An achievement of unprestigious simplicity, but I have finally figured out my new way to produce elemental chlorine in both small and large
quantities.
But now with this done, I would like to know some useful and fascinating reagents and products of chlorine experimentation. The most convenient being
the dissolving of the highly toxic gas in a solvent.Sauron - 18-1-2009 at 17:00
Making chlorine is easy.
My advice is: do not store it. Make it only as needed, use it in situ, and this way you will avoid all the serious hazards of its storage.
Pray tell what is your method of generating chlorine gas?
There are many but some are better than others. Some will leave gooey brown messes of solid waste.
Most really interesting things to do with chlorine require rather elaborate equipment such as a fume hood, glove box, etc.
And a lot of orhanic chlorine compounds are reactive, corrosive, lachrymatory, and/or toxic. Many of its inorganic compounds as well.
My advice is:don't so this till you are adequately educated about what you are doing and how to do it and adequately equipped to do it safely.chemoleo - 18-1-2009 at 17:32
Blindedachievement, no double posting please.
As there are about a zillion and one experiments that can be done with chlorine, I'll put this in 'Beginnings' for now until you become a bit more
specific. In the meantime, have a look around in the forum, and you'll get lots of ideas!BlindedAchievement - 18-1-2009 at 17:54
First of all, I will not store it. I will only produce the quantities needed, and with great caution.
Secondly, forgive my unspecification, I am very unfimiliar with the system here.
My proposition was for amatuer fascination with the product. Anything really interesting, useful in an averge lab. I cannot go any further than that,
but if you choose to leave it in beginnings, so be it.woelen - 18-1-2009 at 23:56
What you can do with chlorine also strongly depends on what other reagents you have. With chlorine alone you cannot do that much interesting.
I do have a few suggestions, but be very careful when doing these experiments. ALWAYS work outside on a breezy day, with wind from behind!
One interesting experiment is to take a wick of a candle, soak this with petroleum ether or some other volatile flammable solvent. Light the wick and
immerse this in pure chlorine gas. It will continue burning with an extremely sooty red flame. Try experimenting a little with different solvents, one
solvent works better than other solvents. Better results are obtained with solvents, rich in unsaturated hydrocarbons and with more volatile ones.
Another interesting beginners experiment is making bromine from KBr or NaBr. Simply buibble chlorine through the solution of the bromide and you'll
get bromine. The vapor of the bromine can easily be observed, it is nice brown/orange. Again, be VERY careful, bromine vapor is at least as toxic as
chlorine gas! the bromine in turn can be absorbed in a ml or so of ligroin and then in sunlight you can see how the bromine slowly reacts with the
ligroin.
There are many more interesting things which you can do, but I first would like to know which other reagents you have and what kind of
experiments/demos you have in mind.Sauron - 19-1-2009 at 00:40
Making chlorine is easy, getting in into a form that is useful is harder.
The Cl2 needs to be dry, and free from HCl, and some processes for generating Cl2 are better than others in this regard.
Regardless, you should run your Cl2 through a drying train before reacting it.
A drying train is a series of gas washing bottles. The bottles are half filled with conc H2SO4 which will absorb moisture and pass the Cl2. A final
bottle is emptry and is a guard against suckback. A check valve is a good idea.
See Vogel (PRACTICAL ORGANIC CHEMISTRY 3rd Ed.) for detils but I do not recommend his Cl2 prep (HCl/KMnO4).
What method were you planning on for generating Cl2?
The Vogel book is in forum library, it's the one by Arthur Vogel you want. You can download whole book free.
And if you're not aware of the dangerous reactions of halogens with ammonia and its ion, you should acquaint yourself with texts on the subject.
Safety foist!
[Edited on 19-1-2009 by hissingnoise]BlindedAchievement - 19-1-2009 at 11:43
Some very interesting experiments suggessted. By the way, did you mean that dissolving chlorine in potassium bromide or sodium bromide would produce
bromine in its liquid state, or gas state?
To answer the next question of the number of chemicals and reagents I have readily avaivible; 18-20% concentrated sulfuric acid, 30-32% concentrated
hydrochloric acid, lots of magnesium, potassium bromide ammonia, sodium hydrogen ulfate, iron fillings, zin powder, sulfur, iodine solution, potassium
iodide, potassium permanganate, sodium chloride, ammonium sulfate, ammonium chloride, calcium hydroxide, potassium hexafornate (probably spelled it
wrong), calcium sulfate, copper sulfate, hydrogen bromide, sodium bicarbonate, and that's all I remmber. Oh, and iodine starch.
When I started this thread, I was thinking of dissolving the chlorine in a solvent. I asked here if anyone had any good ideas as to which type of
solvent for an interesting reaction.panziandi - 19-1-2009 at 12:44
If you pass chlorine through aqueous bromide, you will get bromine water. If you have a high bromide concentration you may get droplets of bromine
sink to the bottom, you will also likely see the brown vapours unless it is quite cold.
You could do lots with the list you mention. You could pass chlorine thorugh aqueous potassium iodide and get iodine aswell. Dissolve chlorine in
water and add this dropwise to solutions of other halide, chlorine water can be kept in the dark and cold for a few days. I wouldn't try dissolve it
in anything else! You could make the vile smelling sulphur chlorides by passing a little chlorine over sulphur until a liquid droplet forms that is
easy but smelly, do it on a small scale. You could also burn magnesium in chlorine, and compare the reaction of aluminium, zinc and iron to chlorine
gas.hissingnoise - 19-1-2009 at 12:46
Quote:
Originally posted by BlindedAchievement
When I started this thread, I was thinking of dissolving the chlorine in a solvent.
Chlorine, being highly reactive and an oxidiser will react with all of the solvents I can think of. . .
If you're oxidising HCl, consider the acid as a reduced chlorine solution.
[Edited on 19-1-2009 by hissingnoise]hissingnoise - 19-1-2009 at 13:47
A potentially useful reaction is; Cl2 + H2O+ H2SO3---> H2SO4 + 2HCl.
Btw, has anyone here produced sulphuric acid by this reaction?Sauron - 19-1-2009 at 14:38
20% H2SO4 is DILUTE.
Concentrated H2SO4 is typically 95% and d 1.86
You still have not revealed how you will generate chlorine.hissingnoise - 19-1-2009 at 15:00
He must be using HCl on KMnO4 since both are mentioned above.
He has sulphur too, so maybe he'll try upping the conc. of his H2SO4.
18-20% is barely sour. . .Sauron - 19-1-2009 at 15:14
He would be well advised to read the threads on generating Cl2 with TCCA and HCl.
Does he think KMnO4 is a closely guarded secret? Applying for a patent?hissingnoise - 19-1-2009 at 15:29
He'll be wanting to know what TCCA is---next post. . .
Sorry, B-A.panziandi - 19-1-2009 at 15:35
Everyone knows how to make chlorine so perhaps he was just not gonna litter a thread with a well known subject...mmm...just dont try making it from
electrolysis!!! HaHaHa...Sauron - 19-1-2009 at 16:00
Some ways are definitely better than others. KMnO4 bogs down halfway through and then requires heat, the rate of gas generation even in the first
stage is inconsistent, and it leaves a huge mess of MnO2. Ugh.
TCCA leaves only cyanuric acid, which can be used to regenerate TCCA (as if it wasn't cheap enough) and other things. Non-staining white powder. Gas
production is more consistent.
I would not presume this fellow knows much of anything, he appears pretty clueless.
TCCA (swimming pool chemical) is both more available OTC and cheaper than KMnO4.BlindedAchievement - 20-1-2009 at 14:50
Well, of course the basic way to generate chlorine is by adding potassium permangante to a few milimeters of hydrochloric acid, and heat that mixture.
I just assumed it wasn't that important how I produced it, only what the thread was actually about. Obviously, it's no secret. Sorry for any
misunderstanding.
Now, about that reaction; Cl2 + H2O + H2SO3. Do you have any information on about how much H2SO3 to use? I presume that you mean just mixing it with
the solution of chlorine.BlindedAchievement - 20-1-2009 at 14:54
Oh, and by the way, panziandi, when you said to pass the chlorine gas through potassium iodide solution, is the product elemental iodine or iodine
solution?panziandi - 20-1-2009 at 14:58
Well first you obtain Iodine the Iodine will react with KI to from KI3, but with increased addition of chlorine you will disrupt that equilibrium by
removing KI to form KCl and I2 so eventually you will get Iodine solid in a solution of potassium chloride, a small amount of Iodine will be dissolved
in the water but the % is not very high and in fact you may start forming ICl if you continued to pass chlorine in. You could prepare I2 then isolate
that then chlorinate that to obtain ICl and further chlorinate that to obtain ICl3. Be an interesting change of colour and states of matter and will
get you familiar with the halogens and their properties and reactions.BlindedAchievement - 20-1-2009 at 15:05
I will keep that in the forefront of my thinking. Thank you.Sauron - 20-1-2009 at 22:00
You do NOT add KMnO4 to HCl (and it is milliLITERS not milliMETERS.
You drip the acid onto powdered KMnO4. You do NOT have to heat the until about half of the calculated amount of HCl has been added (and the reaction
slows considerably.)
HOWEVER this is an obsolete and inferior method as well as messy and relatively expensive.
The preferred method is to drip HCl onto granular TCCA (trichloroisocyanuric acid) which despite the jawbreaker name is a common dirt cheap swimming
pool chlorinator.
UTFSE and read the threads on making Cl2 this way, by len1 and others including myself.
Of course if you have a use for lots of goopy MnO2 waste then go right ahead with KMnO4. Few of us do.hissingnoise - 21-1-2009 at 06:34
MnO2 will oxidise HCl if the temperature is raised somewhat and Cl2 bubbled into a hot saturated solution of Na or KOH will form chlorate and
chloride.BlindedAchievement - 21-1-2009 at 20:46
A very good number of sugestions, but let's evaluate what we already have before moving on. We can pick one, and then all thatcan do it, well, do it
if you want, and we can compare results. Just a suggestion.
In my opinion, the ones that produced elemental iodine or MnO2, and chlorine water were very interesting, and could go through further evaluation.
So, if anybody has some new suggestions for experiments using chlorine, and think it's really worth it, please do post it, and if not, kind of "vote"
for what to do first. I think it would be really fascinating.Sauron - 21-1-2009 at 22:45
KmnO4 contains how much chlorine?
NONE
All Cl2 generated with KMnO4 comes from HCl.
TCCA contains THREE chlorine atomes per molecule, or to put it another way 3 mols Cl2 (213 g) per 2 mols TCCA.
Therefore reacting TCCA with HCl is a very efficient chlorine generating process compared to doing so with any reagent that contains no chlorine
itself.
I suggest that as a learning exercise you work out the stoichiometry for both reactions (that is, write balanced equations) and compare.
Anyway, if you are not interested in taking advice, then I'm not interested in wasting any more time offering it.woelen - 21-1-2009 at 23:53
Sauron, I think your message is clear. There are more efficient methods of making Cl2 than using KMnO4, but sometimes there are other things as well
(such as having the chem at hand, making small amounts, etc.). The question here is not how to make chlorine, but what kind of interesting experiments
can be done with it.
I can add one other interesting experiment, provided you have calcium carbide (a.k.a. "carbid"). Make some chlorine gas and put this in a beaker,
upside down under water. Make some acetylene gas with the carbide and carefully bubble SMALL amounts into the chlorine gas. Each time, when a bubble
of acetylene goes into the chlorine, there is a flash and a bumping noise. Quite spectacular. I have done this experiment myself and it is spectacular
and can be done easily.
woelen, I am annoyed with this tyro's attitude. Read his ither thread and you will see, he literally doesn't know how to pour piss from a boot when
the instructions are carved into the sole.
He was ass-backwards on how to make Cl2 from his own chosen reagents.
This is someone who neds to read more and post less.BlindedAchievement - 22-1-2009 at 11:25
This is the beginnings section of an amatuer discussion board!
If you don't like the way I do things then I don't give a rat's ass. Attempting to raise enthusiasm and interest in the best of intentions is not a
punishable act.
[Edited on 22-1-2009 by BlindedAchievement]Sauron - 22-1-2009 at 12:04
For someone so clueless you sure are snotty.BlindedAchievement - 22-1-2009 at 12:15
BlindedAchievement - 22-1-2009 at 12:22
Well, anyway, I am in no pocession of calcium carbide, but I will keep an eye out for it.
Like woolen said, this isn't about the production of chlorine, it's about the uses of it.Jor - 22-1-2009 at 12:39
Another VERY nice experiment is burning sodium metal in chlorine gas.
Use a spoon-like spatula, and put a SMALL piece (50mg is enough) of sodium on it. Have a large heat resistant flask filled with chlorine gas at hand.
Heat the sodium with a burner. First it will melt, but not ignite. At some point the molten metal will be visible and it will ignite. Now carefully
lower the spatula in the chlorine filled flask. It burn with a VERY INTENSE yellow flame, your eyes will hurt. It's amazing.
Do not drop it on the bottom of the flask, as it might shatter. If you do, first put some sand or NaCl in the flask to absord the heat.
Be careful, the smoke evolved when the sodium still burns in oxygen is very corrosive to your respiratory tract (it's sodium peroxide).
[Edited on 22-1-2009 by Jor]panziandi - 23-1-2009 at 12:27
Yes indeed burning sodium in chlorine is very nice! Woelen I like your page on this experiment, would make a lovely demonstration to young students
wouldn't it?!
Just trying to think of other experiments. S2Cl2 is obvious as is ICl / ICl3 all on small scales (especially the sulphur one)
Making AlCl3 or FeCl3 would be nice (and usefull) from aluminium foil or iron wool respetively.
P.S.
Just a thought but if anybody lacks sodium perhaps something similar with lithium foil from batteries could be used?!
[Edited on 23-1-2009 by panziandi]Sauron - 23-1-2009 at 14:44
Is blindedachievement in USA? If so he is unlikely to acquire any I2. So making ICl or ICl2 is a non-starter.BlindedAchievement - 23-1-2009 at 18:37
I am in the US, but I know a few places.BlindedAchievement - 27-1-2009 at 15:53
I think that we can all call this topic officially closed
chlorine
bluemike - 27-1-2009 at 17:06
i think back to my chlorine experiments with bad memories. I tried to do an organic chlorination with UV lights. My lab stunk for months and I had
to throw out my clothes for three days. The washer wouldn't remove the smell.Sauron - 27-1-2009 at 19:41
Do the words FUME HOOD mean anything to you?panziandi - 28-1-2009 at 15:57
Last week I went to the pool and forgot to wash my shorts over the weekend! After a wash with my favorite brand washing powder I can still smell the
chlorine! Dam sports centre!!!
But to fumigate a garage with chlorine enough to stink it out for months?.... I'd be a little worried about the state of your lungs bluemike!!!hissingnoise - 29-1-2009 at 07:14
Swimming in chlorine-sterilised pools doesn't do your skin any favours either.BlindedAchievement - 29-1-2009 at 10:36
I guess notJdurg - 20-2-2009 at 21:53
Another easy reaction is to take the chlorine gas and bubble it through a solution of sodium hydroxide. You wind up with what is basically chlorine
bleach! hellfire23 - 21-2-2009 at 06:44
Ahh a use of chlorine?
How about formation of the singlet oxygen it exhibits red chemiluminescence.
You can do this by bubbling chlorine gas into a strong solution of sodium hydroxide and hydrogen peroxide.
Now for you to understand the full meaning of the singlet oxygen...thats a different story. A lot of math and physics.kclo4 - 21-2-2009 at 20:18
Perhaps he meant the smell was of some toxic, carcinogenic organic chemical he produced instead of the chlorine gas that was stinking up the garage.Tinton - 22-2-2009 at 08:33
As an alternative to a fume hood, the hydroxide + chlorine -> hypochlorite reaction can function as a chlorine scrubber.
I was using a continuous stream of Cl2 for something recently and needed to do it inside--where I have no fume hood.
Using an erlenmeyer flask as the reaction vessel(instead of a beaker) I was able to feed the unused chlorine gas into a large flask of concentrated
sodium hydroxide.
I successfully completed the reaction without anything more than a faint chlorine smell. The smell was closer to hypochlorite than chlorine gas
anyway.
[Edited on 22-2-2009 by Tinton]kclo4 - 22-2-2009 at 16:33
Make sure you don't get suck back with bubbling chlorine into Sodium Hydroxide. I'm not to sure it could happen as I've never bubbled chlorine into a
conc. NaOH solution but it seems like it could easily happen and result in some serious problems especially if the NaOH soln. hit some acid.woelen - 27-2-2009 at 14:04
You can avoid suck-back problems by having an empty bottle with a 2-holed cork between the chlorine generator and the NaOH-trap. If NaOH solution
sucks back, then it first fills the empty bottle and then you have enough time to unplug the inlet of that bottle.
