Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Picric acid sensitivity

ChrisWhewell - 22-12-2009 at 13:44

Around 1989 I went to an estate sale in Willowick Ohio, and in the garage were several boxes with chemical reagent amber bottles. Being a chemist I opened one of the boxes, as I had previously found a large bottle of silver nitrate crystals at a garage sale, which I reduced and sold at profit.

Well, in Willowick, the bottle I pulled out was labeled "picric acid", was about a pound in a clear glass bottle, and guess what ?

It was dry. In that state, my understanding is that its quite sensitive.

I slowly put the bottle down and attempted to inform the others at the sale to get out of the house immediately. Of course they didn't listen to a stranger.

So I left and called the fire chief. He sent the boys over, and they roped off the whole block and spent the afternoon there. No telling what all they found.

Imagine a little wrong percussion on that box - a pound of picrate is basically a pound of TNT.

As far as what you all should do in your home labs, that's up to you. If it were me, I'd avoid anything organic, other than known soap molecules. If you want to mess with other organics, sign up for some independent study credit at a college. You'll have better facilities, good guidance and access to instrumentation.

Besides, there is a ton of work to be done with inorganics. Working with solar cells or thermoelectric coolers or new welding compositions or rendering glass conductive, or trying to find a superconductor or a ton of other things etc. is a lot safer than messing around with anything organic. Back in the early 90's I invented and patented 5,156,721 Process for extraction and concentration of rhodium from catalytic convertors in my basement using salt water, a couple electrodes, HCl, a rectifier and an old catalytic convertor. While searching for a superconductor, I accidentally discovered a mixed oxide that has a variable Curie point around 32 deg. F that a group in China has recently reported on something similar. Point is, like Edison said, Nature teaches you if you keep your eyes open. A room temperature superconductor definitely exists, it just needs to be found. Over a period of over a year, I generated less than a pound of mixed inert oxide waste that all fit in one jar. Since it contained appreciable amount of silver, to dispose of it all I had to do was send it to a refiner.










[Edited on 22-12-2009 by ChrisWhewell]

entropy51 - 22-12-2009 at 13:58

Quote:
If it were me, I'd avoid anything organic, other than known soap molecules.
Interesting point of view, Chris. It's the inorganics that scare the sheet out of me! Welcome to Science Madness!

Some members may not agree that the local community college has better facilities, guidance and instrumentation.

hissingnoise - 22-12-2009 at 15:14

Interesting patent too. . . although I haven't yet read it in depth.
Chris you're the only *real* inventor here that I know of and only the second member to use his full name.


ChrisWhewell - 22-12-2009 at 15:30

I love chemistry. Lately I'm into looking at improving the Graetzel solar cells, as I think the current config sucks insomuch as they require an electrolyte, although they've allegedly passed the accelerated 20-year testing. I got a kit from the Univ. of Wisconsin and made a few. I don't like the tri-iodide in glycol electrolyte though, I think in real life this is the weak link and they haven't yet learned it. What we need is a cheap, quick and reproduceable way to reduce a monolayer of SiO2 present on glass, to elemental silicon. I have a couple of ideas that probably won't work but I'm going to try them anyhow. All I need to see is a tiny shining spec of silicon.

Its pretty inert stuff, requiring super high temperatures for even carbon to reduce it. But I never let my schooling interfere with my education, since a few of my professors never amounted to much.

I have a colloidal silver generator at www.genouveau.com at the only working link in the left column at the top. It looks simple but was the result of a lot of work to get the gap and surface area right. There is one other factor, not described. What I find is that I can use that with two other tricks to lay a conductive layer of silver onto glass, that is very tenacious and retains conductivity after firing at red heat. I don't know where to go from here just yet, maybe some genius will come along and run with it. But I do note some groups reporting increased output of solar cell materials when coated with silver which you can probably find pretty quicly if you do a websearch.

Rosco Bodine - 28-12-2009 at 04:11

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  
Around 1989 I went to an estate sale in Willowick Ohio, and in the garage were several boxes with chemical reagent amber bottles. Being a chemist I opened one of the boxes, as I had previously found a large bottle of silver nitrate crystals at a garage sale, which I reduced and sold at profit.

Well, in Willowick, the bottle I pulled out was labeled "picric acid", was about a pound in a clear glass bottle, and guess what ?

It was dry. In that state, my understanding is that its quite sensitive.


Incorrect, and it is a popular myth assuring neverending job security for people who appear to know what they are doing when they actually don't.
Quote:

I slowly put the bottle down and attempted to inform the others at the sale to get out of the house immediately. Of course they didn't listen to a stranger.

So I left and called the fire chief. He sent the boys over, and they roped off the whole block and spent the afternoon there. No telling what all they found.

Imagine a little wrong percussion on that box - a pound of picrate is basically a pound of TNT.


It is impossible for either picric acid or TNT to just accidentally be initiated by anything less than a profound stimulus like a bullet impact or an intense fire or being shocked by a high order detonation of some other nearby material. Mundane
conditions are not a source of danger for these insensitive materials. It takes a hell of an energetic impact to set 'em off even deliberately.
Quote:

As far as what you all should do in your home labs, that's up to you. If it were me, I'd avoid anything organic, other than known soap molecules. If you want to mess with other organics, sign up for some independent study credit at a college. You'll have better facilities, good guidance and access to instrumentation.

Been there, done that. Have no "home lab", but do have a separate building.
Quote:

Besides, there is a ton of work to be done with inorganics. Working with solar cells or thermoelectric coolers or new welding compositions or rendering glass conductive, or trying to find a superconductor or a ton of other things etc. is a lot safer than messing around with anything organic. Back in the early 90's I invented and patented 5,156,721 Process for extraction and concentration of rhodium from catalytic convertors in my basement using salt water, a couple electrodes, HCl, a rectifier and an old catalytic convertor. While searching for a superconductor, I accidentally discovered a mixed oxide that has a variable Curie point around 32 deg. F that a group in China has recently reported on something similar. Point is, like Edison said, Nature teaches you if you keep your eyes open. A room temperature superconductor definitely exists, it just needs to be found. Over a period of over a year, I generated less than a pound of mixed inert oxide waste that all fit in one jar. Since it contained appreciable amount of silver, to dispose of it all I had to do was send it to a refiner.


You are fortunate that the local nanny state bureaucrats overlooked your alleged operation of an "unpermitted rhodium recycling facility in a location zoned residential" or some similar nonsense as their excuse to "redistribute wealth" from your pockets to theirs and some of the local attorneys.
Of course, I am presuming too much for not knowing if
you filled out all the requisite paperwork and handed over the necessary advances for "paying protection" to the local banditos....er, I mean respected government officials :P



[Edited on 28-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

ChrisWhewell - 29-12-2009 at 11:54

I don't know all the answers, but do know that commercial picric acid is supplied in a container that is filled with water, and presumably for a reason. I don't know about bullets being necessary to set it off but do know that 2kg and 5 kg weight drop test data exists from which one can compare its sensitivity to other materials to obtain some idea of its relative sensitivity. As I recall the centimeter drop of a 2 kg weight isn't much in the case of picric acid but don't forget that free picric acid crystals in a drop test are not the same as a solidified lump of the material in a jar, which I guarantee you contains stress faults within its bulk from when its water had evaporated, as well as regions of stress that may not require much further agitation at all in a tiny region in the bulk to piss it off and send one's head soaring in the direction of the stars. Explosives are an interesting area of chemistry, but outside my area of interests, and I like to discourage amateurs from playing with dangerous materials in the absence of proper supervision. I mainly read of them 20 years ago for the value in knowing what to NOT ever mix together, what materials are not compatible with one another, history of chemistry, the way an industry develops, etc. As far as local public officials are concerned, my opinion is that local governments generally like industry for the tax revenues and jobs it provides. I think that should be a goal of most chemists, to develop new products from which new industry can be based, especially in this economy. I didn't make a fortune from the Rh process but learned a few good business lessons which when coupled with lessons learned in other failures increases the chances of success for my next venture in photovoltaic cells. I'm confident that if I try hard enough and never give up, that eventually I'll get one that's a real winner.

ChrisWhewell - 29-12-2009 at 12:00

By "real winner" I mean one that causes a paradigm shift in an industry. Photovoltaics are a great area since current efficiency levels are only around 10%. This means that if you get it up to 15 - 20%, you can cause a beneficial change in the industry without disrupting already deeply-entrenched participants such as oil companies and their infrastructures and all they jobs they currently provide. The collective global industries comprise a big ship that can only be steered very slowly.

Rosco Bodine - 29-12-2009 at 15:21

Your guarantee about the potential sensitivity of dry picric acid is incorrect and is based upon faulty information which you have read and believed without subjecting the information to verification by actual tests. Test the material yourself and then you will have the same knowledge I have, that picric acid is definitely not a sensitive explosive under any ordinary conditions. Not even a bullet impact from just any caliber would provide sufficient impetus to initiate dry picric acid, it would take something very high velocity to do the trick.

hissingnoise - 29-12-2009 at 15:28

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Not even a bullet impact from just any caliber would provide sufficient impetus to initiate dry picric acid, it would take something very high velocity to do the trick.


Do you feel confident enough in your assertion to put it to the test?

Rosco Bodine - 29-12-2009 at 15:44

I don't need to do those tests which have already been exhaustively done by the military and have been well documented. The data is already published.
And the drop hammer impact tests which get a reaction from concentrated impact of a few crystals sandwiched in the pinch gap of steel on steel, are a reaction test only and that point initiation will absolutely not self accellerate to accomplish a
sustained detonation of a larger mass. In other words you could bury the
bottom of the drop hammer test aparatus in a pit of crystals of the material being tested, and for the insensitive explosives like picric acid, the reaction impulse
from the few crystals going bang between the steels would not have enough
driving power to initiate the larger mass of crystals which are not pinched between the steel plates. The reaction would quench at the edge of the steel
rather than continue as a detonation wave through the mass, which would
require probably thousands of times more impetus across a critical diameter area
of the bulk mass, than is produced by the sample reaction. In short, it would take a detonation wave from a blasting cap or a high velocity bullet to initiate the mass.

ChrisWhewell - 29-12-2009 at 16:26

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Your guarantee about the potential sensitivity of dry picric acid is incorrect and is based upon faulty information which you have read and believed without subjecting the information to verification by actual tests. Test the material yourself and then you will have the same knowledge I have, that picric acid is definitely not a sensitive explosive under any ordinary conditions. Not even a bullet impact from just any caliber would provide sufficient impetus to initiate dry picric acid, it would take something very high velocity to do the trick.


Well, instead of arguing with me, why not just write to those in industry who have made and supplied the material and tell them how foolish they are for shipping it under water for the past 80 years, in view of your superior knowledge ?

All I friggin did was relate a story above, and am now faced with one who comes telling me how wrong I was for calling the fire department 20 years ago when I discovered what I perceived to be an explosive substance in a sensitive state at a garage sale. If I am wrong, there is no damage. If I am right, which I think I am, then I may have saved human life. I think you're wrong for advocating the storage of picric acid in the dry state, since its counter to current and historic industry practice, and nothing you write will change my mind.

I see no benefit in advocating practices that go counter to what is done in industry for decades. It might be good to consider what if someone heeds your advice and has an accident from dry picric acid, and god forbid experiences a loss of some sort or other, then what ? When I was a kid we poured gasoline into a cup and a neighborhood guy literally put his cigarette out in it, with no flames occuring. Haha he laughed. I'd never take that to mean that its safe to smoke around gasoline. Point is, whatever conditions you've experienced don't encompass all and picric acid is stored wet for a good reason that you obviously have yet to learn. Good luck on that.



[Edited on 30-12-2009 by ChrisWhewell]

hissingnoise - 29-12-2009 at 17:00

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
The data is already published.

Are they?
can you show us where?

entropy51 - 29-12-2009 at 18:28

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  
Well, instead of arguing with me, why not just write to those in industry who have made and supplied the material and tell them how foolish they are for shipping it under water for the past 80 years, in view of your superior knowledge ?
80 years?? Absolutely not! It was still shipped dry as a bone in the 1960's and 1970's. It was about 1980 that I heard of this new-fangled hazard and added some water to several bottles that I had on the shelf.

As for superior knowledge, there does happen to be a fair amount embodied in the members of this forum, especially the ones who've been members for longer than a week or two.:P

Rosco Bodine - 29-12-2009 at 18:43

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  
Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Your guarantee about the potential sensitivity of dry picric acid is incorrect and is based upon faulty information which you have read and believed without subjecting the information to verification by actual tests. Test the material yourself and then you will have the same knowledge I have, that picric acid is definitely not a sensitive explosive under any ordinary conditions. Not even a bullet impact from just any caliber would provide sufficient impetus to initiate dry picric acid, it would take something very high velocity to do the trick.


Well, instead of arguing with me, why not just write to those in industry who have made and supplied the material and tell them how foolish they are for shipping it under water for the past 80 years, in view of your superior knowledge ?


You seem to be the one who wishes to argue a point that isn't a point because it has no factual basis. Flammability and dusting are reduced by keeping some materials damp,
and not "under water", which is another incorrect piece of information you are sharing.
Quote:

All I friggin did was relate a story above, and am now faced with one who comes telling me how wrong I was for calling the fire department 20 years ago when I discovered what I perceived to be an explosive substance in a sensitive state at a garage sale. If I am wrong, there is no damage. If I am right, which I think I am, then I may have saved human life. I think you're wrong for advocating the storage of picric acid in the dry state, since its counter to current and historic industry practice, and nothing you write will change my mind.


My hero ! You saved the day. Frankly I care more about what I know than your opinion which is based on ignorance rather than having factual basis. You won't accept good information, so believe whatever you like. Nothing you say after advocating some bright line distinction about he safety of inorganic chemistry versus organic chemistry has much credulity anyway. You can practice your art any way you please but don't come here to school me about things I know a hell of lot more than you.
Quote:

I see no benefit in advocating practices that go counter to what is done in industry for decades. It might be good to consider what if someone heeds your advice and has an accident from dry picric acid, and god forbid experiences a loss of some sort or other, then what ?


The difference between me and you is that about picric acid I know what I am talking about while you do not, and that is no minor difference. So please stop trying to be an expert
about something which you are so obviously ignorant.
Quote:

When I was a kid we poured gasoline into a cup and a neighborhood guy literally put his cigarette out in it, with no flames occuring. Haha he laughed. I'd never take that to mean that its safe to smoke around gasoline. Point is, whatever conditions you've experienced don't encompass all and picric acid is stored wet for a good reason that you obviously have yet to learn. Good luck on that.

Your point here is a fire safety and ease of ignitability nonsequitur, which has nothing to do with detonability of picric acid in a single jar sized quantity where it would not have sufficient mass to ever burn to a cooking off scenario.
Even for that concern being unrealistic in a jar sized amount, it is a real concern for magazine or bulk storage where dusting concerns are also alleviated by damp storage.
The product in bulk is stored damp and is likely cased in
many bottles per box where then the protocol of damp storage may have some validity. It is easier to bottle the material in the same form as the bulk storage anyway.
But for a single bottle on a storage shelf, the protocol
is not the same. A bottle of dry picric acid is not hazardous
to any extent which requires intervention to abate the hazard. You don't believe that because you haven't had the experience handling the material or studying its energetic properties to understand that what I have stated has factual basis.

ChrisWhewell - 29-12-2009 at 19:01

How did you come to know just exactly what my experiences and knowledge are ?

If you're comfortable with twisting off an encrusted frozen tight lid on an old bottle of dry phenolic trinitro material, then you're a brave man.


[Edited on 30-12-2009 by ChrisWhewell]

entropy51 - 29-12-2009 at 19:09

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  

If you're comfortable with twisting off an encrusted frozen tight lid on an old bottle of dry phenolic trinitro material, then you're a brave man.


Is there a literature reference to that having disemboweled someone?

I did it many times prior to hearing that I should fear for my life.

ChrisWhewell - 29-12-2009 at 19:16

Then that makes you a brave man too.

Fleaker - 29-12-2009 at 19:25

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  

If you're comfortable with twisting off an encrusted frozen tight lid on an old bottle of dry phenolic trinitro material, then you're a brave man.


Is there a literature reference to that having disemboweled someone?

I did it many times prior to hearing that I should fear for my life.



I have also untwisted a jar of picric acid which had the material on the threads, in a university lab no less! Then again, my instructor did advocate washing hands with benzene :-)

I was always told that chief danger of picric acid was in its salts formed with various metals. The second danger to it was its propensity to dye your clothes!

Rosco Bodine - 29-12-2009 at 19:29

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  
How did you come to know just exactly what my experiences and knowledge are ?

It was my reasonable conclusion that you lack experience with the material because from your advice concerning the material it was clear enough you didn't know much about the subject matter.
Quote:

If you're comfortable with twisting off an encrusted frozen tight lid on an old bottle of dry phenolic trinitro material, then you're a brave man.


Okay, that's me then , a brave man. Alternatively, and just maybe... I know a fair amount about the subject matter and you can verify from authoritative literature as well as by experiment that what I have been trying to tell you is correct.

entropy51 - 29-12-2009 at 19:30

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  
Then that makes you a brave man too.
Well things that are extremely dangerous now were a lot safer before the advent of the Institutional Health & Safety Officer.

ChrisWhewell - 29-12-2009 at 19:44

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  

If you're comfortable with twisting off an encrusted frozen tight lid on an old bottle of dry phenolic trinitro material, then you're a brave man.


Is there a literature reference to that having disemboweled someone?

I did it many times prior to hearing that I should fear for my life.


People not knowledgeable with respect to the inherent properties and hazards of these materials would do well to avoid them. I suspect that in most states making and storing picric acid is probably a criminal offense, and for good reason since even those believing themselves knowledgeable, aren't always. Here's three references relating to the relative instabilities of the dry vs. wet from the days long before what you refer to as "the advent of the Institutional Health & Safety Officer" in your smartypants remark

Kast, in Z. ges. Scheiss- u. Sprengstoff 6, 7, 31, 67 (1911)
Will, ibid., I, 209 (1905)
Silberrad and Phillips, J. Chem. Soc. 93, 474 (1908)



[Edited on 30-12-2009 by ChrisWhewell]

Rosco Bodine - 29-12-2009 at 20:06

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  
Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell  

If you're comfortable with twisting off an encrusted frozen tight lid on an old bottle of dry phenolic trinitro material, then you're a brave man.


Is there a literature reference to that having disemboweled someone?

I did it many times prior to hearing that I should fear for my life.


People not knowledgeable with respect to the inherent properties and hazards of these materials would do well to avoid them. I think that in most states making and storing picric acid is probably a criminal offense, and for good reason since even those believing themselves knowledgeable, aren't always. Here's the reference you requested, in fact, three

Kast, in Z. ges. Scheiss- u. Sprengstoff 6, 7, 31, 67 (1911)
Will, ibid., I, 209 (1905)
Silberrad and Phillips, J. Chem. Soc. 93, 474 (1908)



[Edited on 30-12-2009 by ChrisWhewell]


Urbanski and PATR are going to be more authoritative, along with possibly Mem Poudres ......but better than any are the direct observations from experiments. There are occasionally disputes which can arise with literature references where described properties and processes do not square with what is found by direct experiment or described
otherwise more accurately in other literature.

As for your interpretation of the law concerning energetic materials themselves, that is probably incorrect also, as
most regulations concern the assembly of components into destructive devices which are used unlawfully as the point at which laws are broken. I'm sure from your sentiments and
the true ignorance on which they are based, that you are no friend of science, except that which is regulated to death
in deference to alleviating your own unfounded safety concerns which actually are a political agenda now recognized for precisely what it is.

Chris is a NARC .

[Edited on 30-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

ChrisWhewell - 29-12-2009 at 20:24

I suspected that I cited a reference some of the argumentative types would come in and attack it, so I chose to cite three. If you don't like J Chem Soc. , Rosco Bodine or whatever your name is, that's fine. If you want to call me names like NARC or whatever and it makes you feel good, then have at it, for name calling changes nothing, nor contributes anything, just like the other two name callers I experienced on this board in the past week. There's no way in he77 you could have even looked at those references in such short time and its clear your agenda is neither geared towards knowledge sharing or learning, but rather is insipid and habitual attacks, which makes you no friend of science, in my book.

If you look at my message above, I said "I suspect....." and that is all I wrote. If possessing picric acid (a high explosive) by know-nots in the general public isn't unlawful, then maybe it should be made so. I've got about a dozen issued patents under my belt in several areas of chemistry, some of which generate money. What have you ever published ? I came here to possibly share some of my knowledge and experience with inventing and commercializing, as I also have an MS from www.ic2.org

But since I've only met attacks, I won't be returning to this website. Good evening.



ChrisWhewell - 29-12-2009 at 20:26

To the moderators - please delete my account.

Thanks,

Chris

Rosco Bodine - 29-12-2009 at 20:48

Cannisters of smokeless powder are higher explosive and far more sensitive
and dangerous than picric acid. They are not needed nor required to be stored wet either, although bulk storage quantities of raw unstabilized nitrocellulose very well should be. You could cite three hundred references and it wouldn't matter. Picric acid and TNT alike have been used as a filler in artillery shells, mortars, grenades and other ordnance. Do you have the first clue what sort of shocks are required to be endured by energetic materials suitable for military use
to allow for their not just "going off accidentally" from any rough handling ?
Bottom line is that these materials are extremely insensitive to unintended detonation and are actually pretty difficult to cause deliberately to detonate.
These materials are not like nitroglycerin or worse sensitive materials, so the
alarm over the sensitivity of dry picric acid is simply bullshit and it will still be bullshit whether you cancel your account and take your leave or not.

Maybe go do some transmutation experiments and patent that. A "NARC" is
a term that goes back to the sixties, referencing "undercover agents" who
pretend to be of like mind with various groups of persons thought to be
"subversive" in order to infiltrate and "gather evidence" for criminal prosecutions
which those "moles" bring about. Don't expect a warm reception at any
amateur science forum where you come to talk about how experimentation by
amateurs should be limited to only what you think is safe or legitimate,
because no matter what are your credentials or accomplishments, you will be told to get lost and go find yourself a nice stuffy professional forum where all of
you can review your great accomplishments and exchange attaboys for how smart you think you are.

IrC - 29-12-2009 at 23:48

I think you are jumping all over Chris in an unjustified way Roscoe. First I highly doubt a narc will have patents to their credit and your name calling is unfair. The man was possibly a good source of information to members here and I believe he was concerned for the safety of others, a reasonable sense of caution. Picric acid is about twice as sensitive as TNT. Its sensitivity can be compared to that of hexogen. This is when pure and dry.

Picric acid can easily form metal picrate salts that are even more sensitive and hazardous than the acid itself and correct me if I am wrong but I thought he said it was in a jar. Most jars have metal lids. Crushing the dry crystals usually sets it off and this will happen if they are in the threads when the lid is unscrewed. Compounding this is the unknown of the metal composition of the lid and whether or not metal picrates have been formed. Chris likely thought about this the day he saw the jar.

Also he possibly knew it sublimes slowly (where yes the vapor could leak from threads and react with metals nearby). Given it's age how much dangerous metal picrates could have formed on objects around it? If I saw an old jar like that I sure as heck would not want to pick it up and I would be concerned about whoever ended up buying it oblivious to the hazzard. Usually it was stored under water in glass with a glass stopper for safety but even then dry crystals could form which could crush and set the whole thing off when the stopper was twisted.

Given the age and unknowns involved I for one do not think he was unjustified in his fears. You cannot possibly equate your knowledge of this chemical under optimal conditions with the same safety concern for something as old and improperly stored as the jar he was talking about.

All that aside I will not debate these issues it is pointless. The man was telling a story and it should have been taken as such, not used as a childish point of attack. In short whether you were right or he was, you owe the man an apology. He was a good member, an asset here who hopefully will calm down and stay.

Edit to add PDF:




[Edited on 12-30-2009 by IrC]

Attachment: alert_picric_acid.pdf (75kB)
This file has been downloaded 768 times

The_Davster - 29-12-2009 at 23:50

I have seen industry reports stating incredulous things such as silver nitrate and ammonia forms silver fulminate (not silver nitride as is actually the case). Just because industry states it does not mean it is correct. Nor does a JACS paper saying the same, errors are expected to occur at some point in every publication, and when the editor does not know better things go unchecked.

Picric acid is one of those cases, the rumors about high sensitivity of dry picric acid come from accidents when it was stored in containers with metal caps, allowing picrate salts to form. The pure acid is only slightly more sensitive than TNT.

On a lab scale, with proper precautions(avoiding metals) picric acid is another reagent. On industrial scales there may be merit to the addition of water, as large sizes lead to behavior (such as what could happen in a fire) that is not what would be expected on lab-size quantities.

In the past I have stored picric and styphnic acids, dry, in screw top vials. I guess I am just lucky to be alive ;) :P.


Accounts do not get deleted. This tangent has been split into a thread of its own.




[Edited on 30-12-09 by The_Davster]

Rosco Bodine - 30-12-2009 at 00:51

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
I think you are jumping all over Chris in an unjustified way Roscoe. First I highly doubt a narc will have patents to their credit and your name calling is unfair. The man was possibly a good source of information to members here and I believe he was concerned for the safety of others, a reasonable sense of caution. Picric acid is about twice as sensitive as TNT. Its sensitivity can be compared to that of hexogen. This is when pure and dry.

Have you been reading the same posts as I have been reading? What we just saw is a demonstration of academic snobbery pulling a wagonload of attitude and ignorance that won't hear any correction on a technical point that really is pretty basic stuff....but he is the expert, so don't dare any of his imagined apprentices here dare say a word to correct the "professor" on bullshit. Exhibit A: Never and I mean never have I seen picric acid in a jar having a metal lid, and even if it were to be the anomaly where a metal lid was there, not one of the known metallic picrates would form in sufficient quantity even if the entire lid was converted to a metallic picrate, to result in a sufficient quantity of picrate capable of causing the detonation of the mass of remaining PA, it simply isn't going to happen not yesterday, not today, and not tomorrow. The third reference the fellow cited was posted here in this forum nearly four years ago by Axt and has not one thing to do with moisture related detonability sensitivity or concerns. This "roping off a city block" stuff
is high drama for the uninformed and gives more bad press to chemists, and the irony here is you have someone with credentials who should know better contributing to the myth, and now by arguing the point making the matter worse. He is a lawyer as well as a chemist and I recognize the political regulatory language I heard for what it was and I owe no apology. If it walks like a narc and quacks like a narc, it's a narc. This isn't the Watch Mr. Wizard show and we are not little kiddie apprentices who should not talk back.
Quote:

Picric acid can easily form metal picrate salts that are even more sensitive and hazardous than the acid itself and correct me if I am wrong but I thought he said it was in a jar. Most jars have metal lids. Crushing the dry crystals usually sets it off and this will happen if they are in the threads when the lid is unscrewed. Compounding this is the unknown of the metal composition of the lid and whether or not metal picrates have been formed. Chris likely thought about this the day he saw the jar.

Also he possibly knew it sublimes slowly (where yes the vapor could leak from threads and react with metals nearby). Given it's age how much dangerous metal picrates could have formed on objects around it? If I saw an old jar like that I sure as heck would not want to pick it up and I would be concerned about whoever ended up buying it oblivious to the hazzard. Usually it was stored under water in glass with a glass stopper for safety but even then dry crystals could form which could crush and set the whole thing off when the stopper was twisted.
You are buying into the myth that I can't buy because I know it is pure garbage.
Quote:

Given the age and unknowns involved I for one do not think he was unjustified in his fears.
No you want to give him a mulligan and indulge this hysterical crap as if it had
a rational basis.
Quote:

You cannot possibly equate your knowledge of this chemical under optimal conditions with the same safety concern for something as old and improperly stored as the jar he was talking about.
We are talking about a jar of picric acid, not a case of twenty year old dynamite that is sweating
liguid nitroglycerin.
Quote:

All that aside I will not debate these issues it is pointless. The man was telling a story and it should have been taken as such, not used as a childish point of attack. In short whether you were right or he was, you owe the man an apology. He was a good member, an asset here who hopefully will calm down and stay.

If I owed an apology I would gladly offer it. The intelligence
of several members here and their direct knowledge is a lot higher than is the presumption of the person who was arguing in error and who then became more assertive and insulting. I have seen this kind of controversy before so I will
also state for you that the exact same attitude is often encountered among professionals who take offense at anyone suggesting that they don't know their business as well as they think, and they will react by asserting even more a wrong idea and argue it forever. Just go back and read and you will see that kind of argument being ventured to replace legitimate debate was not my strategy.
I could waste the time digging out all the real world testing data to substantiate what I have said, if I had the time to waste, and it won't change the myth that was gotten from a text or inferred from misunderstood regulations, but never gotten from direct experience or experiment. But don't believe me of course, according to rumor now I only know what I think I know and should not trust my lying eyes.

With regards to that OHS Alert! material it is pure propaganda and there is a political motive because
the state is sensitive about anything which can potentially
be weaponized. Now why would the state be concerned
about anything that could be weaponized if the state was
dealing truthfully and ethically with its citizens ? That is
the question which is watermarked indelibly on every page of such conspicuous propaganda.

DISINFORMATION is alive and well but it is only any influence on people who are not otherwise better informed.

The following YouTube video is 100% PROPAGANDA
which is linked in the pdf posted by IrC above. To me
this video is quite hysterically hilariously funny and also
pathetic in terms of the intellect represented by those
sheeple who actually participated and bought this load
of complete bullshit . Bullshit disinformation propaganda
is precisely what this video and that pdf are, one big LIE.
A chemistry degree from that place is my toilet paper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK6Eoassjg


[Edited on 30-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

IrC - 30-12-2009 at 02:32

Ironically you hold as a degree from a university your credentials, not realizing everything I posted I pulled from various universities. So I can only surmise all universities are wrong other than the one you went to whichever one that was. What difference is all knowledge if you still have the attitude towards others which you display. Chris said it well, he was merely telling a story. Common sense dictates a wary approach to an old bottle containing a pound of explosive and Chris was rightly concerned about said explosive being for sale to the unwary general public. All he did was tell people about it and the authorities took all the precautions not Chris. If you are going to impress anyone I suggest you do so with maturity. I have nothing more to say on this as no one here approves of this hijacking and merely by replying again I would only be aiding the mindless conflict. An ounce of common sense is worth more to me than a pound of old explosives.



[Edited on 12-30-2009 by IrC]

Rosco Bodine - 30-12-2009 at 02:53

Exhibit B: There is a huge difference between what a person thinks as a result of reading text and what a person knows from direct experience. What I am saying about picric acid I know from direct experiments, dozens of experiments done over several decades of time generating dozens of pages of data and accumulating a few hundred pages of files, not a bunch of guessing or parroting whatever I read and chose to prioritize because of how some author colored things.

There is nothing mindless at all about my exposing the disinformation and propaganda which absolutely is afoot here, and if you are buying into it,
then that is your problem and there is assuredly a lot more state authored
crap which you are deceived by as easily and completely. Hell it is simple
enough of a matter to put to the test so then why keep talking about it
as if it was a matter for debate ......which is a lie in itself, because this
matter is already settled business for anyone who has done any experimentation
to learn for themselves just what the truth is. That is the place from which
I am speaking having the benefit of direct firsthand knowledge. Others may wish to make it an emotional issue or something personal, but it is only science to me,
and no I'm sure it is not politically corrected science but rather the science which
tells the truth rather than seeks to deceive. Experiment will easily show who
is being scientific versus who is being political and lying for political motive.
I have no worries being discredited while there are plenty of others who should worry about explaining themselves.

This entire discussion seems totally bizarre ....it's like some evil spell has been cast over the forum and folks are mesmerized into some kind of "eat shit up with a smile" trance ....like they are hypnotized . Hoping everybody is just a bit dull from all the rich food over the holidays and that
things gradually come back in focus. Otherwise we shall
have to send for an exorcist .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8utgCo86lpo&fmt=18 There Is A Mountain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92HjH1GG3ro&fmt=18 Season Of The Witch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCCjv2OiTxE&fmt=18 Mellow Yellow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyV0SKTl_JM&fmt=18 Hurdy Gurdy Man

[Edited on 30-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

S.C. Wack - 30-12-2009 at 04:04

The writer in the 7th ed. of Bretherick's is also against overconcern, but also makes the very same points that IrC does about metal picrates, and dry acid with glass stoppers. We can choose Rosco's word over that of authors with an interest and with access in some way to accident reports, or not.

hissingnoise - 30-12-2009 at 04:44

Is that guy for real---a little bit of rough-and-tumble and he's threatening to pick up his marbles and run straight home?
Calling him a narc, though, was a bit extreme.
And I think you're probably exaggerating the insensitivity of TNP somewhat, but since I've never handled the material, I'm just voicing a hunch!



[Edited on 30-12-2009 by hissingnoise]

entropy51 - 30-12-2009 at 08:15

I suspect the real truth is somewhere in between. I'm guessing that dry picric could be detonated accidentally, but I think this must be unusual or else we would hear more about it. Metal picrates are another story, but I agree with Rosco that I have never seen it bottled with a metal cap.

I do know that 40 years ago I worked in an analytical lab where picric was just another reagent on the shelf. It was shipped dry, we stored it dry, and we weighed it out with metal spatulas. The waste solutions went down a sink that had a Pb drain pipe.:o We had no idea that there could be any problem with it. And there never was. This was common practice in those days, trust me.

Would I store dry picric acid nowadays? Absolutely not.

I do find it troubling that Mr. Whewell joined an amateur forum and immediately starts telling us that organic chemistry is too dangerous for us kids and that ordinary folk should be locked up for making picric acid. What's wrong with this picture?

entropy51 - 30-12-2009 at 08:50

Quote:
The man was possibly a good source of information to members here...


If you read this thread
closely, you may not be so sure.

Rosco Bodine - 30-12-2009 at 10:20

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
The writer in the 7th ed. of Bretherick's is also against overconcern, but also makes the very same points that IrC does about metal picrates, and dry acid with glass stoppers. We can choose Rosco's word over that of authors with an interest and with access in some way to accident reports, or not.


Nothing is completely idiot proof because newer and bigger idiots are raising the heights of stupidity's limit every day, and just when you believe nothing could top the last Darwin Award, a new and improved bigger stupidity comes along to show you what happens after you were thinking already about a previous example of stupidity, if that doesn't beat all.

But picric acid is about as close to idiot proof as an energetic material can be.

There are no "anomalously sensitive" crystal forms of picric acid. There are no magical or mysterious nuggets of internally stressed jar residents or stopper clingers which lurk waiting to claim an unsuspecting victim .....it is all of it bullshit with a capital B .

Try to keep a sense of humor, it is a good survival tool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l38blGqVeHc dumb blonde humor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e89HBOdrNyc&feature=relat... dread humor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40DykbPa4Lc&NR=1 enlightenment humor

[Edited on 30-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

dann2 - 30-12-2009 at 11:26

Hello,

Me thinks ChrisWhewell was a bit of a flash-in-the-pan...........................................................................without the flash :P

Anyhow, taking issue with Rosco Bodine regarding Blond jokes, I think it is an ABSOLUTE DISGRACE.

Dann2


Three ladies escaped from prison, a Burnett, a Red Head and a Blond.
They were running helter skelter accross ditches, hedges, fields, swamps with some prison officers in persuit.
They came upon a shed with some sacks in it and the burnette suggested that they each climb into a sack.
So they did.
The prison officers came along and give the first sack a kick and the Burnett let a great big noise like a cat getting kicked.
Prison officer says, move on, there's a cat in that sack.
Kicked the next sack and the Red Head let a howl like a kicked dog.
Move on shouts the prison officer, there's a dog in that sack.
The prison officer kicked the remaining sack and the Blond shouts.......SPUDS.

chemoleo - 30-12-2009 at 11:26

I wonder though why this policy is in place - they also deliver dinnitrophenylhydrazine wet as a common lab reagent , and of course ammonium dichromate (which has an explosive sign :o) and ammonium nitrate, and for the first never heard schools being evacuated when they were found dry.
In other words, the H&S officers dont go mental on just any explosive lab chemical (yet). Therefore, there must have been incidents with wet to dry PA in schools/labs etc.

Rosco Bodine - 30-12-2009 at 11:47

What more than likely has happened is there have been disastrous incidents involving entirely different materials or processes and there was a kneejerk response based on a misidentification of the cause in some after incident report and finding which was written by someone who didn't know what they were doing, but who was tasked with the job of writing a report and suggesting some sort of regulatory intervention to prevent a reoccurrence of such an incident.....
so they generated a bullshit report, and then a bunch of ignorant bureaucrats ran with it from there, as the regulators who will save the day and make us all safer.
The minor technicality is that the whole thing is nonsense.

entropy51 - 30-12-2009 at 12:23

Mistaken Identity ?
Quote:
What more than likely has happened is there have been disastrous incidents involving entirely different materials or processes and there was a kneejerk response based on a misidentification of the cause in some after incident report and finding which was written by someone who didn't know what they were doing


Interesting that you should say that, Rosco. I think I've found a perfect example. In googling for picric explosions I found this case report of an industrial explosion attributed to picric. Reading this report, I don't think it was due to picric at all. Sounds like pretty wild speculation to me, although they say picric was identified in the residue. OK, I'll bite, but I still think it due to something else.

Rosco Bodine - 30-12-2009 at 12:54

There is certainly a matter of scale that causes different concerns for industrial quantities and for munition magazines, where there are legitimate issues that may be real for huge quantities of a material, but are concerns no longer applicable for physical chemistry reasons when the quantity is scaled down
below a certain threshold amount. The thermodynamics are different for
defining what is risk in storing tons of a material, so that the same concerns
do not necessarily withstand scaling down to apply equally well to a pound of the same material in a jar. A geometric reduction of risk applies to the reduced quantity in storage for many hazardous materials, to a point that for many things
the concerns which may be very real on an industrial scale simply do not apply to a smaller increment of the same material , and that is most definitely the case here. So the argument about what is good for industry is also applicable in
a different setting is simply a false argument. Many storage regulations and handling advisories are quite different depending upon the quantity of a
hazardous material which is in consideration. There is not a direct correspondence and translation from the industrial scale concerns to the
smaller laboratory scale concerns, where only some or none of the same
hazards may directly parallel, it really depends on the particular material involved.
But generally there is an increased hazard for increased amounts and a reduced hazard for smaller amounts and the relationship is geometric in the variation.

Anyway it has been declared by me before that picric acid is energetic chemistry 101, and the controversy which has arisen here is a testament to those who aren't past the fundamentals concerning good old picric acid. No one has to simply trust what I have said about picric acid and just take my word for it, but can easily enough put the material to experimental tests and see for themselves what are the
properties and what are not. I challenge anyone to even deliberately initiate picric acid using a metallic picrate for its initiation in an environment different from that of a reenforced detonator which supplies strong confinement,
try it a few times and see if you can even get a significant
partial detonation of the picric acid, much less a complete detonation. Do your own tests to see just how much provocation it requires to initiate picric acid, and get back to me. I have seen picric acid subjected to the impulse not just of initiating explosives, but subjected to the impulse of high order detonation of boosters having sufficient energy to
entirely vaporize the picric acid to a yellow smoke cloud like a smoke dye and the picric acid did not detonate even from
that kind of insult and provocation, simply because it was
not held strongly confined enough to couple the detonation wave but quenched instead, even at temperature high enough that the picric acid was vaporized in combination
with being subjected to a shock which one might expect would assuredly cause a sympathetic detonation ....yet did not result. I know that picric acid is damn insensitive and it requires a correctly engineered assembly and special conditions that are very specific in order to accomplish even its deliberate detonation. Those conditions are not provided by scenarios involving a dropped bottle or a removed bottle closure, it simply never happened and never will.

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

IrC - 30-12-2009 at 19:00

Mann_F_G___Saunders_B_C-Practical_Organic_Chemistry_Longoman-4thEd-1960_

This is the source I get some of my opinion from and without regret I trust this source more than anyone here. Just under 600 pages, read pg 189. Too large to upload ( 28.8 mb) but can be acquired on the following link.

http://rapidshare.com/files/58267747/Mann_F_G___Saunders_B_C...

I have read some of the threads including the one entropy51 mentioned and yes I am not picking the best person to defend but I believe true scientists should maintain a certain decorum and when I see rants and unjustified name calling going on which remind me of someone's flashbacks to the third grade either I play the adult and say something or ignore it and go somewhere better. The problem with the latter is on the internet better places are rare enough that when you find interesting sources of good science some effort at improving things you do not like are worthwhile.

Rosco Bodine - 30-12-2009 at 20:36

There have been no rants nor unjustified name calling. Should anyone trust what is read in a text over what their own observations and experiments and tests reveal in the way of confirmation of what is published, knowing that verification is really the only way of confirming whether or not a text is authoritative ? By experiments a person may learn more than what is published and they may even be able to improve upon what is published or otherwise go beyond what is published. So there is no reason to enshrine any particular text as being the last word, until the peer review includes yourself as a participant. It doesn't get any more adult. As they say the proof is in the pudding.

I read page 189 and there is nothing there but a general common sense protocol about apothecary jars not being used to store friction sensitive materials, which makes sense in regards to picric acid to the extent of sparing the possible loss of glassware due to a cracked ground joint caused by the snap of any crystals which could react there, but that would not lead to a mass detonation of an entire contents of picric acid, and would only result in a broken neck for the jar or an entirely broken jar and a spill if the crack continued past the ground joint. If the jar was filled with a primary explosive, things could be very much different and the entire contents could go off. There is nothing I am reading there which is really in dispute.

It was not my intention to make Mr. Whewell feel unwelcome here. It very definitely was my purpose not to take any shit from him. I am very sensitive about liberty and rights and
I am also sensitive about others who presume the orbit they occupy intellectually presents an opportunity to talk down to me, and that I should simply "trust" the better judgement of
others who are in actuality not in a higher orbit with regard to the matter in discussion. My answer there is No and no
is just as good an answer as is yes, and either one may be appropriate to the circumstances. This was one of those.

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

IrC - 31-12-2009 at 00:22

What loses me is the conflicting information. I have looked at a few dozen books and a few hundred web pages and so far do not find what I want. This is a compilation of various tests which clearly spell out the hazards and circumstances under which the tests were performed. I do not see mention of glassware injury I see the word explosion. To what extent? If I read your posts correctly you are saying (using 2kg and 39 cm which I have found so far): a layer is on a plate. You drop a 2 kg hammer on the plate. Only the material in the impact zone detonates leaving the surrounding material unexploded? Where is a comprehensive set of test data from an accredited source to be found. While you sound very sure of yourself I for one would not trust my safety to your opinion, no offense intended, what I want to read is carefully compiled data in say some laboratory somewhere. As I said they say risk of explosion, not how big. Nowhere do I read they are concerned for loss of a little glassware, they talk like the consequences are serious. So this is what I seek, a thorough study well done and very comprehensive. I am sure it must exist outside of casual relation of say your personal experience.

Rosco Bodine - 31-12-2009 at 02:50

I am not just sure of myself, I am certain of myself on this matter. There wouldn't be explosions of picric acid under these mythical dangerous jar scenarios which have been ventured as alarmist propaganda upon the inexperienced or uninformed or misinformed. And yes you have it right about the drop hammer test and typically there won't even be all of the sample fully detonated even between the plates, it will just be a pretty good snap or slight bang from the few or single crystal which does react and the remainder will be simply pulverized to dust and scattered or pancaked to a sliver left sticking to the plates. It is entirely different for a primary explosive or a near primary explosive. But for a difficult to initiate secondary explosive like picric acid the effect is very feeble to a hammer test. And friction absent some impact is unlikely to do anything except grind the material to a dust.

Here is the Federoff article from PATR

BTW I have no problem with righteous skepticism, but I should have some credibility for all the good references I have provided over the years and for providing verifiable information going beyond the references as well. It was me who uploaded the completed PATR and I have gone beyond the information there also. I am not about misinformation and I am not about information control either, even though I haven't and won't share everything I know for good security reasons. For those of you who are so enamored of narcs that you want to play the devils advocate, just be aware that sometimes there may be more truth in that cliche than you may imagine. I call 'em like I see 'em and I have a long track record of being right, not 100% perfect no, but way
better than 99.

Attachment: Federoff Vol. 8 PATR picric acid .pdf (962kB)
This file has been downloaded 1437 times

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

grndpndr - 31-12-2009 at 05:11

Does anyone find this to be a strange attitude coming from the same man who just warned us of the dangers of PA? Besides having uncomfortable political overtones seemingly posted by a phishing militia type or perhaps gov type, you be the judge.

From the thread a "Unique Synthesis of Ammonium Nitrate" by Doug the Mapper

qoute by Chris Whewel ;""Interesting theory.Not long ago every farm town had a silo of NH4NO3 in town stocked w/tons.If I were part of a movement which wanted to disarm
the populations of the west,then which threats would be on top of that movements list to remove from the populace?My guess is that removing nitrate silos would be on top of the list since a disarmed populace is unable to resist.
I think your stated position regarding people blowing thier fingers off or demolishing
buildings as an excuse to remove fertilizer silos is untenable,given the long safe history
on nitrate fertilizer usage over several decades and the wrongful use of such materials
is unsupported by the facts of history.It was a silent grab of hidden defenses."unqoute. To young to recall OK city?Certainly texas city long before most of our memorys.Obviously NOT a history afficianado in fact the 2 posts are so dissimilar as to make one wonder if the one person wrote both.I have no comment/opinion regarding Mr Whewell's post.

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by grndpndr]

Rosco Bodine - 31-12-2009 at 05:27

I have a genuine contempt for prohibitionists and regulators and especially for property taxation and licensing which reduces what are and should be absolute rights to nothing more than purchased permissions granted from de facto overlords who have only legitimate authority to be public servants. I am very old school concerning personal liberty and its defense. The only legitimate authority which a government has is what it receives by the consent of the governed. For too long and in too many ways it is a global plague that governments forget that the people are their master and not the other way around. It is those in error
who benefit from correction, not those who had it right all along.

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

dann2 - 31-12-2009 at 05:37

Hello,
Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
What.............[] While you sound very sure of yourself I for one would not trust my safety to your opinion, no offense intended, what I want to read is carefully compiled data in say some laboratory somewhere. ....................[]


Me neither!! :D

You come accross a bottle of Picric acid:
What is it's history? Perhaps careless workers have added substances back into the bottle likely to cause problems. What is its age, storage conditions, purity the day it was made etc.

Dynamite is perfectly safe stuff. Tons and tons of the stuff have been used in all sorts of circumstances without any problems. So long as it is used properly it is fine. If it were used as a lab reagent (I know its a concoction of different materials) there would need to be a strict regime as to when to throw out the stuff, how to store it, what not to mix/contaminat it with etc etc etc.
If you came accross an old bottle of ('non-weeping') dynamite of unknown age, storage conditions contamination, first day quality etc etc etc, only a great big fool would argue that the stuff posed no danger and could not possible harm anyone unless handled with the utmost disrespect.
It may be one month old, it may be forty years old. You don't know.
Same goes for the 'bottle of Picric acid for sale at the garage sale'.
If it comes with a detailed history of its existance (it won't of course) then read that history and be informed and be careful.
The manner in which old unknown bottles of Picric acid are being protrayed in this thread is that it would be perfectly safe to take the 'old bottle of Picric acid at the garage sale' home and let the kids kick it around the lawn (so long as they don't hurt their toe's).

YOU DON'T KNOW IT'S HISTORY STUPID (as Clint said about the economy)

Don't end up doing a Mr Blobby. Stay safe.

Dann2


Attachment: Picric Acid and Picrate Salts - Articles - CANUTEC - Transportation of Dangerous Goods - Safety - Transport Canada.mht (127kB)
This file has been downloaded 1084 times


[Edited on 31-12-2009 by dann2]

Rosco Bodine - 31-12-2009 at 06:09

Here we go now on a journey into the surreal, it may not even be picric acid in the jar at all .....so now what ?

Wait ...don't tell me....I've got it now, if it looks like picric acid and walks like picric acid, and quacks like picric acid , it's not picric acid at all .....it's just a yellow duck :D

There you have it folks, what does the United States Army's ordnance laboratory know compared to the Canadian transportation safety regulatory agency ? Obviously Canada has a great propaganda ministry and must use the same writers as does the U.S. They have a sense of humor, I'll give them that.

Now you have heard the joke so you can understand the punch line at last, or at least I hope you can get this. The entire premise that shelf quantities of picric acid should be kept damp for storage is the false notion upon which all the rest of the inventory keeping inspection logs and any potential crystal growth problem scenarios is predicated.
Picric acid is perfectly storage stable in the dry condition so why introduce what is claimed to be a problem with deliberately added moisture ? It isn't rational, and yet if
you understand that the crystals which may grow in the presence of moisture aren't really dangerous anyway, and that this entire propaganda for public consumption is total bullshit, the people who actually do know what is true there, know it doesn't make any difference wet or dry, it is not
a bona fide problem either way.




[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]

grndpndr - 31-12-2009 at 21:44

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
I have a genuine contempt for prohibitionists and regulators and especially for property taxation and licensing which reduces what are and should be absolute rights to nothing more than purchased permissions granted from de facto overlords who have only legitimate authority to be public servants. I am very old school concerning personal liberty and its defense. The only legitimate authority which a government has is what it receives by the consent of the governed. For too long and in too many ways it is a global plague that governments forget that the people are their master and not the other way around. It is those in error
who benefit from correction, not those who had it right all along.

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]


I think my points been missed,My personal beliefs are in the main libertarian and I couldnt agree more with the above.
However since H.S. openly made thier belief known that 'right wing' conservatives as well as returning servicemen are in effect suspect.(Which they quickly retracted)Was the post I qouted (disarmament) innocent but perhaps unwise or an invitation for antigovernment rants?
Being primarily a chemistry forum political discussion suggesting use of an energetic material for "defense" presumably against gov entitys makes me uncomfortable in the extreme.

[Edited on 1-1-2010 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 1-1-2010 by grndpndr]

Rosco Bodine - 1-1-2010 at 01:30

No one should ever misinterpret me as being anti-government. Quite the contrary I am pro common sense government and pro ethical government, but I am anti-tyranny and anti-corruption and so far as is possible I am anti-taxation and anti-regulation. I believe that what most people want from government most is a good letting alone, where their freedoms and their pocketbooks are concerned, and they don't want to be handed the bill for glorious crackpot schemes of crooks and dreamers whose idea of a perfect world is where everything experienced has some sort of government supervision and involvement.

Government ought to be a welcomed competent and honest servant of people, a welcome partner, not an incompetent and dishonest and unwelcomed unconsented dominator and master making its threats and impositions. It is the contrast that is the difference there like the difference between good food and poison.

My family helped found and build this country and has continually helped arm it and defend it. The principles which are my heritage are legal, constitutional, sworn to be upheld, and non-negotiable.

vulture - 1-1-2010 at 02:34

Interesting this comes up now. In our university lab I found an old bottle of about 50g of picric acid. It clearly showed signs of sublimation inside the lid and was bone dry. Estimated age was more than 30 years, given the total absence of any safety information and general style of the label.

It was carted off in a large plastic drum with PS filler and handed over to EOD. They didn't detonate it on the spot but took it with them. It was all quite relaxed, no evacuations or anything.

[Edited on 1-1-2010 by vulture]

Rosco Bodine - 1-1-2010 at 03:30

Compliments to you and your colleagues for appropriate discretion in keeping things low key. The hazard truly is minimal to non-existent anyway, and hysteria freaks out the public which consequentially brings undeserved scrutiny and regulation to scientists who already have too much red tape. I use storage bottles which have polypropylene caps bearing a non rotating 2mm thick solid teflon disc that deforms against the rim of the bottle like a wax. Also I have more expensive reagent bottles which have the entire threaded cap made of solid teflon. I have a half dozen solid PFA 2 liter storage cannisters which have a silicone backed solid teflon disc for added resiliency at the seal. The instruments and equipment which I have managed to collect over the years is largely government surplus. There are probably a few of us who have accumulated a fair amount of expensive equipment over the years and who consider it to be valuable personal property worth protecting from those who for whatever reason would attempt to violate our right to retain ownership and use of what is our personal property.

vulture - 1-1-2010 at 04:29

I must admit that I was afraid of opening the bottle, given the large amounts of crystals inside the lid. Also, you are probably familiar with the old Aldrich brown glass bottles, they often had a plastic cap with metal inserts or even metal threads.

The bottle was labeled as microscopy coloring reagent with no immediate reference to its contents. Only closer inspection revealed a formula which contained a most peculiar ratio of N and O. :D

Last but not least, we shouldn't forget that the acute toxicity of picric acid is something which shouldn't be drowned by the discussion about the severity of the explosion hazard.

BTW, Belgian EOD probably has plenty of experience with degraded TNP and derivatives. They are still called in regularly to clean up WWI duds from the battles around Passendale. This usually amounts to TNP of questionable quality in metal casings which have been buried for about 90 years...

[Edited on 1-1-2010 by vulture]

Rosco Bodine - 1-1-2010 at 07:01

If you read about the history of picric acid and learn that for a hundred years chemists were working with the material as a stain and dyers were using it also,
without anyone discovering that the material could be used an explosive,
until it happened that someone investigated the possibility it could be initiated by a powerful enough primary explosive used as a detonator .......that alone will tell you that picric acid is not unduly sensitive. Because it is certain that during the
careless handling that occurred for a hundred years, that any doubt about its
nature as an explosive would have been very suddenly removed and its explosive nature revealed to some
unlucky soul, rather than for its explosive properties to quietly await the deliberate pursuit of someone intentionally causing it to detonate.

At this point I reiterate what I have said before about the misleading hazard misinformation which has been published by regulators being 100% propaganda , as the information is completely false. Whether the reason is hysteria or political or some mixture I don't know and will leave that mystery to others.

There was some prior discussion in this thread about who owed an apology to whom.

Let those who make false representations and insults to deceive make their apologies.

The truth and verifiable information is what you have gotten from me.

Trust in the LORD, ( but keep your powder dry )

[Edited on 1-1-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

franklyn - 1-1-2010 at 19:52


The following is a compendium of information from various sources such as
The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives by Tenney
and these two standard military texts.
Military Explosives TM-9-1910 from 1955
Picric acid munitons are obsolete and so it is omitted in the later edition
from 1984 - Military Explosives TM 9-1300-214
* Note
An authoritative material safety data sheet would be the military
HCSDS - Hazardous Component Safety Data Sheet
- 00905 - Ammonium Picrate
There must be one for Picric acid itself. These are not generally
available outside of authorized channels of use.


A little bit of history worth repeating.

_

1771 - Picric acid was first prepared by French chemist Pierre Woulfe,
who found that the action of Nitric acid on Indigo yielded a material
which dyed silk yellow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_dye
- Picric acid is an aromatic nitro compound which is used as a yellow dye
in the textile industry.
For a century thereafter the compound was used without recognition
that it was capable of being made to explode.

1778 - Hausmann isolated the substance and reported further studies
of it in 1788

1800 - Mercury Fulminate was discovered by English chemist Edward Howard
who described its detonating properties in a paper before the Royal Society.
- This was to prove crucial for the eventual use of Picric acid as an explosive.

1807 - The principle of using Mercury Fulminate as a primer was patented
by Rev. Alexander J. Forsyth of Aberdeenshire, Scotland.

1841 - Ammonium Picrate was first prepared by Marchand, unaware of the
explosive properties which would not see use until decades later.
- Ammonium Picrate is distinctly less sensitive to impact than TNT
( 17 inches 2 Kg impact test ) and is unaffected by the steel shoe in the
pendulum friction test. In the sand test, Ammonium Picrate is not detonated
completely by either Lead Azide or Mercury Fulminate. A booster charge of
of Tetryl is required for complete detonation.

1843 - A. Laurent obtained Picric acid by the nitration of Phenol and also
found that some of the salts are explosive.

1847 - Nitroglycerin, an ester of glycerin and Nitric acid, was invented by
Italian chemist Asconio Sobrero. Because Nitroglycerin is sensitive to shocks,
commercial use was delayed until the invention of dynamite and blasting
gelatin.

1863 - Trinitrotoluene TNT was prepared by German scientist J. Willibrand.
Although TNT saw use for many years in the dye industry, TNT was not used
as an explosive until 1904.

1867 - The fulminate blasting cap, a device consisting of Mercury Fulminate
in a copper tube used to detonate explosives, was invented by Alfred Nobel.
This cap was crimped to one end of a safety fuse ( Bickford fuse ), and then
inserted into the dynamite.

1871 - The explosive properties of Picric acid are determined
by German chemist Hermann Sprengel
This became feasible only after the invention and general use of priming
detonating compounds ( Picric acid being a secondary explosive requires a
primary explosive to initiate it's detonation ). Picric acid is only slightly more
sensitive than TNT as indicted by 2 Kg impact tests , 14 inches for TNT
13 for Picric. But much more so by high velocity rifle bullet impact ,
only 2 % detonations for TNT 50 % detonations for Picric.
Temperature for explosion is less for Picric acid 322 ºC than TNT 475 ºC

1885 - 1888 - Eugene Turpin, a French scientist, patented the process
of melt-pouring picric acid into artillery shells as a high explosive filler.
Sprengel had discovered that Picric acid could be initiated by a powerful
detonator, but had not exploited this knowledge. The French Government
adopted a high explosive shell designed by Turpin using a Picric acid filler.
They designated the Picric acid filler as Melinite.

1888 - the British adopted Picric acid, which they called Lyddite as a
high explosive filler.

1900 - Picric acid ( British Lyddite ) shells were used in the Boer War but
did not detonate completely. This was attributed to faulty construction of
the detonators.

1901 - Dupre showed that picrates of Calcium , Lead ,and Zinc, formed
in situ by melted Picric acid initiates it's explosion.
- Moisture has a marked effect on reducing the sensitivity of Picric acid
to initiation. The presence of 0.5, to 2.0 % of moisture requires increasing
the minimum detonating charge. The drawback is moisture increases
Picric acid reactivity with metals such as lead, zinc, copper, nickel and iron.
Some of the compounds produced are very sensitive to heat , sensitizing
the ordnance to elevated temperatures. This reactivity requires that all
projectiles containing Picric acid have contact areas covered with acid
proof paint.
Metal Picrates formed by moisture retain water of hydration. Dehydrated ,
these Picrates become more sensitive to impact but are not as sensitive
as Lead Picrate which is more sensitive to impact than mercury fulminate
although it is less sensitive to friction.
Picrates of Lead and Zinc are formed in contact with molten Picric acid ,
which being primary explosives sensitive to heat explode at a lower
temperature initiating detonation of the Picric acid in the more sensitive
melted state.
It is believed this is the mechanism by which explosions from magazine
fires may have occured as the content of the shell melted and reacted
with lead / tin solder or galvanized steel forming picrates.
See Lead Picrate Page 6 of COPAE by Tenny

1909 - Ammonium picrate ( Dunnite or Explosive D ) was standardized in
the United States as a bursting charge for armor-piercing (AP) shells.
These AP projectiles could be fired through 12 inches of armor plate,
and could be detonated on the far side by an insensitive primer.
- The setback force experienced by a projectile at the moment of being
fired from a gun barrel is on the order of 20,000 times that of gravity.
A person subjected to such force a would become a puddle instantaneously.


In view of the foregoing it is incongruous how misinformation about Picric acid
continues to be asserted. The real risk from Picric acid in the dry state is from
inhalation of it's dust which is toxic. Another may perhaps be , that finely
powdered combustable materials are more readily ignited perhaps even in this
case by static electricity. The reason for maintaining it wet. The appearance
of large crystals is apprehended to be the formation of some salt as a result
of contamination since this is not the natural crystal form of Picric acid. It is
in all likelyhood simply the result of water evaporation producing slow crystal
growth on some particle which provides a point of nucleation.
If one comes upon a container labled baking soda one does not speculate
could it instead be Lye. So, viewing a container labeled Picric acid why should
one suppose it instead contains Lead Picrate.

What if speculations by safety professionals that one expects would know better
are entirely imagined supposititious scenarios. I am unaware of any account
or report documenting such occurrences as being actual.

.

a_bab - 2-1-2010 at 01:05

Well,

Someday, long time ago, a friend of mine had the oportunity of aquiring some 1 kilo amount of PA, from old reagent bottles. He had some bad experience detonating the homemade amounts (neither of the common peroxides could make it go off, but LA did the job with some strong confining). Consulting the literature revealed that it was actually quite difficult to make it kick back, even the army had lots of issues eventually phasing it out, so he didn't get the old PA anymore.

A documentary seen some time ago had also revealed the fact that burning picric acid is not that sensitive. In other words, in a certain fire incident, where an entire warehouse full of picric acid drums were burning and pieces of hot steel frame/plates from the roof kept falling in the blaze of burning melted PA, contrary to the authorities no huge explosion occured. Tonnes of PA just fiercely burned away.

If it was ammonium nitrate, an explosion would have been most certainly possible.

Having this said, in Rosco I believe.

Rosco Bodine - 2-1-2010 at 01:30

Yesssssss......yipppeeeeeeeeeeeeee !

Their eyes are open !

Thank you a_bab :D

It's really a hell of a thing to contemplate the implications .......I know,
believe me I know, and I really hope it isn't anything sinister Big Brother misinformation ministry kind of stuff,
but just bureaucratic stupidity working overtime. However, to be realistic,
when I see things like tobacco smoking out of doors being prohibited
allegedly due to the "risk" involving exposure of passersby to second hand smoke, it really makes me wonder how much overtime for bureaucratic stupidity
is enough. I wonder how much exposure to scrutiny a whole lot of regulations
could actually withstand, and how many of them are purely politics or only a
pretext for making impositions to tax and/or aggravate people.

BTW a_bab, or whatever your "real" name is .......... ;):P ....ha! just kidding :cool:

Interesting that the thread split has somewhat come full circle as now we see the matter revealed further about how regulators may be at odds with private citizens engaged in what should be their unimpeded private conduct. I have to wonder what Bethany Halford would think about this hopefully defused situation, where the "credentialed expert and giant of industry" would incite a mob of ignorant angry villagers to make their way by torchlight up the road to Dr. Frankensteins castle, to ransack his laboratory and put him in chains and throw him into prison.......for his daring to experiment with a dye that may also have other usefulness.

The irony and the parallel are colorful and rich.



[Edited on 2-1-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

franklyn - 12-2-2010 at 12:55

A Textbook of Organic Chemistry 1921
http://books.google.com/books/download/A_textbook_of_organic...

While not precisely true , that it is not an explosive itself , the cursory treatment
of this compound reflects the recognition at that time of it's insensitivity , while
noting the reactive nature of the material which is responsible for its undeserved
reputation.

Excerpt from TM-9-1300 Ammunition
http://www.everyspec.com/ARMY/TM+-+Tech+Manual/download.php?...

Acknowledges the shortcomings of both Picric acid and Ammonium Picrate with
regard to it's reactivity which promotes sensitivity. It can explode if heated confined
as inside a shell , otherwise it simply burns.

.


Picric.gif - 27kB Tm-9-1300.GIF - 22kB

entropy51 - 12-2-2010 at 13:28

More evidence from the 1917 Chemical & Metallurgical Engineering, to raise Rosco's spirits a little higher.

Rosco Bodine - 12-2-2010 at 14:39

Sometimes folks can be slow to catch on .....and that's okay,
so long as they get there eventually, slow but sure works for me :cool:
(more often than I would care to admit actually) :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOmb_U1k5Ys&fmt=18 How Long (before we get it right)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQMcZZURcwQ&fmt=18 Emerald Stardust

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0vy4wDfrmQ&fmt=18 ditto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZRSTNjVouM&fmt=18 Get Back To Serenity

[Edited on 13-2-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

dann2 - 13-2-2010 at 11:59

Hello,

Pure, properly looked after Picric acid is safe as a house. We all accept that. It's this unknown bottle of stuff containing 'Picric acid' that is presented to haz mat where all the fun starts, or stuff that has sat in a shell for the last 100 years or so.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU!!! :D

Dann2 (public information service No. 1)

quicksilver - 13-2-2010 at 12:40

The fear generally in some old school chemistry lab stores was from a friction detonation involving the unscrewing of the cap of a dry bottle of picric acid. While PA will pop if struck steel on steel (with a worthy wack) the idea of it popping from something like old Bake-a-lite and glass rubbing together is pretty damn far fetched. The friction unit that I had seen a picture of was a pendulum affair that swung back and forth, passing over another surface. In each proceeding test the "swing-arm" would be pulled further back. I do not know what materials were at the contact points, nor do I know if the armature was "lowered" to a certain depth each time, but the material was give a "-" when compared (by the USBoM) with other materials of which some displayed a certain distance number figure of which indicated how far the thing had to swing.

I have seen a high grade of PA ( about what would comprise a match-head) make a fair noise when placed in Al foil and wacked with a steel hammer on an anvil. That same agenda did not have any effect at all on TNT. But it may have been that somewhere some purity compromised PA shot in a lab when the cap was opened but I have NEVER read where or how.

Of metal picrates I have also NEVER heard of a ferric-picrate being called a primary, yet the inside of shells WERE painted, etc to prevent the materiel from forming. In fact, that would be an interesting experiment, to see if a picrate other than lead would even present a level of sensitivity worthy of being called a primary.

[Edited on 13-2-2010 by quicksilver]

Rosco Bodine - 13-2-2010 at 15:59

The fear is unfounded, and is in that category of axiomatic falsehoods known commonly as "old wives tales". The unfounded fear simply does not withstand scrutiny as being justified at any stretch of whatever convoluted rationalizations may be applied, with of course the one exception that fear of any unknown can be elevated to hysteria and seem prudent if the better to be safe than sorry standard is applied......in which case every unknown material encountered should be treated with caution commensurate with the possibility however remote, that
the unknown material might be deadly nerve gas, ebola, or possibly even anti-matter travelling incognito.

It is of course possible there could be a snap crackle pop or even a startling bang from a corroded metal jar cap, and that
would cause apprehension on the occasion of that event, however ...that being said, it is also impossible that such a
snap crackle pop or bang could shoot the entire jarful of material, unless of course the material was something different from picric acid, in which case we are not even talking about picric acid anymore, but guessing about an unidentified material which would be something else.

[Edited on 14-2-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

dann2 - 14-2-2010 at 07:17

Quote:
__________________________________________________

unless of course the material was something different from picric acid, in which case we are not even talking about picric acid anymore, but guessing about an unidentified material which would be something else.
__________________________________________________

Indeed, indeed!
Insides of shells were not painted to waste paint in wartime. No, no, no. It's to avoid the evil byproducts. Is TNT used a a reagent? I don't think so but if it were and an old bottle of it was found sitting on a shelf and it was totally unknown who was 'at it' or where it had been etc etc it would have to be treated with some respect.
So regarding those grinding glass tops:
You do not want Picric acid pooping, crackling or snapping all over you (do you?)

Dann2
(Public information source No. 1)

Did you hear about the illigitimate rice crispy?
Snap, crackle and no pop

Rosco Bodine - 14-2-2010 at 10:51

So, it is only a mere speculation deemed sufficient to justify a full alert EOD response team being called into action, much the same as if an archaeologist were to feel justified in contacting the Egyptian embassy in connection with a student rumor that reposing in Grant's tomb is not the remains of the departed general at all ....but possibly is a mummy ..... saying it is due diligence to inquire concerning the possibly missing King Tut ...they ought to investigate immediately :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1LWxo1QqXg&fmt=18 King Tut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcMRe0FNN00&fmt=18 Valley Of The Kings

[Edited on 14-2-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

franklyn - 14-2-2010 at 23:51

Agencies of government responsible for oversight of reactive materials , spell
out detailed specifications for their packaging , handling , and transport.
It's a strange inconsistency then that if screw top containers are deemed a
grave hazard if used with TNP that it has remained the practice , when flip
top mason jars of the type used for preserves have been around for much
longer.

That full article from 1917 posted by entropy51

Picric Acid Explosions.gif - 339kB

Rosco Bodine - 15-2-2010 at 06:26

That article squares well with what is "accepted truth" in my own experience.

There is a lot of "stuff" out there in the world which "passes for knowledge"
but is incorrect. I suppose that ultimately we each have to make our own
determination what is the real story on such things. That task alone can
certainly be a legitimate basis for research, to make a determination one
way or another what is true about many matters that are questionable as
to what exactly is true. Experiments are a good way to see for oneself.

ScienceSquirrel - 15-2-2010 at 09:08

It seems that iron and calcium picrates are more sensitive than the parent acid.

http://www.bradfordhistorical.org.uk/antiquary/third/vol03/l...

nitro-genes - 15-2-2010 at 11:00

A commenly forgotten factor is the substantial concentration of lead in the air, which slowly convert the picric acid into lead picrate given enough time...

Reference: -->
http://www.environment.gov.au/soe/2006/publications/drs/indi...

[Edited on 15-2-2010 by nitro-genes]

Rosco Bodine - 15-2-2010 at 11:24

Calculation models would need to also factor in a percentage reduction of available atmospheric lead caused by the competing lead sequestering capacity of asses in the vicinity, adjusted for the relative saturation level with regards to the maximum capacity realizable for the lead in those asses.

The_Davster - 15-2-2010 at 12:29

Seriously? Lead in the air having forming enough lead picrate with exposed picric acid to be dangerous? I do not buy it.

nitro-genes - 15-2-2010 at 13:11

Haha, it seems great minds think alike Rosco! :D

I hadn't taken into account these factors, though give or take a few billion years I'm sure it will still have an effect.

Speaking of asses, chemicals used in the lab do tend to have a half life regarding their purity. I've seen bottles of silver nitrate in colours ranging from black to blue/green and Tris base smelling just like yeast extract. Could be a biochemist thing though...
Point is that I would think twice about handeling a bottle of PA that has been around in one of these labs for 30 years. :)

[Edited on 15-2-2010 by nitro-genes]

Rosco Bodine - 15-2-2010 at 13:30

A stream of water from a wash bottle is your friend, or if you are in the field....
improvise ......the resulting runoff will be yellow anyway :o

Really I am not a psychologist, but from an engineering perspective it would seem to me that the "bad rap" which has been accorded picric acid is a kind of pyrophobia or a chemophobic variant or combination with that phobia. Maybe it is a sort of obsesssive compulsive paranoia ......
and to perhaps coin a new word
we could call it a pyrochemophobia secondary to or accompanied by acute regulatoritis and anally retentive interventionism presenting as a generalized nanny neurosis or psychosis.

Perhaps some soothing, contemplative music can help smooth those rough spots along the way on one's journey
to enlightenment :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQGzSTzkibk&fmt=18 Feng Shui

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXG9lEToME0&fmt=18 Shiatsu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzrmqqD3md4&fmt=18 Feng Shui Twoie

[Edited on 16-2-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

grndpndr - 29-8-2010 at 11:14

picric acids far from the first or last material organic or otherwise
that the government will deal with using measures usually reserved for nuclear materials.granted meth labs large stashs of drugs easily airborne drugs arent the heathiest places around but with adequate ventilation and throwaway cloth coveralls basic respirators the risks way overblown,same could be said for moldy buildings no one thought twice 20yrs ago about mold and around the same time a rush to remove basically entombed harmless as they were prior to removal and relelase.. asbestos fibers.Far better ways to control a sleeping hazard than intentionally awake the hazard and spread the material building wide. Exposing everone who worked ther with far higher levels than they ever would have had to deal with working there.
basically no ones saying the governments operating using the best information avaliable there simply doing what the laws provide whether is wise or not. its not a war on PA obviously but a war on any number of percieved toxins. another beuacracys dream come true Govts reason for being and an increasing budget to make the buearocrats and gov seem important/nescessary.:(

The WiZard is In - 29-8-2010 at 14:07

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  
A Textbook of Organic Chemistry 1921
http://books.google.com/books/download/A_textbook_of_organic...

While not precisely true , that it is not an explosive itself , the cursory treatment
of this compound reflects the recognition at that time of it's insensitivity , while
noting the reactive nature of the material which is responsible for its undeserved
reputation.

Excerpt from TM-9-1300 Ammunition
http://www.everyspec.com/ARMY/TM+-+Tech+Manual/download.php?...

Acknowledges the shortcomings of both Picric acid and Ammonium Picrate with
regard to it's reactivity which promotes sensitivity. It can explode if heated confined
as inside a shell , otherwise it simply burns.



Well .... under the proper circumstances ..... it's attitude
can be adjusted.

An Explosion Of An Appalling Character.

Report on the Circumstances attending a Fire and Explosion at
Messrs. Roberts, Dale & Co.'s Chemical Works, Cornbrook, Manchester,.
Gov. Rep. No. lxxxi.
Colonel V. D. Majendie, C.B.
In:—The Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry. Vol. VI. No. 12. December
31, 1887

THIS exhaustive report shows that the articles manufactured on the side of the
works where the explosion occurred, were picric acid, nitrate of lead, nitric acid,
hydrochloric acid (nitre cake and salt cake), tin crystals, tin solutions, nitrate of
iron, nitrate of copper, aurin, Manchester brown, Manchester yellow, lakes for
paper stainers and emerald green. Such raw materials as carbolic acid, sulphuric
acid and litharge, the litharge being used for making nitrate of lead, were all
present, the latter salt in very considerable quantity; some nitrate of strontium
was also present.

A fire commenced the catastrophe, this breaking out at or near the stove used
for drying the picric acid. The fire spread quickly, and in five or six minutes an
explosion followed, but not one of an alarming character. This explosion came
from the site of the picric acid stove as nearly as it can be located. It was
followed in something under a minute by a second explosion of an appalling
character, and attended with disastrous results in the shape of damage. One life
was lost.

There is little doubt that the fire was caused by the carelessness of a workman,
who was smoking. Several theories are advanced to explain the first and lesser
explosion, but the second, which was so disastrous, was in all probability due to
the blazing and molten picric acid coming in contact with the litharge placed in
close proximity and with the nitrate of lead and nitrate of strontium. It would at
once combine with these and form fearful explosives. Picric acid alone can
scarcely be called an explosive, but if it comes in contact even with plaster or
lime, it forms a picrate of high explosive character, and it is shown that picric acid
mixed with a little litharge in the cold, produces a mixture which explodes much
more readily than picric acid alone.

Finally, the precaution is urged, that in the manufacture of picric acid the
separation of the acid from all other substances or ingredients, contact with
which would be likely to produce under favorable conditions a picrate or
explosive mixture should be carefully seen to.

"At present picric acid and picrates appear to fall within the category of
'explosives,' and to be subject to the Explosives Act, 1875, only when they are '
used ' or manufactured with a view to produce a practical effect by explosion or
pyrotechnic effect. "

" In view of the present disaster," Colonel Majendie proceeds, "and of the results
of my experiments it will be a matter for careful consideration whether it is not
necessary in the interests of public safety to take advantage of the powers
conferred by the 104th section of the Explosives Act, 1875, and to extend the
definition of explosive to picric acid and all picrates, for whatever purposes
manufactured, and to apply the same provisions of the Act, subject to such
exceptions, limitations and restrictions as may appear reasonable. This point,
however, is one which, in the interests of the trade, as of the public, demands
the fullest and most careful consideration."

As to the storage together and in close proximity of the several substances which
resulted in the formation of such fearful explosives, Colonel Majendie stigmatises
it as the result of negligence.—W. S.



Rosco Bodine - 29-8-2010 at 15:33

Enough "picric acid hysteria" propaganda .....
let's move right along to this weeks showing
of "reefer madness" and "1984".

PA in schools

The WiZard is In - 29-8-2010 at 16:02

No doubt one could find dozens of these, I remember
several years back the National Park Service (?)
removed a bottle of PA from Edison old lab in NJ.


POTENTIALLY EXPLOSIVE ACID REMOVED FROM SCHOOL SCIENCE
LABS
Army bomb specialists and local police departments have picked up small supplies
of a potentially explosive acid from the science labs of eight Ocean County (N.J.)
schools and one Monmouth County school this week.

Bottles of picric acid found at Central Regional, Lakewood and Brick high schools in
Ocean County were considered too volatile to transport and were detonated at the
school sites. Supplies were also found in the Toms River High Schools North and
South, Point Pleasant Beach High Soho and Ocean County College in Ocean County
and Freehold Township High School in Monmouth County. Those supplies have been
transported to Fo Dix or Fort Monmouth for disposal.

The existence of the chemical in local schools came to light after news reports last
week that a chemistry teacher in New York City had alerted school authorities to a
decades-old supply of picric acid in his school laboratory. A search turned up supplies
of the acid in about two dozen New York City high schools. Ocean County schools
Superintendent William F. White said he ordered a similar inventory of county
schools.

The acid, not often used today, was a stock item in school chemistry laboratories
years ago. The dictionary defines the substance as a poisonous, yellow, crystalline
bitter acid used in making dyes and explosives and in analytical chemistry. It is
supplied either in a powdered form or already mixed with fluid. Both the powder and
the fluid forms crystallize with age and become unstable. Opinions vary as to how ex-
plosive it becomes.

Vincent R. Bickler, acting principal of Point Pleasant High School, said he had been
told by a chemistry teacher that "you would have to shoot a bullet at it or pound it"
before it would explode. Dover Township Detective Robert V. Hayes, however, said "I
wouldn't want to be the one to drop a bottle of it."
Four explosive ordnance disposal technicians from the 60th Ordnance
Detachment, Fort Dix, collected one bottle of picric acid each from Tom River High
School South and Ocean County College in Dover Township and four bottles from
Toms River High School North yesterday. The bottles contained about 6 ounces
each.

The technicians were headed by Capt. Gary J. Motsek, 60th Ordnance
Detachment commander. They were accompanied by Detective Hayes and Charles
Hayes, chief of security for the Toms River schools. Lt. Douglas G. Kremer, a
spokesman for Fort Dix, said all the bottles contained acid about 20 years old. The
technicians, he said, described one bottle from Toms River North as "hairy." It looked
hairy because when the chemical ages, the top of it looks like cotton or spun glass.
The vial, though "definitely very, very bad," according to the Fort Dix spokesman,
was not detonated, in part because there was no suitable detonation site at the
school.

Point Pleasant Beach police said they picked up two small vials of liquefied picric
acid [PA solution?] from the school there at 9115 a.m. yesterday (Feb. 7)- A worker at the Naval
Weapons Station at Earle, Colts Neck Township, picked up the vials from the police
station at 11130 a.m. Two of the four technicians from Fort Dix, meanwhile, had gone
to Lakewood High School and two to Brick Township High School.
In Lakewood, two ounces of the acid in a small, loosely corked glass vial were
detonated on the athletic field, considered a good detonation site. Another 6-ounce
vial was taken back to Fort Dix. Technicians made their third trip this week to Brick
Township High School yesterday. One bottle of picric acid was removed Monday, two
were detonated Tuesday and two removed to Fort Dix yesterday. A 6-ounce bottle
was detonated on the grounds of Central Regional High School Tuesday.

A team from the 54th Ordnance Detachment, Fort Monmouth, collected a supply
of the acid from Freehold County Township High School yesterday afternoon.
Detonation "made a significant bang" and shot debris 100 feet into the air, a Fort Dix
spokesman said.

(From the ASBURY PARK PRESS (N.J.), Feb. 8, 1979, contributed by Ken Kragh. It
would be interesting to know how the acid was detonated, probably by blasting caps,
as the substance is a primary explosive (actually tri-nitro-phenol, closely related to
TNT) requiring initiation by some such means to cause detonation. With regard to
impact sensitivity, Davis reported in THE CHEMISTRY OF POWDER & EXPLOSIVES
that it could be detonated by a 2-Kg weight falling 42.5 cm, or about 4-21 pounds
failing [?] inches. From this it would seem unlikely that detonation would result from a
6-ounce bottle of it falling to the floor or ground; however, like Detective Hayes, we
wouldn't want to try it with a bottle of the stuff that had been sitting around for 20
years!

As most students of pyrotechnic literature know, the principal use of picric acid in
fireworks used to be for making pyrotechnic whistles, [?] in tubes as potassium
picrate powder. Weingart (1947) however, recommended a 3/1 mix of potassium
chlorate and gallic acid as safer and less troublesome to prepare, while at the same
time making a "very good whistle." In late years most such whistles appear to have
dispensed with both the above acids, using instead sodium salicylate and potassium
perchlorate, about 3/7, though producing a somewhat less shrill whistle than the
earlier mixes. It it is interesting to note that this salicylate is a close chemical relative of
aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid), which may explain why its modern use for whistles
makes for fewer headaches among the manufacturers (?). Apparently both have
some of picric acid's behavioral properties, too: we have in fact read a. "field
expedient" method of converting aspirin tablets to picric acid!)

---------
Byda the good old Red Book sez less than 25 pounds
of picric acid with not less than 10% water (49 171 20, NA1344) is
a flammable solid not an explosive.

Rosco Bodine - 29-8-2010 at 16:59

Actually no, the crystalline and powder forms do not "crystallize with age and become unstable" but opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. On the other hand, facts are facts, and truth is meant for those who seek it, rather than for it to be simply taken for truth and believed whatever is written or disseminated by those few for whom whatever lie and disinformation reenforces their particular ignorance and / or serves their particular agenda.

Some people have the wrong idea that a lie is power, rather than that knowledge empowers, and for any deception they can perpetrate or even deceive themselves into believing they have perpetrated .....then they enjoy the further illusion that they have somehow been empowered over those they deceive.

It is a fine madness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0lAcSKJjqQ&fmt=18 Panhandle Rag

The mystification of energetic materials via disinformation is a brazen attempt of and by government propagandists to discourage and interfere with factual knowledge being in the possession of those whom they would prefer be kept unarmed with either wits or firearms, because they don't wish to have a level playing field with those whom they would seek to subjugate. There used to be an absolutely opposite philosophy which "governed" in a time before governance became extremely corrupted.

[Edited on 30-8-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

grndpndr - 29-8-2010 at 17:21

Exactly what my post was intended to describe, a beauracracy run amuck supoposedly concerned with the safety of all feeding on its own declared success,demanding
more government largesse tro expand its mission, declaring more and more products unsafe for the unwashed masses.Rapidly dissapearing shelves that contain any potentially dangerous materials from news papers that dont report news anyway to the second line of defence against unfettered govt intrusion also no longer a right being reinterpreted and also to dangerous for again the unwashed masses or the Public in this case.
God given right or not a free press, right to keep and bear arms as well as assemble is far to dangerous and subversive an enterprise for the uneducated uninformed public who need gov guidance to engage in.Self determination by the mob?! The
gov says this idea is ridiculous,the mob,you and I, need guidance from cradle to grave.

[Edited on 30-8-2010 by grndpndr]

Rosco Bodine - 29-8-2010 at 17:32

A true blue bureaucrat would advocate that all horses be killed so that no cavalry can be mounted up to put down a government which has gone off the reservation and is whooping it up against its own people. And basically that's the sad situation which we have.

Everyone should keep in mind that the same overly "safety conscious" bureaucrats engaged for decades in a mindless arms race where enough nuclear weapons were built to completely destroy the entire earth a dozen times over,
and more recently have imposed "medical treatment" using Ritalin and similar drugs upon more than a million children
who were misdiagnosed as having a far less common disorder than was first believed, known as "attention deficit disorder" (A.D.D.) later recognized to more often than not be a misdiagnosis more accurately designated as cases of professional ineptitude and incompetence residing with some adults who never understood that it is normal for children to behave as children, rather than miniature adults.


[Edited on 30-8-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

grndpndr - 30-8-2010 at 12:50

Regardless of safety it is a very litigious society.With that in mind i dont know if its wise from a standpoint of potential lawsuits to have what has been determined by the PTB that regardless of any discussion to the contrary here Old bottles of PA represent a hazard,real or imagined.
Thats a legal fact so it would be irresponsible for those in charge to do any less than report the presence of the materials.And have them removed as the protocol demands.To do otherwise would likely be viewed as reckless on our part assuming we valued our jobs as a chemistry teacher.later we could have explained our belief to our students that the scare is far overblown but not if we were fired for negligence by disposing it of our own accord. like it or not in some situations the game is played according to rules we dont believe in
and our personal beliefs matter very little in these cases.In other words id save the fight for when it matters and a positive outcome is achievable rather than tilting at windmills.No offense.:(

Rosco Bodine - 30-8-2010 at 13:38

Some people will "play the game" go along to get along, been there, done that myself and just got tired of it, because it is a neverending comprimise on top of comprimise and at some point you just can't keep a straight face about the "company line" anymore, about whatever long list of "fill in the blank" kind of things in what really is a rigged game where there is a double standard for everything ....and it all comes down to things being the way some say, just because they say so, in the realm where truth is reduced to nothing more than a figment of somebody's imagination, and that somebody doesn't even have a clue.

At some point, a man just gets tired of riding that train you know, and it becomes a matter of to thine own self be true, and screw the critics.

As for saving the fight for when it matters, it's the accumulating comprimises that is gradualism, incrementally surrendering gets you to the same destination but it only takes awhile longer and makes it easier to deceive yourself that it isn't really happening. Look around at what we've got now versus what we had forty years ago and separate the real progress from the bullshit which has been advertised as progress. Technology has advanced but how far have people evolved ?

Call me old fashioned, but fighting sons of bitches isn't tilting at windmills especially when you have knocked on or two of 'ems sorry butts to the ground.
I'm one that will look the assholes square straight in the eye and say I refuse to play the game. I will "play ball" when I have to (for the right price) but I sure as hell won't dress it up as being anything else but a whoring required by the circumstances if and when that happens, not pretending a shotgun wedding was a heartfelt romance unless of course I had secretly planned it all along to be both.