Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Adios

 Pages:  1  2  

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 21:07

Be very wary of diazomethane.

One of my friends in NJ has a couple of the Aldrich ClearSeal cased glassware kits for sale second hand.

I have not checked but I think these are 50-100 mmo0l scale and designed for Diazald

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

Polverone - 8-7-2009 at 21:20

I agree that medicinal chemistry is fascinating and impressive. It is daunting how synthetically complex modern drugs can be. What's more impressive yet is how cheaply they can ultimately be offered. If you look at the structure of something like omeprazole or loperamide it's surprising what can be delivered for a few tens of cents per pill, retail.

benzylchloride1 - 8-7-2009 at 21:29

The diazomethane will be prepared in very small quantites in a fume hood, wearing a respirator and with a threaded microscale distillation apparatus on a very small scale. This is a substance that should be treated as a deadly poison and is not to be taken lightly. I am just curious about it use as a methylation reagent and for increasing the length of a carboxylic acid by one carbon, the Arndt-Eistert reaction. I plan on using it to methylate the hydroxyl group of vanillin on a 0.5g scale. 3,4-dimethoxybenzaldehyde is used in a number of complex natural product syntheses; but also is used for some street drugs. Many useful and interesting chemicals for total synthesis have been banned because of their use in making drugs. I once tried to go into a local GNC store to see if I could order some malic acid. The clerk asked me why I needed this, and I stated that I was going to conduct some chemistry experiments. The clerk told me that chemistry experiments are illegal. I responded by telling him that I am not a drug cook and malic acid is not a chemical that is used in drug synthesis as far as I know. The drug cooks have destroyed our hobby in the eyes of many people. I was once accused of being a kewlish bomb maker when I bought some wink brand iron rust stain remover that contained sodium dithionate. It deeply troubles me when people use this forum to directly discuss the synthesis of common street drugs. The information about these compounds and their production can be easily located on the internet by a simple search. There is really no need to rehash what has been discussed time and time again on the hive. We have become allowed the killer bees in and they are destroying our hobby. Still there is some useful information about some chemicals that can be found on this site, but most of the procedures for intermediates such as methylamine HCl, allyl alcohol can be found in Vogels Practical Organic chemistry.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by benzylchloride1]

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by benzylchloride1]

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by benzylchloride1]

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 21:50

Polverone

I suppose you are being facetious.

I have done business with all the major chemical vendors in this Kingdon for a lot longer than this forum has existed.

The former deputy director of National Police is a close friend. When Asia Week submitted written questuibs ro the General for an interview, I wrote his answers. Not translated. WROTE. They were published word for word. The General's men summarily executed 100 drug dealers in his career. That is not the record. in a single 90 day period Prime Minister Thaksin, now a fugitive, has 2700 ALLEGED drug dealers killed. Most were just victims of shakedowns by crooked cops and not into drugs at all. Thaksin was a crooked cop. The General is not, he was police escort for HM the King for 7 years and comes from one of the richest families in Thailand who have served the monarchy for 3 centuries amd been rewarded with land. A LOT of land.

I spent 20 years working with thw Thai military at top level and still regularly lunch with thw former head of Military Intelligence and Special Warfare Command. Same 20 years as a senior defense-intelligence journalist, bureau chief for the ten nation ASEAN grouping for a Washington bsdrf publication. Accredited with US Embassy and Rhai Foreign Ministry.

Amd 9 years as international affairs director for a two term Thsi Drnator who was Dean of the Law School and son os a Supreme Court Justice,

Do you really think I need anything laminated from any Internet forum? You make me laugh, Polverone.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

Polverone - 8-7-2009 at 22:01

Actually that post was for benzylchloride1 -- quote now edited in to make it clearer. And yes, the second half was facetious.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 22:13

OK. Suffice it to say that my professional life and my hobby ought not to be comfused.

As for the price of pills that is obviously a function of economy of scale. Big Pharma has that.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

turd - 8-7-2009 at 22:21

Haha. Some people still have to learn about the inner workings of a drama queen. Though I wish the experience on no one.

Quote: Originally posted by benzylchloride1  
Medicinal chemistry is a fascinating field. We need to have more discussion on synthesis of medicines that fix problems such as pennicillin instead of a new way of making something like methamphetamine.

No. Science need not have practical applications. c.f. amateur (from amare, to love).

Quote:
Ths synthesis of amphetamines has little to offer to the amateur beside a way of getting high or making a buck.

Wrong. Amphetamine (derivate) synthesis is perfect for amateur chemists. Amphetamines are stable molecules, can be synthesized in a myriad of ways and the precursors are easily acquired. There's some ingenuity involved in making amphetamines from scratch in a home setting, but it can be done. Perfect for learning basic organic chemistry and at the same time doing some innovation without having access to a multi-thousand-dollar lab.

And please stop perpetuating that silly "quick money" prejudice. Most people doing amphetamine derivates do not sell. Batch sizes are typically in the 10g range and there's no market for those compounds. This is like claiming that all people interested in energetic materials are terrorists. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 22:31

It is the height of irresponsibility to post on this forum and exhort others to commit a felony.

In fact depending on where you are and where they are it may well be a felony in and of itself.

Do you seriously propose that there are no other compounds of equal or better pedagogical value amd other qualities that are legal?

RIDICULOUS.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

kclo4 - 8-7-2009 at 23:09

Sauron, What political party do you most agree with?

crazyboy - 8-7-2009 at 23:15

And Member of the Day is... Sauron with 18 posts! (soon to be 19 I assume) Why don't you stop this petty bickering and leave already?

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 23:23

Because NOT doing do apparently pisses you off, of course. I just live to answer such idiotic questions from witless nonentities like you.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 23:28

Quote: Originally posted by kclo4  
Sauron, What political party do you most agree with?


In whuch country? I am a US citizem of USA not Thailand.

kclo4 - 8-7-2009 at 23:29

Dang Mr. Sauron skipped over my question completely.. :(

a_bab - 8-7-2009 at 23:32

Hmmm, this is really interesting.

I understand that there are some people here, who are fascinated by the explosives. Their goal is to synth as many as possible, and to test them is grams amounts. Some would even make (interesting) videos. Once the "file" is completed, they go for the next target.
There are others into the lacrymators, vesicants, etc. I understand this, as being young I did all of these too. Nothing beats the sensation in the lungs given by a whiff of chloropicrine.
Then, there are some obsessed by poinsons. Making cyanide is something they HAVE to do, although they won't obviously test it, more then feeling the stinging bitter smell. Some would even atempt ricin extraction. Why on Earth? Well, just for the sake of it: "I've done it."

Usually all the big chemists have been atracted in this field by these "naughty" reactions.

But being one who had never been high with a single exception (during a surgery - N2O), I just can't uderstand these meth cooks. I mean, if I'd be for making meth, but not sell it, I'm certain that I'd either consume it myself, or I'd be a consumer of dopes anyway, since I'd be atracted to this side of chemistry.

Either case, something to puke on.

Explosives/poisons are much less of a problem to the forum then dopes. It's all about the dopes, since someone willing to blow up something won't learn how to on a forum anyway.

It's a personal preference, but I'd just delete all the threads involving dopes all in all. I mean, "easy ketamine"? WTF is that?


kclo4 - 8-7-2009 at 23:38

Ah tricky tricky... post the same time I do.. :P

The USA would be good.

I've noticed you have been being pretty lazy with spelling lately, something up with that? It just doesn't seem like you is all.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 23:43

kclo4

No I didn't. You asked what po;l party O most agree with. I asked in which country? I'm an American expat ;living 20 years in Thailand.

I suppose you know nothing of Thai politics and you probab do not mean Ewanda.

In USA I would bring back the Bull Moose Party as Teddy R was a hard act to follow

Typos not spelling. A combination of an overdate intraocular implant (IOL) and diabetic retinupathy. I am going blind abd having trouble seeing the keyboard well.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

kclo4 - 8-7-2009 at 23:49

Interesting, what do you think of the libertarian political party?

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 23:56

Quote: Originally posted by kclo4  
Interesting, what do you think of the libertarian political party?



Political discussions are prohibited I believe.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

kclo4 - 8-7-2009 at 23:59

Well, do you mostly agree or mostly disagree with the group?
Why do you agree/disagree about certain aspects of the libertarian party? And why?

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by kclo4]

Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 00:06

Quote: Originally posted by kclo4  
Well, do you mostly agree or mostly disagree with the group?
Why do you agree/disagree about certain aspects of the libertarian party? And why?

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by kclo4]


Political discussions are prohibited. It's a policy of polverone that I agree with.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

kclo4 - 9-7-2009 at 00:20

prohivired?

How is that any difference then talking about the ethics, consequences etc of drug cookery and how it relates to amateur chemistry?
Isn't it really all just politics and opinions that hardly relate to chemistry? Not that this thread was ever meant to relate to chemistry.

Libertarians I think would allow for a lot of amateur chemistry since they are for both economic and social freedom.

Eclectic - 9-7-2009 at 00:33

Sauron, would you please just come back inside and close the door? It's Summer, and you are letting out all the airconditioning. :D

Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 00:35

Quote: Originally posted by kclo4  
prohivired?

How is that any difference then talking about the ethics, consequences etc of drug cookery and how it relates to amateur chemistry?
Isn't it really all just politics and opinions that hardly relate to chemistry? Not that this thread was ever meant to relate to chemistry.

Libertarians I think would allow for a lot of amateur chemistry since they are for both economic and social freedom.


I do not regard being anti-drug as political. I regard Nicodem's arhument to contrary is a bogus manipulation in order to apply the political ban in order to silence me on drugs, see?


[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

kclo4 - 9-7-2009 at 00:40

Did I ever say it was electable, or even hint at it?
I was asking your opinion on it, that is really all I did.. Haha you are a nasty little bugger aren't ya?

Edit: This may not be a bad thread to boycott...

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by kclo4]

Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 00:42

Eclectic

Sorry. No.

Itls always summer in Bangkok and my room is the only one in the great big house without aircon. I an acclimatized.

I will not return to the tyranny of Nicodem.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

Nicodem - 9-7-2009 at 01:16

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
We however have our own intuition. What other uses - besides the synthesis of the aforementioned compound - can 2,5-dimethoxybenzaldehyde have to an amateur chemist, in your own personal opinion? I'm interested should you come up with anything, but I fear that is not the case.

You really should check the literature and the lists of prohibited drugs before making impulsive claims. To my knowledge there are only two drugs that can be rationally made from 2,5-dimethoxybenzaldehyde which are prohibited in most countries and maybe a couple more that are prohibited in some. These are 2-(4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)ethylamine and 1-(4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)propan-2-amine (also known by the codenames 2C-B and DOB). Both of them have no relevant value on the black market and none is considered a drug of abuse (they are both prototypical psychedelics, therefore hardly of any interest to the general public). Therefore, insinuating this benzaldehyde is used mainly by drug cooks is absurd, particularly in the view of its use for preparing many other psychedelics which are completely legal in most countries of the world. I would estimate there are at least a dozen more legal drugs that can be made from this starting material than there are illegal (which makes a ratio of about 8% illegal toward 92% legal). And this does not include a myriad of non-psychoactive organic compounds that can be made from this starting material. We have that aldehyde on the shelve at my job because someone used it for organic synthesis for some academic publication, it is not particularly common, but what I'm saying is that it is as common as many other organic compounds you can pick out of the catalogue and it has just any casual use. With this in view I would say it is >99% legitimate to sell or buy it.

Drug cooks are obviously interested in drugs they can sell and this mean they will limit their interest to drugs that can be abused like (meth)amphetamine and synthetic opiods. Me and other moderators have consistently removed, closed or otherwise inhibited posting of content that we considered to be greed motivated, but I also consistently left and even encouraged content that was amateur chemistry motivated, even if in connection to drugs, explosives or whatever you might personally consider politically touchy. Greed (love for profit) is not the same as amateur science (love for science) and sometimes it is difficult to tell what the posters motivation is. Difficult enough that it made me do some mistakes. Like Turd explained, even an amateur chemist can be legitimately interested in making amphetamine. It might be a simple target to make and as a recreational drug it pretty much sucks in comparison to many others, but it has some benefits that motivates people interests. For example, it is illegal which makes it a worthy target and it's simple enough for the beginners. Nowadays I have a hard time understanding why someone would be interested in it trough such a perspective, but even I was young once and I know that what is illegal can be more attractive to teenagers even when there are plenty of legal alternatives, some even much better. I remember when I was young and first got interested in medicinal chemistry, amphetamine was also a fascinating target for me and as such it stimulated my curiosity. Even though I never engaged in its synthesis (it lost its attractiveness when I realized it was pretty common on the black market), it was nevertheless one of the factors that directed me toward my carrier in organic synthesis. Many of my brightest colleagues admitted that during the teenage years it was either pyro or drug obsessions that sparked their love for chemistry. None of them would now consider making drugs for profit or explosives to blow up things. Some of them, including my self, now have much higher ethic standards than those who made a carrier in science by never actually loving it and would consider amateur chemistry as an abomination of their field. Damn, I even feel bad when signing a contract with a so called Big Pharma or do anything else against my ethics, but the reality is that one needs to do some dirty job from time to time in order to live in this world. Nobody is a saint, but young chemists interested in making drugs certainly are not demons either.

Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 01:32

It's entertaining to watch you gyrate and gambole through the dance to justift giving this deeply suspicious sale offer the benefit of the doubt.

Elsewhere you closed or detritused a thread for bring a prep on a scale unrelated to amateur chem. IIRD it was 500 g or a Kg. But now 500 g of this obvious presursor is cool. That is selective enforcement and that makes you a hypocrite.

I did not post in steve's sale thread, but your bending over backward like this as if you are in a game of Twister us really amusing.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

The Fountain of Discordia - 9-7-2009 at 02:06

You do realize that if psychoative chemical discussions were grounds for an instant and total perma ban, that on other chemistry forums, people would talk about it anyway, only more... right? It's pointless, in the end to try to limit discussion about psychoactives. Shut people up in one place, and they move to another. Bottom line, stopping it here will not change anything, letting it continue here will again, not change anything. The idiot public will continue to look down on us, and this hobby of ours will slowly become impossible. This argument is pointless not only because of this, but because of a fact that most seem to not be paying credence to. The idiot public are many, and amateur chemists are few. They are and always will be the majority. They shall and always will oppose anything that makes them feel inferior and/or endangered in the slightest way.

Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 03:16

I do not care where they go and what they do as long as they are out of the forum I have in mind.

The object is a forum free of kewls, idiots and cooks.

I am trying to solve the problems of one forum not the world.

Let them light at E&W, wetdreams, designer-drugs, I could care less.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

benzylchloride1 - 9-7-2009 at 10:49

Heres a possible solution to the drug problem on this forum. Members who wish to post topics on phenethylamine synthesis should have to synthesize a specific enantiomer; this would stop most talk about these drugs because most drug cooks make racemic mixtures of these compounds and have no knowledge of asymmetric synthesis. This way they would actually be conducting fairly challanging chemistry. Also they must provide infrared spectra, melting points, optical rotary dispersion, and chromatograms of their "goods". I do not see why people are attracted to being screwed up on drugs. Eventually health problems arise that will affect them for the rest of their lives. If you want to synthesize some thing illegal, make some phosphorous as this has many non-drug uses and would greatly benefit the amateur science community if a synthesis that produces more then 10g could be found. There are many other more interesting compounds then some amine that makes the brain go crazy. The professor that accused me of being a criminal for asking about some empty solvent bottles was a former drug cook. These drug cooks destroy amateur science and discourage students from studying the field. Most students at my university that are chemistry majors go into medicine instead of chemistry because of this professors attitude. I am constantly at odds with this professor because of my hobby. The other professors are told not to encourage my interest in chemistry because of his bias toward my hobby because of his drug cook experience. Drug cooks are not amateur scientists; a distinction should be made, they are generally only interested in the quickest way to make something in order to get screwed up. I synthesize many compounds that have very few practical applications because i am intersted in the synthetic chemistry involved. The reactions involved in amphetamine and methamphetamine synthesis can be demonstrated by other none drug compounds. The only reason to synthesize these compounds is to use them to act goofy, destroy your life, possibly make some quick money if thats your intent, and eventually end up in prison, ruining the rest of your life.


[Edited on 9-7-2009 by benzylchloride1]

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by benzylchloride1]

12AX7 - 9-7-2009 at 11:35

Wow, 5 new pages of posts a day. Who needs cable TV? "We know drama"? They don't know drama!

I still don't get the Goodbye Tour thing though. Can you actually quit, Sauron? "I can quit, I've done it lots of times!!"

I love your down-to-earth honesty and chemical talent, Sauron. But I don't get why you'd bother leaving, let alone quasi-leaving, let alone twice, LET ALONE being a drama queen worthy of reality television in the process. Sure there are idiots here. Fuck 'em and get on with your life. If you're not leaving, deal with it. If you're leaving here, leave for good.

Tim

Saerynide - 9-7-2009 at 11:38

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
The object is a forum free of kewls, idiots and cooks.

Kewls are one thing to hate... but the rest of us without PhDs all have to start somewhere. Not all of us majored in chemistry, and most of us probably can't even remember all the basic organic reactions (I myself being one of them... because I never went to class...) Not everyone who's not at your level is an idiot, and it does not mean they cannot learn. People might ask what seems like a dumb question, but if they dont feel it's a dumb question, then it's not a dumb question. If your 5 yearold asked you "why are plants green", you wouldn't tell her to shut up and stop asking stupid questions, would you? Bad professors ignore you and give you the "you're a dumb undergrad" glare. Good professors explain the solution or show you good sources of help.

Though I very often come across things I don't understand and cannot contribute to, I still find them fascinating and benefit from reading them. To insult everyone who may not be on the same level as you is simply being pretentious.

Many interests in chemistry stem from fascinations with psychoactive agents. We even have courses about illegal drugs (and these are highlevel bio courses), and we're part of the Ivy League. My professor knew Terence Mckenna and is stoked for the day psychedelics will be allowed again in academic research. Not all people interested in recreational substances are trying to make money by killing other people. Some just want to learn. Maybe they want to know, just because it's illegal, or just because it's dangerous, or just to say they did it. Young people do that. How did I earn a professional IT certification by highscool? Because I watched the movie Hackers back in middle school and thought it was really cool. Why did I dive off a cliff? Just to tell myself I did it. Is it wrong to become a wine connoisseur because one first discovered alcohol by binge drinking at frat parties during the dumb freshman days?

So you hate drugs. Fine, I respect others' opinions. I also hate bombs and terrorists. Yet I find it a valid science to experiment with energetic materials. Infact, I love the demonstrations and I find it quite interesting to listen in on those threads, even when I don't get most of it. Personal hatred does not discount topics from scientifc relevance. In a scientific discussion, psychoactive compounds are as much about chemistry as wave functions and grignard reactions.

What are *not* part of scientific discussions are ad hominem arguments like calling people "cabron" and "SOB". I tried to ignore your cynical remarks, but since the hardest field in chemistry thread, I realized you really are just being unreasonable. You did not bother to read my post, but instead fired flame after flame making unfounded accusations simply because I disagreed with you. I actually debated whether to even post a reply, as clearly, it made no sense to argue with people who cannot argue properly. I posted the reply, hoping maybe you just had a bad day, but I stood corrected.

I am not urging you to leave, despite your having inferred I was uneducated biblethumper (I am a chemical engineer, FYI), because I can objectively say your knowledge is a great asset of this board. However, I would appreciate it if you refrained from being so condesending towards other members. This is not your forum, so please don't act like it is. Even if it was yours, I'm sure no one would appreciate such an unscientific and unprofessional attitude.

If there is nothing useful to say, there is no need to say anything.

[Edited on 7/9/2009 by Saerynide]

froot - 9-7-2009 at 11:59

The thought of taking a concoction from my glassware and ingesting it makes me shiver but let's be honest, there's chemistry there. Provide a section for drug type discussions and control it to a level within the law and that you are comfortable with.

Stating the obvious - We have a section called 'energetic materials' which is for the discussion of chemistry that is novel and unique when it comes to explosive chemicals and the like.
Why not have such a section for 'ingested materials' (for lack of a better name) where the same sort of unique chemistry is discussed for these substances?

Detritus all the crap just like you've been doing in the energetic materials section.

If you like you can have these sections password protected or group activated in such a way that only members from an approved group can post there. Another way is to set up a group for users who post crap and their posts need to get approved first.

At least then people will find it less appropriate to moan and groan about the drug cooks and 'kewls' running amock.

turd - 9-7-2009 at 12:42

Quote: Originally posted by benzylchloride1  
Heres a possible solution to the drug problem on this forum.

Actually there is no drug problem. Just one member with an exceptionally low S/N-ration being really loud and generating the illusion of a drug problem. There is, however, as in every forum, a problem with morons but that is dealt with quite appropriately, IMHO.
Quote:
Members who wish to post topics on phenethylamine synthesis should have to synthesize a specific enantiomer; this would stop most talk about these drugs because most drug cooks make racemic mixtures of these compounds and have no knowledge of asymmetric synthesis. This way they would actually be conducting fairly challanging chemistry. Also they must provide infrared spectra, melting points, optical rotary dispersion, and chromatograms of their "goods".

Brilliant idea. So basically your plan is to forbid amateur chemistry on an amateur chemistry forum. Of course only for the chemistry you disapprove of. Brilliant, but not very honest.
Quote:
I do not see why people are attracted to being screwed up on drugs. Eventually health problems arise that will affect them for the rest of their lives.

You mean like the Shulgins?
Quote:
There are many other more interesting compounds then some amine that makes the brain go crazy.

Great for you - go ahead and make them, but refrain from dictating others what to do or not to do with their free time.
Quote:
The professor that accused [...]

Factual evidence So you had one bad experience with a supposed drug chemist, therefore they must all be bad. Replace "drug cook" with your favorite racial/religious slur and your post is revealed as what it is: ill-founded prejudice without any substance.
Quote:
The only reason to synthesize these compounds is to use them to act goofy, destroy your life, possibly make some quick money if thats your intent, and eventually end up in prison, ruining the rest of your life.

And more of the same. Talking about things you know nothing about.

turd - 9-7-2009 at 12:49

Quote: Originally posted by froot  
If you like you can have these sections password protected or group activated in such a way that only members from an approved group can post there.

Please, no. A subforum is OK (but why? and where do you draw the line? - arsenic compounds have been used as psychoactives), but don't do the password thing. The openness is what I like at this place. If you really want to lock something behind passwords, do it with buy/sell requests and Sauron's drivel. ;)

setback - 9-7-2009 at 14:14

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
It's entertaining to watch you gyrate and gambole through the dance to justift giving this deeply suspicious sale offer the benefit of the doubt.

Elsewhere you closed or detritused a thread for bring a prep on a scale unrelated to amateur chem. IIRD it was 500 g or a Kg. But now 500 g of this obvious presursor is cool. That is selective enforcement and that makes you a hypocrite.

I did not post in steve's sale thread, but your bending over backward like this as if you are in a game of Twister us really amusing.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]


Why don't you just leave already for christ's sake. You're such a drama queen.

entropy51 - 9-7-2009 at 14:22

I've been thinking a lot about this thread and realized what really bothers me so much about the drug threads.

Science Madness really represents the face of amateur chemistry on the internet. There are others, especially in Europe, but we are probably the main forum in English.

I would like to see amateur chemistry once again become respectable. Maybe with the banning of certain decongestant tablets the meth craze will lessen. Maybe some suppliers might become less paranoid about selling to individuals. I know I am being overly optimistic, but one can hope.

If a significant portion of the posts in the major amateur chemistry forum are drug related and discuss procedures, that if carried out, make a felon of the chemist then our image will only continue to decline. I hate to see this happen.

A writer for an American Chemical Society publication actually joined the forum to help prepare herself to write an article on the trials and tribulations of amateur chemists. She wrote a fairly balanced article, I thought. But I wonder if she browsed the forum and noted the many drug threads? Did that stop her from writing an even more positive article about us? I don't know the answer, but one can't rule it out.

I would like to think that eventually we might even be able to enlist the ACS to help us improve the image of amateur chemistry. ACS is a fairly influential organization. Government regulatory agencies often seek their input on matters related to chemistry. Alas, I think that as long as the forum is home to drug related discussions we haven't a prayer of enlisting any mainstream organizations in the cause of rehabilitating the image of amateur chemistry.

I think this is the reason that the discussions on the forum should be well, not squeaky clean, but at least a lot cleaner than they currently are.

This is the reason that I disagree with current forum policies that if presented as interesting chemistry, discussions about illegal drugs are OK. I'm not trying to be a boy scout by any means. In many cases I doubt that our discussions help that many cooks. As someone noted above, the information is readily available elsewhere. But these discussions are extremely bad public relations and that is my concern. Take those discussions elsewhere, please.

I know some will disagree. Some will self-identify as having motives that are not conducive to promoting the image of chemistry as a legitimate hobby. But I thought I would share my thoughts with those of you who would like to see our situation improve.

Sedit - 9-7-2009 at 14:26

Keep in mind though that for almost the entire human population it is easy to form an opinion but damn near impossible to change it. This applys to the laws as well. Even if every cook on the face of the earth died tommorow it will be many decades before any laws get changed if it ever happens.

entropy51 - 9-7-2009 at 14:28

You can either curse the darkness or light a candle.

P.S. to Nicodem, who wrote "Therefore, insinuating this benzaldehyde is used mainly by drug cooks is absurd, particularly in the view of its use for preparing many other psychedelics which are completely legal in most countries of the world."

The Analog Act makes chemicals which are substantially similar to a Schedule I or II drug also a Schedule I drug in the United States. 2,5-dimethoxy analogs are probably not legal in the U.S., certainly not if they are "psychedelic".

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by entropy51]

Magpie - 9-7-2009 at 15:48

Quote:

I think this is the reason that the discussions on the forum should be well, not squeaky clean, but at least a lot cleaner than they currently are.


Where would you draw the line? Should we not discuss the making of benzaldehyde, Ac2O, methylamine HCl, KCN, pyridine, phosphorus, and so on. These all have many legitimate uses. So if we can find one legitimate use for a drug precursor does that make it OK to discuss, or is there some weighting system? Chemistry pervades all walks of life. The general public just does not realize or accept that fact. But we should.

I was surprised that on the last day of my recent refresher organic chemistry class the instructor was illustrating reductive amination. Guess which compound she used? Riiight, it was amphetamine. This was a completely innocent selection on her part, she's old school. But was it appropriate? It seems many on this board would say no.

Sure, the moderators can tighten up on what they allow. But they will always be second guessed. You wouldn't want this forum to turn into another "What can we show the kids that demonstrates science?" forum would you? Then all we would be discussing is vinegar/bicarbonate volcanoes, cabbage pH indicators, and the like. There's enough of that on the internet already.

You are asking the moderators to infer the intent of posters in the same way you do, then take action if they have any suspicion it's drug, bomb, or CW related. They usually do once they have given the poster fair audience.

Do you want them to start pulling books out of the forum library too - like Sartori?

entropy51 - 9-7-2009 at 17:23

Magpie, I thought I answered this question yesterday. I said:

"MeNH2, benzaldehyde, Ac2O aren't the issue for me. It's phenylpropanone and phenyl-2-bromopropane, etc., the direct precursors. And the routes to go from precursor to finished "product". You will find those here, thinly disguised or not at all disguised."

I don't even see a problem discussing iodine or phosphorus, they're just elements on the periodic table. They have so many legal uses that I don't think the average chemist would attach any stigma to such a discussion. When you veer off into methods to make phenylpropanone however, most chemists become highly suspicious about your motives, and rightly so. It's a scheduled compound.

It's just a matter of the smell test, and some of our threads quite frankly don't smell too good to me or the average chemist. I've worked in industry and I've seen the negative reaction when some of these precursors are mentioned.

I think you must be playing devil's advocate. You know there's a lot of chemistry in between phenylpropanone and vinegar and baking soda. For example, ALL of the chemistry in the lab manual by Brewster that we both like so much is above suspicion. I may be mistaken, but I don't recall ever having seen a post of yours that I would consider questionable. The same goes for Woelen, someone who clearly loves chemistry and has a fantastic web site without a single questionable experiment that I know of. But as DJF90 rightly pointed out above, threads with "amphetamine" or "ketamine" in their title are out of place except for the drug forums. It's not a matter of inferring the intent of the poster, it's a matter of whether they explicitly invoke an illegal drug or an immediate precursor. Almost any reaction I can think of can be discussed wtihout aiming for a molecular target that's a Schedule I drug. Don't you agree?

As benzylchloride1 pointed out so well above, medicinal chemistry is an extremely interesting field, one of the most fascinating in chemistry. There are thousands of legal and non-psychoactive drugs whose synthesis we should be attempting and discussing as an alternative to dope cooking. If we're really interested in the science of it all, that is.

I'm not trying to impose my values on others. That would be a waste of time. As I tried to explain above, amateur chemistry has a public relations problem. As members of one of the most visible websites for amateur chemistry I think we can easily be above reproach without dumbing down the forum or becoming boring. What I think is boring is yet another synthetic route to phenylpropanone. We all know all those already.

And I have no problems with the books in the forum library.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]

ender - 9-7-2009 at 18:06

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  


Forum members as old as Sauron and myself can remember the days when the local pharmacist would sell us any chemical we needed. We could even order from the major lab suppliers. We can also remember the 1970's and 80's when the rise of drug abuse paralleled the disappearance of reagents and glassware. It came long before the war on terror. That is no coincidence.
[entropy51]


I thought of your comment today when I read the following....It's from the Nobel speech of Kary Mullis:
Quote:

By the time Watson and Crick were being honored here in Stockholm in 1962, I had been designing rockets with my adolescent companions for three years. For fuel, we discovered that a mixture of potassium nitrate and sugar could be very carefully melted over a charcoal stove and poured into a metal tube in a particular way with remarkable results. The tube grew larger with our successive experiments until it was about four feet long. My mother grew more cautious and often her head would appear out of an upstairs window and she would say things that were not encouraging. The sugar was reluctantly furnished from her own kitchen, and the potassium nitrate we purchased from the local druggist.

Back then in South Carolina young boys seeking chemicals were not immediately suspect. We could even buy dynamite fuse from the hardware with no questions asked. This was good, because we were spared from early extinction on one occasion when our rocket exploded on the launch pad, by the very reliable, slowly burning dynamite fuses we could employ, coupled with our ability to run like the wind once the fuse had been lit. Our fuses were in fact much improved over those which Alfred Nobel must have used when he was frightening his own mother. In one of our last experiments before we became so interested in the maturing young women around us that we would not think deeply about rocket fuels for another ten years, we blasted a frog a mile into the air and got him back alive. In another, we inadvertently frightened an airline pilot, who was preparing to land a DC-3 at Columbia airport. Our mistake.

At Dreher High School, we were allowed free, unsupervised access to the chemistry lab. We spent many an afternoon there tinkering. No one got hurt and no lawsuits resulted. They wouldn't let us in there now. Today, we would be thought of as a menace to society. If I'm not mistaken, Alfred Nobel for a time was not allowed to practice his black art on Swedish soil. Sweden, of course, was then and still is a bit ahead of the United States in these matters.

I never tired of tinkering in labs. During the summer breaks from Georgia Tech, Al Montgomery and I built an organic synthesis lab in an old chicken house on the edge of town where we made research chemicals to sell. Most of them were noxious or either explosive. No one else wanted to make them, somebody wanted them, and so their production became our domain. We suffered no boredom and no boss. We made enough money to buy new equipment. Max Gergel, who ran Columbia Organic Chemicals Company, and who was an unusually nice man, encouraged us and bought most of our products, which he resold. There were no government regulators to stifle our fledgling efforts, and it was a golden age, but we didn't notice it. We learned a lot of organic chemistry.





entropy51 - 9-7-2009 at 18:18

Yeah, Ender, those were the days! A lot of it sounds familiar, or at least similar.

If you haven't read "Uncle Tungsten - Memories of a Chemical Boyhood" by Oliver Sachs by all means find a copy in a used bookstore. He grew up in the 1940's in England and tells some great stories of an even earlier time.

Welcome to Science Madness! You've been so quiet we hardly knew you were here.

ender - 9-7-2009 at 18:38

Thanks for the welcome. I'll definitely get "Uncle Tungsten - Memories of a Chemical Boyhood" by Oliver Sachs.

Funny you mention books about the old days of chemistry. I found that quote of Mullis searching for information on Max Gergle. He wrote the book "Excuse Me Sir, Would You Like to Buy a Kilo of Isopropyl Bromide?" It's also supposed to be a very entertaining read.

Magpie - 9-7-2009 at 19:27

Quote:

I don't even see a problem discussing iodine or phosphorus, they're just elements on the periodic table. They have so many legal uses that I don't think the average chemist would attach any stigma to such a discussion.


What you say may be true for the average chemist. But this would not be true for laymen reading a discussion of these elements. I occaisionally discuss metallurgy outside this forum, but in doing so I would never mention the word phosphorus.
Quote:

I think you must be playing devil's advocate


To some degree you are right. I'm just an advocate of free speech and openness. I think that is why we have such an interesting and productive forum.

I know what you are saying about something not passing the smell test: application specific but evasive, poorly worded request, or presented in a non-professional manner, or even offensively presented, and of course, drug or drug precursor related. You can smell it when you see it.

It really does come down to "smell," and this sense gets fairly well developed by forum members, and fairly quickly too.





Sedit - 9-7-2009 at 19:51

You know what I think smells?

That this threed has pretty much accomplished nothing but taking over this forum for the past few days and is setup as an attempt to segregate the members of this forum and to arouse more suspicion and disruption thru out the rest of the REAL amature science forum. To me that really stinks that the other topics about chemistry are getting ignored more now just to view a threed about someone crying wolf. I am guilty of this as well but its probably time that we get on with our forum lives with or without Sauron. If he wants to join us thats fine as his knowlage is useful and if he wants to leave thats fine to as his disruption is disrespectful.

Saerynide - 9-7-2009 at 19:52

Quote: Originally posted by ender  

I thought of your comment today when I read the following....It's from the Nobel speech of Kary Mullis:


Kary Mullis also came up with PCR based on inspiration from an acid trip. (from his book, Making of PCR)
;)

[Edited on 7/10/2009 by Saerynide]

Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 20:04

My proposed bans on posts about illicit drugs, explosives and chemical weapons have been put forwatd to the admin od a new forum and he has accepted them. That forum will be active in a few weeks.

Magpie

As chemists we know what is an immediate precursor to an illicit drug and what is a general reagent. We also know what immediate precursors to illegal drugs have significant other chemical utility and which do not.

Many threads on this forum have dealt with prep of P2P and substituted P2Ps. P2P has some industrial uses but not one single post or thread on this forum has been advanced about any such use in the 6 years SM has been running. Amd we all KNOW what the members making it are making it for. Don't play See No Evil games.

I would ban NOT ONE post about a compound with significant chemical utility.

I would not ban tetrazoles, picric acid, and other energetic materials with chemical utility.

I would put a stop to the stupid ATTP posts from kewls and idiots.

The admin would have the discretion to allow or ban posts where there is room for reasonable doubt. I suppose most less than novel posts on TNT would get banned, but someone with something new to say can go ageas, The vast majority of posts about TNT, RDC, PETN ate from kewls and idiots, same old same old, or else newbies in search osf spoonfeeding who ought to be reading books.

Serious energetics chemists are welcome. Example: Axt.


Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 20:20

Sedit

That this thread has been at or near the top for several days is due not to me but to the obvious fact that a nerve has been struck.

Quite a few members agree with me and a few have been willing to come forward and express themselves publicly.

Polverone care not except to regurgitate his hollow policies that amount to appearance without substance. Polverone is a natural politician - an insult in case he does not know it.

Various opponents, some of them clearly drug cooks like turd, so aptly named, are noisily on the other side.

That's not a conspiracy at work, it's a grassroots insurrection and soon to be followed by an exodus. No Red Sea to cross, even, and no Pharoah and his army in chase.


Sedit - 9-7-2009 at 20:36

No suggestions of conspiracy its just that I see alot of hypocrisy when the forum go's "offline" for people to bitch about people not talking about amature chemistry topics. Of couse a nerve was struck and will be so anytime you bring politics and what I consider religion into a forum. If there is an exodus so be it. Maybe it should have happened along time ago before our forum was over run by people whining about others not sharing there beliefs of right and wrong. The one thing I can say nice about drug cooks is you will never hear them on this forum bitching and moaning and totaly disrupting the forum because you all don't synthesis drugs.

Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 21:02

Nothing to do with politics

Nothing to so with religion - I am 100% irreligious

Nothing to do with right and wrong.

EVERYTHING to do with what is good for amateur chemistry versus what is destroying amateur chemistry.

Drug cooks are destroying amateur and hobby chemistry.

If you cannot see that either you are deaf, dumb and blind, or, you have an agenda of your own.

Find yourself a pinball machine.

Sedit - 9-7-2009 at 21:10

I honestly do see that they are.
I also see that there other half has a larger hand in it also which everyone fails to see appearently. You can't stop drug makers because carbon is to versatile so the DEA's banning of all these things if futile and they know it.

But more importantly is right now whats destroying amature chemistry is whinning about drug cooks instead of discussing chemistry.

Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 21:26

This has nothing to so with stopping drug cooking, the nsture of carbon, or the DEA.\\It has nothing to do with anything BUT an initiative to have an amateur chemistry forum at least substantially free from kewls, idiots, and drug cooks.

Not this forum, sad to say. This forum is overrun by kewls, idiots and cooks and the admin and mods merely make a pretense of reversing that.

But a new forum where such as I proposed is the wish and will of the admin. A place safe for CHEMISTS not cooks.

And no matter what anyone says a chemist who cooks illicit drugs is a cook. He need not say SWIM, he need not ask for spoonfeeding, and he need not use doper acronyms, He is still a cook.

Sedit thinks I am destroying amateur chemistry somehow with this thread. I would like to point out that this thread is not monolithic. I would also like to point out that there are 19 other threads in the Todays Posts page at this time. And I would mention that this forum is not the entirety of amateur chemistry.

Logic clealrly is not your strong suit, sedit, Get that pinball machine and play some mean pinball, you deaf dumb and blind Pinball Wizard. Such a supple wrist!

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]

Sedit - 9-7-2009 at 21:40

Quote:
This forum is overrun by kewls, idiots and cooks

Bullshit!

I will not waste anymore of my time discussing this with you as driving this entire threed forward was the opposite of my intent in the first place. You want a safe place without cooks so be it. Go, live long and prosper, and when you realise your efforts are futile then we can regain a legitimate discussion on the topic.

Good day.

Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 21:53

You ain't no Vulcan. "Get cancer and die quickly", is closer to your meaning, I reckon.

Sedit - 9-7-2009 at 21:54

ok

watson.fawkes - 9-7-2009 at 22:06

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
My proposed bans on posts about illicit drugs, explosives and chemical weapons have been put forwatd to the admin od a new forum and he has accepted them. That forum will be active in a few weeks.
Allow me to summarize. Sauron picked a political fight with the management. He lost. The policies of Sciencemadness are not changing. At his disposal he had two tools: an opinion about the nature of public perception and a threat to leave. He has hardly argued the opinion, mostly resorting to name-calling. The value of his departure is at worst a mixed loss. I am hardly surprised at the result, given such a bad hand, played loudly. Now he claims a win because someone who knows about bit about software and hosting is willing to listen to him.

One defeat, one victory. I trust it's clear to all the relative magnitude of these.


Sauron - 9-7-2009 at 22:37

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
My proposed bans on posts about illicit drugs, explosives and chemical weapons have been put forwatd to the admin od a new forum and he has accepted them. That forum will be active in a few weeks.
Allow me to summarize. Sauron picked a political fight with the management. He lost. The policies of Sciencemadness are not changing. At his disposal he had two tools: an opinion about the nature of public perception and a threat to leave. He has hardly argued the opinion, mostly resorting to name-calling. The value of his departure is at worst a mixed loss. I am hardly surprised at the result, given such a bad hand, played loudly. Now he claims a win because someone who knows about bit about software and hosting is willing to listen to him.

One defeat, one victory. I trust it's clear to all the relative magnitude of these.



You pervert the facts.

I did not "pick a political fight" with management or anyone else. A moderator told me that he would delete any post in which I criticizeed DRUG FORUMS e.g. erowid, wetdreams, designer-drugs. I protested to Polveronee, he backed Nicodem.

I made no threat to leave. I SIMPLY LEFT.

I linger in this one thread to answer the lies of solo who called ME a cook among other lies. Until solo promulgated his lies I did not post at all.

I have posted nowhere else.

No more lies, no more distortions, and I will leave finally and forever. If lies and distortions resume, you all may witness a haunting.

The forum is lost to all but the cooks, kewls, and idiots. Some of you know it, some are in denial.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]

Nicodem - 10-7-2009 at 01:18

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  

You pervert the facts.

I did not "pick a political fight" with management or anyone else. A moderator told me that he would delete any post in which I criticizeed DRUG FORUMS e.g. erowid, wetdreams, designer-drugs. I protested to Polveronee, he backed Nicodem.

I can understand your need to resort to perverting facts and at the same time accusing others to do so. Every good politician should be able to use such basic tricks, but what you forgot is that I still have the warning I sent you in the U2U outbox. Here it is, just in case you managed to forgot it:
Quote:
From: Nicodem
To: Sauron
Folder: Outbox
Sent: 3/7/2009 at 08:03
Message: I just wanted to warn you that from now I will delete your posts where you try to incite flame wars via moralising about the Rhodium archive, Erowid, and the rest of internet content that you dislike. It is your personal/political issue, so stop forcing it to others. Whatever conflict you and Solo or whoever else had, it is up to you two to resolve it. Others don't care about it, but most here care about the posting quality and general communication level.

And don't try to moralise about how I dare to post private messages, because it was you who first manipulated with this data!

Just in case anybody missed the context. The warning was issued after Sauron's double use of his primitive tricks of starting a flame war based on his personal political views in regard to external internet sources and humiliating others on this base. The first flame war was cleaned up by The_Davster and after he started it again in another thread just the next day, it was obvious something needs to be done. Also, all this is pretending of being repressed is all a big drama as he knows from since he registered that the moderators clean up flame wars by deleting the pertaining posts. Pretending surprise at it after having experienced it for more than two years is pathetic.

[Edited on 10/7/2009 by Nicodem]

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 02:08

Dear Petty Tyrant Nicodem

You lie to the forum, your abnormally large nose will grow longer still.

Here is the post in question

"J Biol Chem is free online all the way bacl to the start. There's no need to go slumming with the ccrack ho's of erowid,

HBr (g) is soluble in GAA to 6N or more. Often used as a peptide reagent.

I obtained the Carter paper from JVC site, indeed as steve surmised it is very clearly HBr (g) 150 g dissolved in 200 g GAA (starting weight) for a total mass 350 g.

FW HBr 81 so 150 g is 1,8 mols so solution is approx 9 M whoch is reasonable.

Readin the instruction as 150 g HBr in 50 g GAA for total 200 g leads to an absurd molarity of 36.

NOT HBr aq 48% w;/w in GAA.

Fisher sells 33% w/w HBr in GAA at a reasonable price.

But this stoff is a lot stronger. "

The post was written to inform my friend chemrox of an open access journa; and an experimental error.

You LIE when you say it was "polirical"

You LIE when you sat it was intended to incite a flame war. It was intended to incite NOTHING save perhaps a laugh. The entire part of the post you object to is SIX words LONG.

NO ONE has the right ot avility to guage my INTENT, you are not a telepeth.

FYI Polverone said he would have not touched this post.

Those six words insulted no member of SM, it was a joculae slur against another website. Erowid.

The so called flame war was TWO POSTS, one from solo and a retort from me. There followed a few posts from the usual kibbitzers. All wiped now by The Dayster. You call that a flame war? Bullshit.

Your lies are your retrograde attempt to justify your petty tyranny and micro-moderation.

You remain a hypocrite. And everyone sees that,

Six words, Nicodem. Six words that will cost you dearly.

Sic semper tyranis!

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]

Nicodem - 10-7-2009 at 02:58

In order to not insult you and to do you some honour on your departure, I will rather resort to cite your own favourite phrase:

Take your meds, Sauron.

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 03:01

Your Big Lie, Nicoderm (I have decided you make more sense as a aid in quitting cigarettes) is that my views on drugs are "political" when they are not. Nor religious, nor moralistic.

They ate not.

Ypur HYPOCRISY is that you have your own strong opinions on the same subject and so does polverone for that matter, but neither of you divorce your own views from how you run this forum. Now tell us all that YOUR vires are not political.

You invoke the word political solely so you can invoke the draconian (but still unevenly enforced) political vab, that is a LIE.

And you do so while encoding your own opposing views into your actions as a moderator. If I am "political" SO ARE YOU and you know it. In fact neither are political, but then your argument for censorship collapses.

Lacking INTENT to flame, I can hardly be held responsible for the irrational actions of your felloe Hive Bee SOLO, he flamed ME and far from the first time.

Did you warn solo? Of course not you bees stick together.

Hypocrite. Liar. Unfit to be a moderator. Now exposed for what you are.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 03:23

I do take my meds, Nicoderm, not the sort you mean though.

A gram of glucophage for diabetes (guanylguanidine)
Three different pills for hypertension
One for lipid reduction
and a baby aspirin for cardiotonic

Golden years - bah!

The Fountain of Discordia - 10-7-2009 at 03:35

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  

I made no threat to leave. I SIMPLY LEFT.


And... uh... you're posting via cascades in the quantum probability fields generating pulses of electrons that seem to be you logging in, and seem to you be postring but aren't... ... ???

Look, it's not my place to say this, but it needs to be said: if you've left, then STFU and GTFO, because that is what LEAVING means!!!

Otherwise, drop the damn pretense and stop trolling.

Also, your spelling has slowly gotten worse and worse

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]

DJF90 - 10-7-2009 at 03:53

Hahaha I love n00bs that think they're all that, using acronyms and shit. If you cared to read then you'd know sauron is losing his eyesight, and not his ability to spell. Sauron is just defending himself agains the lies that have been brought against him, anyone with half a brain could tell that. If you dont like him sticking around in this thread then dont read it. Its not like you will miss anything imortant here (the instructions for drug synthesis are found elsewhere on the site - we even have an "easy" way to ketamine!)

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by DJF90]

entropy51 - 10-7-2009 at 04:01

DJF90, I think the following link might be relevant to your point (and much of this thread):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem



[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]

The Fountain of Discordia - 10-7-2009 at 04:22

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
Hahaha I love n00bs that think they're all that, using acronyms and shit. If you cared to read then you'd know sauron is losing his eyesight, and not his ability to spell. Sauron is just defending himself agains the lies that have been brought against him, anyone with half a brain could tell that. If you dont like him sticking around in this thread then dont read it. Its not like you will miss anything imortant here (the instructions for drug synthesis are found elsewhere on the site - we even have an "easy" way to ketamine!)

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by DJF90]


I used the acronyms because of an illogical attitude I hold that the acronyms are less obscene then their fully spelt out equivalents, ok? Also, I'd appreciate it if you spelled newbie with o's, or better yet as "newb" or even better still as "newbie". Elite speak is a debasement of the already screwy language that we all use here.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]

DJF90 - 10-7-2009 at 04:22

Maybe I am an arrogant prick. But I feel that post summarises a point. If I remember correctly Mr "fountain of discordia" was "swim"ing not too long ago...
EDIT: How did you know I put the 0's in on purpose? Last time I checked o and 0 are right next to eachother on the keyboard ;)

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by DJF90]

The Fountain of Discordia - 10-7-2009 at 04:29

Yes, I was indeed. However, if you properly read that thread, you would note that in that case SWIM was not being used as a riciulous cover, but in the correct and proper context of the acronym, my friend, who is indeed Someone Who Isn't Me.

DJF90, you have attacked other new and inexperienced people like phZero, and now I appear to be in the cosseyes as well. While I appreciate your holy war against the inexperienced(Hell, I even understand it.), it's ridiculously off topic here. Feel free to harass me elsewhere though.

Edit: Who says you did? It only takes a moment to go though your post for any glaring mistakes though. Or you might just be used to spelling newbie as n00b. Never meant to imply it was intentional.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]

DJF90 - 10-7-2009 at 04:35

Inexperienced people I can handle - we all have to start somewhere. Its idiots that I don't like. phZero is one such example. See the "tour my lab" thread if you dont beleive me. It has nothing to do with lack of knowledge of chemistry - although elementary stuff should be read in a book. It's about practising our hobby safely and responsibly so as to not cause any more hassle for us amateur chemists.

I lost my temper with you earlier FoD, I apologise.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by DJF90]

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 04:52

Fountain of Offal

I'll have to stay a little longer just to piss you off.

PS

KMRIA

Fartingnoise

Same to you.

Entropy and DJK

Don't waste energy on these pygmies. I've seen brighter creatures running round barnyards with their heads cut off.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]

DJF90 - 10-7-2009 at 04:55

Oh sauron do you have to go? I sure will miss you're sense of humour :P

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 05:05

DJF

You will not have long to wait before you can appreciate my bon mots elsewhere.

Perceptibe afficianados of British comedy will recognize the closing remark of my last post as being from the remodelling episode of FAWLTY TOWERS, spoken by Basil Fawlty in re O'Reilly the Irish contractor.

If anyone needs an explanation of KMRIA feel free to ask. It is less obscene than STFU or GTFO.

DJF90 - 10-7-2009 at 05:09

I'm sure those who are not familiar are capable of using google - I had to to refresh my memory.

Sauron: Before you depart I posted a procedure for anthranilic acid in the appropriate thread. Hopefully it will be more successful than the other attempts.

Nicodem - 10-7-2009 at 05:18

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
Inexperienced people I can handle - we all have to start somewhere. Its idiots that I don't like. phZero is one such example. See the "tour my lab" thread if you dont beleive me. It has nothing to do with lack of knowledge of chemistry - although elementary stuff should be read in a book. It's about practising our hobby safely and responsibly so as to not cause any more hassle for us amateur chemists.

Look, the irresponsibility of pHzero surely is beyond limits, but taking up an elitist attitude of the style "I'm so much better than you" makes no good to anybody, least to him. I really don't see what you were trying to do when you insulted him in the first place, nor do I see what is the point of exposing him once more to this same treatment. He is young and he loves to do experiments. Almost by rule the consequence of these two factors yields irresponsibility. If you feel so much mature, then simply explain him what is wrong instead of using ad hominem attacks like calling him idiot. Maybe you should read the biography excerpt from Kary Mullis posted by Ender a page behind. I guess you would call him an idiot as well, yet he got a nobel prize.

DJF90 - 10-7-2009 at 05:36

You're trying to be telepathic again Nicodem - I am not taking the attitude "I am so much better than you"; more "I wish you'd learn to experiment safely and be responsible so you dont cost us all our hobby". pHzero is "subjected" to my torment because he is as of yet the most irresponsible "chemist" I have seen. Once he sorts his storage out and learns basic safety I shall begin to encourage him - until then, no cookie.

Again telepathy is not your strong point - I DID read the biography abstract of Kary Mullis - we've no doubt all made mistakes in our time. I bet they didnt store sulfuric acid and potassium ferricyanide on their bedside tables though. Any chemist (such as yourself) will know this is a "recipe" for disaster. And thats just what amateur chemistry needs to hit the headlines right now - then our situation will take a rather sharp turn for the worst.

entropy51 - 10-7-2009 at 05:37

Interesting that Nicodem singled out DJF90, who later apologized to Fountain. DJF's post was not nearly as insulting as the post he was responding to in which Fountain told Sauron to Shut the F*** Up and accused him of trolling. But Fountain was not admonished.

[Edited] Nicodem pointed out that pHzero, not Fountain, was called an idiot.

Somewhat disingenuous?

Kary seems to be the only Nobelist who claimed the prize with the aid of LSD. I think it ill-advised to generalize that feat to other acid-heads.

I also think it's revealing that any attempt to seriously discuss the illegal drug issue is always derailed by name-calling and personal attacks. It's a pretty effective way to silence those members who disagree with those in favor of illegal drug threads, isn't it?:(

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]

Nicodem - 10-7-2009 at 05:48

Entropy51, DJF did not call Fountain an idiot (as far I can see, unless he edited it out). He called that way a teenager (pHzero) who in another thread posted some photos of his lab (if that can be called a lab at all). On the photos it was obvious his place was a mess and a potential danger, yet there was no reason to call him idiot. I see no reason why to treat teenagers that way. I know exactly what I would think of a person calling me that way if I was a teenager, and my feelings toward him would certainly not help me clean up the mess in the lab.

Obviously I will not gonna teach DJF and Fountain lessons about their mutual arrogant behaviour when they already settled things out, but exposing pHzero again as an idiot and in his absence is... well, I already explained.

watson.fawkes - 10-7-2009 at 05:51

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  

You pervert the facts.

I did not "pick a political fight" with management or anyone else. A moderator told me that he would delete any post in which I criticizeed DRUG FORUMS e.g. erowid, wetdreams, designer-drugs. I protested to Polveronee, he backed Nicodem.

I made no threat to leave. I SIMPLY LEFT.
Politics is about making common decisions in a confined location, decisions about actions to take. It extends far past the apparatus of the state, far past elections and the partisans of their candidates. It reaches down to the level of family decisions. It reaches into the local bowling league. And, in the particular case, it is political issues within this discussion forum that are at stake. It is a political issue about what to do with emotionally abusive members who persist in inflaming passions about non-chemistry topics. It is a political issue about what to do about discussions about the synthesis of compounds illegal in most jurisdictions.

Now, the facts that are agreed are that Nicodem suppressed a posting by Sauron and Sauron protested. Nicodem was reacting to persistent inflammatory language; he was acting second. The political fight started, however, when Sauron decided that he would not tolerate this act of moderation. There were other actions available to Sauron. He could have, for example, reposted his original message without the offensive words. As these words were wholly unrelated to the chemical subject matter of the message, this would have made a perfectly reasonable alternative, an alternative not chosen.

It's an apparent fact that Sauron not only picked the political fight, it was picking fights over non-chemistry topics that created the occasion for the present controversy.

It's also an apparent fact that Sauron has lost this political fight.

As for Sauron's claim of having left, his previous actions belie his present claim of departure. It's like Chicken Little: "The Dark Lord is leaving! The Dark Lord is leaving!" Whatever credibility Sauron might have had before about farewells were obliterated by his own previous actions.


Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 05:57

For Nicodem to accuse a pair of .evel headed and reasonable members of arrogance boggles the mind.

They did well against the onslaughts of the bigmouthed n00b F of D., and the perpetual gadfly and kibbitzer hissingnoise, who as his handle implies rarely says anything ,ore substantive than steam escaping.

DJF90 - 10-7-2009 at 05:57

pHzero is experimenting haphazardly and very irresponsibly. He is not unaware of the dangers involved, yet he does not take precautions to minimise the dangers. This is in my eyes stupidity. A box of gloves does not cost much, and neither do a pair of safety specs. It is this total disregard of safety that in my eyes makes pHzero an idiot. And to think he had goggles there, accessible to him, yet he decided not to use them, with a very concentrated solution of sodium hydroxide - surely you see this as idiotic Nicodem. Dilute acid and it perhaps would be a different story, but strong hydroxide solutions are unforgiving towards the eyes. The fact still remains that he is risking our hobby by these dangerous practices. I think that if something were to happen and further restrictions were placed on chemistry as a result, then you would perhaps take a similar stance to me.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by DJF90]

Nicodem - 10-7-2009 at 06:18

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
surely you see this as idiotic Nicodem

No I do not see it as idiotic. I see it as irresponsible, but I also see your resort to name calling just as irresponsible. Or do you dare to say calling a young enthusiast as idiot is responsible behaviour? Responsible in what sense? Did you think you will save his life by calling him that way? It is a question of maturity, and I expected more from you.
Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  

Kary seems to be the only Nobelist who claimed the prize with the aid of LSD. I think it ill-advised to generalize that feat to other acid-heads.

You would be surprised if you knew more, but obviously you know almost nothing about psychedelics. I don't know why you have this need to call those who do have personal experience as "acid-heads", but all that shows is that you are in no position to judge.
Quote:
I also think it's revealing that any attempt to seriously discuss the illegal drug issue is always derailed by name-calling and personal attacks. It's a pretty effective way to silence those members who disagree with those in favor of illegal drug threads, isn't it?:(

In this thread, I saw way more name calling directed to those few that were against any censorship based on some specific political viewpoints than vice versa. We already have one censorship policy at this forum, that is to only allow scientific discourse. I think that is more than enough. There were several threads that I would like to censor based on my political viewpoints and refrained from doing so just because the poster abode to forum rules and used scientific discourse. Just as an example to show, how difficult this can be, this is a thread I would censor yet, because it uses scientific discourse I could not. I'll only give one example because here I really had to fight against myself not to abuse of the moderator status. The other such thread that upset immensely me was started by Sauron, luckily before I was made moderator. Nevertheless, I had to admit that I learned a lot by Sauron and drug cooks in regard to respecting others' political opinions. You might find it easy to draw a line on what is allowed to discuss or not, but you are not a moderator and have no idea what it is when you really have to censor others.

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 06:24

W-F

Defining politics to suit you argument is unworthy and renders the word meaningless. As a graduate political scienrist I reject your definition.

Inflammatory inscfmfmmatory. Ever hears of the de minimus principle. Trivia is what it was and trivi does not matter. Polverone stated in a PM to me that he personally would NOT have taken the action Nicodem did, but he backed Nicodem anyway - to be expected in any chain of command. Have you never seen a Good Cop/Bad Cop team in action?

Nicodem did what he did because it suited his agenda. End of story. Almost 2.5 years ago in a public post he called me a provocateur out to destroy the foru. He never changed his mind. I protested when he was elevated to mod. No avail. The events of the past week are the culmination of Nocidel's goal to drive me out of here.

I resisted until my own strategic goal of a serious chemical library was realized, the last of it thanks to alter. I am largely indepemdemt of References and anyway have plenty of friends still here and can get what I need by proxy, I calculate therefore that the forum has more to lose by my defection than I do. Therefore Nicodem can enjoy his victory, even if it is a pyrrhic one.

Volumes XI-XVI of Nellor will gwt scanned by me, but my scans will never be here, or anywhere else on the Net. Same with Reid and whatever else I can in future. Generosity means little to polverone compared to letting his pet attack dog chew on my ankle over trivia.

No telepathy was required on my part, Nicodem's public and private staenebts abd his actions for almost all the time I was registered are consistent and the tapestry easy to read.



[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]

DJF90 - 10-7-2009 at 06:24

Nicodem: If he doesnt see himself that storing chemicals like that is dangerous (which he obviously doesnt or he wouldnt have them stored like that) then, yes, I feel it is responsible to tell him how stupid it is. It would be irresponsible of me however to just ignore the situation and have him gas himself. I would hardly classify it as name calling - an idiot is someone who is stupid. I'm sure you can match the caption to the picture.

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 06:40

DJF

There are old chemists
Ans there are bold chemists
There are no old, bold chemists.

The guy is bucking for a Darwin Award nomination.

You know, Evolution in Action.

The Fountain of Discordia - 10-7-2009 at 07:05

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
I lost my temper with you earlier FoD, I apologise.


No worries. I did some quite not-right things in my other posts directed at you, so you have mine as well.

Next...

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
... in which Fountain told Sauron to Shut the F*** Up and accused him of trolling.


You see? Acronyms are quite a bit less obscene than using the phrase and inserting apostrophes! And I accused him of trolling because he IS trolling.

"But TFoD, what proof do you have???"

Well...

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  

And no matter what anyone says a chemist who cooks illicit drugs is a cook. He need not say SWIM, he need not ask for spoonfeeding, and he need not use doper acronyms, He is still a cook.


That's pretty damn clear trolling if you ask me. If you need more proof...

Next...

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  

... of the bigmouthed n00b F of D...


See? This is why I accused the guy of trolling. He notes that elitespeak annoys me, and then uses it to try to get a rise out of me.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]

Nicodem - 10-7-2009 at 07:12

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  

Polverone stated in a PM to me that he personally would NOT have taken the action Nicodem did, but he backed Nicodem anyway - to be expected in any chain of command. Have you never seen a Good Cop/Bad Cop team in action?

Just before you finally leave for real, answer this. After the last forum software upgrade (that brought with it lots of new bugs, but that is another story), there is this novelty that every action taken by the moderators is recorded as a mini-post in the thread. Show me, where have I taken any action whatsoever? As far as I can see, the only one taking any action was you by starting a farewell soap opera.
Also, you have no introspective in the internal dynamics among the moderators. So how come you know so much, unless you are playing political games? (since you are such an expert in political sciences obviously you know that politics equals fighting for power - no need to pretend of being clueless about the meaning of the word)

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 07:16

FoCrap, you clearly do not know what a troll is.

Since you ARE a loudmothed newbie cretin, it is not trolling to u.sdescribe you thus.

You have amply demonstrated those unendearing trains upthread by continuing to inject yourself into a quarrel among grownups.

Bad idea.


[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 07:22

Micodem

Again you define terms to suit yourself.

You PM to me was an action.

The Fountain of Discordia - 10-7-2009 at 07:27

Actually, I do. You see, when me and my family came under the assault of a group of racist trolls known as "/i/nsurgency", my identity was stolen, and I received several deaththreats a day, 20k emails a minute etc... That was the big stuff. There were smaller aspects too. Later I found their site and the manuals and tutorials for harassment they collected there. Your statements and style of comment are close to textbook, mate.

Also, your spelling is slipping again.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 07:35

Well, I have never heard of them, MATE, and I live in South East Asia. My style is mine own. You can take your insinuations and park them in your colon sideways.

I'm a 58 year old who fought in VN, I have Asian wife and adult son and to the sort of people you describe I would be termed a "race traitor" which is not a very good qualification for some BS Aryan Nation type militia, is it?

Anyway even were that not so - I have never been much of a joiner.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]

Polverone - 10-7-2009 at 08:23

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  

Volumes XI-XVI of Nellor will gwt scanned by me, but my scans will never be here, or anywhere else on the Net. Same with Reid and whatever else I can in future. Generosity means little to polverone compared to letting his pet attack dog chew on my ankle over trivia.

This is astounding, petty selfishness. You are going to punish me by withholding from everyone, even the members of the new forum you move on to, the books that you are going to scan anyway.

There was one time before, a while ago, that you were almost banned. I do not remember the exact thread, but there was a discussion that you made some good contributions to and then lost your temper over something. You deleted the information you had previously shared to punish the people you disliked. It's hard to make me really angry but you succeeded then. You would have been banned at once had my browser not crashed as I was posting the message explaining why. I decided to sleep on it instead of retrying, and the next morning felt that your other sharing outweighed that one deeply selfish act.

But it was never really sharing, was it? It was building up credit that you could spend. When you realized that credit can't buy new policies here you decided to throttle the flow of information to everyone.

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 08:46

Interpret things any way you like.

You didn't REALLY expect me to give any more scans to you> After you let Nicodem crap all over me? Naive. People are not built that way.

AFAIK the new forum will not have a library per se, the subject has not arisen.

New policies were never part of my thinking, I knew you were never going to alter your stance. I did expect a level playing fiels, though, and I never got that. Certainly not after you empowered a bitter enemy (you know who.)

Petty? You didn't buy the books, or the scanner, or do the labor. I gave you what you got freely, you have zero claim on the rest. I TOLD you I was scanning them for myself. Now that I have absented myself from here, why on the green earth should I give you one more page?

Surely you are not going to sing Auld Lang Syne?

If you did not see this coming, I am surprised. In that case I would advise against playing chess.

In the accounting of credits and debits, you used to have a great deal of respect accrued with me. You have squandered it. You have let Nicodem squandwe it till nothing is left. As you seem ro be difficult to anger you seem remarkably incapable of comprehending what makes others upset. You have said as much to me. Not recently. This is a blind spot in your "people skills", polverone. But that does nothing to excuse you.

I told you on July 3 a week ago to deregister me. You instead told me how to do it at my convenience. I THINK you expected me to cool down after talking it all out in this thread, and eventually slink back like I did in 2007. Isn't that the case?

I trust now you see that WILL NOT OCCUR. Not if you reversed Nicodem, not if you removed him as mod, neither of which you would even think about I am sure. The simple fact is as I nolonger respect you I can no longer trust you and it is a long dry spell since you gace me reason to think otherwise.

Goodbye, Polverone. Life is full of vicissitudes, isn't it

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]

BromicAcid - 10-7-2009 at 09:28

There are a lot of strongly opinionated people posting to this thread when it seemed the original intention was simply to state a matter of fact. There are a number of us here who will miss Sauron and many who won't. It appears to be a pretty polarizing issue. The fact of the matter is that he is leaving. Over the course of the thread he has raised a number of points regarding why he is leaving.

The problem is that these points are contentious issues for many of the people here. And when you have something that you feel strongly about the ability to accept parts of the counterargument lessens. I'll admit that a number of the points were soundly argued but no one is going to change their opinion on anything. For better or worse, the internet breeds bull-headedness, especially due to the anonymous nature of the internet. Counterpoints tend to be ignored unless they gift an opening for counter attack.

Please, this thread has gone on for some time. If Sauron leaves for good or he doesn't, maybe the powers that be should lock this thread. Regardless of this going against free speech (one of the many points to this thread) and in spite of Sauron's own right to say his goodbyes or defend himself, that is where my vote lies at the moment. Because as this tread goes on it is seemingly generating yet more animosity where it did not exist before, and as that happens the propensity of it to spill over into other threads, in other sections of this forum where it does not belong, increases greatly.

Best of luck Sauron,
Bromic

Saerynide - 10-7-2009 at 09:47

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Kary seems to be the only Nobelist who claimed the prize with the aid of LSD. I think it ill-advised to generalize that feat to other acid-heads.

Not trying to pick a fight or anything, but I just wanted to express that not everyone who experiments with LSD (or psychedelics in general) is an "acid-head" or abuser. There's a difference between responsible use and abuse. Just like not every who drinks is an alcoholic.

Speaking of which, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous quit drinking and founded AA when he saw the light on acid. One trip, even if it's a bad one, can change your life, and almost always for the better.

Obviously, I'm not saying recreational substances are great and you should try them. No, I'd never imply that, because that choice is yours and yours alone - in responsible use, one never asks anyone else to try anything.

Responsible people also never hurt anyone else with their experimentation. So why so bitter towards members here who like experimenting?

[Edit]:
Banning certain discussions are not going to change society's perception of amateur chemistry. We are but a small fish in the sea of paranoia. Everyone is so chemophobic - everything either gives you cancer, destroys the ecosystem, is a drug that will destroy society, or is a bomb to bring down planes. What difference can we actually make?

What else do we have left, if we don't have freedom of information?

[Edited on 7/10/2009 by Saerynide]

entropy51 - 10-7-2009 at 10:02

Bitter? How dare you call me bitter!

Actually, Thank you :) That's the gentlest flame that's been thrown in this thread.

Trust me, I'm not bitter. But I explained at length a couple pages back. In summary:

"Science Madness really represents the face of amateur chemistry on the internet. There are others, especially in Europe, but we are probably the main forum in English.

I would like to see amateur chemistry once again become respectable."

I have no argument with people who do want to experiment. I do take issue with the people who've ruined many rural and small towns in the US by selling meth and oxycodone. They have ruined lives and whole communities. But that's not my issue.

My issue is that I'd like to belong to an amateur chemistry discussion group that I wouldn't be ashamed to tell co-workers I participated in.

My issue is that I wish the line between amateur chemistry and dope cooking wasn't so blurred as to make them indistinguishable to the general public.

The mixture of the two on this forum contributes mightily to that blurring. Don't forget that forum members are not the only people who read this forum. I read it almost every day for six years before joining. I was so put off by the drug discussions that it took me that long to decide to sign up.

It just isn't necessary to have drug discussions to have a good amateur chemistry forum.

[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]

Sauron - 10-7-2009 at 10:32

Bromic, I have burned my bridges, can't you see? There will be no kissing and making up. It's finito.

Your solution however is no solution, like lipstick on a pig. As someone else (entropy?) said eloquently upthread, the elephant is in the tent. Not the elephant;s nostrils under the fkap. The whole pachyderm. You can't hang a big tablecloth on the jumbo and claim it's furniture. You have to deal with it or change tents.

I'm changing tents and we will be keeping our elephant guns loaded and cocked.

You have alwats been a reasonable person. So, I wish you all the best in whatever you undertake.

Adieu, or maybe au revoir.

PainKilla - 10-7-2009 at 10:55

I'd like to add my views on the state/evolution of MSDB, if you will...

When I joined in 2004, I would in retrospect most certainly classify myself as a 'kewl' or at the very least, an uninformed newbie... Irrespective of this fact, at the time I joined the forum atmosphere was *far* more forgiving than it is now. I am quite sure that some of the posts I made would have led to my being scolded for posting such crap (though, maybe I am treating my old self a little harshly) - regardless, comparing then with now, I still hold largely the same interest - chemistry.

Coming from the world of pyrotechnics / energetic materials (which are (and were)) illegal - finding a forum that actually discussed the purely scientific aspects of them was immensely interesting - after all, when you ignore the history and unfortunate things caused by them, as with anything else, they can be quite fascinating constructs. It was certainly a breath of fresh air from forums where the actual uses (ala pyrotechnics, or more nefarious goals) were the primary focus of discussion.

Similarly, drugs (neglecting all the stigma carried with them, and treating them purely from a scientific standpoint) were also quite interesting, as indeed the chemistry was associated with them. And, like energetic materials - these too, were deemed illegal...

With both areas, there was a common thing: chemistry. Of course, one could make the argument that anyone working towards creating drugs or energetic materials (or anything else for that matter) is working towards a goal, which therefore neglects the common element of all of this - chemistry.

But this simply isn't universally true. One only need to consult the literature, to see that so much chemistry has been performed with specific goals in mind - all modern chemistry is exactly this way. To say that having a goal in mind corrupts the original motivation seems quite absurd to me.

There are many different ways to make something for example - exploring different routes, performing new reactions - these things are *all* chemistry (that it is done under an amateur setting is really quite irrelevant from a philosophical context).

It is true of course, that some people are truly concerned with the value of the product, and the means are merely that and of little interest of themselves.

But, at the same time, who but the great natural philosophers of the past have investigated in this way? I am sure that everyone in modern times (at least since chemistry became widespread in society) has been charmed by chemistry by a demonstration of a product coming from a practical end: a firework, an explosive, a drug, an entertaining chemical reaction (ala woelen :) ).

It seems to me, that this site, likely all has already much of the chemists interested in the means primarily rather than the end - simply put, a site that enables any person to explore chemistry as it has in the past, allowing everyone to become a natural philosopher with respect to the elements of the world...

Naturally, we are all concerned also, about our continuing ability to do so (which could be comprimised by those with, perhaps, more nefarious purposes in mind for the product of the means used to get there). But, is it truly of any benefit to drive those people away, instead of relying on chemistry's natural charm to interest those people in the means themselves?

I imagine, no small percentage of the population of scientists has indeed first approached some field, hoping to achieve an end, but found the field itself of greater interest than the end they were hoping to achieve...

I can say as much with myself, and I am very confident that I am not alone.

What seems to be the issue, is that as the forum got older, so did the members, therefore the natural quality of the discussions grew, probably leading more 'professionally trained' members to join... But, being an amateur chemistry forum with the intent to promote, as the banner at the top of the site has long said ' the art and science of amateur experimentalism', it seems fundamentally contradictive to start heavily censoring any new members who don't seem to agree with some political ideology held by the 'greater' part of the forum - drugs, explosively, poisons - all of these things are simply elements of the world - there isn't an intrinsic moral tag attached to them - that is something attached by society.

With respect to science, I do not see how any scientist can uphold otherwise - the concern here, seems purely one of 'questionable standing in the face of the law, and thus giving potential risk in the long term.'

I agree completely, that this is of concern - giving information to any person in the world, and hoping that they are intent on using the information for good purposes, or that the nature of the information is so powerful that it induces some sort of moral transformation of said person, is probably overly optimistic.

So naturally, some standards are important to have in place. Unfortunately, I think some members appear to think that this forum *must* have some self-consistent goal that is followed by everyone using the forum - but really, what sort of self-consistency can last when you are in amateur settings? Most members probably don't even have access to physical literature (letting alone the even bigger problems in accessing literature online with the backing of an employer or university).

The purpose of the forum, in my opinion, should be to create and incite interest in those performing chemistry outside of professional settings, shouldn't it? In other words, I would imagine MSDB like an effective 'online' university that is (or should be) focused merely towards promoting and enabling people to become interested in chemistry, such that they may gain enough motivation to do future research on their own, without relying on others (but also able to ask for help when appropriate, in addition to actually having a place where they can freely do so).

If you are going to drive away all people who might be charmed, what sort of forum would you be left with, 5 or 10 years down the road? This of course, does not withold at all the discussion of advanced topics - the difference is merely that when someone inexperienced asks about some topic (whether with the means or the end in mind) - they should not be turned away by some greater (and completely irrelevant with respect to science) context such as a member's personal disagreement with whatever content is at hand...

People should be encouraged to search, as a teacher points one in the appropriate direction to self-investigate the matter... Posts should be written so people can understand... People shouldn't be discouraged for asking questions - YOU might think it's stupid, but someone else might not - and then you can spend your time, instead of reading stupid posts, doing something else - and the other person might be kind enough to add some input, or point the person in the right direction, such that future 'stupid' posts no longer happen (and also, such that the question will be put to rest, and will no longer be needed to be asked again).

So long as a post maintains some effort of thought with respect to chemistry, then I think replies should strive to educate and further encourage that sort of thinking... This is the sort of thing that led to my 'evolution' above and beyond recreational drugs and energetic materials, and led to my fascination with the greater world (and those subsets are naturally included within this new one)...

Can't we all just get along and help others with topics we deem appropriate without breaking civility in those topics with which we don't agree? In the absolute worst case scenario, you can always just not answer a post you don't agree with (or not read it at all - that even saves you the effort of dealing with other people's 'stupidity').

But why be rude at any point in time at all? Forgive and forget - it saves you both time *and* irritation.

entropy51 - 10-7-2009 at 11:15

PainKilla, thank you for some words of wisdom. Seriously. I may be only one with enough patience to read it all, though.

The forum is a microcosm of society, and unfortunately people aren't very nice to one another these days.

Saerynide - 10-7-2009 at 12:06

Painkilla: Exactly! This should not be a pro-drug or pro-explosives forum, nor anti. It should be just pro-chemistry :D


Entropy:

Sorry, if that came off as a flame. I didn't mean to offend you. No hard feelings, ok? :)

I realise we are a big part of amatuer chemistry. When I first joined this forum 6 years ago, I was fascinated by this place. It was a gem - where real science was being done by amateurs. Making sodium in your backyard?? Axehandle's (I don't believe he comes around here anymore) experiments had my jaws on the floor. Here was the only place in this world unadulterated by paranoia, where I could learn about anything without fear of people going "is this legal??"

Back then, I lived in the fine country where you are killed (trials... hahha) if you bring in illegal substances. I was a naive junior in highschool who, sitting in AP Bio class, suddenly became really interested in chemistry (how, I've absolutely no idea). I wanted to make things like H2SO4 and iodine, just for the hell of it (I didn't even know what use one had for iodine, except marvel at how pretty it was, no seriously :D) I became an avid shelf-scanner and label reader at the hardware stores, took apart Li batteries, and ran thermite reactions with my friends.

And then I realized how many drug-related discussions were going on (took me a while to "get" it). I was well, shocked, because people here talked about this kind of stuff! Just like that! And, they're serious! :o Not like the anarchist cookbook garbage that will get you killed in about 5 min after set-up.

I was also not at all interested in psychoactive chemicals, back then. I thought it was stupid for anyone to want to be messed up. But still, the fact that people talked so openly and scientifically about such topics was REALLY cool (at least, to a 16 yr old).

Since going to college back on the free (home) side of the pond, my views changed significantly. In fact, the first trip was solely for the sake of science - to know what it was like (I'm totally serious :P) I even took the precaution to chain one hand (using plastic cable-ties) to a bed post lest I tried to jump out a window :D. I was freaked out beyond measure for 10 torturing hours, haha. When I came back to the real world, it became so obvious, how important life was, because I thought I would never come back. Now, I'm 23 and absolutely certain I want to pursue a career in the pharmaceutical industry (cancer drugs), because life *is* that important, and I want to preserve it and make it better.

In the East, I've had my fair share of paranoia, thinking "they" were on to me (hahha, a 16 yr old, trying to make H2SO4 by electrolysis of bath salt, and they "on" to me?? :D), and getting angry at how you can't even buy NaOH drain cleaner here... I tried to buy Al powder, telling them I'm an art student making metallic paint, and people thought I was insane!

I understand why you care for the face of amatuer chemistry. I did too for the longest time. I wished I could talk to people about my interests, and not have them think me a terrorist, a cook, or even, a dork (haha teenagers...)

It took a while to accept, but I finally realized, there's no point in getting upset. They will never un-ban chemicals. And cops who see your lab *will* raid your be-hind, even if the only thing you cook is pasta. That's just the way it is unfortunately. Society is too afraid and unwilling to learn (people are always saying benzne-this, benzene-that...) If I ask for sodium bicarbonate, I'm a terrorist. If I ask for baking soda, I just a girl baking cookies.

Even my mom can't get over artificial flavors - I tell her "Look mom, it's the SAME molecule in pears, why's it matter it's not actually from real pears?" She asks me "Honey, you study chemistry (she thinks chemE is chem), you know chemicals are bad for you" See? I can't even convince my own mom.... How can we convince society? :(

I am no cook, but I am wary of talking to people about my interests (even if it's legal like dismembering batteries). We just have to stockpile and do our stuff behind closed curtains.

Even though I think it unwise to talk about SMDB other people, I am not ashamed to. If we talk about it here in scientific discourse, people who don't understand chemistry won't get it either way. People who are science-minded, well, probably won't mind (if academic journals can talk about this stuff, why can't we? :)) If they do mind, they always have the option to not participate in the thread.

It's not that I think we *need* to have drug discussions, but that I think we don't need to not have them. Since we can't change the immovable, why not let the scientific discussions remain? Who knows, some else might learn as much as I did :)


[Edited on 7/10/2009 by Saerynide]

 Pages:  1  2