Sciencemadness Discussion Board

An economical chain of experiments?

itsafineday - 7-1-2019 at 06:55

I am hoping to learn organic chemistry to enhance my world view.

Is there some sequence of experiments that imparts knowledge of technique while building up a basic amateur stock of chemicals?

Thanks

fusso - 7-1-2019 at 07:17

Quote: Originally posted by itsafineday  
I am hoping to learn organic chemistry to enhance my world view.

Is there some sequence of experiments that imparts knowledge of technique while building up a basic amateur stock of chemicals?

Thanks
How could learning OC enhance world view? Again this defly looks like spoonfeed.

mayko - 7-1-2019 at 07:38

Methyl salicylate by fischer esterification is a good first OC experiment. You get experience sourcing reagents OTC and with reflux & workup. It also has a simple & straightforward mechanism to introduce you to electron-pushing :cool:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Methyl_salicy...

XeonTheMGPony - 7-1-2019 at 09:19

Quote: Originally posted by itsafineday  
I am hoping to learn organic chemistry to enhance my world view.

Is there some sequence of experiments that imparts knowledge of technique while building up a basic amateur stock of chemicals?

Thanks


Distill Ethyl Acetate from nail polish remover, then convert to ethyl Alcohol and Sodium Acetate.

Usefull reagents:

Ethanol
Ethyl Acetate
Sodium Acetate

Next is make Concentrated Acetic Acid, by using drain cleaner acid and the above sodium acetate.

[Edited on 7-1-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]

itsafineday - 7-1-2019 at 09:35

Thanks for the suggestion for distilling ethyl acetate. I don't have any ethyl acetate.

Making sodium acetate with vinegar and baking soda was the first experiment I did. It turned out great. I also make ethanol with a still so I have lots of that and plan on drying some .

Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
Quote: Originally posted by itsafineday  
I am hoping to learn organic chemistry to enhance my world view.

Is there some sequence of experiments that imparts knowledge of technique while building up a basic amateur stock of chemicals?

Thanks


Distill Ethyl Acetate from nail polish remover, then convert to ethyl Alcohol and Sodium Acetate.

Usefull reagents:

Ethanol
Ethyl Acetate
Sodium Acetate

Next is make Concentrated Acetic Acid, by using drain cleaner acid and the above sodium acetate.

[Edited on 7-1-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]

itsafineday - 7-1-2019 at 09:40

Quote: Originally posted by mayko  
Methyl salicylate by fischer esterification is a good first OC experiment. You get experience sourcing reagents OTC and with reflux & workup. It also has a simple & straightforward mechanism to introduce you to electron-pushing :cool:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Methyl_salicy...


Great suggestion. Thanks .

XeonTheMGPony - 7-1-2019 at 10:09

Quote: Originally posted by itsafineday  
Thanks for the suggestion for distilling ethyl acetate. I don't have any ethyl acetate.

Making sodium acetate with vinegar and baking soda was the first experiment I did. It turned out great. I also make ethanol with a still so I have lots of that and plan on drying some .

Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
Quote: Originally posted by itsafineday  
I am hoping to learn organic chemistry to enhance my world view.

Is there some sequence of experiments that imparts knowledge of technique while building up a basic amateur stock of chemicals?

Thanks


Distill Ethyl Acetate from nail polish remover, then convert to ethyl Alcohol and Sodium Acetate.

Usefull reagents:

Ethanol
Ethyl Acetate
Sodium Acetate

Next is make Concentrated Acetic Acid, by using drain cleaner acid and the above sodium acetate.

[Edited on 7-1-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]


You missed the part on where to get ethyl acetate, it is a good organic solvent to have for extractions. The process of converting it to ethanol and sodium acetate is procedural and gives very dry clean Ethanol which is good for water free extractions.

Look up the process as each step feeds the next. The Sodium acetate is fairly pure too but can be further purified by recrystallized from hot methanol.

itsafineday - 7-1-2019 at 11:21

Yeah, I did . Thanks for the info on nail polish remover. I also missed making concentrated acetic acid , thanks. I've been watching Nile Red, Nurd Rage , Dougs Lab on youtube and it's overwhelming how much stuff there is to know and learn and buy, scrounge or make.

CharlieA - 7-1-2019 at 16:36

Buy a used organic chemistry laboratory manual. Do as many of the experiments as you can. This will guide you in techniques and suggest items to get for your laboratory. Get an older laboratory manual that doesn't involve a lot of instrumental methods but instead relies on "wet chemistry." Another good book to aid in putting together a lab and doing fundamental experiments is Robert Bruce Thompson's "Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments. Also, the smaller the scale that you perform experiments in, the smaller the equipment and the smaller amounts of chemicals that you will need.

clearly_not_atara - 7-1-2019 at 18:28

Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
Quote: Originally posted by itsafineday  
I am hoping to learn organic chemistry to enhance my world view.

Is there some sequence of experiments that imparts knowledge of technique while building up a basic amateur stock of chemicals?

Thanks


Distill Ethyl Acetate from nail polish remover, then convert to ethyl Alcohol and Sodium Acetate.

Usefull reagents:

Ethanol
Ethyl Acetate
Sodium Acetate

Next is make Concentrated Acetic Acid, by using drain cleaner acid and the above sodium acetate.


I like this idea. You can go further and make acetamide by rxn of ethyl acetate and aqueous ammonia:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=23491&...

and you can even turn that acetamide into acetonitrile by refluxing over alumina, but the reaction requires high temperatures and a good condenser, so it's not for beginners:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11137&...

itsafineday - 10-1-2019 at 13:59

Quote: Originally posted by CharlieA  
Buy a used organic chemistry laboratory manual. Do as many of the experiments as you can. This will guide you in techniques and suggest items to get for your laboratory. Get an older laboratory manual that doesn't involve a lot of instrumental methods but instead relies on "wet chemistry." Another good book to aid in putting together a lab and doing fundamental experiments is Robert Bruce Thompson's "Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments. Also, the smaller the scale that you perform experiments in, the smaller the equipment and the smaller amounts of chemicals that you will need.


Smaller messes, too :) . I will check out the Thompson book for sure.

itsafineday - 10-1-2019 at 14:08

I stumbled upon M.E.K. Substitute which the klean strip site says is 100% ethyl acetate. When I checked the site it also said the product was discontinued. Is this worth stocking up on at 10 US dollars a quart?

Clearly_not_atara , Despite the low yields , I'm chomping at the bit to make acetonitrile from horse teeth. Thanks for adding to the chain.

chemplayer... - 11-1-2019 at 21:09

Start out with experiments which require basic set-up, e.g. flasks / beakers and stirring, plus filtration / liquid separation techniques. Whilst you're getting the hang of these you can look into reflux / distillation equipment and options.

For example:

1. Challenge yourself to make solid iodine starting from potassium iodide and household ingredients (e.g. hydrogen peroxide / bleach).
2. Use this together with vanillin powder in a buffered solution to prepare 5-iodovanillin.
3. Using basic equipment, a challenge of converting this product into 5-hydoxyvanillin.

Another good and classic sequence (slightly more advanced) would be to start with benzyl alcohol and go all the way to benzilic acid. Or start with peppercorns and see if you can do the extraction of piperine and then work through to piperonal.

Watch our videos if you want the cheat sheets on these!

itsafineday - 12-1-2019 at 06:28

Thanks Chemplayer. These will keep me busy for a while.

Also, to clarify, I have been collecting stuff for the past year. I have received several stinky blue boxes from china and have a complete vacuum distillation setup (except dewar for cold trap). I built a fume hood (but it needs a redesign :( ) and got hotplate stirrer, vacuum pump and mel-temp from auction . At this point I'm trying to map the best and safest use of this stuff . I'm dangerous, though and still figuring out the basics like how to get the gook out of my rbf!

I'm going to pick up some molecular sieves at the post office :D

XeonTheMGPony - 12-1-2019 at 07:09

That MEK Substitute is WELL WORTH IT!!!!!! get it, get it now!

Then distill it!, find out what is a compatible drying agent, then find out method to purify it.

Then, hydrolyze with NaOH to make Sodium acetate and ethyl alcohol. Separate the two, take the now free ethyl alcohol and reflux with some more sodium hydroxide (Warning: This will etch your flask, so use an older one for such reactions)

Distill, you will now have dry and fairly pure ethyl alcohol.

Combine the sodium salt fractions and acidify with Acetic acid until neutral

Dry this, then dry further, then even more (Till it melts and fusses), crush and powder and seal in a jar.

You will have now:

Near anhydrous ethyl alcohol (Reagent and solvent)
Dry sodium acetate (Reagent)
Ethyl Acetate (Organic extraction solvent)

Stage two:

Take dry Sodium acetate and place in a flask
Calculate the amount of H2SO4 needed

Set up for addition and distillation this will give you concentrated acetic acid, and sodium sulfate, work both up.

Sodium sulfate (Drying agent and reagent)
Concentrated Acetic acid (Solvent and reagent)

This is an excellent practice that gives you a slew of basic lab chems, why I recommended it, and it takes you through allot of needed procedures. Distillations, dryings, recapitalization, Acid, Base manipulation of Ph

PirateDocBrown - 22-2-2019 at 21:10

I totally concur about the MEK substitute.

I did a bit of research, and it turns out they only made it for a year or so, to comply with some environmental law that got reversed.

But the hardware store near me had gallons of it, for $20 or so. Damn right I got one.