Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Simple Question -- Obtaining Pyrotechnic Supplies

Simple Question -- Obtaining Pyrotechnic Supplies

Rich_Insane - 1-2-2010 at 16:33

Hey guys, I've decided to abandon my previous ambitions for now (organic chemistry), because I'm a dirt poor kid. So I've decided to go into Energetics again, and very simple ones.

Currently I'm buying my KNO3 from Ebay from a supplier that sells it for 2 bucks a pound (but 5 bucks shipping >.>

. But to make some BP, which I would like to attempt, I need charcoal, sulfur, and some Visco fuse. Now, my major drawback is that I'm a poor kid using Paypal. A lot of the good pyro sources require credit cards. I would like to pay by Paypal.

Recently, I bought from a nice supplier in the UK, but unfortunately, I live in the USA, and it's harder to find good pyro suppliers around here. So do you all have recommendations? MY budget is a maximum of 15 bucks per item including shipping.... That's my budget (I'm so cheap).

Is Visco fuse available OTC?

grndpndr - 1-2-2010 at 20:07

Many stores sell debit cards,VISA Etc from $25 up to IIRC $200.Those work in lieu of regular CCs,or all online trnsaction ive used.Tryed my bank act debit card whcih was stolen within a few purhases from rep stores.Musta had hackers,got my $ bk however.

Visco fuse Is available in most pyro supplies,better for caps/simple ignitin is e-matchs for rocketry etc.can be used as is fot ignitng pyro matches or blasting caps wh imagination and firn train and simple primarys for HE's.

[Edited on 2-2-2010 by grndpndr]

Swede - 2-2-2010 at 08:04

If you live in the USA, you shouldn't be buying from the UK. The US has a number of excellent pyrotechnic suppliers with dirt cheap prices. Here are some links:

http://www.americanpyrosupply.com/
http://www.hobbychemicalsupply.com/servlet/StoreFront
http://www.skylighter.com/
http://www.cannonfuse.com/store/pc/home.asp

Usually, it's the guys in Europe and Australia that have troubles obtaining supplies.

ScienceSquirrel - 2-2-2010 at 14:05

Really if you are doing pyrotechnics you should be doing it with an adult member of your family or a friend that can help you with the safety issues.
A small amount, say 5g of acetone peroxide, exploding in a hard glass tube close to your face could blind you for life.
Why not get in to some safe chemistry and go out and meet some young women or have fun with your friends?
Young love is a lot better than love later in life when you have jobs, children, etc.

Rich_Insane - 2-2-2010 at 16:44

Safety? I've been working with smoke mixtures for a bit now. I despise organic peroxide. I won't even attempt making more than a few grams before moving onto more stable stuff.... I'm not a k3wl like every other kid that lurks in pyro forums.... I've been studying chemistry for about two years now. I don't get any lab experience. At all. Shows how sickening the education system, is now. I'm desperately bored, and science is my favorite subject, and out of science chemistry is the most accessible (I dislike physics immensely....). And who doesn't like seeing something react quickly and violently, eh?

Around here there's two things you can do: Be bored and smoke/cook meth. I really don't like those choices.

@grnpndr: Are there cards where you can deposit whatever amount of money you have in your Paypal directly to the card's corresponding account?

@Swede: Thanks! Your sources are legitimate. I thought you guys could get sodium chlorate as weed killer and KNO3 as fertilizer over there? I haven't dug around as much, but the stuff here is pretty impure, if there is anything useful. But that Hobby Chemical supply

I tried to purchase some Charcoal, and they charged 14 bucks shipping on it? Since when is ground ashes hazardous? Same thing on American Pyro supply..... I get my KNO3 shipped to me for 5 bucks shipping. Surely something's wrong here? Why is charcoal so expensive to ship?

densest - 4-2-2010 at 18:45

Charcoal is sometimes classified as "spontaneously igniting" which adds a hazmat fee (insert huge apoplectic outrage here).

If you are interested in pyrotechnics, contact the PGA (Pyrotechnics Guild of America) for info on a local pyro club which will give you support, information, places to legally set off anything that is legal for anyone in the US to shoot, hints, tips, etc. The membership fees may seem high. They pay for insurance requirements which have the force of law in the US (apoplexy again). The freedom to openly shoot your creations at the scheduled shoots is worth a huge amount of money. If you can't afford the fees, talk to them anyway - many clubs have a "can't afford it" way to join.

I would recommend skylighter.com as the best remaining amateur pyro supplier in the US. All the others have succumbed to the vendetta the CSPC has against fireworks. The Consumer Products Safety Commission (an unelected and invulnerable body) has the open and frequently stated goal of banning all fireworks in the USA. I recommend anyone living in the USA to write their elected officials (for whatever good it might do, ha ha ha) to restrict the CSPC to hazards which imperil more than a few people a year - automobiles, for instance (ha ha ha hah ha).

Rich_Insane - 4-2-2010 at 18:57

Wow, I used to think that the Energetics/Pyrotechnics side of Chemistry was the cheapest. This is as expensive as hell. Skylighter wants a $30 minimum order. I just want a pound of charcoal and sulfur for under 25 bucks total......

What the hell is wrong with American Government? Am I getting the notion that this is becoming more and more of a retarded fascist state???!?!! :mad:

watson.fawkes - 4-2-2010 at 19:35

Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane

I just want a pound of charcoal and sulfur for under 25 bucks total.

You can buy a big bag of agricultural sulfur for half that budget. It will require driving out of the city into places where people buy chemical soil amendments in big bags. It will also require some processing before use, washing it, at least.

ScienceSquirrel - 5-2-2010 at 06:51

Quote: Originally posted by densest

If you are interested in pyrotechnics, contact the PGA (Pyrotechnics Guild of America) for info on a local pyro club which will give you support, information, places to legally set off anything that is legal for anyone in the US to shoot, hints, tips, etc. The membership fees may seem high. They pay for insurance requirements which have the force of law in the US (apoplexy again). The freedom to openly shoot your creations at the scheduled shoots is worth a huge amount of money. If you can't afford the fees, talk to them anyway - many clubs have a "can't afford it" way to join.

I would recommend skylighter.com as the best remaining amateur pyro supplier in the US. All the others have succumbed to the vendetta the CSPC has against fireworks. The Consumer Products Safety Commission (an unelected and invulnerable body) has the open and frequently stated goal of banning all fireworks in the USA. I recommend anyone living in the USA to write their elected officials (for whatever good it might do, ha ha ha) to restrict the CSPC to hazards which imperil more than a few people a year - automobiles, for instance (ha ha ha hah ha).

Anyone interested in rocketry, pyrotechnics etc should consider joining a club.
The safety tips, insurance etc are to my mind invaluable, not only that but you are doing it legally and above board so no trouble with the authorities, neighbours calling the police etc.

Rich_Insane - 5-2-2010 at 17:45

Oh, I don't want to do fireworks. Just black powder, maybe a a few confined charges. We have very open fields here... I don't plan to continue BP for a while, I want to move on to more interesting things. Before I can do that I have to stock on some equipment, especially a good distillation kit and a good set of glassware.

ScienceSquirrel - 6-2-2010 at 16:04

I do not see what you want to do.
Obtaining the materials to make black powder is straight forward.
Even if you cannot buy pure charcoal, sulphur and potassium nitrate from a supplier, equivalent materials are available if you look around, though they will require some purification.
Obtaining, purifying and preparing the materials is good practice.
Simply put, you can start from barbecue charcoal, agricultural sulphur, a concentrated nitrate fertiliser and potassium chloride and make black powder.
Hours of work as you clean, grind, distill and
crystallise your raw materials but you will learn a lot of chemistry on the way.

Jor - 6-2-2010 at 16:52

Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane

Safety? I've been working with smoke mixtures for a bit now. I despise organic peroxide. I won't even attempt making more than a few grams before moving onto more stable stuff.... I'm not a k3wl like every other kid that lurks in pyro forums.... I've been studying chemistry for about two years now. I don't get any lab experience. At all. Shows how sickening the education system, is now. I'm desperately bored, and science is my favorite subject, and out of science chemistry is the most accessible (I dislike physics immensely....). And who doesn't like seeing something react quickly and violently, eh?

Around here there's two things you can do: Be bored and smoke/cook meth. I really don't like those choices.

@grnpndr: Are there cards where you can deposit whatever amount of money you have in your Paypal directly to the card's corresponding account?

@Swede: Thanks! Your sources are legitimate. I thought you guys could get sodium chlorate as weed killer and KNO3 as fertilizer over there? I haven't dug around as much, but the stuff here is pretty impure, if there is anything useful. But that Hobby Chemical supply

Now how is that? I thought US was the big campus (parties enough). Or do you study in a very boring place?

I agree with ScienceSquirrel! Do not take too much risks with chemistry, or you might lose the other fun things such as girls indeed

, and friends. I find the combination of all these things very enjoyable

[Edited on 7-2-2010 by Jor]

entropy51 - 6-2-2010 at 17:17

Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane

Wow, I used to think that the Energetics/Pyrotechnics side of Chemistry was the cheapest. This is as expensive as hell. Skylighter wants a $30 minimum order. I just want a pound of charcoal and sulfur for under 25 bucks total......

What the hell is wrong with American Government? Am I getting the notion that this is becoming more and more of a retarded fascist state???!?!! :mad:

WTF? You think the retarded fascist state is setting the prices of the chemicals you want to buy? You seem much too immature to be messing with chemicals, let alone explosives.

densest - 6-2-2010 at 21:15

Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane

Well, I've visited Harry's business (skylighter) and I'll tell you that the cost of packaging the materials to ship them legally is high. UPS and the post office require triple-sealed containers in a sturdy (*legally defined*) box.

Your $15 would be much better spent buying Harry's latest improved "introductory practical pyrotechnics" book.

A couple of close fitting coffee cans or a burned-clean paint can with a good top, some wood (maple, poplar, whatever's available and dry... oak & other really heavy woods aren't good), a nail to punch a little hole in the lid, a couple of hours sitting by the fire, and presto! instant fireworks charcoal. Cost? $2 or 3 if you buy a gallon can at Home De$pot, free if you carefully burn and scrape out old paint from a discarded paint can. Lots of places throw away pallets (big stores get palletloads of stuff) and the wood is cut, dry, and free.

Sodium nitrate is available if you look carefully in rural agricultural stores. 5 pounds for $8 or so. Potassium chloride is used to melt ice or to regenerate water softeners. It comes in 50-pound bags for $15 or so. Sulfur is sometimes available in drugstores - check the "reduced for clearance" shelves. An electric coffee grinder (goodwill, etc, or $15-25 new), a bottle of 95% isopropyl alcohol ($2 or so) and presto! black powder.
You need some sieves - a really fine one for the charcoal & a window screen to granulate when you're done.

Don't try grinding with a mortar & pestle - a small one won't grind more than a teaspoon at a time and a big one is expensive and will seriously challenge your arm muscles. I'm assuming you'll use the "CIA method" since ball milling is a whole 'nother subject - remember that if you have succeeded making good powder, it will go off soaking wet if overheated. So don't have any open flames or red-hot surfaces in sight. It's guaranteed that the little spill you didn't notice will fall in the exact wrong place at the exact wrong time.

Rich_Insane - 7-2-2010 at 12:34

Quote:

WTF? You think the retarded fascist state is setting the prices of the chemicals you want to buy? You seem much too immature to be messing with chemicals, let alone explosives.

I'm talking about the CPSC and shipping costs, sir. It really pissed me off at the moment.

The reason I haven't homemade charcoal is that I do not have a ball bill to grind it down to a very fine particle size. I also do not have a suitable place to burn wood. I like densest's idea. I will give it a shot. I've heard charcoal briquettes are adultered with something that hinders quality of BP. I have also ordered sulfur from a reliable supplier in the UK. It ended up being cheaper than buying from USA, despite international shipping.

What about burning some Birchwood in a ceramic/clay pot?

Quote:

Now how is that? I thought US was the big campus (parties enough). Or do you study in a very boring place? I agree with ScienceSquirrel! Do not take too much risks with chemistry, or you might lose the other fun things such as girls indeed

, and friends. I find the combination of all these things very enjoyable

Nah, this is stereotypical suburb Western USA. If I had darker skin, it would be another subject, but I'm not. This is agreed, but I hardly regard BP as risky as what other people pursue around these forums. There's really not much to do around here. I clearly understand the risks of everything. I'm so paranoid, I almost call the ambulance if I ingest too much salt. I've even called the FBI because some retard sent me a joke about stalking me!

I live in Oregon. There's no good supply stores for anything around here. There are a few chemical supply houses, but I recall that it costed 70 bucks for 500 ml of 10% HCl and 10% H2SO4. That's more than a ripoff. That was for my 4th grade project so long ago too, I bet prices have gone up.

[Edited on 7-2-2010 by Rich_Insane]

entropy51 - 7-2-2010 at 13:06

Quote:

I'm talking about the CPSC and shipping costs, sir. It really pissed me off at the moment

The CPSC has nothing to do with shipping costs or requirements. You may mean DOT. But the incredible markup on shipping is how the vendors make their money. The government sees not a penny of your shipping costs. And there are vendors who don't ship everything as hazardous; look for those people.

Quote:

There's no good supply stores for anything around here

There are no good supply stores almost anyplace you live. My recollection from your previous posts is that you're 14 years old, have no credit card, and your parents don't want you to buy chemicals.

I think you should stop being mad at someone, anyone whom you can blame. I think that you could find ways to get chemicals, same as I did when I was 14 years old. First thing is to make some money as in shoveling snow and mowing grass, just like I did. And you may have to learn enough chemistry to make chemicals from the stuff that is sold in the local stores, and trust me the stuff is in the stores. I don't know why you have so much trouble finding good OTC stuff. I find something new everytime I go to a hardware store.

But I really think the only solution to your problem is to find another hobby. You seem not to have the resources of one kind or another that it takes to pursue an expensive hobby. It seems as if you want it all handed to you wrapped up with a nice bow on it.

Polverone - 7-2-2010 at 13:19

Portland is a pretty nice place. If you don't think there is anything to do the problem isn't Portland.

I lived there until about 5 years ago. I still visit family a few times a year. Most houses have fireplaces or wood stoves. Outdoor charcoal barbecues could be used for charcoal-making also. There are public recreation areas with outdoor fire pits and barbecues if you are desperate for a place to make charcoal. If you can't find a place to burn wood, where are you going to burn BP?

I have seen potassium nitrate based stump remover products on shelves of Portland stores, including chains like Fred Meyer. You can also buy a few ammonium nitrate based instant cold packs and produce KNO3 by metathesis. It's not the cheapest nitrate source, but it is convenient and if you don't have the equipment to mill powder you shouldn't go through it very fast. You should also be able to find dusting sulfur with ease. You may ask at nurseries or need to go to outer farming areas to find places that will sell nitrate fertilizer in large quantities. That is much cheaper per pound if you can afford the initial purchase.

I bought 80 pounds of NH4NO3 and 50 of KNO3 for under $100 combined a few years ago in Oregon. I simply and truthfully told an employee at a farm-oriented supplier that fertilizers were much cheaper sources of certain common chemicals than laboratory suppliers, so I was interested in any unmixed fertilizers they could supply. I didn't get any suspicion or resistance.

You will also find hydrogen peroxide, technical grade sulfuric and hydrochloric acids, xylene, toluene, methanol, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, and many more interesting chemicals on retail store shelves in the Portland area if you start reading labels and looking. Wake-up time: there's lots of things to do in Portland and the surrounding environs, and there's plenty of chemicals on the shelves for pyrotechnics or other chemistry, but you actually have to put effort in yourself.

Rich_Insane - 7-2-2010 at 13:37

I have a lot of KNO3 and I have Sulfur on the way. My family isn't big on BP. I was going to set off BP in some of those swampy-forest areas that never get dry (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about if you've lived in Oregon

). I don't have a permit or license to drive yet, so it's sort of hard to get around, and my parents aren't very supportive people.

I have a bunch of clay pots to burn wood for charcoal. I'm worried about how fine the charcoal needs to be to be used for BP. Most pyro grade charcoal is very fine airfloat charcoal, but I don't have a ball mill to grind it down. I do, however have a coffee grinder.

Ace Hardware is plentiful here, I've bought Acetone from there... But where can I get H2O2? Ace doesn't sell that...

Quote:

No, that comment was on someone talking about how the CPSC was restricting everything that had to do with fireworks. Those vendors aren't very common, and the ones that are those people don't accept Paypal.....'

Quote:

I think you should stop being mad at someone, anyone whom you can blame. I think that you could find ways to get chemicals, same as I did when I was 14 years old. First thing is to make some money as in shoveling snow and mowing grass, just like I did. And you may have to learn enough chemistry to make chemicals from the stuff that is sold in the local stores, and trust me the stuff is in the stores. I don't know why you have so much trouble finding good OTC stuff. I find something new everytime I go to a hardware store. But I really think the only solution to your problem is to find another hobby. You seem not to have the resources of one kind or another that it takes to pursue an expensive hobby. It seems as if you want it all handed to you wrapped up with a nice bow on it.

Getting a little personal eh? I've actually worked pretty hard to get what I have now. I went overseas one time to buy some glassware. The problem is that I can't go over to India every year to get glassware for record cheap prices (got an Ahlinn for 5 bucks

). The problem is that there aren't any hardware stores in walking distance here, and no farm stores for miles. Unless I want to be biking for three hours to reach the heart of the farming region, it's hard to get fertilizers. I live right behind the city and the farm. My friends never understood why i hated this area so much. The issue is that the city is over the hills, and it's excessively difficult to reach the city. The farms are close, but all the farm stores are 20 miles away. All the hardware stores are at the 5 mile mark, because I live in a super-suburb.... The drug stores sells IP Alcohol and that's about it, unless one can do something with a pack of condoms and 3% H2O2. Money is really hard to get around here.... There's already too many migrant workers doing the jobs that I would be doing (mowing lawn, landscaping, etc.). It doesn't snow here.

The only job I do is go to a lab to work on research every week, and that's not even paid. If it was paid I wouldn't be in this subforum very much. Even acquiring things like copper piping is hard here without breaking into houses and stealing duct piping.....

Now will someone give me some serious answers?

entropy51 - 7-2-2010 at 13:42

Quote:

The only job I do is go to a lab to work on research every week, and that's not even paid.

I see the problem.

Quote:

...my parents aren't very supportive people.

And I see another problem. Since you so quickly dismiss my advice as non-serious I won't waste my time again.

Polverone - 7-2-2010 at 14:00

In the Portland area buses and MAX should supplement the range you can get from a bike alone. You can do the bulk of your travel on public transit then do the last few miles on bike if the destination isn't within walking distance of a transit route. You can do a lot without a car. I didn't get a car until I was 26.

I will admit that bike + public transit may not work for you if your parents are opposed. In fact I don't know of any way to tell you what you want to hear if your parents are opposed to pyrotechnics also. I didn't get any financial support from my parents for my adolescent pyrotechny but I did at least have their trust.

Here's an idea for you: try to get into the Apprenticeships in Science and Engineering program. It looks like it is too late to be part of the 2010 wave but keep it in mind for next year. If you are really interested in science or engineering it is a great experience. When I did it it was a great addition to school applications and funded some purchases I would not have been able to afford otherwise. I worked with an epilepsy researcher at Good Samaritan Hospital to visualize seizure electrical activity projected onto patient skull data acquired by MRI. The pay was actually below minimum wage on an hourly basis when I did it a decade ago -- it's an apprenticeship, not a job -- but you'll still have $2000 or so at the end of the summer and you'll get to do something more interesting than mowing lawns or busing tables.

If you are trying to convince your parents that you are serious and responsible this may be a good way to do it. Even if they aren't swayed, the program should provide you with enough money to fund basic chemistry experiments the rest of the time you are in high school.

Rich_Insane - 7-2-2010 at 20:39

Quote:

In the Portland area buses and MAX should supplement the range you can get from a bike alone. You can do the bulk of your travel on public transit then do the last few miles on bike if the destination isn't within walking distance of a transit route. You can do a lot without a car. I didn't get a car until I was 26.

That's perfect! Since you have lived up here and performed your hobby, have you bee to/heard of Nurnberg Scientific out on Virginia in Portland? Is it worth heading out to? They will probably have some basic reagents like acids and bases, salts, and metals, right?

It's not that I did not think of public transport before; I just didn't very much know where to go other than ACE.

Quote:

Here's an idea for you: try to get into the Apprenticeships in Science and Engineering program. It looks like it is too late to be part of the 2010 wave but keep it in mind for next year. If you are really interested in science or engineering it is a great experience. When I did it it was a great addition to school applications and funded some purchases I would not have been able to afford otherwise. I worked with an epilepsy researcher at Good Samaritan Hospital to visualize seizure electrical activity projected onto patient skull data acquired by MRI. The pay was actually below minimum wage on an hourly basis when I did it a decade ago -- it's an apprenticeship, not a job -- but you'll still have $2000 or so at the end of the summer and you'll get to do something more interesting than mowing lawns or busing tables.

That's really awesome, but I've already got some research that I've been working on for some time. I don't want to sound utterly greedy here, but I'm wondering if I could make some money off of it. I've been working with melanin-based biological semiconductors for two years now.... The research isn't ultra-breakthrough, but I really don't want it to sit in my logbook all my life.

Quote:

I will admit that bike + public transit may not work for you if your parents are opposed. In fact I don't know of any way to tell you what you want to hear if your parents are opposed to pyrotechnics also. I didn't get any financial support from my parents for my adolescent pyrotechny but I did at least have their trust.

My parents want to know everything I'm doing, and I'm kind of afraid of telling them that I'm doing pyrotechnics... I'm not sure if they're for or against it.

Quote:

I see the problem.

That's totally not vague at all!

Quote:

If you are trying to convince your parents that you are serious and responsible this may be a good way to do it. Even if they aren't swayed, the program should provide you with enough money to fund basic chemistry experiments the rest of the time you are in high school.

Well, I've worked with stuff that's far more dangerous than BP or even some secondary explosives (in my eyes, and don't laugh, I work in microbiology

) like Conc HCl, Chlorform, Methanol, Acetylacetone, etc etc.

My parents really don't care about my hobby. They only care about my SAT, my school, etc. And I hate that. Textbooks annoy me (But I'm willing to learn always).

@Polverone: Would you know any place in Portland that distributes such basic materials at a reasonable price?

Polverone - 7-2-2010 at 21:44

Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane

I have some materials from them, but they were sourced through a school rather than by me directly. They are probably not well suited to your current budget. I don't know if they sell directly to the public; I would be fairly surprised if they would sell to a minor unaccompanied by parents, at least for anything remotely hazardous. There's another Portland-area member here, DetaDude, who said that Nurnberg wasn't the friendliest place even for small businesses like his. If I were still living in the area I'd probably take a look at them, but try not to get hopes too high in advance.

Apart from Ace Hardware you should look at nursery and landscaping suppliers, paint stores, pool and spa suppliers, hydroponics, art ceramic suppliers, health food stores, baking suppliers... it depends on what sort of chemistry you want to try. On your current budget you can't afford to buy a wide variety of chemicals first and plan experiments later; you should let your desired experiments guide purchases. If you have to sneak around your parents to make BP I really don't think it is a good choice of activity despite the low price.

You said you already had KNO3 on the way, though. Do your parents object to anything with fire, or just BP? There's an enormous thread here with a lot of references to and speculation about partially reducing nitrates to nitrites with e.g. lead, carboxylic acid salts, charcoal, sugar, and other materials. Lead is the classic material but the reduction process is slow and labor-intensive. Can you optimize fuel, ratios, and ignition conditions for producing nitrites from nitrates in a more pyrotechnic fashion? You would be doing actual research, there are other members here who could benefit from what you learn, and it would give good practice in experimental learning, materials purification, and analysis. You should also be able to do it on a relatively modest budget; apart from the materials already on the way, you would need potassium permanganate and dilute sulfuric acid for determination of nitrite. You would also need a fairly accurate balance or scale and volumetric glassware, but you said you already had some glass.

Rich_Insane - 7-2-2010 at 22:40

Quote:

That's fine, I was just wondering. There was another place I remember called American Scientific.

Quote:

You said you already had KNO3 on the way, though. Do your parents object to anything with fire, or just BP? There's an enormous thread here with a lot of references to and speculation about partially reducing nitrates to nitrites with e.g. lead, carboxylic acid salts, charcoal, sugar, and other materials. Lead is the classic material but the reduction process is slow and labor-intensive. Can you optimize fuel, ratios, and ignition conditions for producing nitrites from nitrates in a more pyrotechnic fashion? You would be doing actual research, there are other members here who could benefit from what you learn, and it would give good practice in experimental learning, materials purification, and analysis. You should also be able to do it on a relatively modest budget; apart from the materials already on the way, you would need potassium permanganate and dilute sulfuric acid for determination of nitrite. You would also need a fairly accurate balance or scale and volumetric glassware, but you said you already had some glass.

I've had KNO3 for a while now, I bought a few pounds of it over the last 3 months. I've got quite a bit.

I'm not sure. I actually ended up mentioning my interest in energetics today, and they did not seem very happy. They already know that I've been mixing sugar and KNO3 to make a sort of R-Candy. At this point I've just been playing around with it, making batches, testing 1 g quantities with various amounts of coarse Al powder which I purchased from UK and seeing qualitative differences.

I would love to do such an experiment! I have a lot of free time during a single week in spring, I could do something then. I remember that potassium permanganate as an aquarium supply. Will this suffice, or will I have to purchase a good grade? Same with sulfuric acid. Currently, I have my eyes on Rooto brand drain cleaner, but it's hardly pure H2SO4.... I have a scale with a resolution of 0.01 g x 150 g... It's fairly accurate, but it's one of those cheap Chinese pocket balances.

I do have Borosil and Pyrex glassware, but alas no volumnetric flasks. At the moment I am missing some vital equipment. I have acquired 4 Florence flasks (2 RB, 2 FB), 3 glass beakers (50 ml, 250 ml, 400 ml), an Erlenmeyer (250 ml), and various other equipment.

Thanks!

UPDATE: I looked up some of KNO2's properties and apparently it is yellowish colored.... When I burn my "R-Powder" mix, it produces a strange molten salt that is very yellow colored.... The yellow color disappears after the salt solidifies. Previously I assumed that it's just the color of K2CO3 at that temperature.... but could it be that KNO2 exists briefly and is reduced further into N2 gas?

[Edited on 8-2-2010 by Rich_Insane]

Polverone - 8-2-2010 at 11:23

Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane

I would love to do such an experiment! I have a lot of free time during a single week in spring, I could do something then. I remember that potassium permanganate as an aquarium supply. Will this suffice, or will I have to purchase a good grade? Same with sulfuric acid. Currently, I have my eyes on Rooto brand drain cleaner, but it's hardly pure H2SO4.... I have a scale with a resolution of 0.01 g x 150 g... It's fairly accurate, but it's one of those cheap Chinese pocket balances.

I do have Borosil and Pyrex glassware, but alas no volumnetric flasks. At the moment I am missing some vital equipment. I have acquired 4 Florence flasks (2 RB, 2 FB), 3 glass beakers (50 ml, 250 ml, 400 ml), an Erlenmeyer (250 ml), and various other equipment.

Thanks!

UPDATE: I looked up some of KNO2's properties and apparently it is yellowish colored.... When I burn my "R-Powder" mix, it produces a strange molten salt that is very yellow colored.... The yellow color disappears after the salt solidifies. Previously I assumed that it's just the color of K2CO3 at that temperature.... but could it be that KNO2 exists briefly and is reduced further into N2 gas?

[Edited on 8-2-2010 by Rich_Insane]

There may be some KNO2 in your leftover salts, particularly if there is an oxidizer excess and/or your materials are not intimately mixed. If there is a lot of KNO2 in there you will see red-brown fumes come off when you add the material to an acid. If there is only a trace you would need to titrate to discover it.

Your cheap Chinese pocket balance may be adequate. Keep some constant-weight items around (like clean coins) that you can use to test the scale periodically to ensure its measurements aren't drifting. You may even be able to get away without volumetric glassware if you have some lightweight containers that can go on your scale, enabling measurements to be done by mass instead of volume. Small plastic cups like are used for sauces in take-out restaurant food should work well. You can get hundreds for just a few dollars.

You might be able to get away with using aquarium permanganate as long as you keep your samples to be titrated small. I bought pounds of KMnO4 from Sears a few years back. It was sold for regenerating certain kinds of water filters. You should see if any Sears around you has it or can order it for you, or try asking the same of hardware stores. I seem to recall that Sears sold small bottles that would last you for thousands of titrations as well as the 5 pound size, which would be overkill. The idea is that you will titrate an acidic permanganate solution to the point it loses its color, using the mixed molten salts left behind by your ignited mixtures. The permanganate oxidizes nitrite to nitrate. The acid is present to increase the oxidizing power of the permanganate, and sufficient also needs to be present to neutralize any other bases in the mix.

As long as you have an excess of nitrite and simple carbonaceous fuels, it is probably not too bad an assumption to think that you are simply titrating nitrite. If you introduce e.g. metals, sulfur, or formate salts as fuels, or there is insufficient excess of oxidizer, you may end up with compounds other than nitrite that can reduce permanganate. That complicates the analysis.

For the acid I would not recommend drain cleaners. You want something fairly pure. If you cannot find fresh battery electrolyte for sale, pool and spa places sometimes sell dilute H2SO4 for pH adjustment. If that fails, I am sure you can find NaHSO4, also for pool adjustment, and it should be acid enough for your purposes. Another possibility is using H3PO4 instead; you may be able to find it as a combined nutrient and pH adjuster at a hydroponics supplier.

You'll want to run a blank titration against your starting KNO3 and the acid you use. That is, you should check that your acid and/or KNO3 alone do not reduce the permanganate solution. You will also want a standard compound, like sodium oxalate, to calibrate your acidic KMnO4 solution with, to ensure that its oxidizing power remains constant over time. Sodium oxalate is easily prepared from oxalic acid, which you should be able to find as a wood bleach at Ace, Home Depot, or a similar store.

It is easier to experiment to optimize nitrite production than to determine the precise quantity of nitrite in each sample, since there is less calibration necessary. It is sufficient to know that sample A contained a proportion of nitrite twice that of B, even if you have not calibrated your measurements to know how many milligrams of nitrite B actually contains. You can do most of the optimization work with relative quantities, then get absolute quantities at the end (if so desired) after you've already done some optimization experiments.

Other complications to consider:
-The nodules of combustion products produced from KNO3-based mixtures are frequently deliquescent. How will you deal with or counter moisture absorption? Would it be easier to use NaNO3, since the combustion products shouldn't be quite so hygroscopic?
-How homogeneous are the combustion products from your experiments? You could test by breaking one combustion-rock into small fragments and analyzing them separately, or preempt the question by dissolving the whole sample and analyzing an aliquot.
-How repeatable are the results when you believe that you are following essentially the same procedure? You should repeat experiments and analyses under the same conditions to see how much variance in experiment and analysis can be expected even when you do "the same thing." That will give you an idea of whether a new set of conditions gave a significant change in outcome or if differences appear random.

Be sure to record the results of your experiments and the exact procedures you follow. If you follow the same procedure for each sample you don't need to write it all down every time but you should write down exactly what you do the first time, and if you later change your procedure be sure to note it. What you remember today you'll have forgotten in a week, especially if you try many small variations on the same theme. If you have access to a digital camera it can supplement your written records.

You should also do some background reading on the production of nitrites from nitrates, titration, preparation of solutions, etc. There's a lot of good material online to be read. If you can't find useful material on your own I can direct you later.

[Edited on 2-8-2010 by Polverone]

Rich_Insane - 8-2-2010 at 15:37

Ah well I would need a buret and ring stand for titration, wouldn't I? Or is this something else?

I can easily buy volumetric glassware... I doubt just 2-3 will be beyond my budget. I'll probably need it anyways. I did read that someone made KNO2 with 3KNO3 + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 3KNO2. I have approximately 200 g of coarse aluminum powder (particulate, but not the kind that's ultra-fine). I will be sure to look around Home Depot. The Ace stores here are fairly small. However, many Home Depots in the area stock impure chemicals such as mixtures that are nearly impossible to purify. However, there is a convenient car part store right next to the Ace hardware. I wonder if I'll get any odd looks when I'm buying a gallon of battery acid

.

Is there any acid strong enough to form NO2 from KNO2 that can be purchased from a pharmacy? I want to get to just seeing what happens qualitatively, and convincing my parents to allow acid in the house.

If you would be kind enough to redirect me to a thread where this is discussed, I'd do some research on here and elsewhere.

Right now I'm thinking of just doing a 6 g mix of 3:2:1 of KNO3:Al:Sugar or Charcoal (or both).

Stupid question here: By "molten salts in the acidic permanganate", do you mean actually molten (in the liquid state), or dissolved(aqueous)?

I'd be happy to know just the rough percentage of nitrites in the result. Should I test a control with some regular potassium nitrite obtained from an external source? I've heard that it's a meat preservative.

Polverone - 8-2-2010 at 18:02

Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane

Ah well I would need a buret and ring stand for titration, wouldn't I? Or is this something else?

You can keep track of quantities by volume or by mass. I was suggesting that you could do it by mass if you had a reasonably precise and accurate scale but lacked the glassware to do it volumetrically.

Quote:

Is there any acid strong enough to form NO2 from KNO2 that can be purchased from a pharmacy? I want to get to just seeing what happens qualitatively, and convincing my parents to allow acid in the house.

If you would be kind enough to redirect me to a thread where this is discussed, I'd do some research on here and elsewhere.

Right now I'm thinking of just doing a 6 g mix of 3:2:1 of KNO3:Al:Sugar or Charcoal (or both).

Stupid question here: By "molten salts in the acidic permanganate", do you mean actually molten (in the liquid state), or dissolved(aqueous)?

Nitrous acid is very weak, so most acids that aren't easily oxidized should work. Citric acid should be fine. I wouldn't use vinegar, for two reasons: it is strong enough, but it is not concentrated enough. Unless you have a large proportion of nitrite present it is likely to give a solution of nitrous acid instead of visible fumes. Second, the strong smell of acetic acid is likely to interfere with the more sensitive instrument of your nose. Invisible levels of NO2 can be smelt if there are not other strong odors. As a rule, though, you should avoid breathing NO2: it is quite toxic. You would want to treat it like chlorine if you're trying to detect it by odor.

This is the nitrite production thread. There's a fair amount of nonsense in there, perhaps some of it written by me, as is usually the case with long threads. At least it shows that there are quite a few members interested in producing nitrites from nitrates.

You would be titrating an aqueous solution of salts produced from high-temperature nitrate reduction, not the still-molten salt mixture.

Take a look at Journal of the Society of Dyers and Colourists, Volume 7 starting on page 183. You want to read the article "The Estimation of Nitrous Acid in Sodium Nitrite." The author's suggested method of titrating a known quantity of warm, acid KMnO4 solution with a nitrite mixture is the one I would suggest you follow. It should be tolerably accurate and simple and the chemicals are easy to get.

Quote:

I'd be happy to know just the rough percentage of nitrites in the result. Should I test a control with some regular potassium nitrite obtained from an external source? I've heard that it's a meat preservative.

If you can get pure potassium or sodium nitrite for practice and calibration of your methods that would be great. You can order it at a decent price from, for example, Pro-Cure Bait Scents. I don't know how much shipping will be, though. I have never seen pure nitrites at a retail outlet, only curing mixtures that contain some small percentage of nitrite. You could try testing those too, as long as you can get a kind that contains only inorganic salts. Those with sugar or flavors mixed in will interfere with the permanganate reaction.

Rich_Insane - 8-2-2010 at 18:41

Quote:

I've tried vinegar before to neutralize the mess left over. Nothing big happened. One time I scraped some of it off, placed it in a 250 ml beaker, added vinegar, dumped the vinegar, and added Acetone. The solution turned very milky, despite me getting rid of almost all the vinegar. Any indicator of anything?

[img] This is the nitrite production thread. There's a fair amount of nonsense in there, perhaps some of it written by me, as is usually the case with long threads. At least it shows that there are quite a few members interested in producing nitrites from nitrates. You would be titrating an aqueous solution of salts produced from high-temperature nitrate reduction, not the still-molten salt mixture. Take a look at Journal of the Society of Dyers and Colourists, Volume 7 starting on page 183. You want to read the article "The Estimation of Nitrous Acid in Sodium Nitrite." The author's suggested method of titrating a known quantity of warm, acid KMnO4 solution with a nitrite mixture is the one I would suggest you follow. It should be tolerably accurate and simple and the chemicals are easy to get.[/img]

Thanks. Do you have any recommendation of how I should store KMnO3, other than keeping it away from acids?

[Edited on 9-2-2010 by Rich_Insane]

Polverone - 8-2-2010 at 19:16

I don't think your milky mixture indicates anything in particular. The KMnO4 you get should be kept in whatever container it was sold in. The acidic solution that you use for titration should be kept in something that is resistant to oxidizers and acids alike. A glass bottle with a glass stopper would work. Some plastics might also work but I can't advise what.

Permanganate leaves brown MnO2 stains on anything oxidizable, like fabric, skin, and paper. You will want to have some ascorbic acid or metabisulfite solution to clean up the stains.

ScienceSquirrel - 9-2-2010 at 08:02

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone

I don't think your milky mixture indicates anything in particular. The KMnO4 you get should be kept in whatever container it was sold in. The acidic solution that you use for titration should be kept in something that is resistant to oxidizers and acids alike. A glass bottle with a glass stopper would work. Some plastics might also work but I can't advise what.

Permanganate leaves brown MnO2 stains on anything oxidizable, like fabric, skin, and paper. You will want to have some ascorbic acid or metabisulfite solution to clean up the stains.

In my opinion the best containers for almost all solid chemicals are HDPE jars with lids made of the same material. They are not as heavy as glass, light proof and do not shatter when dropped.

Rich_Insane - 9-2-2010 at 21:24

Ok, so I won't need anything Teflon coated at this point? I'm sure that that stuff can get expensive, so i want to be sure that I need some before I try to get any.