Sciencemadness Discussion Board - nutrient for yast

nutrient for yast

chief - 6-5-2010 at 04:24

Suppose someone would want to make ethanol by fermentation of sugar with yast ...
==> Input would be sugar-water ...
==> ... and a nutrient for the yast would be required ...

What about rice: Boiling rice for maybe 2 or 3 h in water ... might this be good enough ??

Don't tell me anyone to _buy_ or _obtain_ the special/expensive nutrients from yast-suppliers ...

What else household-stuuf would work ?

====================

When naturally the yast ferments wine or fruit it finds the necessary nutrients ion place ... ... only with crystal-sugar this is not the case ... ...

bquirky - 6-5-2010 at 04:42

ive heard some brewers chuck some bread into the fermenter

smuv - 6-5-2010 at 04:44

It's spelled yeast!

I've heard chucking in a little tomato paste. Really though if you want to learn to brew there is a wealth of information at one of the many forms devoted to brewing/distilling.

Eclectic - 6-5-2010 at 05:59

Molasses, pinch epsom salts....maybe a bit of urea and phosphate...Vegi
mite

12AX7 - 6-5-2010 at 06:39

Quote: Originally posted by Eclectic

Vegimite

Mmm, cannibalism.

hissingnoise - 6-5-2010 at 07:10

I always thought the sugar was sufficient nutrient. . .

Rich_Insane - 6-5-2010 at 08:56

Generally yeast can respire using sugars alone, hence fermentation. All living organisms need some nutrients like phosphates and nitrogen sources to survive. But not in significantly large quantities. I'd only add a maximum of 10 grams of salt in a large tank, a little yeast extract and phosphates. Really, all you need is tap water and sugar, because tap water itself has lots of minerals, but if you want healthy yeast, you need to give them a source to build proteins, hence why adding some yeast extract would be useful.

unionised - 6-5-2010 at 10:18

Fruit juice is kind of traditional.

ScienceSquirrel - 6-5-2010 at 13:01

The most efficient small scale approach to a seriously strong aqueous solution of alcohol is to use turbo yeast.
As I recall it is picky, requiring a strong sucrose solution that is preinverted, lots of nutrients and careful temperature control but it will turn out an up to 18% solution in under a week.
After that you need bentonite to clear plus charcoal filtration.
Distillation is illegal in most jurisdictions but one run, charcoal filtration plus another distillation and then dilution with spring water to an acceptable ABV produces a nice vodka.
The cost of the yeast and nutrients etc is small compared with the duty payable if the final product was bought in the shop :-)

Turbo Yeast And Fermaid-K

MadHatter - 6-5-2010 at 19:25

I suggest you U2U member Ramiel. He knows even more about this than I do.
IIRC, Turbo Yeast, is sold by various vendors under the name of "Eau De Vie".
Translated into English it means "Water Of Life". Don't quote me but I believe this
yeast is a highly activated, liquid, strain of EC-1118 champagne yeast.
Trust me when I say "IT KICKS ASS !". So does, KV-1116 and my personal
favorite, ALLTECH SUPERSTART. Any of these yeasts produce a relatively high ethanol
output. The SUPERSTART is a distillers' yeast, BTW.

Visit: http://crosby-baker.com
There are other websites that carry the SUPERSTART

Now, for yeast vitamins. Fermaid-K, although I'm not entirely sure is Diammonium Phosphate.
Yeast love this shit ! It doesn't even take very much. I've used as little as 2 tablespoons
in a 5 gallon mash. The effect this has during the fermentation process is very
noticeable. It's like crystal meth for yeast !

[Edited on 2010/5/7 by MadHatter]

Formatik - 6-5-2010 at 22:45

Here is one of those sites discussing nutrients: http://www.homedistiller.org/wash-sugar.htm

chief - 7-5-2010 at 02:49

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

Fruit juice is kind of traditional.

Yes, but the commercial fruit-juice withstands legths of time within the bottle or tetra-pack ...
==> ... so it's somehow treated with sulfur or other growth-inhibitors, which might prevent the yeast from developing ...

====================

The commercial nutrients are not a choice ... for idealistic reasons ...

Commercial yeast may be a good choice, there exist strains which run at low temperatures ...; I remember my grandfather making his wine with the yeast for baking ..., but temp had always to be above 20 [Cels] ...

====================

JohnWW - 7-5-2010 at 03:08

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel

(cut)
Distillation is illegal in most jurisdictions but one run, charcoal filtration plus another distillation and then dilution with spring water to an acceptable ABV produces a nice vodka. The cost of the yeast and nutrients etc is small compared with the duty payable if the final product was bought in the shop.

Distillation to produce alcoholic spirits is legal in New Zealand, and there are shops here that sell distillation (as well as brewing and vintning) equipment for the purpose. But $ELLING the product to other parties attracts a hefty excise duty as well as G$T, and commercial sales have to be conducted through Customs which collects the excise duty, which is based on the alcohol content, and which increases substantially for alcohol concentrations in sold booze above 14%.

chief - 7-5-2010 at 03:23

I wonder if there are loopholes in the legislation: Maybe a way of concentrating the C2H5OH can be found which circumvents the paragraphs ...

not_important - 7-5-2010 at 03:28

Well, you've then limited yourself to lower alcohol content and a higher possibility of wild yeast or bacterial contamination. For high production nitrogen and phosphate are the most likely limiting factors, especially if the water you use isn't really soft and thus supplies other minerals. Might be able to use urea for nitrogen, TSP for phosphate, but then you'll need to dink with the pH more.

DAP isn't very expensive

I suspect you could get away with using ordinary B vitamin supplements to help growth, it doesn't take much. Or use Marmite, Vegemite, Promite, or Cenovis; they do have a lot of salt in them though.

Why is a low temperature strain important?

JohnWW - 7-5-2010 at 03:30

As an alternative to distillation of an aqueous solution of ethanol obtaining by alcoholic fermentation, you could also try freezing the mixture, as ethanol has a much lower melting-point than water. HOWEVER, as the water freezes out of the mixture as pure ice, the fusel oil (higher alcohols, mainly propyl, butyl, and especially amyl alcohols, which are much more toxic than ethanol), and other solute impurities such as sugars and potassium salts, become concentrated in the ethanol.

chief - 7-5-2010 at 03:40

Low temperature-strain: As I recall my own fermentation-experiments when I was 15 the fermentation sets in from 18 or 19 [Cels], _significantly_ increrasing with the next several degrees ...

Also I read the book on the subject which my grandfather had: 20 [Cels] are the minimum for any ordinary yeast ...

So a low temp-strain would allow the careless fermentation without temp-regulation ... ...

=========================

As far as it went on here now I would bet on bread or cooked rice as solution ...; maybe also peas or beans ... : All of this contains phosphates, and some nitrogen ...

Also rice is the fastest thing in the kitchen to catch a fermentation: In summer 8 h may be sufficient to make something un-edible ...: That's what makes me guess it's one of the best nutrients; also it's abundant and cheap ...

=========================

As for the other alcohols: _Interesting_ ... !
==> Maybe if the yeast is fed differently the products will vary ... ... ? What about fermenting pea-soup-solution or rice-soup ?
==> With milk I heared it will give even butanole or butanic acid ... ...

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by chief]

not_important - 7-5-2010 at 04:13

Brewers or distillers yeast generally can not eat the complex carbohydrates making up starchy food. Sake is made by inoculating cooked rice with koji, a fungus different than yeast that can break down the starches into surgars; after that yeast is added. This holds for most alcohol brewing that doesn't start with simple sugars, there is a preliminary step that uses fungus or bacteria to convert starch to sugar; writings on bioethanol production will give you much information.

The protein content of typical grains and of legumes is much higher than needed by the yeast, and has a similar problem to the starches - the proteins need to be broken down to amino acids and/or inorganic nitrogen compounds before being really useful to the yeast.

Yeast pretty much makes ethanol. The acetone-butanol-ethanol fermentation of the earlier 20th century uses the bacteria Clostridium acetobutylicum isolated by Weizmann; earlier attempts with other bacteria had much too low yields to be useful.

Yeast will produce larger amounts of higher alcohols - fusal oil when the fermentation is outside of optimal conditions. Their concentration never gets very high, though.

One type of bacteria can ferment sugar tp lactic acid, from there another bacteria will produce butyric acid; other bacteria can produce propionic acid. With milk the lactose - milk sugar - is converted to lactic acid and then to other acids.

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by not_important]

JohnWW - 7-5-2010 at 05:02

That being the case, with higher alcohols able to be produced by several methods of fermentation, Not_Important, I wonder if there is any yeast or bacterium that can be used to convert any sugars or starches to 1,4-butanediol. This diol, usually made synthetically via 1,4-dichlorobutane, is important as an industrial solvent (being less volatile than ethanol or isopropanol), and can be used to make polyesters or polyamides as plastics or fibers. It is also a much-sought-after harmless recreational drug, with effects similar to ethanol, but it has been recently banned by propaganda-driven stupid "nanny state" legislation in my country and no doubt several others. (Are there any countries in which it is still legal?). If there is a simple biochemical fermentation way to produce this diol, using easily available sugars or starches and yeasts or bacteria, it would make nonsense of any such legal ban.

not_important - 7-5-2010 at 08:39

From September 2008

Quote:

Its first product is a bacteria tuned to turn sugar during fermentation into 1,4 Butanediol (BDO), a chemical used as an additive to textiles and car bumpers. The company expects to have its first customer next year.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10043124-54.html

However consider that an almost weed-like plant yields THC and relatives as well as industrial fiber, several cactus mescaline, a number of fungi give psilocybin, and so on, the legal bans on those substances seem to have remained in effect. Indeed, a number of sexual activities between two or more humans are banned in a number of countries, and such activities are at least potentially difficult to detect and stop. In many countries in Africa homosexual actions are punishable by years in jail on up to death, while most of the United States bans commercialised sexual activity, spending thousands of dollars per arrest; note that it is generally women that are arrested on the assumption that sniveling weak-willed men can't be expected to control themselves.

So if all that stuff is illegal, I don't see much change of change for 1,4-dichlorobutane. Expensive licensing to own the bacteria and to is it in production, consumption remaining illegal, easy ways to keep it unavailable.

densest - 7-5-2010 at 14:15

First, unless absolutely forced to, don't use baking yeast. If you absolutely cannot get brewing yeast for some reason, find a grape vine which has not been sprayed and crush the very ripe grapes without washing them. Try this a number of times in small (250ml) batches. If kept in the dark in a warmish (15-20C) place, one or more will ferment and taste good. That yeast wants about twice to three times as much sugar as a beer yeast - check the specific gravity of the unfermented grape juice and more-or-less match that.

There are hundreds (at least) of strains of brewing & winemaking yeasts available to the amateur. Some quite usable ones cost $0.50 to $1 a packet, sufficient for a batch. Better ones are in a liquid medium and cost $5-8 a package or tube. The dry packets are very light and can be shipped without any special handling.

If your equipment, water, & nutrients are sterile and kept clean, you can take a liter (more or less) of the yeast cake from a rapidly fermenting batch and add it to a new batch. Some commercial breweries do this hundreds or thousands of times, some only use yeast five or ten times. Check how the result tastes and discard if it doesn't taste right.

Wyeast Brewer's Choice yeast nutrient is $2.25 for 45g, enough for 15-20 19L/5gal batches. It is designed by a major yeast culture manufacturer. If you want to make 200l or 1000l batches, it's also sold in much larger bottles for much less per gram. It's not worth it using random nutrients unless you're deliberately starving or oversupplying nutrients to change the flavor profile or growth parameters. Most online and bricks-and-mortar brewing supply stores carry it or something very like it.

The output of "turbo yeast" strains is usually less tasty than a traditional one. Super/turbo yeasts are designed for industrial alcohol production (fuel, etc.) not for drinking. They are used when the energy cost of distillation versus sale price is important. For drinkies, the relative cost of distilling a 5% vs a 20% solution is pretty negligible. Optimal production from turbo yeast requires strict control of all the environmental parameters.

Lager beer yeast works down to 5C or less. Most brewing yeasts don't do well over 25C or so. Some strains of Schizosaccharomyces pombe work well up to 35C but don't do well when cool.

There are many, many books on making distilled liquors - when was the retort invented?

Almost any online vendor of brewing or winemaking supplies also has books. You can easily make a batch or two by reading a little online stuff and hearsay, but if you want to make anything consistently and with a good flavor, the information density of books is unrivaled.

Lege, lege, ora, et relege.... I pray to Bacchus & Dionysus at those times.

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by densest]

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by densest]

FrankRizzo - 7-5-2010 at 16:39

A very cheap source of nutrients for yeast is their dead counterparts. If you boil a package of bakers yeast to kill it, then add it to your fermentation, the active yeast strain will use the dead yeast as nutrient.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13163

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=8923...

http://www.brewingkb.com/homebrewing/yeast-nutrient-has-ammo...

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/starter-yeast-nutrient-75741...

unionised - 8-5-2010 at 13:05

Quote: Originally posted by chief

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

Fruit juice is kind of traditional.

I have fermented tetrapaked fruit juices- they work just fine. they have a long shelf life because they are sterile when packed.