Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Nitric question

Contrabasso - 15-1-2010 at 11:24

I've been offered LOADS of strong HCl is it sensible to make HNO3 with KNO3 or NaNO3 or am I going to distil over an Aqua Regis mix?

12AX7 - 15-1-2010 at 13:23

Heating will likely result variously in Cl2, NOCl, NO2, etc.

You might have some luck precipitating an insoluble chloride, e.g. Pb(NO3)2 + 2HCl --> PbCl2 + HNO3. Filter with fiberglass paper or frit!

Subsequent distillation will remove what PbCl2 remains, and concentrate it closer to the azeotrope. I would expect 30-50% strength is easy to obtain.

Tim

[Edited on 1-15-2010 by 12AX7]

entropy51 - 15-1-2010 at 15:14

Quote: Originally posted by Jor  

How were you planning to make HNO3 from HCl ? I think this nearly impossible.

Foss_Jeane - 2-2-2010 at 12:04

Quote: Originally posted by Contrabasso  
I've been offered LOADS of strong HCl is it sensible to make HNO3 with KNO3 or NaNO3 or am I going to distil over an Aqua Regis mix?


It's doable from nitrates and HCl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yE7v4wkuZU&feature=relat...

User - 2-2-2010 at 12:11

Please dont refer to nurdrage.
Pure crap and confusion spreading.
It might not be impossible stil it is far from useful/economical to do this with hcl.

[Edited on 2-2-2010 by User]

Alexein - 4-2-2010 at 08:55

Quote: Originally posted by User  
Please dont refer to nurdrage.
Pure crap and confusion spreading.
It might not be impossible stil it is far from useful/economical to do this with hcl.

[Edited on 2-2-2010 by User]


Dude chill out, Foss_Jeane was just saying it was *doable* from HCl, never said it was useful/economical.

but hey, if sciencemadness is *ONLY* about practicality and never about learning stuff just for the hell of it then i'll shut up.

Alexein - 4-2-2010 at 09:07

Quote: Originally posted by Contrabasso  
I've been offered LOADS of strong HCl is it sensible to make HNO3 with KNO3 or NaNO3 or am I going to distil over an Aqua Regis mix?


Directly mixing HCl and nitrate is going to make a crappy version of aqua regia. I think i read somewhere on this forum actually that it doesn't produce nitric acid if you distill it, can't remember why exactly.

While possible using the metal-hcl-nitrate route, as mentioned before, it's not going to be cheap/easy/sensible.

Unless its REALLY REALLY cheap for all the reagents (like 0.25 cents/kg cheap), i honestly don't think the metal-HCl-nitrate route is going to be effective.

but you can try it anyway if you just want some nerd points.

[Edited on 2-4-2010 by Alexein]

hissingnoise - 4-2-2010 at 09:56

Quote:
but you can try it anyway if you just want some nerd points.

Just don't expect HNO3 - Cl and NO, yes!

Alexein - 4-2-2010 at 10:04

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
but you can try it anyway if you just want some nerd points.

Just don't expect HNO3 - Cl and NO, yes!



The video is fake? i always suspected something about it. thanks for the heads up :)

hissingnoise - 4-2-2010 at 15:53

Well, not totally fake but the first solution is essentially that - a (very dilute) solution of NO2 in water.
It tests as HNO3 but the concentration would be negligible as most of the NO2 is unreacted.


Alexein - 5-2-2010 at 09:48

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Well, not totally fake but the first solution is essentially that - a (very dilute) solution of NO2 in water.
It tests as HNO3 but the concentration would be negligible as most of the NO2 is unreacted.




Interesting, i knew that NO2 can exist as itself in nitric acid (i think it's called red fuming nitric acid or something) but i didn't know it could do that in water. Is there a way to test the difference between NO2 dissolved in water and actual nitric acid? might be a cool way to prove nurdrage is wrong.

hissingnoise - 5-2-2010 at 10:09

Technically I'm not saying he's wrong; I am saying he exaggerates some things purely for effect. . .
He seems to be a competent chemist for all that!
Heating a NO2 water solution will drive off some NO2 but a portion will oxidise to HNO3.

Alexein - 5-2-2010 at 10:24

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Technically I'm not saying he's wrong; I am saying he exaggerates some things purely for effect. . .
He seems to be a competent chemist for all that!
Heating a NO2 water solution will drive off some NO2 but a portion will oxidise to HNO3.


ah gotcha!!

yeah i agree, too much "showmanship"

loveoforganic - 7-2-2010 at 19:35

I don't think his main goal is so much to inspire great chemistry as it is to inspire some initial interest.

arsen - 16-4-2010 at 20:33

NO2 dissociates in water forming HNO3 and HNO2 which is actually how industry makes HNO3.

NO2 is soluble in concentrated nitric acid... called red fuming nitric acid, usually about 85% HNO3 and the balance being NO2.

If you simply dissolve NO2 in water, your mixture will have lots of nitrite ion, so simple qualitative nitrite test, even redox titration are the simplest way to do, if you want to get more involved, colourimetry is preferable in the industry.
Quote: Originally posted by Alexein  
Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Well, not totally fake but the first solution is essentially that - a (very dilute) solution of NO2 in water.
It tests as HNO3 but the concentration would be negligible as most of the NO2 is unreacted.




Interesting, i knew that NO2 can exist as itself in nitric acid (i think it's called red fuming nitric acid or something) but i didn't know it could do that in water. Is there a way to test the difference between NO2 dissolved in water and actual nitric acid? might be a cool way to prove nurdrage is wrong.

Skyjumper - 18-4-2010 at 09:45

Why not just the H2SO4 nitrate route (H2SO4 is cheap hardware store stuff)

gdflp - 1-7-2014 at 04:45

Sorry for bumping this thread and I just came across it and found it really funny. Seeing as alexein is NurdRage's second (well technically first) account.

Amos - 1-7-2014 at 10:19

So why exactly wouldn't a gross excess of sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate work for this? Could you not eventually remove all the HCl in this manner?

aga - 1-7-2014 at 11:32

One feels like a total weener.

I tried out the second of the nurdrage nitric youtube experiments today.

Doh !