Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Why was Anders Hoveland banned?

mewrox99 - 16-7-2010 at 02:32

His posts seemed quite interesting.

Just curious on why he got banned?

Offtopic: What is the whimsy board

hissingnoise - 16-7-2010 at 03:18

Quote:
Just curious on why he got banned?

Me too. . .

Mewrox, you must request a password from a mod to access whimsy.

And the correct English spelling of "sulphur" is sulphur. . .
If you spell it any other way, you're misspelling it!

mewrox99 - 16-7-2010 at 03:25

Offtopic:
Not according to the International Union of Pure & Applied Chemistry

hissingnoise - 16-7-2010 at 03:49

England and America are two countries separated by a common language, according to the great George Bernard Shaw. . .

gnitseretni - 16-7-2010 at 03:59

I think this is why..

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14140#...

hissingnoise - 16-7-2010 at 04:19

Banning for one ill-thought out post seems a bit severe. . .
A temporary banning, perhaps?

gnitseretni - 16-7-2010 at 06:49

Well, they gave him a special status, so I think one of the mods was getting a little annoyed by his posts or whatever, so maybe this was like a last straw kinda thing.

bbartlog - 16-7-2010 at 07:07

Yes, pretty sure it was the abovementioned Anarchist Cookbook thread that triggered it. But actually I've come to believe that his entire persona here was just an elaborate troll. Possibly one of the mods reached the same conclusion. It sure wasn't 'one ill-thought out post'; he had previously suggested experiments, with no disclaimer or warning, that would have been extremely dangerous to anyone who conducted them.

Polverone - 16-7-2010 at 07:49

He went on wild flights of fancy in 'theorizing' about synthetic possibilities. He was privately warned to make the difference between his theories and experiments clearer, and to provide some sort of literature support for the theories, but he kept it pretty hazy up until the end. When he described practical work that he had allegedly done it was so uncontrolled and absurd it did seem like an elaborate troll; see his "Furozan Attempt using NH2OH" thread.

This is Moonmonster without the funny turns of phrase (search the board for his posts if you were not around back in the Moonmonster days).

He was warned repeatedly in private, got a custom title to warn himself and others, and the last straw was suggesting that the world needed another mad bomber manual, specially crafted so that even the laziest intellect can make explosives with kitchen ware.

JohnWW - 16-7-2010 at 10:27

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
He was privately warned to make the difference between his theories and experiments clearer, and to provide some sort of literature support for the theories, but he kept it pretty hazy up until the end. When he described practical work that he had allegedly done it was so uncontrolled and absurd it did seem like an elaborate troll; see his "Furozan Attempt using NH2OH" thread.(cut)
Was Anders Hoveland, convicted of being a troll, from Scandinavia, particularly Norway, in view of his name? Trolls are supposed to live in mountain caves and under bridges in that part of the world, especially Norway; but living in such places would make it hard for them to get internet access, and power for a computer. Perhaps they use a satellite internet service, and generate and store their own electricity by wind or hydro-power.

watson.fawkes - 16-7-2010 at 11:06

The listed email address for Anders Hoveland is "zircotitanium@msn.com" (at least as I write). This is the same address used for user "Voltforce" at 4hv.org and apparently one or more "Anders" at anarchistcookbook.com. There was a Voltforce here at SmDB years ago, who posted this gem:
Quote: Originally posted by Voltforce  
Azides are really interesting. I was going to synthesize lead azide, but the local chemical supplier shut down. Too bad (N3)2 can not exist! If it did exist, it would probably be an unstable poisonous gas.
Apparently lab non-work is not recent and the word "probably" has been in his vocabulary for a long time.

Vogelzang - 17-7-2010 at 08:20

Breaking the addiction to blowing things up.


xhead.gif - 59kB

The WiZard is In - 17-7-2010 at 08:30

Quote: Originally posted by Vogelzang  
Breaking the addiction to blowing things up.





Detonator.jpg - 338kB

Lambda-Eyde - 17-7-2010 at 21:05

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW  
Was Anders Hoveland, convicted of being a troll, from Scandinavia, particularly Norway, in view of his name? Trolls are supposed to live in mountain caves and under bridges in that part of the world, especially Norway; but living in such places would make it hard for them to get internet access, and power for a computer. Perhaps they use a satellite internet service, and generate and store their own electricity by wind or hydro-power.


I'm afraid he could be Norwegian. The name suggests it. I can assure you that the State of Norway takes no responsibility for the actions of Mr. Hoveland, and neither do I or any other Norwegian members of this fine discussion board.

Internet access is no problem, the Norwegian mobile internet company ice.net currently runs a TV commercial featuring a troll sitting in the Norwegian woods with a yellow laptop, texting away. :D Sadly, I couldn't find a picture of it for this thread.

gnitseretni - 18-7-2010 at 04:31

Looks like Mr Anders has a new username.. 'Reference'.

quicksilver - 18-7-2010 at 05:21

How can you tell that they are one in the same?




edit:

I hope folks realize how gentle the mods are here and how much of a screaming jerk one has to be to actually get banned.......It's fairly similar to 4hv.org. To see someone banned I would bet that they were warned repeatedly.....
The guy did say some seriously stupid shit; both scholastically & socially.
I hold a very special place for bigots (about two meters forward from the muzzle) & he did seem like he was going to launch into a classic tirade if he knew it was OK to do so..... The guy was actually incensed that anyone would suggest the sullying of pure Aryan blood with that of a chimp. Mein Got! What a fucking dolt. I doubt he's Norwegian however. They have a fairly decent school system & are mostly very proud of their Resistance to the Nazis during the Second World War (he DID sound like he was still in secondary school).



[Edited on 18-7-2010 by quicksilver]

hinz - 18-7-2010 at 06:36

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
How can you tell that they are one in the same?


Sure he's the same, he also uses the words probably and maybe, continues the treads of Hoveland and uses the same structure drawing software.
Quite obnoxious guy if you ask me, usually someone gets banned, he at least realizes why and stops doing this particular thing. Hoveland / Reference continues to post the same crap for which he was banned for.

The mods can see his IP, so they could look up weather he's really from Norway by using whois.

Instead of banning him, it would be more demotivating for him and safer for beginners (who might try them) if all his garbage fantasy posts are deleted.

[Edited on 18-7-2010 by hinz]

gnitseretni - 18-7-2010 at 07:29

In addition to what Hinz said, Reference posts at the same hours Anders did.. early in the morning. Plus he's new and already he's post whoring like Anders. This morning I checked Today's Posts and, just like with Anders, there were like ten threads in a row with the last post from Reference.

The WiZard is In - 18-7-2010 at 07:54

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  

I hold a very special place for bigots (about two meters forward from the muzzle)



A Narrative Of The Siege Of Delhi
With An Account Of The Mutiny At Ferozepore In 1857
Charles John Griffiths
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10856/10856.txt

_June 13_.--The morning of June 13 was fixed upon for the execution. A
gallows was erected on the plain to the north side of the fort, facing
the native bazaars, and at a distance of some 300 yards. On this two
sepoys were to be hanged, and at the same time their comrades in mutiny
were to be blown away from guns.

We paraded at daylight every man off duty, and, with the band playing,
marched to the place of execution, and drew up in line near the gallows
and opposite the native quarter.

Shortly after our arrival the European Light Field Battery, of six guns,
appeared on the scene, forming up on our left flank, and about twenty
yards in front of the Light Company.

The morning was close and sultry, not a cloud in the sky, and not a
breath of wind stirring; and I confess I felt sick with a suffocating
sense of horror when I reflected on the terrible sight I was about to
witness.

Soon the fourteen mutineers, under a strong escort of our men with fixed
bayonets, were seen moving from the fort. They advanced over the plain
at our rear, and drew up to the left front of, and at right angles to,
the battery of artillery.

I was standing at the extreme right of the line with the Grenadier
Company, and some distance from the guns; but I had provided myself with
a pair of strong glasses, and therefore saw all that followed clearly
and distinctly.

There was no unnecessary delay in the accomplishment of the tragedy. Two
of the wretched creatures were marched off to the gallows, and placed
with ropes round their necks on a raised platform under the beam.

The order was given for the guns to be loaded, and quick as thought the
European artillerymen placed a quarter charge of powder in each piece.
The guns were 9-pounders, the muzzles standing about 3 feet from the
ground.

During these awful preparations, I watched at intervals the faces of the
condemned men, but could detect no traces of fear or agitation in their
demeanour. The twelve stood two deep, six in front and six in the rear,
calm and undismayed, without uttering a word.

An officer came forward, and, by the Brigadier's order, read the
sentence of the court-martial, and at its conclusion the six men in
front, under escort, walked towards the battery.

There was a death-like silence over the scene at this time, and,
overcome with horror, my heart seemed almost to cease beating.

Arrived at the guns, the culprits were handed over to the artillerymen,
who, ready prepared with strong ropes in their hands, seized their
victims. Each of these, standing erect, was bound to a cannon and
tightly secured, with the small of the back covering the muzzle. And
then all at once the silence which reigned around was broken by the
oaths and yells of those about to die. These sounds were not uttered by
men afraid of death, for they showed the most stoical indifference,
but were the long-suppressed utterances of dying souls, who, in the
bitterness of their hearts, cursed those who had been instrumental
in condemning them to this shameful end. They one and all poured out
maledictions on our heads; and in their language, one most rich in
expletives, they exhausted the whole vocabulary.

Meanwhile the gunners stood with lighted port-fires, waiting for the
word of command to fire the guns and launch the sepoys into eternity.

These were still yelling and raining abuse, some even looking over their
shoulders and watching without emotion the port-fires, about to be
applied to the touch-holes, when the word "Fire!" sounded from the
officer in command, and part of the tragedy was at an end.

A thick cloud of smoke issued from the muzzles of the cannons, through
which were distinctly seen by several of us the black heads of the
victims, thrown many feet into the air.

While this tragic drama was enacting, the two sepoys to be hanged were
turned off the platform.

The artillerymen again loaded the guns, the six remaining prisoners,
cursing like their comrades, were bound to them, another discharge, and
then an execution, the like of which I hope never to see again, was
completed.

All this time a sickening, offensive smell pervaded the air, a stench
which only those who have been present at scenes such as these can
realize--the pungent odour of burnt human flesh.

The artillerymen had neglected putting up back-boards to their guns, so
that, horrible to relate, at each discharge the recoil threw back pieces
of burning flesh, bespattering the men and covering them with blood and
calcined remains.

A large concourse of natives from the bazaars and city had assembled in
front of the houses, facing the guns at a distance, as I said before, of
some 300 yards, to watch the execution. At the second discharge of the
cannon, and on looking before me, I noticed the ground torn up and earth
thrown a slight distance into the air more than 200 paces away. Almost
at the same time there was a commotion among the throng in front, some
running to and fro, while others ran off in the direction of the houses.
I called the attention of an officer who was standing by my side to this
strange and unaccountable phenomenon, and said, half joking: "Surely the
scattered limbs of the sepoys have not been carried so far?"

&c., &c.


Vogelzang - 18-7-2010 at 10:56

This explains a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15WMnBC8hxU&NR=1&feat...

Watch all 9 parts of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63y6WUg5nZ4&feature=relat...

Polverone - 18-7-2010 at 11:10

Reference is indeed a new Anders account. He has been banned too now. If he wants to register a third account there's nothing to stop him, but he'll be banned again if his behavior doesn't change.

Lambda-Eyde - 18-7-2010 at 12:25

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  

I doubt he's Norwegian however. They have a fairly decent school system & are mostly very proud of their Resistance to the Nazis during the Second World War (he DID sound like he was still in secondary school).

Yes and yes. But that doesn't mean that we don't have idiots and neo-nazis here. I am familiar with both.

-=HeX=- - 20-7-2010 at 10:24

Do not delete his posts yet. I, for one, find them interesting - only because theory is rather interesting.

He is now a member at www.shadowrx.com and is being a 'good member' in my section - the chem section. If you want to be rid of his posts here, could an administrator please archive them to .pdf files first and pass them along to me, so we can host them for academic interest?

The structures and such, while maybe unworkable, certainly are interesting as in the future they may become possible. Then, we will have this fella going 'I told ya so'
Who wants that to occur? Hell, two years back I thought Trinitro was the most nitrated toluene could possibly get! And I still like to draw out 'fantasy molecules' in my spare time, making sure all the bonding is correct and so on... it is fun and entertaining pursuit!

BTW, is there a backup of SMDB available? I am trying to locate backups of various sites. I have got a rather incomplete one of A0tu, one for E&W, and am looking to obtain some more.
We may be able to host a mirror or something in the future, as that will help if this bastion of fine knowledge ever does fall.

Kind regards,
Hex, and the rest of the SRX team.

Hoveland - 20-7-2010 at 14:04

I will not make any more speculative posts here.
I would like to point out that I did nothing wrong. My posts happened not to be liked by the administrator and a few others. I had sent an earlier message to Pulverone to this effect, but did not get a reply. After being initially banned, I refrained from making specualtive posts in the Energetics section, and only started one new topic, in the Organics section.
I can see that this forum does not value potentially useful ideas, even when the poster tries to reference as much as possible, and draw parallels with other reactions already scientifically documented.
I am still unsure as to what, exactly, was done wrong. When mistakes were pointed out, I tried to correct them. I did differentiate speculation from fact after being warned, and I quoted much literature that provided support for my theories, but the theories departed so much from the well trodden path of explored science that it was not possible to quote anything that would validate the theory, or provide much support. I assume that I need not quote references for any of the tautomers, which should be fairly basic organic knowledge.
While some of the experiments suggested were fairly dangerous, I do not think they were much more than the synthesis of NG. I did warn about the dangers, even once going so far as to give my dissaproval to someone that posted saying he was going to try one of them. Obviously, I did not want someone with no experience, and without appropriate equipment, trying to make Cl2O6 or Cl2O7.

I got one warning, then my "posting priveleges" were suspended, then finally I was banned. After each "punitive" measure, I tried to correct what I was allegedly doing wrong.
I suspect that the frequency of posts had something to do with it, although no one ever made such a complaint.

Although I am somewhat alarmed at some of the topics in Anarchist Cookbook forums, I feel there are many users that only have an interest in pyro mixtures, and do not have a grudge against society. If they really did want to harm others, they would likely get hold of an automatic gun, or make poison gas, as these would do much more harm than any bomb can. Also, the types of energetic compounds suggested can not easily be scaled up by someone with litttle knowledge of chemistry. The people at Anarchist cookbook already know how to make TNT and NG. If they only wanted to harm others, why would they go to all the trouble of a much harder synthesis to make something less familiar? A pipebomb filled with blackpowder and nails would cause much more harm than 40g of HMX for example.
It just happens that the name "Anarchist cookbook" happens to be well known amongst young adults. Using this as a title might be a way to reach them, as they probably are not familiar where to search to find a high quality energetic compound discussion.
I do not consider any of the posts made "post whoring".
I feel the ideas have a chance of offering something valuable or, at least, intellectually stimulating.

As to the "racist" accusations, I have concern of the rights and well being of all creatures, both human and non-human, and am well aware of the unfair economic oppression that many people face, including minorities. One of my beliefs is that after great economic equality is achieved, there will be less concern over discrimination based on race, because it will have minimal economic impact at that point. Obviously, at this time, racial discrimination would be economically devestating to minorities. And I think that, in many casese, educational discrimination is just as bad as racial discrimination, but few people seem to make that connection. Often, educational attainment has little relevance on the ability to perform a job.

I do not currently reside in Denmark. I am sure I had some time previous relative who migrated accross the Skagerrak.
There is a very strong neo-Nazi presence in Scandinavia, despite the widespread resentment about the occupation.
I read in the paper here that people marched through Cobenhavns streets with svastikas, wanting the muslims to get out, something I would never consider doing. The irony is much.



[Edited on 21-7-2010 by Hoveland]

len1 - 20-7-2010 at 14:38

You were banned because you were cluttering the forum with rubbish, with a hint of troll

entropy51 - 20-7-2010 at 16:31

Quote: Originally posted by Hoveland  

It just happens that the name "Anarchist cookbook" happens to be well known amongst young adults. Using this as a title might be a way to reach them, as they probably are not familiar where to search to find a high quality energetic compound discussion.
Do we really want to reach those idiots whose only connection to chemisty is the "Anarchist Cookbook"?
Quote: Originally posted by Hoveland  
Can you respect my opinion that there should be racial segregation, so long as it does not increase economic oppression?
As one of those minorities you would like to oppress, I don't friggin respect anything about you, you piece of shit. How dare you tell me about economic oppression? God bless Polverone for banning you.

psychokinetic - 20-7-2010 at 17:16

"Why was Anders Hoveland Banned?"


Oh jolly. See, I go offline for a couple of weeks and ALL the fun stuff happens.

Hoveland - 20-7-2010 at 17:18

I do not wish to oppress any minorities. I just beleive that people are generally happier living amongst other people that are culturally similar to themselves, and similar in appearance. And I realize that this is already happening to some extent and is one of many causes of economic inequality. I said that was unfair, and that I was not in favor of implementing any such changes until the secondary effects could be eliminated. Why do you have such a problem with that?

It is not that I hate other people. I just do not like the effects of crowding: noise, pollution, long lines, high costs of living. If I do have to be crowded with other people, I would prefer that those people be of the same race.

And unless you are a vegetarian, I believe you are a hypocrite. You think animals do not deserve any better than to be imprisoned, tortured, and finally eaten, but somehow you are offended that someone else would want to treat you just a little tiny ammount differently, even though this other person wants you to have rights which you currently do not enjoy?
I do not want to make you angy, but I am expressing my beliefs; and I can tell you there is a big portion of other people who simply plain dislike minorities, but keep quiet about it, for fear of the type of outbursts and lebeling you are making.

I would also hope that the administrators would not count my supposed "racism" against me. It is ignorant to go to great lengths to try to appease other people that are easily offended. It is fairly likely that any suggestion from someone that people be treated differently because of their race, will immediately label the originator as "bad","offensive",or "uncaring".
I would hope this is not the case.

entropy51, it seems you are behaving as the "troll" at this time.

If I am incorrect in my opinion, then, by all means, explain to my why I should think differently. I am quite open to changing opinions after discussions that present strong evidence. As I have stated, I have concern for ALL creatures.

I have no intention of causing any disturbance on this forum, or annoying, or intentionally offending anyone.


[Edited on 21-7-2010 by Hoveland]

entropy51 - 20-7-2010 at 17:23

Quote: Originally posted by Hoveland  
I do not wish to oppress any minorities. I simply want them to live in a different neigborhood.
Piece of shit and a troll to boot! Truth be told, I doubt that you can afford to live in my neighborhood, so don't lose any sleep over it Goldie Locks.

watson.fawkes - 20-7-2010 at 17:26

Quote: Originally posted by Hoveland  
I can see that this forum does not value potentially useful ideas [...]
I value potentially useful ideas. It's just that I didn't see any in what you posted.

Reality is knocking. Are you going to answer the door?

psychokinetic - 20-7-2010 at 17:28

Quote: Originally posted by Hoveland  
It is ignorant to go to great lengths to try to appease other groups that are easily offended. It is fairly likely that any suggestion from someone that people be treated differently because of their race, will immediately label the originator as "bad","offensive",or "uncaring".]


Yes, but you aren't helping.

entropy51 - 20-7-2010 at 17:30

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Anders!

Anders who?

And ders a troll at your door.:o

psychokinetic - 20-7-2010 at 17:33

*puts entropy in the PUNishment box*

anotheronebitesthedust - 20-7-2010 at 19:32

Quote:
I just beleive that people are generally happier living amongst other people that are culturally similar to themselves
This may be true in some cases but in today's day and age, especially in larger cities, culture has little to do with race. People tend to hang out with other people who share their interests regardless of race. Take the field of chemistry for example, if one chemist doesn't like another chemist simply because they are a different race that is called 'racism.' That is what you are Anders! But this is not necessarily a bad thing because there are other racists in the world. And we need people like you in the world to laugh at and critisize. All you need to do is find these other racists and share your common interests in racism-based activities, such as nigger hunting and eating sand-nigger sandwiches. I suggest you use Google to look up discussion forums dedicated to racism and then maybe you will find happiness among 'other people that are culturally similar' to you.
Quote:
I just do not like the effects of crowding: noise, pollution, long lines, high costs of living.
Then don't live in a crowded place. The world isn't going to change for Anders Hoveland. You're nothing. You're like a little speck of dust on my butthole.
Quote:
You think animals do not deserve any better than to be imprisoned, tortured, and finally eaten
Well if I was a cow or a chicken then I might think that. But I'm a human so I must support the advancement of the human race which means imprisoning cows and chickens, torturing them and finally, eating them.
Quote:
I am expressing my beliefs
Most of the people here find your beliefs offensive. Go to a neo-Nazi discussion forum or some other type of discussion forum that is filled with people who have very low IQ's, closed minds, small brains, even smaller penises and are very angry about it.
Quote:
there is a big portion of other people who simply plain dislike minorities
No there isn't. Unless by big you mean 1 out of 5000. Yes I guess that is big considering that usually a mild form of retardation or dementia is a prerequisite to become racist.
Quote:
I would also hope that the administrators would not count my supposed "racism" against me.
Of course they will silly! Do you think if a pedophile came here touting the benefits of molesting children, that administrators are going to welcome that? Get real!
Quote:
It is ignorant to go to great lengths to try to appease other people that are easily offended.
Actually just the opposite. So far everybody thinks you're a troll and wants you gone. It would be ignorant to let you stay.
Quote:
I would hope this is not the case.
It is the case.
Quote:
explain to my why I should think differently. I am quite open to changing opinions
Anyone who hasn't figured it out by the time they reach adulthood, probably never will.
Quote:
I have no intention of causing any disturbance on this forum, or annoying, or intentionally offending anyone.
Well you have and you did. So make like Michael Jackson and beat it.

Polverone - 20-7-2010 at 20:00

Anders, if you want to participate in this forum and be taken seriously I suggest registering a new account under an innocuous name and breaking the posting habits that make people think you're trolling. If you can't learn from example or direct instruction what to do and what not to do, I suppose you can keep re-registering and getting banned until you grow tired of it.

This forum is not opposed to theoretical and novel energetic materials. If you want to see examples of past posters who have shared well-received theories and speculation about energetic materials, look up the posts of Engager or Philou Zrealone.

If instead you want to be banned as fast as possible, keep posting about racial segregation.

mewrox99 - 21-7-2010 at 03:25

LOL I think I now have a good understanding on why he was banned

bbartlog - 21-7-2010 at 05:38

Actually no; the I'm fairly sure the banning was entirely inspired by the content of the chemistry posts - not related to politics at all.
I share some of Anders' politics but recognize that this is not the place for such inflammatory discussions. The fact that some of the posts in Whimsy or Legal/Societal touch on politics does not mean that this is an appropriate venue for posting radical views.

IMO the basic problem was high-volume, low-quality wild speculation. Some of it dangerous. But I believe it was Polverone that banned him so if you want precise reasons refer to his posts or PM him.

quicksilver - 21-7-2010 at 08:32

Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog  
Actually no; the I'm fairly sure the banning was entirely inspired by the content of the chemistry posts - not related to politics at all.
I share some of Anders' politics but recognize that this is not the place for such inflammatory discussions. The fact that some of the posts in Whimsy or Legal/Societal touch on politics does not mean that this is an appropriate venue for posting radical views.

IMO the basic problem was high-volume, low-quality wild speculation. Some of it dangerous. But I believe it was Polverone that banned him so if you want precise reasons refer to his posts or PM him.




Low quality? How about factual inaccuracies (lies)

QUOTE:
"My local government wants to ban guns, but the truth is, it is only all the poor immigrants that are shooting each other, unintentionally prompting the wider government to take away more of the rights and freedoms of everyone else."

Or:
"I hear slaughterhouses in Nebraska, USA are worse than the hollocaust. Some animals get skinned and boiled alive. Would you rather be die a slow horrible death, or at least be eaten."

zed - 21-7-2010 at 13:04

The high volume and over-all worthlessness of his posts, caused me to quickly ignore them. Big waste of time to even read them.

The peril of such material, is that its massive accumulation crowds-out useful posts.

Kind of like a senatorial filibuster. Wherein the minority senators block the vote on legislation, by endlessly babbling-on about nothing. Reading from a phonebook is not an unknown tactic, and unless the filibuster is somehow circumvented.....the diversion goes on forever.



Oxydro - 21-7-2010 at 17:47

Quicksilver: Hoveland's comments about slaughterhouses are quite true (unlike most of his rubbish). This isn't the thread for it, but the things people will do to other creatures for the sake of their taste buds baffles, and saddens, me.

zed: Is the rule not that all they have to do is say they are filibustering? Babbling no longer required?

Sedit - 21-7-2010 at 20:25

Anyone that worrys about the culturing of cattle as a feed stock need to get there head screwed on a little tighter. This science, learn the food chain! We are advanced as we are as humans because we master the beast not give them a home in a four star hotel and hope there life is good.

Vegitarians are malnutritioned and look sickly because they are missing vital parts of there diet to appease a misguided belief that we should not eat meat.

Now if you excuse me I must go cook up a nice healthy steak on the grill and sin against all animal kind.

psychokinetic - 21-7-2010 at 23:04

I'm higher in the food chain, but I'd rather eat happy meat.

quicksilver - 22-7-2010 at 07:10

Quote: Originally posted by Oxydro  
Quicksilver: Hoveland's comments about slaughterhouses are quite true (unlike most of his rubbish). This isn't the thread for it, but the things people will do to other creatures for the sake of their taste buds baffles, and saddens, me.


I believe that you are aware that there are abuses of animals within slaughter-houses and that there are situations wherein animals suffer -- which I do not doubt.

But the statement he made was not only a gross generalization & an over simplification for the attempt at shock value. It is a statement of an issue that he knows NOTHING about.
Was he born and raised on a working ranch? Was he a 4H and FFA member? Did he raise cattle, sheep, pigs, etc to market them and understand the process (& abuses)?
NO. {Or he would not have made that statement; believe me.}
"I hear" Is not only an unsubstantiated method of making a generalization & sweeping statement, but it does a disservice to the issue as a whole.

Could you please show me substantiated & documented proof that the state of Nebraska has a pointed agenda to boil cattle alive and maintain a debauchery of cruelty as policy?

It doesn't exist; naturally. That's because in the childish way of framing the statement, the underpinnings of actual abuse are ruined.
Gross generalizations are indefensible and do an extreme disservice to any policy that could be changed for the better.


I do understand the heart-felt issues here. I am pointing out the problems of him framing them in a foolish context. I also do not enjoy seeing animals suffer. I understand the sentiment AND I understand the issues from a very powerful first-person perspective. IF I was going to address the issue so as to make a positive contribution I would not make generalizations and inaccuracies and I would not correlate the suffering of animals with the concept of genocide as state policy.

Let me explain a bit more so that you understand where I (& perhaps many others are coming from). There is a patten of childishness and lack of maturity to both his statements on science & social phenomenon. Should it be one post or three, it's really not a big deal should it stop there. But it was a constant theme.

On occasion bigot's & elitists believe their remarks are quite covert, yet when a pattern emerges they become quite transparent.
The cruelty to an animal is a shameful thing however the use of correlations to genocides or a holocaust is a backhanded slight toward those who may have reason to feel even more; as is the comparison to cattle, etc.
Not only did he offend people; he did a disservice toward the suffering of animals. The pathetic thing is that, so ingrained is his bigotry that he may not have seen the transparency of his elitist verbiage.
Some people do not have conversations. They do not listen when others speak. They simply wait their turn to talk. This has been a problem with a long history.






[Edited on 22-7-2010 by quicksilver]

turd - 22-7-2010 at 11:02

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Vegitarians are malnutritioned and look sickly [...]

Unfortunately not. :(

Sandmeyer - 22-7-2010 at 12:23

Didn't know that Sauron had a son...

hissingnoise - 22-7-2010 at 12:53

IIRC, he has a stepson but what has that to do with the appearance of malnourished Vegans?
As for Sauron himself, it'd be nice to see him resume posting. . .

zed - 22-7-2010 at 20:28

I gotta agree with you hissingnoise. Sauron was a hard worker, with a real interest in chemistry.

He used to heap abuse on people, but he could also heap-on helpfulness. He provided lots of good references, and he was a major asset.

Hopefully, he is in good health and his lack of posting corresponds with his being busy with other projects.

Sedit - 22-7-2010 at 21:04

Quote: Originally posted by turd  
Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Vegitarians are malnutritioned and look sickly [...]

Unfortunately not. :(


BS.

Without daily vitamine supliments they look like herion addicts with funky skin color and bags under there eyes. Meat is basis of human health else we would not have evolved the teeth to chew it.

There are theorys that those with overbites are a reminent of a past form of human that was mainly a root eater but its just that a theory. Homosapians need protien they can only get from meat. All else is just PETA dogma

[Edited on 23-7-2010 by Sedit]

Hoveland - 22-7-2010 at 23:29

I was referring to the book "Slaughterhouse: The Shocking Story of Greed, Neglect, and Inhumane Treatment Inside the U.S. Meat Industry" by Gail A. Eisnitz, which is available in many libraries; the book can be seen here:
http://www.amazon.com/Slaughterhouse-Shocking-Inhumane-Treat...

This book does happen to include hogs being boiled alive, and cows being skinned alive. The treatment of the poor human employees does not seem to be much better.

There are countless reports that abuse is widespread in the industry in the USA. Just one of them:
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations.aspx

I am sure it is somewhat debatable whether these are just frequent isolated incidences, or an industry-wide problem, but one thing that is less in doubt is that the people in the interior of North America are far less concerned with the well-being of animals than residents in the coastal cities.

Vegetarians are likely to be about as healthy as everyone else, but their diet-related problems are different. Instead of worrying about consuming too much fat and cholesterol, and not enough fiber, vegetarians can easily not get enough protein and have blood sugar problems if they simply eat what everyone else is eating minus the meat. When you hear of "vegetarians being healthier than the average person" this really refers to vegetarians that have adopted a diet of foods virtually forgoten in the late twentieth century (steamed greenbeans, chickpeas, sorghum, whole grain bread) and exotic health foods from various other cultures (tofu, amaranth, quinoa, seaweed, hemp seed)

quote by Zed: "The high volume and over-all worthlessness of his posts, caused me to quickly ignore them. Big waste of time to even read them. The peril of such material, is that its massive accumulation crowds-out useful posts."

Of course, I am dissappointed to hear this. Anyone who felt this way could have sent me a u2u, but I was unaware that this was such a problem, or that there were a significant number of people inconvenienced. I should have put all speculation into one topic, so that those not interested in the less substantiated ideas and unestablished energetic compounds could avoid what they do not wish to read.

quote by quicksilver: "There is a patten of childishness and lack of maturity to both his statements on science & social phenomenon. Should it be one post or three, it's really not a big deal should it stop there. But it was a constant theme"

I only count three posts that have any commentary on social phenomena, so presumably you would not have much of a problem with that one aspect at least?




[Edited on 23-7-2010 by Hoveland]

zed - 23-7-2010 at 01:38

Why was Anders Hoveland banned?

Well, he made over 200 posts in less than 30days.

Many were voluminous, and from what I could see, they lacked meaningful content.

His posts were completely atypical of the quality that members here usually produce.

I was bored rather than offended. And, I wondered what action(if any) Science Madness might have to take, to stem the flood of nonsense.

gardenvariety - 23-7-2010 at 06:29

I haven't been on here long enough to have read many of his posts, but the few I have read didn't seem to be high in content. Up until his most recent posts about making how-to explosive manuals for racial separatists, which sounds like a good reason for a ban to me.

turd - 23-7-2010 at 07:00

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  

BS.

Without daily vitamine supliments they look like herion addicts with funky skin color and bags under there eyes. Meat is basis of human health else we would not have evolved the teeth to chew it.

There are theorys that those with overbites are a reminent of a past form of human that was mainly a root eater but its just that a theory. Homosapians need protien they can only get from meat. All else is just PETA dogma

[Edited on 23-7-2010 by Sedit]

It's quite ironic that you accuse others of dogma, when you are the one arguing against reality. Vegetarians exist a few thousand years longer than PETA and everyone has his personal reasons. I'm vegetarian, I love food, I lack nothing, I eat too much and in consequence I'm overweight. I know other vegetarians and vegans with the same "problem" (if enjoying life can be considered a problem). So if the vegetarians you know look like heroin junkies, then the fact that they don't eat meat is not their problem. Maybe they don't know how to cook, have depressions or really are junkies.

Your argument about evolution is very weak, by the way. Just because the ability to eat meat once gave an evolutionary advantage (before agriculture, refrigeration and container ships) does not mean that eating meat is necessary.

PS: What I personally find totally ridiculous is people who eat pigs, cows and chickens but refuse to eat horse, dog or frog. I've tasted all three when I was still eating meat and IMHO horse is better than cow and frog much better than chicken. :)

Sedit - 23-7-2010 at 07:48

Im not attacking you personally in anyway at all but there is literature out that that I don't really feel like searching for showing that vegans do not get the requirements of proteins , vitamins, and fatty acids needed to prevent the body from over working itself.

I would eat horse although I always figured it would be rather tough due to there mussle structure and as for frog... something about slimey and tiny turns me off on that one. Perhaps a big giant frog that is skinned and nice and tender would be ok.

I don't feel the argument about evolution is weak at all. Omnivores evolved there teeth for this very use of eating meat and gathering the nutrition it contains. Even if they are reminisent of a time we NEEDED meat is it such a stretch to think that other parts of the body still contain this, in your views, a trait no longer needed. I feel if the teeth are still there then there is at lest one part of your body that still needs the nutriants they where evolved to intake.

What are the benifits in your eyes to not eating any meat? I can see many reasons for limiting meat intake of certine types but what is to be gained by eliminating it all together. As a vegan would you be willing to replace meat with insects, since that would be healthier then anything by far?

Random web image of vegans, weird ones at that who will not sleep with people that eat animals:P . Note the saddle bags under the eyes. This is typical of what I have seen from vegans, nothing personal just an observation of mine since I know many many vegans.


[Edited on 23-7-2010 by Sedit]

quicksilver - 23-7-2010 at 08:04

That picture is very bad for one's sexual appetite.....

Have we not said all we need to on this subject? Isn't it time we moved on?





EDIT:
I used to have a girlfriend who used a very cute expression. She used to say she "would not eat anything with a face".


[Edited on 24-7-2010 by quicksilver]

bbartlog - 23-7-2010 at 08:15

Yet to meet a vegan kid who didn't have awful teeth (brittle and cracked, generally). But veganism and vegetarianism are really two entirely different levels of difficulty in terms of managing to get fairly complete nutrition. Vegetarians (as usually defined) can still eat eggs, milk and butter - and eggs in particular have pretty much the same nutrients as meat. Putting together a vegan diet with enough zinc, B12, fat and so on ends up being a bit of a project - and likely not easy to stick with unless you're fairly disciplined.
Feasibility probably depends on your ancestry, too. I bet the average Tamil would do better on a vegetarian diet than an Inuit.

psychokinetic - 23-7-2010 at 13:26

They look like normal, aging, busy people. I'm only 23, eat meat, exercise... and I look worse than that.

I think the correlation goes the other way:

It's not veganism makes you scummy, it's more likely that scummy people will be vegan :P

anotheronebitesthedust - 23-7-2010 at 14:41

My friend is from a vegan family and has lost about half his teeth. Could just be genetics though, since I come from a family that has near perfect teeth. I don't even need to brush them, but the bad breath can get real nasty.

As for evolution, hunting (and making tools for hunting) was probably a very important prerequisite for a large brain.

Do whatever makes you happy. I just hate when vegans preach to me. Nothing they say will make me magically realize "Oh my god, meat is disgusting!" I come from a family that loves meat and eats it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. We also love vegetables.

When I was in France I ate frog legs and they taste like chicken. Expensive and not very filling.

JohnWW - 23-7-2010 at 18:11

That poor vegan, especially if he had been one from childhood, would have had severe and chronic deficiencies of calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, iron, sulfur, proteins, most trace elements (especially zinc, cobalt, copper, manganese, chromium, vanadium, molybdenum, iodine), and of all vitamins except vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and possibly E, so it is no wonder that he has such bad bones and teeth. He probably also has osteoporosis.

[Edited on 24-7-10 by JohnWW]

Sedit - 23-7-2010 at 18:29

Look, im not saying its impossible to be a vegan in these days in age. It is possible to stay healthy and not eat meat. Theres always sea weed and kelps of all kinds combined with a diet high in soy im sure you could accomplish the majority of your daily nutritional intake.

So surely its not impossible. It is however highly impractical. To put it into chemistry terms for all of us nerds its like attempting a total synthesis when we had a direct precursor on hand the whole time. Combining a vegan diet with the disipline many vegans have with a healthy amount of meat would be the ultimate picture of health without overworking the body.

turd - 23-7-2010 at 23:11

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  

What are the benifits in your eyes to not eating any meat? I can see many reasons for limiting meat intake of certine types but what is to be gained by eliminating it all together. As a vegan would you be willing to replace meat with insects, since that would be healthier then anything by far?

Weird question. The same benefits you get from not eating frog. I think it's disgusting (and insects are creepy). I reduced my meat intake over the years and was very happy with it. I spare you the details, it's long and not interesting. I'm not vegan and probably not even strictly vegetarian since I eat a good piece of cheese even though it has a little piece of cow stomach inside. But that little piece of cow stomach is certainly not the reason for me being well(/over)-fed.
BTW: I'm the only person I know without dental fillings. :)

The picture you posted are not random vegans, these are members of some crazy animal rights organisation (http://www.mindinganimals.com/index.php?option=com_content&a...), i.e. politicians. IMHO they look better than most other politicians in the 40-50 years range.

Sedit - 24-7-2010 at 07:47

Quote:
Weird question. The same benefits you get from not eating frog. I think it's disgusting (and insects are creepy).

Fair enough I guess.

As far as the randomness of the vegans in the photo. Yes it was random and they where some of the first clear images in goggle search when I typed it in. Just so happens they are complete loons and vegans. Its possiby and effect of what psychokinetic said
Quote:
It's not veganism makes you scummy, it's more likely that scummy people will be vegan

and I hope you dont take offense to this but it maybe that its easier for crazys to lean towards veganism.

Its simular to the drug users effect were in many cases the person would be fucked up even if they didn't take drugs but there personlity trait lead them down that path of being scummy and drugged up even though there are many drug users that are perfectly fine in there use yet it tends to attract the wrong kind of attention from the wrong kind of people.

People like those in the photos just seem to be attention whores and since veganism wasn't enough to get them noticed they had to resort of being crazy and vegan before they got there own web writeup about them. It even said in one part they don't have sex with meat eater because meat eaters are made up of parts of dead animals. Thats loony and illogical as it gets. Have they stopped to consider what makes up the plants they eat? We are all made up of dead animals no matter how you look at it.




Oxydro - 24-7-2010 at 11:32

Um, may I ask that a mod pull the veg(itari)an messages out of here and make a thread in whimsy?

Maybe it is easier for a crazy person to be vegan - if it means they care less about the self-serving bullshit criticism from others.

Anyone who thinks vegans are going to be deficient by default in anything does not know the facts. There are a very few nutrients that, to be sure of an adequate supply, certain of our foods are fortified with.

Protein - Most *vegans* I know eat too much protein. Never mind meat eaters and vegetarians. There is no valid excuse bar poverty to be not getting enough protein.

Calcium - a large percentage of the recommended calcium intake is due to loss of calcium from excessive animal protein consumption. It's not hard to get plenty.

The only vitamin worth worrying about is B12 - the rest we get plenty of - and it is present in large (well, large for a vitamin measured in micrograms, everything's relative) quantities in several products we eat.

I admit my girlfriend gets more zinc than I do.

I could go on, but essentially my point is - if you don't give a fuck about exploiting non-human animals, go ahead and do it. I won't attack you for it, not will I treat you differently because of it. Just understand that I think of you the way I think of the guy picking his nose on the bus. And don't pretend that its hard to be a healthy vegan. Years ago, it took a lot of effort, but now there are so many products aimed at us, that it really is no problem.



[Edited on 24-7-10 by Oxydro]

Magpie - 24-7-2010 at 11:34

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  

It even said in one part they don't have sex with meat eater because meat eaters are made up of parts of dead animals. Thats loony and illogical as it gets. Have they stopped to consider what makes up the plants they eat? We are all made up of dead animals no matter how you look at it.


This is the same type of silliness that we have been hearing for years about :

1. When imbibing water, it matters what you are drinking that has the water in it.

2. When eating sugar (sucrose, glucose, fructose) it matters what you are eating that contains this sugar.

I've always argued that H2O is H2O no matter where it comes from, and that this holds true for the named sugars also. Sucrose is broken down by the catalyst saliva into glucose and fructose in the mouth.

In regard to eating meat, I know a 64 year-old man that eats only wild meat that he obtains by hunting and fishing. He also gets walking and hiking exercise daily. He is at that age where periodic colonoscopy screening is recommended. His doctor said that he had the colon of a 25 year-old.

You can go further and say that we are all made up of stardust. (Carl Sagan)

hissingnoise - 24-7-2010 at 11:53

Quote:
His doctor said that he had the colon of a 25 year-old.

Innuendo?

psychokinetic - 24-7-2010 at 13:29

Oxydro: You've got to admit that food choices and eating lifestyles are FAR more interesting than Anders Hoveland.

bbartlog - 24-7-2010 at 14:25

And (apropos enough, since this is a chemistry forum...) don't forget old Owsley Stanley, LSD cook extraordinaire, who apparently has eaten nothing but meat, eggs, milk and cheese since 1956 or 1959; believing apparently that vegetables are toxic. Here's a picture of him at the age of 64: http://www.owndoc.com/uploads/bear-s.jpg
Not too bad looking for someone his age.
Quote:
Anyone who thinks vegans are going to be deficient by default in anything does not know the facts.


My observations are mostly empirical. Vegan kids, six of the six I've known (all age < 8), every one had terrible basically pathological teeth. I don't have a specific theory regarding deficiency, but something seems amiss. I might add that vegans will, by default, be deficient in vitamin B12; that's easily remedied, to be sure, but it makes your blanket statement false.
For those interested in a bigger dataset, I would suggest digging up the NHANES data - they have information on diet and health for large numbers of Americans. On a previous occasion, I crunched the numbers for NHANES III and found a very strong positive association between frequency of cheese consumption and self-reported dental health...

anotheronebitesthedust - 24-7-2010 at 16:38

Anyone who was raised on a vegan diet should seriously consider consulting an attorney and filing a civil suit against their parents for child abuse.

http://www.hugesettlements.com/Personal-Injury/3098.html
Quote:
The baby was diagnosed with severe malnutrition and rickets. Doctors considered it a terrible case of neglect. Nevertheless, the parents claimed that they thought the diet was the best for the girl.

Quote:
There have been studies that show that when women avoid animal food their babies are born small with a slow growth process and retarded. In these cases, the damage to the child begins in the womb and evolves as he/she is growing up.


I think that people who take part in the vegan lifestyle suffer from the same human behavioral weaknesses found in people who take part in religions. That is, the inability to think rationally or realistically, and the ability to take part in delusional fantasies in order to feel socially accepted.

entropy51 - 24-7-2010 at 17:49

Quote: Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust  
I think that people who take part in the vegan lifestyle suffer from the same human behavioral weaknesses found in people who take part in religions. That is, the inability to think rationally or realistically, and the ability to take part in delusional fantasies in order to feel socially accepted.
Man, I didn't fight my way to the top of the foodchain to be a vegetarian, but what the hell does religion have to do with it? Why take a gratuitous swipe at those who believe in a higher being just for the hell of it?

[Edited on 25-7-2010 by entropy51]

anotheronebitesthedust - 24-7-2010 at 19:17

Whoa man let's try to keep it civil eh! No reason to get all personal. :P

Sedit - 24-7-2010 at 20:32

I do have agreement with the idea of expecting mothers needing a blood meal so to speak. It happens all thoughout the animal and insect kingdom where even natural vegans will suddenly find the need for the protiens blood contains in order to support the added nutritional weight bearing a child requires. Take mosquitoes as an example where the males and females will feed on necture until its time to bear offspring at which point the become a pain in the ass if thats where it decides to bite you.

I know im going to here the argument that we are not mosquitoes but keep in mind this is a recurring pattern all thoughout nature.

turd - 25-7-2010 at 01:14

Quote: Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust  
I think that people who take part in the vegan lifestyle suffer from the same human behavioral weaknesses found in people who take part in religions. That is, the inability to think rationally or realistically, and the ability to take part in delusional fantasies in order to feel socially accepted.

Lol. You are right with your opinion on religion. But sorry to tell you, your rationalizing of meat intake has religious traits. Diet is something highly irrational and has always been. Otherwise we would eat the meat of road casualities and stag beetles that cross our path. Yuck.

Maybe everyone should consider facts instead of anecdotal evidence. The American Dietic Association writes (emphasis added):
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS
Appropriately planned vegetarian diets have been shown to be
healthful, nutritionally adequate, and beneficial in the preven-
tion and treatment of certain diseases. Vegetarian diets are
appropriate for all stages of the life cycle. There are many
reasons for the rising interest in vegetarianism. The number of
vegetarians in the United States and Canada is expected to
increase over the next decade. Dietetics professionals can as-
sist vegetarian clients by providing current, accurate informa-
tion about vegetarian nutrition, foods, and resources.

Source: http://www.lpda.pt/vegetarianismo/ada_dc_veg.pdf

Saying that all vegetarians are malnourished is like saying all meat eaters look like this:

I.e. Bullshit.

The_Davster - 25-7-2010 at 03:06

Quote: Originally posted by turd  


PS: What I personally find totally ridiculous is people who eat pigs, cows and chickens but refuse to eat horse, dog or frog. I've tasted all three when I was still eating meat and IMHO horse is better than cow and frog much better than chicken. :)


frog is by far the best tasting of the three. But comes in small sizes so it is as inefficient as eating chicken wings.
Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  

I would eat horse although I always figured it would be rather tough due to there mussle structure and as for frog... something about slimey and tiny turns me off on that one. Perhaps a big giant frog that is skinned and nice and tender would be ok.



The only cuts of horse I have eaten were tough, but that was because I bought the cheap cuts, I hear it can be quite tender.
Frog meat is not slimy at all.

Insects can be quite good if prepared properly, and make sure ants are dead, they can bite you in the back of the throat.
Quote: Originally posted by turd  
But sorry to tell you, your rationalizing of meat intake has religious traits. Diet is something highly irrational and has always been. Otherwise we would eat the meat of road casualities and stag beetles that cross our path. Yuck.


Eating human meat would cause diseases that were well documented in cannibalistic societies. Are stag beetles toxic? if not I would try them.

Yeah, I like eating pretty much everything. Except cauliflower. I cannot stand the taste.

peach - 25-7-2010 at 07:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9qgZls0sx4&feature=relat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhs9dH8i2Po&feature=relat...

[Edited on 25-7-2010 by peach]

Sedit - 25-7-2010 at 08:23

Yes peach the video is shocking but thats just because humans have turned into a bunch of pansys that cant handle the realitys of nature anymore. A lion kills a zebra and everyone watches on the nature channel but a human kills a cow and its atrocious.

Anyone who thinks that it was a horrible sight to watch and no longer wishes to eat meat because of it they must also stop using soap, perfumes, many medications, toothpaste, cosmetics, anything with Glycerin in it, stop eating jello, cut out Myristic Acid from there life and Stearic Acid while were at it. Many of the vitamines they take to compensate for the lack there of gotta go as well, anything that contains bone meal(such as the fertilizers they put on there vegies because even the vegitables know they need a little meat in there diet). The list could go on for hours and while much could be synthetic it boils down to practicality of supplying such a large population with these materials from synthetic and vegitable sources.

We are not barberians I would have to say that very little if any of the animals are wasted. Just be lucky we no longer live in the day where you would have to be the fellow cutting the necks of these animals to get all of the products you all take for granted.

TheOrbit - 25-7-2010 at 08:43

i want to ask one question only, why this post turns from banning of this users to discuss this problem, just wondering as i see new post every day in this thread.
:(

peach - 25-7-2010 at 08:43

I eat meat, despite being bitched at for an entire year I spent living with a hardcore vegan. Cooking meat, with the door closed, windows open and fan on would result in "Awwwww, it stinks of death in here! It's all over my clothes" being shouted from upstairs.

He once complained about the smell before he realized I was only boiling a pan of water; that my pasta was about to go in.

But I've seen more slaughter videos than most PETA members. There are some that are a lot nicer and others that are a lot worse.

I only posted them as I suspect a good number of meat eaters who shout about their opinions haven't actually watched these kinds of videos and seen how it is for a large percentage of the mass processed meat. If you can watch all those and still eat it, good. If you can work there and eat it, even better.

But ranting about vegans and vegetarians when your knowledge of the process extends to what gets put on TV is wrong, because even the more normal stuff (tamer than those videos, which aren't the worst) is considered too graphic for late night, warning equipped TV.

A significant quantity of the meat can't be stunned prior to bleeding for religious reasons. It's very often hung up while it's alive and in excessive, needless pain. The stunners routinely don't work properly or the animal is left too long before bleeding, allowing it to wake up.

The big commercial processors will do thousands or tens of thousands of animals per day. There isn't the time for a flowery, peaceful .308 through the head in the countryside. It needs churning through for the cheapest price possible, which means the conditions fall drastically short of how most people imagine it is.

I can now buy chicken that is almost a majority of injected water, to keep it succulent. And disease is rampant within the commercial farms. The chicken houses will have tens of thousands in each, and hundreds are killed because they fall down under the conditions and may become disease carriers or low yielders; the conditions are the absolute minimum required (minimum light / feed / heat / water / space). If sunlight enters the house in a none controlled manner, the battery chickens go mental and attack each other, so it has to be kept dim to keep them permanently sleepy. The litter can't be changed during the growth cycle, so it's saturated with urine and stinks of ammonia, to the extent that the birds end up with ammonia burns on their legs and skin.

I'm not an organic nut, but animals do need to be allowed to run around outside if only to make them taste better. 17 of them in a cage I wouldn't keep a pet rabbit in is too much. They don't need pampering, very simple things massively improve their apparent enjoyment of life, like hanging CD's from the roof of the house, for them to peck at and play with.

I eat meat, but I also get angry when I see people putting their half eaten Micky Dee's in the bin.

[Edited on 25-7-2010 by peach]

psychokinetic - 25-7-2010 at 16:46

Agreed with the Micky Dee's in the bin. Was that cow's life worth nothing?
But perhaps it's Micky dee's we should complain about, for making crap with once-living food.
Even their lettuce was once alive and has been turned into sludge (well, sometimes).

Vegetable rights! :P

Sedit - 25-7-2010 at 17:06

Quote:
Was that cow's life worth nothing?


No, not really when you look at it the way mother nature intended. We have breed an over abundance of cows. Nature makes them go away however it sees fit. You, me, the cow, none of that shit matters. People should worry more about how to take care of other people before worrying about the cow because we havn't even gotten that right yet.

psychokinetic - 26-7-2010 at 01:15

This is true, but the thrown away cow was only alive for food in the first place.

peach - 26-7-2010 at 02:11

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
People should worry more about how to take care of other people before worrying about the cow because we havn't even gotten that right yet.


Yep, that's something I noticed about my vegan 'friend'. He'd be a complete and utter prick to everyone, was massively spoilled by his family and government grants and had huge amounts of time to go searching for or prepare vegan food. He annoyed people so much with his nasty attitude, he literally had no one who wanted to be around him. There'd be constant awkward silences when people even mentioned him. He'd treat animals with more care than he'd treat people.

A funny facette about vegans is they deem it okay to retain, use and wear goods made from leather bought before 'the conversion' or that are donated afterwards, such as shoes.

I once pointed out, after seeing an RSPCA advert about a sad talking horse, that those adverts shouldn't be on TV until we no longer need RSPCC adverts. As the children are far more intelligent, and abused children will grow up to cost society exponentially more once their thoughts and feelings are set. He didn't agree with that.

The RSPCC ads have been taken off the air at times for suggesting the reality of what some children have to deal with, like sexual abuse, using actors and a few words.

Meanwhile, they use the voices of kids for sad puppies who want donations.

Absolutely rediculous, it really upsets me.

My mum used to teach in a primary school. I'd constantly be in with her to help, particularly on days out, and loved being around the kids. And then I'd look around at them, and I and the staff didn't just suspect but knew some of them were being abused, some of them sexually; because there'd be problems with social services and the police. This was a classy, high ratings, church based school also, not one of the really bad ones. And the kids were way below their teens, still wetting themselves and getting excited about being given a sticker. I understand why humans (who are animals themselves) find the innocence of children attractive, but the current society and how humans interact, behave and so on means that we don't belong with the animals anymore.

With regards to vegetable rights, here's Timothy McVeigh answering a letter a PETA member sent him;
Quote:
Truth is, I understand your cause - I've seen slaughter houses myself - but I still believe in reasonable taking and eating of game (as an outdoorsman and hunter)... I cannot sustain a prolonged intellectual debate on the subject as my time is short, but I'd suggest hitting Ted Kaczynski up for his opinions on the subject. [...] Where do you draw the line and what standard is used to define that line? Those that are in it for the health benefits accept poultry and fish as edible. Where do those opposed to suffering stand? (Ever see a fish struggling out of water?) What about grubs/worms/etc.? And finally, plants are alive too, they react to stimuli (including pain); have circulation systems, etc. So how about them?"




^^^Timmy don't give a fk what he's slaughterin'^^^

By a strange twist of fate, he was being executed as I sat in an English exam and one of the options was, "Write about the pressures on young people today".

I started;

"As I sit in this exam today, Timothy McVeigh is being executed..."

Zero revision, A*

[Edited on 26-7-2010 by peach]

turd - 26-7-2010 at 05:37

Yes and I know someone from this and that minority who is a total prick. Blah blah blah. This thread is so full of non sequitur and false dichotomy, it's a shame for a board with the word "science" in the name. :P

anotheronebitesthedust - 26-7-2010 at 06:11

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This thread is so full of non sequitur and false dichotomy
Hey put your wiki-thesaurus away! Don't worry turd next time you can use the word "illogical" and we'll still think you're smart.
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it's a shame for a board with the word "science" in the name. :P
Peach was just agreeing with Sedit's view that people should learn to treat other people respectfully before worrying about cows. It's not like he was putting together a report with official statistics on "vegans that are assholes" and submitting the findings to a scientific journal. Although I must say I'd be very interested in such a report.

turd - 26-7-2010 at 06:53

I wasn't commenting on peach's post in special, just on the mass of stereotypical blah-blah we get presented here. You know those aggressive vegans who want to convert everybody else and care about the cows but not their fellow men and blah and blah and blah. Ironically, the only aggressive people in this thread are from the "other camp", with all their untenable horror stories of the malnourished vegans/vegetarians. Maybe some kind of remorse after all?

And I meant exactly those two expressions. I don't see why you get so smug about it. Anyway, this starts to bore me to death, so you can now all proceed to pat your self on the back.

Have a nice day. :)

peach - 26-7-2010 at 07:25

Actually, this guy and his friend had a discussion in private about 'converting me', if that helps your statistics at all.

I don't recall making any sweeping statements about vegans or vegetarians, and I'm not just nitpicking to save my own intertitz reputation. I used to talk to him a lot about it, like how honey shouldn't beeeeeee in the vegan handbooks he had.

I keep bees. I can tell you for sure, they have a far, far, far happier life living in my hives, where I protect them from attack and let them roam around out in nature. I take honey from them, but I also feed them, keep the hive destroying mites out, give them a huge, easy to build home to live in, never squash one (and there can be hundreds of thousands in a hive) and they'll instictively produce a ton of the stuff as surplus without me having to do anything other than stack more space on top of their hive.

It's not like keeping cows pregnant for the milk. The bees do it automatically. And they'll make so much honey, and multiply to such a huge percentage, the queen will routinely leave the hive after a few years and call half the hive away with her, to find more space to keep all the stuff!

It's that kind of thing that bothers me about vegans. They assume that it's wrong or unfairly exploiting them because I'm gaining something from them (after putting a lot in and them producing it as surplus as part of their nature without my intervention).

I discuss this topic a lot on line. I've seen all the PETA videos and, as I say, probably a lot more of the nasty videos than their members have. I asked my vegan friend why so much of PETA's material is recycled and he had a fit on me. And these are people who are willing to physically terrorize the families of people delivering fuel to animal experimentation facilities. But won't go around all the slaughter houses with a camera to prove their point.

The reality (that they want to expound) is, their latest video is re-edited footage from their first videos. Even worse, in one they show an image of a cow that they link to cancer, then to another problem in their newest video; using identical footage.

They use hurrendously poor scientific arguements that boarder on just complete rubbish. Like "meat makes you fat". That's biochemically incorrect, as it requires more energy to digest than carbohydrate and so is economically, energetically, less worthwhile, as they also use in their arguments. They exclusively use images of older black guys in white coats in labs, with no reference to their scientific knowledge or qualification, little girls and hot legal girls in their latest video.

I know better than most people how horrible the process is. But resorting to that is like resorting to telling people meth is full of mercury and paintstripper, rather than just telling them the reality of how it ends up for meth addicts; which is far worse and perfectly realistic.

Show us the endless videos of mass torture, stunners not working, abuse and I think a lot more people would care. Fight the BBC, ITV and Channel 4 (or the US versions) and say you want to put it on TV. When they decline, contact the papers saying they all refused to show what you filmed in the slaughter houses and only that.

For as long as PETA continues with the emotional imagery, wording and manipulation, it'll never be taken seriously. Present the facts from a wide, up to date sample and nothing else.

I know the vast majority of meat eaters currently live in willful ignorance of how it works and won't watch even the tame videos. But the PETA tactics are like the religious fanatics'; they're not intelligently targeted and are ineffective. It's like the terrorists thinking bombing an underground station will make us believe in Islam. There are countless mountains of evidence to show how that method works in entirely the opposite direction, making people more convinced of their own opinions. Islamic terrorists do have a point to make, we are loosing the very base values to earn quick money via the media, to the detriment of society. But hurting people isn't the way to make that clear, and it certainly isn't effective.

I do think a lot of vegetarian and vegan food can be as tasty and nutritionally worthwhile as meat based food, or more so; the vegan I lived with could cook an amazing past sauce, and his cookbooks gave me a really tasty lasagna. Vegan burgers with some ketchup on them taste are as nice or better than normal burgers. I 100% agree that the majority of people don't eat enough fruit and veg. I also think vegetarian / vegan food is vastly overpriced. And I do think it requires more effort and more work to correctly balance it nutritionally. A wholesale vegetarian / vegan outlet with scientifically balanced, meat price competitive outputs would be good, and should be achievable as Soya and Myco protein are inherently cheaper to produce.

If meat is orders of magnitude more expensive to produce in terms of energy, why is it the same price or cheaper than the vegetarian / vegan burgers? Why aren't they 10p, and not £2.50?

I have spent a very long time considering these questions and I do care and may give up diary and meat eventually, but I'm not decided. Simple.

Better that than some play along rebel chump who jumps on the bandwagon because something initially upsets them. Those same people have been the long standing retarding factor of science. Penicillin = witch, animal testing = useless results.

The animal brain (ours included) is biochemically tuned and neurologically structured to seek out norms. The most revolutionary science is often the science that upsets the most people, because it doesn't fit into those boundaries.
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The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible.
Arthur C. Clarke

All life deserves respect for what it feels or may become. Animals feel pain, but plants respond to negative stimuli, as Timmy points out. The remaining factor is what it may become. We've already become that. And anything that can react (chemically or in a nuclear nature) may become that in time, as we formed from lightning in the atmosphere.

The line for vegans is the eyes and the sounds of an animal. In a way, making it more hypertical than a meat eater's point of view, as it says "so long as it doesn't complain, it's okay". It's like hitting mentally ill people and saying it's okay because they can't think very well and can't say anything about it.

If a vegan is going to lecture me on the ethics of life, I hope they're eating synthetically produced carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins, fats and minerals. All of which are currently available.

They don't.

[Edited on 26-7-2010 by peach]

Sedit - 26-7-2010 at 07:44

In all honesty turd you are the only one being aggressive and hostile in this thread for the most part. Others are expressive facts and opinions while your basicly flipping them off.

Yes I agree there is alot of sterotyping but these sterotypes do not form themselfs. Even if you do not fit he sterotype more often then not many do in most sterotyping cases.

As for my commnent that lead to this,
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You know those aggressive vegans who want to convert everybody else and care about the cows but not their fellow men and blah and blah and blah.


I dont say its jut vegans I say it dont matter at all. We don't care about or fellow man at all. Non of us show the respect thats really needed to them even though 10-100 thousand years(perhaps more if we are lucky) from now neither the cows species or our own are going to be here and yet im still pissed that my neighbors dog shit on my lawn and would like to pick it up and smear it all over the windsheild of his car.

Can you not think of a certine sterotype you know of which you judge on first sight even though you haven't really met them yet such as a slanty eyed china man or the scary black guy that dont take care of his kids, What if a flakey gay came up and told you he like your pants, would yo think hes hitting on you?

I know which one it is. The owner of the 7-11 down the street with the turbin and the dot. Hes on everyones radar right now because humans are just stupid creatures that are babys with swollen heads in the evolutionary sence.

With the forms of hostility that are shown over something as stupid as who wants meat and who don't, we don't stand a chance to last. My bias stands because I have never seen a cop throw blood on a PETA member yet they love to chuck buckets of blood and urin at the cops. Is this another sterotype? Yup but its there because it happens to often.

bbartlog - 26-7-2010 at 08:07

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with all their untenable horror stories of the malnourished vegans/vegetarians.


The only one slagging on the vegetarians is Sedit. As far as I can tell everyone else is commenting on a vegan diet.

I recommend http://www.lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm - written by an ex-vegan. And not someone who fell away from it because it was inconvenient or difficult or unpopular; she just realized it was unnatural, unhealthy and ultimately did not address the problems of human coexistence with other life.

anotheronebitesthedust - 26-7-2010 at 08:14

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I know the vast majority of meat eaters currently live in willful ignorance of how it works and won't watch even the tame videos.
I don't consider myself ignorant. I just don't want to lose my appetite by watching gory films while eating a big pile of ground beef. Do vegans watch close-up videos of Ted Nugent having a bowel movement when they eat mushrooms?
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even though 10-100 thousand years(perhaps more if we are lucky) from now neither the cows species or our own are going to be here
Hopefully in 100,000 years all the vegans will have evolved into deer hybrids that we can hunt to sustain us through Armageddon.

peach - 26-7-2010 at 08:24

Ironically, given that this is now about treating other forms of life with the same respect as we treat ourselves, I am coming to the opinion that there are humans alive who are effectively 'mutants' with regards to the others. This is continually displayed in lab results from other forms of life and is the driving force of evolution.

The driving force behind western society now is that science can answer everything, universal fairness is correct and the evolution is fact. Yet we also entirely disregard the primary fact of evolution, that it produces failures and superiors.

We're not throwing shit at each other anymore because one of us picked up a rock. And his son made an iPhone.

I would like to join forces with the vegans, in an ideal world, and break away from here.

There are species alive that'll survive irradiation orders of magnitude more than is needed to kill a human. There are prostitutes in Africa who are immune to AIDS. But we're all equal, they say.

I don't think I'm superior to other humans, but I'm certainly not blending in very well with them.

My personal belief is that it won't be too long before we find a way to interface at a cell by cell level with organic neurons. See; magneto encephalography. A holographic CD can already store 10 minutes plus of uncompressed spinal cord data, assuming each neuron is running at it's full bandwidth for it's entire duration.

Given the way human interpret data, compressing out the mundane, that is highly unlikely; see, MP3 (highly compressed, universally accepted as the best format). The fastest transistors can now compute at hundreds of GHz, whilst a synapse can manage ~1kHz. The reason computers haven't turned into sentient beings is that isn't what we've designed them to do so. We've made them to compute and do things we can't do, the exact opposite. And now they've vastly exceeded our biochemical methods. The millitary is already producing fuzzy logic networks of drones that will change their modes of flights as the parameters vary, in flight, on their own. I know the people writing the code for it.

It's on the way.

[Edited on 26-7-2010 by peach]

Sedit - 26-7-2010 at 08:24

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The only one slagging on the vegetarians is Sedit. As far as I can tell everyone else is commenting on a vegan diet.


Now, now this is simply not true, I hate everyone equally.

My comments where mearly about the nutritional defects vegans face as well and the unpracticality of the whole idea that eating meat is not good. There is belief that the ability to use fire and cook meat is what allowed the human brain to grow to the size it has today by supplying it with easy to break down protiens it could have not gotten thru other means. I find it odd that we have evolved thru eating meat yet propaganda has convinced many its bad for you.

peach - 26-7-2010 at 08:26

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  

Now, now this is simply not true, I hate everyone equally.


"THERE IS NO RACIAL BIGOTRY HERE. I DO NOT LOOK DOWN ON NIGGERS, KIKES, WOPS OR GREASERS! HERE, YOU ARE ALL EQUALLY WORTHLESS!"

turd - 26-7-2010 at 09:49

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
In all honesty turd you are the only one being aggressive and hostile in this thread for the most part.

I think you mistake ennui for aggressiveness. Aggressive would be telling you what to eat and why, which I didn't. Seriously, every word I type seems like a complete waste of energy since everybody is only interested in reinforcing their stereotypes. It's like trying to argue with old ladies who complain about those foreigners. Pointless. There's 2 million PETA members (probably most of them not even vegetarians), yet in India alone there is nearly half a billion vegeterians, and you keep acting as if these were the same thing. What's the point about discussing PETA, when there is no PETA member around? Blah, we're so good, they're so bad - that's what it is. BTW: Yes, I have my own stereotypes. I think that Christianity is a dangerous doomsday cult, but let's please not go into that.
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Others are expressive facts and opinions while your basicly flipping them off.

Oh really? You started the discussion by saying that vegetarians (or did you mean vegans?) are malnourished. I posted a paper from the AMA (which is not an organization of vegetarians) showing this not to be true. Sure there are vegetarians with eating disorder but I would bet a crate of beer that the ratio is not higher than in the group of non-vegetarians. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.

Last post in this thread, nothing to say anymore. Besides: Whimsy sucks donkey ass. :P

Sedit - 26-7-2010 at 10:10

I don't distinquish between the two. Vegan to me has always ment vegitarian and visa versa.

I act as though PETA and Vegans are the same because without PETAs scare tactics many people would have never become vegitarians. I do not discriminate against vergitarians but I honestly hate PETA.


Horrible parent but still malnutritioned.
http://www.hugesettlements.com/Personal-Injury/3098.html
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They fed her with herbal teas, fruit juices, soy drinks and flax seed oil instead of breast milk. Consequently the baby weighed only 10 pounds when she was 15 months. She had no teeth, a swollen abdomen and she was not able to sit or talk.

The baby was diagnosed with severe malnutrition and rickets. Doctors considered it a terrible case of neglect. Nevertheless, the parents claimed that they thought the diet was the best for the girl. Right now they are both on a trial that will lead them to 25 years in jail.


Do you disagree that the non feeding of brest milk is right because this just sounds insain to a cult like degree. Yes they are horrible parents an I think ithas alotmore to do with them then the veganism but non the lest there thought process is out of wack and they thought what they where doing was right the whole time there baby withered away.

I only solidly argue that we are not smarter then mother nature and these people think they are as do vegitarians as does anyone who crys fowl(get it) over animal rights. We are just a tool of nature not above it. If theres an adversion to meat there may be a reason for it in your body that comes out as a dislike such as how I can't stand sugar. But to not drink breast milk because it comes from an animal is nuts.

PS: Whimsy rocks!!! I get bord being serious all the time.



[Edited on 26-7-2010 by Sedit]

Polverone - 26-7-2010 at 11:58

I see that this thread long ago ceased to discuss Anders Hoveland.
For what it's worth (not much), I basically agree with turd.