be drawn as I'd say you've been in too many fights already.
Try some relaxation---it'll help!

chief - 24-2-2009 at 14:21

The best would be the safest ; and this would be something manufacturable in a 1-step- walk-away-synthesis:
==> Set the harmless precursors in place in the right way, walk away and 1/2 hour later ready to blast ...
==> Even better: if 1 hour later not sensitive any more, so in case of failure the risk would be low enough

Now: Could this be fulfilled (I'm not gonna do it !) with a well-cooled NG-synthesis ?

(Anyhow I like my electric guitar: Makes much more noise of much better quality ...)

hissingnoise - 26-2-2009 at 14:06

For many, safest means least sensitive, but powerful highly brisant HEs like nitroglycerine *are* pretty shock-sensitive.
Nitroglycol, though, is an exception; more powerful and more brisant, it is *less* sensitive than nitro.
Its only drawback seems to be its greater volatility.
Because of the volatility, headaches from handling EGDN are something else, but they fade quicker.
Again, swings'n'roundabouts. . .

edmo - 10-8-2009 at 02:58

I think RDX is the generally preferred energetic among the explosives community. I don't know of anything that has such widespread benefits and is so widely used. (2nd to PETN)

Benefits:
1. Easy Synthesis
2. Cheap
3. Safe

Cons:
1. Requires a Primary (PETN+)
2. More expensive than AP / NG
3. Detectable

stygian - 10-8-2009 at 05:26

does ammonium picrate stain like the acid? I think I've read (or perhaps im delirious) that it can exist in some kind of nitronate form as well.

1281371269 - 3-9-2009 at 07:19

How about black powder?
The easiest to make, all the components exist within nature, and it has uses beyond explosives - if all other energetic materials stopped working then all the suggestions made so far would mean that guns, fireworks, fuse, etc would be rendered useless.

Based on Wiki's definition of 'Energetic Material' though, I might go for diesel as I'm yet to see an engine that works on Picric Acid and it's a far better fuel than electricity (sadly

).

'Energetic materials are a class of material with high amount of stored chemical energy that can be released.[1]
Typical classes of energetic materials are e.g. explosives, pyrotechnic compositions, propellants (e.g. smokeless gunpowders and rocket fuels), and fuels (e.g. diesel fuel and gasoline).'

chloric1 - 3-9-2009 at 16:35

Well, I see the point of picric acid as it pertains to the OP. Being an active substituted phenol makes for a plethora of energetic derivatives. If not at least some interesting fuels. It was reading about picric acid, picramic acid and DNAP that helped me to understand aromatic chemistry!

Not to downplay nitric ester though. They are generally not corrosive and easy to initiate. Most are liquids so they can't be compressed unless absorbed into an inert matrix. Mercury fulminate would be a nice PE because of ease of preparation, but mercury metal and mercury switched are getting harder to find. I guess it might be easier to find it in South America or the Easternblock countries of Europe depending on what side of the globe your in. But no mercury on airplanes!!

roXefeller - 9-12-2013 at 16:03

What about the best one given a certain quantity of nitrate precursor? As if the world's production of NaNO3 (or _NO3) came to a halt and all you had was that 500g bottle still on your shelf, with no hope to resupply. Which EM would you go with? I know application of the material counts for a lot (shape, density, etc), but what's your opinion.

Dany - 9-12-2013 at 16:11

i will keep LX-19...

Dany.

Trotsky - 9-12-2013 at 23:58

I vote for ETN. Why? It's easily detonated, so we don't have to worry about how we'll detonate it, it has a very small critical diameter, is easily synthesized and reasonably powerful. It can be used in detcord or pressed bricks. Unlike NG I don't have to worry about it blowing up unexpectedly when it freezes, because it's already frozen. It can be desensitized with PBX and used as a plastique of sorts.

For the entire world though? I'd go with black powder. It can be used as rocket fuel, it can be used in bullets, a large enough block can be used as an industrial explosive. It's probably the most versatile.

[Edited on 10-12-2013 by Trotsky]

roXefeller - 10-12-2013 at 17:43

But could you get enough ETN out of that 500g to make it worth it?

Trotsky - 11-12-2013 at 19:54

I wasn't concerned with that pointless limitation but the OP. Otherwise you'd just be looking for the most powerful.

roXefeller - 13-12-2013 at 22:20

Powerful is a nice measure, but in the classic case of PETN v. RDX, while having similar power, I could put together around 150% more charges of similar effect by going with PETN (2:1 lbs nitric acid: lbs PETN v. 5:1 lbs nitric acid: lbs RDX). Can CL-20 deliver more efficacy with less nitrate inputs or could black powder charges deliver more efficacy because of less processing of the nitrate?

Pulverulescent - 14-12-2013 at 12:46

Quote:

Can CL-20 deliver more efficacy with less nitrate inputs or could black powder charges deliver more efficacy because of less processing of the nitrate?

Black powder does not explode ─ it deflagrates!
Cl-20 (HNIW) contains six nitramine groups, a higher density and better OB than HMX, which makes it more powerful and brisant than most other HEs!

Solomon - 15-12-2013 at 23:44

I would probably keep cl-20.