Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Underground Gadgets & Chemical Supply

Underground Gadgets & Chemical Supply

cracker - 17-1-2009 at 11:15

Underground Gadgets and Chemical Supply> Selling over 250 chemicals (Scientific & Pyrotechnic ), along with a large variety of Scientific Supplies and Pyrex Glassware

www.undergroundgadgets.com

This next week we will be advertising some new arrivals such as a Eckart Aluminum Powder and Zinc Dust.

These materials will be priced to sell, and will be listed at 3-5 dollars a pound.

Sorry no outside the USA shipments

Please feel free to ask any questions you may have. Thank You

undergroundgadgets@comcast.net

kclo4 - 17-1-2009 at 12:56

wtf? You are selling 1oz of Ammonium Acetate solution for 10 dollars?
You don't even say the concentration of it or anything.
Not to mention you have sodium acetate listed as "hot ice" and the picture you have is clearly taken from one of the famous youtube/metacafe videos that shows this.

octave - 17-1-2009 at 13:14

All of these chemicals look technical grade at best. Concentrations,General descriptions, and possible impurity sources are lacking. Albeit there aren't drug precursors available in large amounts, I'd say this is reminiscent of Kno3.com.

cracker - 17-1-2009 at 13:20

We sell a variety of different surplus items, some are of different brands, sizes, concentrations, and varieties.

The information we have on these items is listed in the description if possible.

The pricing is a suggestion only on many of these surplus items. I suspect you will find many of our chemicals priced far below the average market rate.

I suggest you look further. Sure many of our chemicals have pictures out sourced from the internet images file’s. Sodium Acetate is also listed under its chemical name.

We take the hobby scientist very seriously, and are always willing to answer questions and or take offers through email. Thank You

cracker - 17-1-2009 at 13:35

We do not disagree that many of our items are technical grade. This is advertised. However there are many of our chemicals such as the Acrylamide mixture that are ultra pure with proper packaging & process, documentation and certificate of analysis provided.

Our website will not sell obvious precursor chemicals in large amounts. Kno.3.com was selling Red Phosphorous which was a controlled substance.

Please point out these “precursors available in large amounts” that you speak of. Thank You

Any of our obvious know'n possibilities such as Iodine crystal is limited to a maximum purchase of 1 gram.

I might add as well any suspicion of illegal activity your order will be immediately froze and money refunded.

Perhaps the site is not for everyone, but we are here to help if you need us. I will be open to answer any “positive” questions members may have. Thank You

Owner

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by cracker]

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by cracker]

hissingnoise - 17-1-2009 at 13:42

Tech. grade HNO3 in a PE bottle for $5 an ounce. . .a urine-extraction, surely. . .

woelen - 17-1-2009 at 14:03

Price range is varying a lot. Some chemicals have a very good price, or at least a decent price, while others are very expensive.

cracker - 17-1-2009 at 14:10

Reply to hissingnoise>

Yes this is an excellent example. I am sure you are referring to our Nitric Acid in a 1 ounce bottle available from our website. This is a single quantity item only, available one time when this item is sold its gone.

This particular bottle was sourced from or can be used as a refill for the “HAZCAT Chemical Identification System Kit” pictured here>

https://new.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUCTDETAIL?LBCID=30&...

It is part of there “Metal Analysis 1” test. I believe the chemical was supplied by Sigma Aldrich originally. Hazcat’s msds would tell you I believe.

Woelen said>”Price range is varying a lot. Some chemicals have a very good price, or at least a decent price, while others are very expensive.”

Yes we agree, this is due to the quantities we have available. Please keep a look on the items you are interested in. Our pricing is subject to change at any time. Also please feel free to make an offer on these expensive items if you wish sir. Thank You

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by cracker]

hissingnoise - 17-1-2009 at 14:22

I'm not in the US, cracker, and neither is woelen, so our interest is academic.
KNO3.com didn't restrict itself to the UK, btw.
There are items of interest, though, for people who can get them.
Interestingly, I spotted picric acid in the inventory. . .

cracker - 17-1-2009 at 14:35

Hello, Hissingnoise, sure I understand. That’s ok, no problem

. This forum is a very good read.

That Acid is available at a maximum of 5 grams of course and I am sorry to say we have considered taking it off the list.

But it has not been as of yet.

We sell a variety of Forensic products and it has uses as a dye.

Our experience in shipping non-hazardous items outside the US is limited but we are willing to give it a try. For items such as Glassware or Accessories. I’m very sorry, no chemicals though

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by cracker]

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by cracker]

hissingnoise - 17-1-2009 at 14:44

Well anyway, cracker, thanks and best of luck with the venture. . .you may need it!

BromicAcid - 17-1-2009 at 16:29

The curious thing that I found was the 25% Carbon tetrachloride. When zoomed in on the picture it looks like it is really a solution of tetraethyl lead in carbon tet apparently...

ordenblitz - 17-1-2009 at 19:26

cracker... do you think it wise to sell explosives?

cracker - 17-1-2009 at 19:48

Hello, BromicAcid , cool website you have there. Don’t be suprised if I ask a question some time. Yes the Carbon Tet. Is interesting. This is an ampoule of 25% Carbon Tetrachloride that came from a “Ethyl” lead-in-air analyzer kit. I suspect this is the information you saw when you zoomed in on the picture.

Reply to ordenblitz >

I assume your referring to the dye? Clearly with a 5 gram maximum order amount its not being sold as an explosive, but as I had said before we are considering its removal from the list. When wetted with not less than 10% water its DOT label is listed as > FLAMMABLE SOLID

It has many legitimate uses such as ones listed below

Histology uses include connective tissue stain (Jullien’s picroindogocarmine and Van Gieson’s picro-acid fuchsin), cytoplasmic stain (Van Gieson’s with iron hematoxylin), woody sections (picro aniline blue) and as a fixative agent

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by cracker]

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by cracker]

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by cracker]

497 - 18-1-2009 at 02:46

Very interesting selection you have there.

I'm curious, can you get ethylenediamine?

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 03:34

Any red phosphorous?

How about Iodine?

WhoIs Information For: undergroundgadgets.com

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Whois Server: whois.melbourneit.com
Referral URL: http://www.melbourneit.com
Name Server: NS43.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
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Registrars.Whois Server: whois.melbourneit.com
Domain Name.......... undergroundgadgets.com
Creation Date........ 2005-08-18
Registration Date.... 2005-08-18
Expiry Date.......... 2009-08-18
Organisation Name.... Underground Gadgets LLC
Organisation Address. 14183 Deerfield DR SE
Organisation Address.
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Organisation Address. 98272
Organisation Address. WA
Organisation Address. UNITED STATES

Admin Name........... Neil Holland
Admin Address........ 14183 Deerfield DR SE
Admin Address........
Admin Address........ Monroe
Admin Address........ 98272
Admin Address........ WA
Admin Address........ UNITED STATES
Admin Email.......... undergroundgadgets@comcast.net
Admin Phone.......... +1.3608051055
Admin Fax............ +1.3608051055

Tech Name............ Verio Hostmaster
Tech Address......... 5050 Blue Lake Dr.
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When faced with someone who is at minimum exploitative and at most a law enforcement sting operator, it's always best to know who and where.

Regardless, you are insulting our intelligence. What makes you think people on this forum are ripe to be victimized by the likes of you?

[Edited on 18-1-2009 by Sauron]

hissingnoise - 18-1-2009 at 07:04

Perhaps by accepting things at face value, I'm being too trusting, but you, Sauron, seem to be at the other extremity.
Any seller of goods can be seen as exploitative, depending on your point of view.
But what makes you suspect a "sting"?
And I'm not saying you're wrong; given society's direction of drift, your extreme view in this case may be the only correct one. . .
In any case, another interesting post!

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 08:02

Another member stated that this seller is offering explosives.

I cannot get their chemical inventory list to work, si I can't determine what explosives he is talking about, but, that is highly suggestive of a sting.

As for being exploitative, not every seller wants $5/fluid oz for tech grade HNO3.

Some sellers are more exploitative than others, this one seems highly so to me.

So, ripoff or sting, either way bad news.

Remember, cracker did not come on this forum to discuss chemistry, he came on this forum to try to make $$$ off of us, or at least the members in USA. While I think there is little chance of that, it's smarmy, and given the potential for a LE sting, (remembers The Chemical Closet? Remember know.com?) I would advise giving this overpriced eBay hustler a wide berth.

cracker - 18-1-2009 at 08:40

Sauron Said >

Any red phosphorous?

How about Iodine?

Sorry Sauron , but we will not supply drug makers. If you want to make meth take your business else where.

The funniest thing to me about your posts, is the fact that you spent all that time trying to find out who I am.

If you look on the front page of our website you’ll find the exact same information that you thought you were “Exposing”. My name is connected to every email I recieve, and our mailing and physical address are right there, The exact same that you came up with.

Please tell me exactly what Products were running a “Sting” on? I’m not sure we even offer any that are worthy of that “title” LOL

I might add our company is linked by the leading fuse retailer in the USA. They don’t seem to think were scamming. You can also find many posts on the internet about us from our customers.

The point is this> We do not sell explosives, we do not sell drug precursors. What we do sell is Technical Grade and better Scientific Chemical’s & Accessories to those who take there hobby or carrier seriously.

I am a member of many forums, in which I participate. I suspect several of the members here already know me. I was referred here by one.

Well thanks to the pessimistic comments all the "bugs" have been worked out now.

For this reason this will be my last reply to “negative” comments.

Questions about our products are always welcome. Thank You

[Edited on 1-18-2009 by cracker]

[Edited on 1-18-2009 by cracker]

cracker - 18-1-2009 at 08:46

Quote:

Originally posted by 497
Very interesting selection you have there.

I'm curious, can you get ethylenediamine?

Thank You 497, I’m not sure perhaps it could be a special order. Let me look into it for you.

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 08:51

When I want HNO3 I buy ACS Reagent grade by the gallon. Not by the ounce.

Your "company" is a joke. Take it on the road, clown.

I looked you up in Whois because I do not trust anything you post on your website.

25% tetraethyl lead in carbon tetrachloride? Do you have the slightest idea how toxic alkyl lead compounds are? CCl4 is toxic, the tetraethyl lead is TOXIC! You are an irresponsible idiot.

cracker - 18-1-2009 at 08:59

Hello, 497

I have been able to locate Ethylenediamine from one of our suppliers. However our cost is very high at > $60.57 for 500ml

This is too much especially when this supplier charges a hazard fee.

I strongly suspect I can find you a much cheaper source. Let me continue to look for you sir.

cracker - 18-1-2009 at 09:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
25% tetraethyl lead in carbon tetrachloride? Do you have the slightest idea how toxic alkyl lead compounds are? CCl4 is toxic, the tetraethyl lead is TOXIC! You are an irresponsible idiot.

Had you taken the time to actually read any of the posts here you would find that this is not the case. It is 25%Carbon Tet. Only)

I suggest if you want to participate by posting you take the time to actually read the information written here. So who is the idiot now Sauron?

Do not expect a reply to your whining.

[Edited on 1-18-2009 by cracker]

[Edited on 1-18-2009 by cracker]

[Edited on 1-18-2009 by cracker]

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 09:29

"25% carbon tetrachloride" is meaningless.

If t is a soln of CCl4, what is the solvent that is the OTHER 75% of what you are selling?

Who the hell would want 25% CCl4?

You're some sort of chemical junk dealer?

We already know you are a gonif by your asinine prices.

BTW is HNO3 exempt from HazMat? Is CCl4?

The real bottom line is that the way things are in the US these days, the potential liability for any "lab supplier" under existing Federal laws such as CMC, so far outweigh any potential profit that only a lunatic would put himself at such risk.

So are you a lunatic, or are you a cop?

Because there isn't any middle ground left in USA.

It does not matter how innocuous you deem your chemicals and equipment to be, if the cops find your products in a drug lab (real or imaginary) they will come after you for huge civil and criminal penalties.

So, cracker, you can't be what you purport to be.

Therefore: you are something else.

Do you sell sodium hydroxide? That is regarded by law enforcement as a meth lab chemical.

Do you sell sodium bicarbonate? (Yes, baking soda). Also regarded as a meth lab chemical. Some states are trying to ban over the counter sales of baking soda for this reason.

You are tap dancing on very thin ice over deep water.

BTW, ethylenediamine is $68 for 2,5 L (Acros) so $60 for half a liter is ridiculous, but at least you are consistent.

[Edited on 19-1-2009 by Sauron]

BromicAcid - 18-1-2009 at 09:55

Sauron, how many people here have said that they wanted to, or have at least though of opening their own online company to sell small amounts of chemicals to individuals?

You say he might be some sort of chemical junk dealer, if I were still in the market to buy chemicals, that is exactly what I would be looking for in my situation because you wouldn't believe how much useful stuff I find at the junkyard. The somewhat odd assortment of chemicals he carries is exactly the eccentric sort of stock I would expect from someone selling whatever they could get their hands on.

As is usually the case with suppliers, start slow, and most of us here know there are certain things they should not be ordering anyway. Hazmat is something that needs to be addressed since it is potentially a liability to the addressee.

Take the site with a grain of salt until it proves itself to you as an individual. Sauron, you can't even order from there due to your international situation. It could be a scam, a string, whatever, but for now I have nothing against the site and would like to at least give it a chance.

And Cracker, some of your descriptions on the site do need to be a bit more comprehensive, and in order to ship Hazmat you need someone trained in 49 CFR and certified through whatever carrier you use. To cover both your butt and our own. Make this clear on your site if you can. If something needs to be shipped as a hazardous material, don't skimp on it, it needs to be done. Finally, if you are the real deal, I apologize for all the conjecture and worry from our camp. Some people here are doing things they know they shouldn't be doing and want to use your site to continue to get away with it, and others are worried that you might someday run afoul of the law, get your records seized, and find themselves lumped in on a list with those people that were doing something they shouldn't have been doing.

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 10:07

He is selling schlock at platinum prices.

Iron filings, fine, but steel filings? Useless chemically.

Just as an example.

I only recall one member saying he wanted to start a business like this, and then nothing more was heard about it. I think he caught a dose of reality.

Reality does not seem to phase cracker.

Does he realize what will happen if he sells one of those Kimble ground joint adapter tubes into Texas? Tell it to the judge, cracker.

Forget, arguendo, about the CMC liability, the Txas glassware liability etc.

How about the ordinary seller's liability in case their customer is incompetent, unlucky, hapless. Suppose there's a fire. Suppose there's an accident resulting in personal injury. The chemical seller better be well insured. So you end up working x-number months out of the year just to pay the premiums on liability insurance. And the situation is far from perfect. Insurance companies will often do a deal to settle a suit and then drop you or at least jack up your premiums. Happens all the time to doctors.

Nope. It's a bad idea, all downside, no upside. Stay on the demand side, the supply side for little operators sucks.

[Edited on 19-1-2009 by Sauron]

cracker - 18-1-2009 at 10:57

Thank You BromicAcid I really appreciate your view on things. No worries though, I’m a big boy and I don’t have thin skin.

I would have to agree with you and say there is still lots of work to be done on the site. Its tough to find good help, often my time is limited for website updating.

Most of our Hazmat shipping can be done through ormd ground mail by using 1 pound individual packaging. However there are several items that we use ground transport for. We contract through Unishippers for these products. They use a variety of carriers depending on the hazmat of the item or items shipped. I will take your advice and disclose this information on the site soon. Thank You

cracker - 18-1-2009 at 11:11

Sauron
I want to say thank you, I will freely admit I was not aware of this Texas law. I have been reading about it since you posted. Please if you have any other advice just feel free to speak to me normally. You don’t have to be upset or disrespectful.

Learning is why I read. I want to learn anything I can where ever I can. It’s a good thing I wasn’t being close minded to your comments, I might have missed this.

You have some good points about the laws look on things. I cant argue that. But is that really reason to give up on science? Especially when were doing everything we can to comply?

Again Thank You

cracker - 18-1-2009 at 11:20

After some reading it looks like the buyer is the one responsible for the permit. However due to you bringing this to light. We wont be shipping pyrex to Texas

pantone159 - 18-1-2009 at 11:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
Another member stated that this seller is offering explosives.

I cannot get their chemical inventory list to work, si I can't determine what explosives he is talking about, but, that is highly suggestive of a sting.

As for being exploitative, not every seller wants $5/fluid oz for tech grade HNO3.

The first must be the picric acid, which obviously does have plenty of other uses other than simply 'explosive', although I personally wouldn't want to order it (from here or anywhere else.)

As far as HNO3, the seller has much better prices on much purer material in larger amounts than 1 oz.

BTW - Glass beakers and test tubes (even Pyrex) are unregulated in Texas. (All kinds of 'flasks' are, however, regulated. sigh...) No 'transformers' either for TX. (sigh^2...)

cracker - 18-1-2009 at 12:08

Quote:

Originally posted by pantone159

As far as HNO3, the seller has much better prices on much purer material in larger amounts than 1 oz.

Very True, Thank you and "good looking out" Pantone159.

I have found a list of Texas prohibited materials. It’s kind of tough to be sure what all there including in there.

For anyone who is interested in buying please feel free to send an email about the material you seek, even if the website pages are in a private-edit mode. Thank You

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 16:41

Picric acid, (trinitrophenol) is a powerful high explosive. It is usually sold with 25% water added. Despite this, it is extremely dangerous because it forms highly unstable, explosive salts with many metals.

Picric acid does have many uses in chemistry. It is particularly useful in analytical chemistry for its property of forming derivatives with amines with sharp melting points, useful in qualitative analysis. It is also used in clinical labs as a reagent.

For chemical hobbyists its main utility is as an explosive and as source for other explosives, such as ammonium picrate.

HOWEVER, selling PA to hobbyists and shipping PA via US post office or common carrier without proper packaging, labelling, declaration etc. may well place you squarely in violation of an entire raft of Federal, state and local laws and regulations. Consult the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives - BEFORE they "consult" you.

Selling picric acid is almost certainly a violation of eBay policies and can jeopardize your online business through them.

The simplest and safest thing to do is to NOT sell picric acid.

You will also find that getting rid of any PA inventory you already have without contraveing such serious laws will mean thousands of dollars, or tens of thousands, in specialist fees to HazMat disposal specialists. This is what I understand happens when universities find an old bottle of picric acid is some retiring professor's lab and that is why most universities now will not store picric acid or purchase it.

You see, cracker, what you do not know CAN hurt you. A lot!

By the way if you think that the ATFE and the FBI don't know what picric acid is, think again. THIS IS NOT OBSCURE INFORMATION.

As for Texas, the Texas laws on glassware are stupic, draconian, arbitrary, capricious, and just plain horseshit. However they are enthusiastically enforced by the Texas Rangers. And importing glassware into Texas is a crime, so the buyer is not the only one liable. IMO, the seller/shipper are equally liable. Want to be a test case?

My point is that Texas is not the only jurisdiction with such asinine laws, it is simply the best known on this forum. How many other legal alligators are there out there waiting to snap at you?

Cracker, you have made yourself vulnerable. For what? A few bucks? You could lose your business, your home, your income, savings, even your freedom.

Why?

This is the reason I say you must either be crazy or have some ulterior motive. I will add a third possibility. You were simply not very well informed.

Till now.

Cover your ass!

BromicAcid - 18-1-2009 at 17:00

Quote:

You will also find that getting rid of any PA inventory you already have without contraveing such serious laws will mean thousands of dollars, or tens of thousands, in specialist fees to HazMat disposal specialists. This is what I understand happens when universities find an old bottle of picric acid is some retiring professor's lab and that is why most universities now will not store picric acid or purchase it.

Actually, providing you know exactly what it is, picric acid just usually goes out for incineration, might cost a couple hundred dollars to get rid of a kilogram providing it is wetted. Extraneous costs only come in when the identity of the material is in question. Many universities that I have been to in my career maintain a small stock of picric acid, though a lot are trying to shy away from it, at least in larger containers. Most common is the little 50 ml brown plastic bottles, larger older stuff is usually disposed of. Only issue with disposal in those instances is if some idiot put it in a glass bottle with a metal cap, that is where the major issues come into play. Really though I’ve never had much use for the stuff.

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 17:11

Ah, you musn't be very much into amines, then. Or heterocycles containing nitrogen. Or alkaloids. I can think of lots of non-energetics uses for picric acid, but when and if I need it I make my own.

Yeah, metal caps, really clever.

Solutions of PA as usually found in med-tech labs are just as bad.

I'm an old fart and so I regard PA as just PA and no big deal, but I do not reside in the Land of Liability & Legal Excess.

Not so friend cracker.

piracetam - 18-1-2009 at 17:56

shit, I never had problems ordering 3-necked flasks, condensers, and other pyrex glassware while living in San Marcos.
yeah, DPS requires you to register your glass with them (permits NAR-120, NAR-121), but it's not illegal to purchase said items (unless the law has changed over the last year)

[Edited on 18-1-2009 by piracetam]

[Edited on 18-1-2009 by piracetam]

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 18:10

My recollection is that you have to ask Texas DPS for permission to purchase each and every item each and every time and that failing to do so, and just going ahead and buying the regulated glassware, is a violation, as is the importing of such glassware into Texas (without a by your leave from DPS).

It's a gotcha. You can get away with it, but come the day...Gotcha!

So much for the Land of the Free. Santa Anna might as well be still in charge.

piracetam - 18-1-2009 at 18:18

yeah
you're more likely to get pulled over for changing lanes without signalling (quite unlikely).

as much glass as I've purchased (not to mention NA delivered HAZMAT, and NaCNBH3), HPLC pump and detector..never a knock on the door. even saw a cop drive by as I had the garage door open while nitrating some hexamine (I was shitting bricks, no doubt)

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 19:16

As I understand it, the law has two main purposes:

1. To give the cops something to charge drug cooks with if they can't actually find drugs at the time

2. To intimidate the sheeple.

The problem is that as far as the cops are concerned, every home lab is a drug lab, and every home lab is a "clandestine" lab - even if it is neither.

See all the threads about home lab busts on this forum.

"Just because you are paranoid, does not mean they are not all out to get you." - William Rotsler

[Edited on 19-1-2009 by Sauron]

piracetam - 18-1-2009 at 19:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
My recollection is that you have to ask Texas DPS for permission to purchase each and every item each and every time and that failing to do so, and just going ahead and buying the regulated glassware, is a violation, as is the importing of such glassware into Texas (without a by your leave from DPS).

there's a head shop in San Marcos called High Times (of all things), which sells Simax erlenmeyer flasks. Bear never got hassled by the local cops for it.

play your cards right, know the local/state laws, (and ffs, have a good alibi, like a legitimate business license), and there would be no need to be paranoid. perhaps I was lucky, I had neither

intimidating the sheeple is irrelevant, law inforcement is big business (but you already knew that).. buying a permit is like paying another state tax, on top of getting a business permit. always been about money

[Edited on 18-1-2009 by piracetam]

Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 19:46

I guess you mean Beer.

I doubt you would get very far marking your 5 L, 3 necked 24/40 RB flask "Mr Coffee" or your meter long Allihn condenser "Moonshine" - would you?

What we are talking about are crusading cops faced with the simple reality that the war on drugs has been a lost cause forever, and who are trying to save face by going after peripheral, mostly irrelevant things that are easier to target, like glassware, "paraphernalia" and so on. The bottom line is that the pot farmers are doing very well, and will even if Dudley Do-Right seizes every roach clip and bong in the universe.

But to return to the thread topic, the only sane thing for a SELLER of lab supplies to do is Just Say No to Texas sales.

Frankly I think the sanest course would be to sell Mexican silver and turquoise on eBay as there is probably a lot more $$$ in it, and no collection ofKIeystone Kops trying to take you down.

[Edited on 19-1-2009 by Sauron]

granitestaterecovery - 19-1-2009 at 17:24

those concerned with Local, State and federal laws concerning the sale of any item from any company should at least have a clue what there talking about when interjecting into the affairs of somebody who is in the business. Making accusations concerning the imaginative scenarios just makes you sound more of an idiot then if you new what you were talking about.

When a customer fills out an order form for chemicals or equipment That is the time when it is checked against all applicable laws before any transaction takes place.

And the crusade / war on drugs is nothing more then a congressional money pit which dumps obscene amounts of tax dollars into hiring more cops. They could spend a 10th of the money on helping those on drugs but then the war would be won and 33% of Americas workforce ( cops) would be in unemployment lines.....

chemoleo - 19-1-2009 at 19:41

ON TOPIC PLEASE!!

Cracker advertised a new chemical sale business, he's received advice, criticism and various allegations, all duly noted.

Bashing each other's 'credibility' has NOTHING to do with the topic, nor is it constructive.

So CUT THE CRAP!

ordenblitz - 19-1-2009 at 20:01

Cracker.. I am referring to two things I happened to see in your list. The Picric acid as mentioned by other members and also the "gun cotton". Nitrocellulose which if over 12.6% nitrogen content, is considered a high explosive and contained in the list on the federal register as such. No matter what anyone tells you, PA has always been on the list as HE. Just because the feds look the other way for small quantity common lab uses of it, does not mean they cannot come and get you if they feel like it.

Another common mistake people make is assuming that just because something is shipped as flammable solid or a lower class does not mean it is considered as such by the ATF. DOT typically classes things based on any items inherent danger during shipment. ATF's job is to determine what danger it poses in the hands of Joe public. That flammable solid label is for shipping purposes only! For instance, if you purchase blasting caps, and I have in the past, from a supplier far away and they need to be shipped, they will arrive as Explosives 1.4S via common carrier. Upon arrival they need to be inventoried and stored as 1.1D.

I guess if you really need the money and your brave.. keep on. But as someone who has seen the working end of the ATF.. I highly recommend you forget selling listed things to unlicensed customers and sleep better at night.

Sauron - 19-1-2009 at 20:14

Nit to mention that nitrocellulose autoexidizes and can go bad on you in a hurry. There's a lot of propellant technology involved in keeping that from happening, but not knowing the provenance of cracker's product, its storage history or age, I' say it'a fire waiting to happen.

And as someone who also knows ATF well, I second the excellent advice from the last post.

Post- 9/11/2001 USA is not a place to be selling unlicensed explosives and that is what you are doing, cracker. I doubt you have proper storage, I doubt you have a federal (or state or local) license for explosives, and you certainly don't have approval to sell them on the Internet to Joe Blow.

[Edited on 20-1-2009 by Sauron]

Sauron - 19-1-2009 at 21:12

@cracker

What will it take to convince you?

A raid by Federal agents?

Don't let it come to that.

Protect yourself and your business and nix the explosives.

DJF90 - 20-1-2009 at 03:51

Is picric acid solution still regulated as a high explosive? If not then an alternative could be to sell a solution of PA, rather than as the solid compound itself.

hissingnoise - 20-1-2009 at 04:17

Since it *is* a high explosive picric acid can't be sold on the open market in any form---I don't know what cracker was thinking, but he's apparently in the process of removing it from his list. . .

Sauron - 20-1-2009 at 04:47

Good. He's doing the right thing.

Nitrocellulose below 12.5% NO2 is sold by the gallon in hardware and DIY stores as lacquer thinner. It is still extremely flammable and volatile.

FWIIW A friend of mine who worked at Tulate University chemistry dept was busted by ATF in early 1970s for making explosives. What explosives? A few grams of EDNA, a few of RDX, a few of PETN, a few of PA as I recall. Totally trivial amounts. But they convicted him anyway. Now tell me, aren't matters worse now then they were in the first Nixon administration when it comes to this sort of thing? Yes/No ?

I was a private detective at the time and the guy was my wireman (surveillance specialist). ATF "visited" my office and threatened to indict me for obstruction of justics if I assisted his defense attorney.

hectic - 20-1-2009 at 09:06

Cracker - Briefly looking thru your catalog, I've already noticed a few packaging errors:

-Chloroform is in a clear bottle. I thought that perhaps this was only for displays purposes, I.e. to show that the lisquid is very clear. But as I'm sure you know chloroform must be packaged in an amber bottle.

-Your label for methyl amyl ketone says MEK in big letters right below the chemical name. MEK is methyl ethyl ketone.

-The contents of the carbon tet are unclear. This thread seems to indicate that it is 25% CCl4 and that the product is for air quality testing. But what is the other 75%, a lead salt, TEL, or something altogether different?

This is not a knock against you. In fact, if you're legit, I wish you luck. However these issues I've listed sort of go hand-in-hand with the concerns raised by others in this group - that is, the need for some source and specification data to be included in your listings.

Sauron - 20-1-2009 at 09:52

CHCl3, even in amber glass, needs to be stabilized with methanol or else it goves off phosgene, bad bad bad.

If methyl amyl ketone and not MEK, which isomer of the amyl chain? n-amyl? Or?

I asked the same question upthread about the CCl4 and never got a proprt answer.

Seems to me like a case of "Don't know...don't care."

tetraethyllead is not a salt. It is Pb(Et)4, volatile organolead compound and extremely toxic. He says not in there. Let's hope not.

cracker - 23-1-2009 at 11:13

Just wanted to say I havnt faded out. Just very busy, Ill take the time to answer some of this, when everything is organized up here.

Hectic> - thanks for the positive input, I appreciate your comments

chloric1 - 28-1-2009 at 19:15

Well cracker, you where very professional and considerate with me in the email you sent. I was the one asking about 5 gallons of monoethanolamine as well as surfactants. I am going back to my country next week and look forward to talking to you.

panziandi - 29-1-2009 at 05:05

Twisted logic but, you will probably find you make more money if you LOWER prices on some items! Sounds weird but if you have 10 items at $10 an item and you sell 1 item you make $10, BUT if you have 10 items at $5 an item and you sell all of them then you make $50. Factor in cost price etc and you will still find you make more money because you actually shift the stock, no good charging full wack or more than full wack if it means you have the stock sitting there for ages!

The reason large companies like Acros and Sigma etc can get away with charging the same price for 5g of material as for 100g of material is because they know many companies use small quantities as a screen or chemical library and these companies are like GSK etc which have the money to spend. No point in charging $5 for 20g of aniline when you can spend similar price and get at least 100g of it.

Most of the chemicals are grossly over priced in my opinion! $10 for 1g of iodine is attrocious (sorry to say) and what is the shipping on that? $15? Taht would be $25/g for iodine including postage? I can get with out much difficulty atleast 100g for that price, but here it is not illegal!

I think restricting some chemicals is good such asthe ethylene oxide, but will/do companies buy chemicals from you? You are competing with the likes of Dow, Sigma Aldrich, Fisher Acros, etc. A company will more likely buy from a reputable seller such as these than through someone like you, likely unless a small lab who has just set up takes the ethylene oxide off your hands I expect you will be sat with a pretty heafty lecture bottle for some time!

If I may make some suggestions?
1) cut the prices, just because you have only 1 bottle of half an oz of chloroform (not even 15mL) you can't expect people to pay $10.00 (£7 UK) that is rediculous! I pay perhaps $30 (£20 ish) for 2.5L of chloroform (not taht I happen to have any or use any for about 5 years mind!)

2) take photos of your chemicals in the packaging they will be shipped in, you seem to have done that now but avoid using google-images etc

3) Packaging is correct! Chlorobenzene I would prefer to see in Amber glass bottles than PE bottles. Organic solvents esp substituted aromatics (bromo/chloro/nitro benzenes) leach into plastic, dissolving and softening plastic, I once had nitrobenzene delivered in plastic and it released noticeable vapour through the container! Not nice since nitrobenzene is quite toxic! Chloroform should be in amber glass ALWAYS!

4) Make sure labels are correct! You NEED your telephone number, address and name on ALL labels. A number for a poison centre I think is required on labels in US and AUS etc. Detailed information about hazards R and S phrases, hazard plaques, CAS & UN numbers, chemical name and synonyms, quantity purity physical constants. Clarity of labels too. Look up sample UN labels etc and follow guidlines!

Basically I like your idea, little too expensive on MOST of your items for my liking! Register yourself as a professional company, get a proper warehouse, obtain licenses and contact fire/police etc in your town, buy semi bulk industrial chemicals that are commonly required for hobby chemistry etc, acids, bases, solvents common salts, repackage into suitable containers and sell on cut price. Do not try selling over priced salvaged chemicals since you wont get very far and you are more likely to attract professionals if you supply decent purity reagents as a professional company yourself. Perhaps make it more orientated towards small labs and schools but in the terms and conditions mention willingness to supply to the public.

chloric1 - 29-1-2009 at 09:03

Yes that would be the right path to go. Small labs and educational institutions usually have more consistent buying habits. I only sell on ebay as of now but I routinely sell chems to labs and businesses. I am very upfront about grade of the chemical and I charge low prices. I also steer clear of the real dangerous stuff, particularly pyro chems like potassium perchlorate, ammonium nitrate etc. Remember what happened to United Nuclear in 2003.

I also feel the prices on Underground Gadgets many things are WAY too high priced. But I found a handfull of REALLY good prices on others. How about $2 per pound of sodium metasilicate? Or, how about 19 Liters of Reagent HCL for $125! This is not the place to buy chloroform or nitric acid but the ones I mentioned are worth considering. Also, this is the only place I have seen that has glass wool. Real handy for filtering home-made chromic acid!

Stay away from pyro and explosives and you should be OK. Another suggestion would be to have you business cater to a craft or some other chemistry related organization. Some examples are: soap making, ceramics, photography, patination, hydroponics etc etc. Select one or any combination of these outlets and in the background offer various equipment fro R&D work. Many of the oddities you sell can fall into te category of R&D for developing new glazes for pottery, a new photo developer, or use to make up standardized solutions for analysis of samples.

hissingnoise - 29-1-2009 at 09:45

Quote:

Originally posted by chloric1
Also, this is the only place I have seen that has glass wool. Real handy for filtering home-made chromic acid!.

The stuff to avoid is the fibreglass used with resins.
It's plastic-coated and will mess up your acid.
I tried it with H2SO4 and the filtrate was almost black.
I got me a fritted funnell and haven't looked back. . .

chloric1 - 29-1-2009 at 15:25

Quote:

Originally posted by hissingnoise

Quote:

Originally posted by chloric1
Also, this is the only place I have seen that has glass wool. Real handy for filtering home-made chromic acid!.

Good tip! Much appreciated! Did the sulfuric acid make a hissingnoise?

(just kidding)

hissingnoise - 30-1-2009 at 04:35

Best I could come up with--different acid, you must be thinking of chloric 3, chloric 1 (wink). . .But I remembered why I tried the resin-type fibreglass---I'd already tried the orange insulation stuff with a similar result.
For filtration the fibreglass must be white and abrasive to touch.
Then again, fritted funnels aren't expensive.

[Edited on 30-1-2009 by hissingnoise]

panziandi - 31-1-2009 at 05:30

Ok Chloric1 ... the $2 per lb of Sodium Silicate is a good buy! Who would want 19L of reagent grade HCl? Be better off dividing that up into say 1L or 2.5L lots and selling them?!

chloric1 - 31-1-2009 at 11:51

Who wants 19 liters of HCl for 125 BUCKS! Are you kidding me?! I don't know about you but selling chems help fund my hobby and pays my bills. Divide it up into 500 ml bottles and sell it for a 50% or 100% markup.

Lets assume shipping is $75.

Total cost--$200 thats $10.52 per liter or $5.26 per 500ml
With a 50% markup- that is merely $7.89 per 500 ml of REAGENT grade HCl. I am sure that many in this forum would find the price agreeable. Incidently concentrated HCl is shippable as ORM-D up to 500 ml

panziandi - 31-1-2009 at 13:08

Oh yes! If you are selling it on! But I meant who (as in an amateur chemist) would want 19L of hydrochloric acid (unless he was selling it on)... but then... why don't tehy just divide it up and selling it in smaller, more usable lots, themselves?!

chloric1 - 4-2-2009 at 13:25

Panzi, you are absolutely right, but why ask why? As long as something is a good deal and if the product is what they say it is, then grab it. I do kind wonder about there motives. Some products it seems they want to move VERY quickly and others they coud care less how long it takes. But chemical sales is a very demand oriented business. In this I mean that no matter how cheap you make some chemicals, hardly anyone notices. On the flip side I have bought chemicals and DOUBLED the price and could hardly keep up with the sales! Go figure!

dann2 - 9-4-2009 at 07:30

Hello,

Picric acid on ebay here:
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p4634.m38.l131...

It's a water solution that will contain at most 13 grams per liter approx.
Sounds strange to be able to sell that stuff on ebay.

Dann2

bfesser - 9-4-2009 at 11:45

Interesting keyword list from the undergroundgadgets.com wesbite (pasted directly from their HTML header):

Quote:

chemicals,pyrotechnic,pyrotechnics,supply,supplies,pyro,tubes,pyrotubes,security,theft,powder,paypal,check,money order,cash,credit cards,firework,fireworks,visco,fuse,fuses,material,materials,science,kit,kits,scientific,potassium,barium,strontium,nitrate,nitrite,ammonium,chlorate, chloride,acid,alkalides,alkaline,solvents,perchlorate,sulfur,charcoal,carbon,permanganate,underground,gadget,gadgets,plastic capsule,hemisphere,hemi,ignitors,sulfide,trisulfide

Draw your own conclusions.

sbreheny - 23-2-2014 at 23:20

I just came across this old thread because I was searching for info about this company. I recently purchased several hard-to-find items (but not explosives related) from them and overall I would say that they were packed properly. Anyone else have recent experience with them?

*FWOOSH* - 28-2-2014 at 20:48

Dunno, but they look pretty legit to me. I saw this thread just now and took a look and ended up placing a $100+ order. Cheapest DCM I've seen in a while, CTAB is a BITCH to find and I got some LiBr for not to shabby a price.

Electra - 28-2-2014 at 21:21

Quote: Originally posted by *FWOOSH*

Dunno, but they look pretty legit to me. I saw this thread just now and took a look and ended up placing a $100+ order. Cheapest DCM I've seen in a while, CTAB is a BITCH to find and I got some LiBr for not to shabby a price.

CTAB is not hard to find! It's one of the most widely used industrial surfactants, found in nearly all soap products...ever... I just picked up 5kg of the stuff for a little under $15/kg, which is a lifetime supply for anything I'll ever need it for.

*FWOOSH* - 3-3-2014 at 11:23

Maybe I wasn't looking in the right places then haha. Where did you get it?