Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Should I get rid of my H2SO4?

Should I get rid of my H2SO4?

mewrox99 - 9-8-2010 at 21:24

Currently I have 5Liters of Conc, sulfuric acid in my garage. It came supplied in a DG class HDPE bottle.

It is the one chemical I really don't feel comfortable using. It scares the hell out me, and I'm always worried while using it even though I wear good quality nitrile gloves.

I have 500mL in a HDPE bottle in my lab.

How much of a risk is the bulk storage of conc sulfuric acid. Should I just sell the 5L bottle and buy dilute.

Or am I just being over-lee scared. I'm only 14 btw.

anotheronebitesthedust - 9-8-2010 at 22:38

Paranoia...
As long as it is stored in glass, I'm sure if it's a 5-liter bottle it is heavy duty with a proper sealed lid and will last for 50+ years. Espescially if you say it's being stored in a garage where temps are usually cool. Acids in general are not something that should be stored in highly populated or high traffic areas.

If you can find 2 other glass reagent bottles specifically used for storing corrosive acids, you could divide them in half. But in all seriousness H2SO4 is left best alone, out of mind and out of sight in a cool dark area. It doesn't usually fume like HCl either.

However, disasters could arise if an uniformed person or child came along and dumped it or got contaminated, or if you had some other type of accident, but that goes without saying for anything.

Imagine, that much could last you ten years or more...and if it's creating negativity in your life simply from the nightmare thoughts of owning it, try selling 500ml or 1000ml lots of it as long as the packaging is in proper storing bottles.

anotheronebitesthedust - 9-8-2010 at 22:43

BTW I only use latex gloves with it. This may not be proper safety standard, but by the time I notice any latex being dissolved or burned, I'll know an accident has happened and take action immediately. I am super careful around it and have never had an issue after using well over 5 liters.

I've heard a lot more horror stories about Hydrofluoric acid...

anotheronebitesthedust - 9-8-2010 at 22:54

Also a good idea for dangerous chemicals is to have a safety plan mostly involving a 15-20 minute water wash or 30 minutes for eye contact (from what I remember).

But could a concentrated solution of Sodium Carbonate be placed in a spray bottle as well to combine with washing with water? I'm not an expert so don't want to give bad advice.

woelen - 9-8-2010 at 23:01

I agree with anotheronebitesthedust. Sulphuric acid does not give off any fumes and does not do any harm to the storage place when it is put in a closed bottle. It can be stored indefinitely. When I was 16, I purchased a glass bottle of 2.5 liters of sulphuric acid with a thick black cap and white plastic inlay. Now I am 44, and I still have that bottle. I refilled it once from other inferior bottles and it still is in perfect condition and I think it will be so for the next quarter of a century as well.

The only drawback of such a 5 liter bottle is its large weight and handling this may be cumbersome (and risky) if you are 14 years old. I would try to find a good 1 liter bottle and pour 800 ml or so of the acid into that 1 liter bottle. Use a CLEAN plastic funnel for this and put the 1 liter bottle in a plastic tray while doing so. Once you have the acid in a smaller bottle, use that as your working lot and put the remaing 4+ liters of sulphuric acid away and 'forget' about it for the next few years to come, until your working lot is used up.

mewrox99 - 9-8-2010 at 23:04

Ok. I'm gonna get a high quality glass bottle with secure lid to store the 500mL of acid.

I'll feel more comfortable having a glass bottle.

One thing about sulfuric acid, how long does it take to eat threw nitrile gloves

Ozonelabs - 10-8-2010 at 02:48

About 10-20 seconds. Normally though, you'll feel it warm up- the glove will blacken and after the time frame indicated the rubber becomes so thin that the slightest force will tear it. We did tests on our gloves, Sulphuric, Hydrochloric, Nitric, Perchloric, Oleum, Fuming Nitric, Thionyl Chloride, P- Halides and on and on- the Oleum and Sulphuric definately ate through most quickly.

Our gloves are Bodyguard Nitrile brand- and are highly reccomended!

Mr. Wizard - 10-8-2010 at 07:05

Store the bottle inside a 5 gallon poly bucket, the type they sell at the hardware store. Put a nice layer of the clay based cat litter in the bottom. Put the lid on loosely. Monitor for the next 20 years.

Magpie - 10-8-2010 at 08:01

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Wizard

Store the bottle inside a 5 gallon poly bucket, the type they sell at the hardware store. Put a nice layer of the clay based cat litter in the bottom. Put the lid on loosely. Monitor for the next 20 years.

I second this. I am a big believer in secondary containment for peace of mind. Put a warning sign with skull and crossed bones near it and check on it every few months.

The main thing that scares me about sulfuric is the possibility of splashing it into my eyes. If I get a little on my hand it is no big deal and I just walk over to the sink and wash it off. I have more fear of NaOH solutions and particles than I do sulfuric acid.

I have heard of the 2.5L reagent bottles breaking without apparent cause, just old age. But I don't have any information on this.

Ozonelabs - 10-8-2010 at 08:45

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

If I get a little on my hand it is no big deal and I just walk over to the sink and wash it off.

Quickly leading to thermal burns in addition to chemical ones...

Dab off Sulphuric first with a tissue then wash it off to avoid double burns.

Magpie - 10-8-2010 at 09:12

Quote: Originally posted by Ozonelabs

Dab off Sulphuric first with a tissue then wash it off to avoid double burns.

That's probably good advice. I should have said that I quickly walk over to the sink and wash it off. I've never noticed any burns.

bquirky - 10-8-2010 at 09:26

No keep your H2SO4

if you relly dont like it.. trying to get rid of it in a way you are 100% comfortable with will probobly cause you more headaches anyway

as far as i am aware it is actuality non toxic as long as you dont burn yourself with it

i think strong NAOH solutions are more dangerus in thisregard anyway.

but since no one has mentioned in this thread.

allways add the Acid to water not the other way around !!

and for crying out loud dont try to nutralise a strong basic solution with concentrated h2s04 (atleast without waring face protection)

Ozonelabs - 10-8-2010 at 12:30

Magpie- I was unclear; I ment to infer that the excess Sulphuric would exotherm with water from the tap on your hand, resulting in thermal burns. Because of its viscosity, it tends to stick to skin while it dilutes- hence it should be dabbed off before the skin is rinsed.

psychokinetic - 10-8-2010 at 13:03

Quote:

for peace of mind

Sometimes that's one of the big things; if you feel safer, you'll likely be safer. Of course it *could* go the other way and make you less safe around it, but I don't think you're an idiot mewrox.

mewrox99 - 10-8-2010 at 23:01

Thanks for the feedback.

I have decided to do the following:

Store the 500mL of sulfuric acid in a borosilicate glass reagent bottle with a screw top (instead of HDPE
Have a large quantity of baking soda near buy incase of accident.
Sell the 5 liter bottle of H2SO4 since it's way more than I need, and because I live in an earthquake zone I'll sleep better not having it,

What is the best kind of glove for H2SO4.

I have listed the 5L bottle (4.5Liters of H2SO4) on trademe. Buy now $35 NZD (Pick up only)

I am not gonna provide a link because that personally identifies me, but if you take a look you'll find mine

[Edited on 11-8-2010 by mewrox99]

cnidocyte - 15-8-2010 at 04:52

Whats so scary about H2SO4? Is it even any more dangerous that conc. HCl?

peach - 15-8-2010 at 05:55

The annoyances of conc. H2So4, by John;

0.) when it's hot (splashing, splattering and boiling on water addition), it'll emit some coughifity cough droplets into the local air, which rapidly clear and aren't much of a problem

1.) it will rot clean through your new clothes, which is why I tend to always wear the same things for a week at a time when I'm doing things involving chemicals like this; that's my excuse (but it doesn't apply for my three month old underpants, which could probably do with a wash in conc H2SO4 by now). The rotting, like sunburn, usually appears the next day, when you put the shirt back on and look like McClain from the end of Die Hard. Once I got used to imagining it as a super toxic poison (which it isn't) and one drop of it on me would be deadly, I managed to beat it into my mind so well that clothing rot is now not a problem. I still change my clothes to some crappy ones prior to opening the bottle.

2.) cold, over minutes sitting on your hands, it will leave them (temporarily) looking like they're five decades older later than night, until the top layer rebuilds and hydrates it's self. Hot or boiling, you have seconds to entirely wash it off and there'll probably still be a red mark or a blister. A 'bigger' problem in the more everyday sense is spilling some conc., wiping it up, and then (later) resting your elbows on the bench as you watch a reaction. I did this in secondary school and it took me a few minutes to realise why (days later) I had two pence sized blisters on my elbows. In terms of the burns you'll get if it's concentrated and hot, here's a photo of my knee. A drop splashed out and landed on me. I have a hosepipe beside me, in the garden, and was rinsing my leg off with it a second or two, for about a minute as fast as the hose would go. Still left a mark, which rapidly disappeared, but you can imagine you don't want this happening to your face. Temperature is an important issue, a lot of that mark will have been due to heat. Time is also a major factor. This took a second or less. But, as with a normal fire, each additional second produces very different results, as the damage rate is so fast. The two interact. I'll also include a picture of a girl who recently had cold conc acid thrown in her face, by her upset boyfriend. Because she couldn't wipe and rinse for at least a few minutes to ten minutes after having it thrown on her, it's severely burned her (despite being cold) due to the duration and the skin on our faces being very sensitive.

3.) It rots organic surfaces. Put your 'clean' glass back down in the kitchen or somewhere else in the home, return the next day to find a nasty, permanent burn mark from the dehydration.

4.) It's so concentrated, the glassware needs a very, very good rinse out to make sure it's all gone, as a drop of concentrate left in there could potentially ruin the next reaction it's used for.

I don't know why you'd want to store it in a glass bottle myself, the suppliers feel okay using HDPE and it's never shown any signs of damaging the plastic in my experience. But glass is extremely easy to smash.

I also use hot (near boiling) solutions of concentrated, room temperature saturated KOH for the washing up on a regular basis. Same problems really with regards to heat, stripping of oil from skin and the following 'old aged' wrinkled look.

Usually does a good job however.

I have gone through numerous pairs of latex, nitrile and marigold gloves doing the dishes (which is my term for, cleaning the glass). Hot, concentrated KOH and H2SO4 will rot the surface of marigolds off, but not the base, bulk layer. They'll eventually (usually not very long after) develop pinholes or nick and the base or acid will end up in the gloves, which is worse in some ways as you'll then not rinse it off (because it means taking them off). I started using the following recently, but even those are in need of replacement, as they seem to have a hole in one finger somewhere; likely from mechanical aberration. Gloves like these look like overkill. "I'm not dunking my arms in it!?", but that's not the point. Over an hour of intensive dish cleaning, a few drops will make there way down the cuffs and end up in there. Having the cuffs go up to your shoulders stops that. I prefer to do the dishes out on the grass, by the drain, with a hose beside me. That way, it's unlikely the glass will break if it slips out of the slippery, KOH covered gloves and I can rinse it incredibly well (and unblock the drain at the same time). If it splashes anywhere, that's no a big issue (the soil is basic anyway, so I've been pouring sulphuric onto it purposefully). When your dealing with flasks and other glass containing things like this, you have to quickly get into the habit of pointing the ports and openings away from your face as your rinse them (particularly with a spray gun on a hose) or add concentrated acid or base, or other materials.

Concentrated H2SO4 is now being slowly removed from the DIY stores here, after some stupid bitch poured it down the drain on her sink and then stared over the plughole (like it tells you not to do on the pack), receiving a plume of acid back in her face; giving her third degree burns.

Helpfully, the fan setting on the spray gun is great for doing the walls of the RBFs, and the nozzle is a near perfect fit in the B24's, so I can force the water through to churn the impacted shit back out.

[Edited on 15-8-2010 by peach]

Mr. Wizard - 15-8-2010 at 07:20

Quote: Originally posted by mewrox99

Thanks for the feedback.

I have decided to do the following:

Store the 500mL of sulfuric acid in a borosilicate glass reagent bottle with a screw top (instead of HDPE
Have a large quantity of baking soda near buy incase of accident.
Sell the 5 liter bottle of H2SO4 since it's way more than I need, and because I live in an earthquake zone I'll sleep better not having it,

What is the best kind of glove for H2SO4.

I have listed the 5L bottle (4.5Liters of H2SO4) on trademe. Buy now $35 NZD (Pick up only)

I am not gonna provide a link because that personally identifies me, but if you take a look you'll find mine

[Edited on 11-8-2010 by mewrox99]

You might consider what would happen to a mix of baking soda and sulphuric acid. It foams up tremendously. It will take huge amounts of baking soda to neutralize a given amount of acid, and it will foam up and spread all over the place. You might keep a little on hand to clean your hands or for first aid on very minor splashes. You are taking it out of a non breakable HDPE jug and putting it in a breakable glass jug, even though you 'live in an earthquake zone". At least put the jug into a plastic outer container such as a paint bucket. Nitrile gloves work for your situation. Double glove for extra safety.
http://www.ansellpro.com/download/Ansell_7thEditionChemicalR...

Edit: Even a used paint bucket from a construction site paint crew would work for this purpose, and they are often discarded because of the trouble it takes to clean them.

5 gallon bucket.jpeg - 2kB

[Edited on 15-8-2010 by Mr. Wizard]

[Edited on 15-8-2010 by Mr. Wizard]

peach - 15-8-2010 at 08:05

^^^I can boost your surety of Mr. Wizard's comments by saying I concur, and routinely handle it and KOH, concentrated and hot or boiling. Particularly the bit about baking soda.^^^

mewrox99 - 16-8-2010 at 21:14

I won't store the big lot of NaHCO3 next to the acid. I just planned on using it to clean up the bench.

I've all ready ordered the big glass bottle which was expensive, so I'll store the bottle in a plastic paint container with bentonite at the bottom

peach - 17-8-2010 at 03:52

Quote: Originally posted by mewrox99

I won't store the big lot of NaHCO3 next to the acid. I just planned on using it to clean up the bench.

I've all ready ordered the big glass bottle which was expensive, so I'll store the bottle in a plastic paint container with bentonite at the bottom

You could just eBay the big bottle or use it for something else; e.g. a solvent that'll melt a plastic bottle (although, most of mine come from chemical suppliers in plastic bottles and are fine).

For cleaning up concentrated H2SO4, something like dilute to moderately strong NaOH or KOH is the best I find. Anything weaker takes forever, because the acid is so very strong by comparison. And vice versa is true for base spills.

However! Quite often I'll end up with something like some KOH on my hands as I wash the glass up. Rinsing them under the tap and rubbing them together, they'll still feel slippery ages later. Thats were a sprinkle of vinegar helps, as you'll have been able to rinse away most of the material and the dilute acid won't end up doing the same thing to my hands but in reverse.

Spilling cold conc H2SO4 and strong KOH on your hands and arms won't instantly dissolve them, it's more of an annoyance for me. When it's hot, it starts getting worse, and your face is the worst place for them to end up; so a $5 face shield is a great idea if you're not confident with them (you will be after a few 1-2h dish washing sessions with it).

Never point the openings towards you, never stare into the ports.

[Edited on 17-8-2010 by peach]

Rich_Insane - 17-8-2010 at 19:47

Storage isn't what I would be afraid of. As long as you have it in a glass container that isn't on the edge of a shelf (imagine 5 Liters of conc H2SO4 on your head......). Sulfuric acid doesn't fume at STP. A lot of people like to freak out and exaggerate when they hear about sulfuric acid. It's pretty nasty, but you won't have a permanent burn on your skin if you get a little splash on your elbow and seek the sink quickly. Concentrated HCl is more of a worry. I have a little bottle of not even concentrated HCl (6 Molars) on my bench at work, and the vapors of HCl condense all over the cap. Now provided I work in a microbiology lab so we don't stock really great stoppered-Teflon coated bottles of course, that gets annoying.

I'm more afraid of pouring and transferring the acid. I have terrible tremors. I'm fairly sure that you're simply storing the 5 L as a stock, because it's a lot more hazardous to spill a whole bunch of H2SO4 from a jug of H2SO4 than a plastic bottle. Of course, it's standard procedure to keep the reagents in smaller bottles, unless you pipette out the reagent. Just keep that stock bottle in a really safe place. It's more harmful to un-knowing people who come across it than it is to you.

anotheronebitesthedust - 17-8-2010 at 21:28

The HDPE bucket idea is best. They sell them at hardware stores for $5 or so. Then whenever you need some just use a glass pipette. If you need to pour out a larger quantity then make sure you take everybody's safety advice here. And have parental supervision.

mewrox99 - 18-8-2010 at 18:37

I have the H2SO4 in a 500mL working container that is currently is HDPE but I have ordered a glass one.

Is HDPE the best material or should I use glass?

Most of the time I only use <10mL amounts of H2SO4 so I pipette it.

The big bottle is in a cabinet in my garage and is almost never used and will be sold.

I will be storing the working container in a bucket with bentonite in the bottom, it is stored with the reagents under the lab sink.

Also the bottle it the picture is unused lol

HDPE bottle.jpg - 50kB

kuro96inlaila - 19-8-2010 at 13:54

Just store it......you will find it useful later.trust me.

Panache - 19-8-2010 at 15:33

if you're confused because of the 20+ well intentioned replies i can make up a spreadsheet for detailing what was suggested, you could correlate this with the ratings of the posters to help you choose what you should do. Then over the years as different things work or fail you could update the correlation with the new data and post your observations.

Or you could do what you have intended and stated, that is
keep 500mL and sell the rest as is, you can always buy more if needed.

mewrox99 - 19-8-2010 at 16:28

I tried selling it on trade, it didn't sell probably because it's pick up only

Reading the replies I do feel slightly better about H2SO4.

If anyone is interested in buying the H2SO4 of me and live in Wellington, NZ send me a U2U. My price is ~$35-$40

barbs09 - 19-8-2010 at 16:39

One way to get rid of it:

Buy 50kg of sugar put in barrel...you know the rest. Make a monument to rival the aesthetic qualities of the beehive

The Beehive is the NZ Parliament building in Wellington if you wondered WTF I was on about.

[Edited on 20-8-2010 by barbs09]

Ephoton - 20-8-2010 at 03:10

go blow something up barbs

pill of crap damb it thats low.

ahh things back to norm.

progress is made and we still havent taken over the

free thinking christian world.

god damb it I thought all you bomb dudes were terrorists.

whats up your slacking off.

they might even think there making it all up to sell shampoo on tv next

Pyro - 2-5-2012 at 09:52

thats a bit much, i paid 35 NZD for 5l of it. try taking out a litre or so, and sell the remaining 4l for about 25-35 NZD
you will you kicking yourself if you sell it and need more...
but there is no reason to be scared, i live on a boat (www.thecanalbarge.com)
and i'm absolutely non-worried bout keeping my gallon containers of acids here. i just put them in a square plastic box and forget about them.
if you still want to sell it, then tell all your friends you have it and offer to sell it to them for a good price. for drain cleaner or whatever

gutter_ca - 2-5-2012 at 11:44

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro

thats a bit much, i paid 35 NZD for 5l of it. try taking out a litre or so, and sell the remaining 4l for about 25-35 NZD
you will you kicking yourself if you sell it and need more...
but there is no reason to be scared, i live on a boat (www.thecanalbarge.com)
and i'm absolutely non-worried bout keeping my gallon containers of acids here. i just put them in a square plastic box and forget about them.
if you still want to sell it, then tell all your friends you have it and offer to sell it to them for a good price. for drain cleaner or whatever

I kinda hope he's done whatever he was going to do with it after TWO YEARS.

Pyro - 2-5-2012 at 12:13

yeah, noticed that too late, might help the next person though

AJKOER - 2-5-2012 at 12:27

With kids around (or trying to sell your house), I would bury it in your garden until they are in college, and keep a small quantity on hand.

Note, NaHSO4 is a good/safer substitute in many reactions.

Also, consider making something useful with the acid like Al2(SO4)3 (or even FeSO4), which you may be able to sell locally.

[Edited on 2-5-2012 by AJKOER]

plante1999 - 2-5-2012 at 14:31

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

Quote: Originally posted by Ozonelabs

Dab off Sulphuric first with a tissue then wash it off to avoid double burns.

That's probably good advice. I should have said that I quickly walk over to the sink and wash it off. I've never noticed any burns.

I agree with magpie. I already got some droplets of H2SO4 on my skin, I washed it quickly with water and my skin was not harmed at all.(I respect chemicals)I manipulated many corrosive chemicals and acid in the last few years and I would say that in general I prefer to use sulfuric for safety and material durability. Sulfuric does not make fume. HCl by the way isn't harmful at all for the skin but it did make chocking fume which are really deadly for iron,steel,nickel and other metal with medium reactivity(aluminium make a protective layer) making a chloride/oxide mix.

MagicJigPipe - 3-5-2012 at 20:54

I don't mean to be insensitive or anything but, why does the girl in the picture have to have a snot bubble? Did she just not notice it? Or does it just appear that way and it's really just a scar?

It's not that it bothers me, I'm just curious.

Moving on... Every time I've had conc. H2SO4 or conc. NaOH "spilled" on me (really it's just a drop here and there or the result of touching a bottle that is covered with it) it doesn't start to hurt until a few minutes later and even then, after I rinse it off, it doesn't really leave anything but a slight red mark. Are my experiences just different or could it be my skin is somehow different? I think the former is the most likely.

woelen - 3-5-2012 at 22:35

The same to me. Spilling conc. NaOH-solution does not lead to instant burn of the skin. Conc. H2SO4 is more agressive, but still, it does not burn immediately. However, within 15 seconds or so it does feel bad already, so it's definitely worse than conc. NaOH.

I even once spilled a few drops of Br2 on my skin and even that did not burn at all. It quickly evaporated and left a yellow stain, which disappeared over time.

Pyro - 5-5-2012 at 08:00

ouch,
isn't Br2 supposed to be really corrosive?
i think the time when you feel it depends on where you get it, because i had a 5l canister and i was going to pour it into a 1l bottle, so I was pouring it and lost my balance, i just managed to not fall, but spilt loads of it on the ground! then my neck started burning, so i went to the sink and washed it off, but i had a big red spot on my neck for weeks, but then i have spilt it on my hands as well, and theres almost no mark.

Arthur Dent - 5-5-2012 at 09:34

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro

ouch,
...then my neck started burning, so i went to the sink and washed it off, but i had a big red spot on my neck for weeks, but then i have spilt it on my hands as well, and theres almost no mark.

This goes to show the various skin resistance to corrosion depending on what part of the body is exposed. Hands usually have thicker, stronger, callous skin than on your arm or your neck. I readily pull glassware with my bare hands from a pail filled with a 10% sol of HCl with no ill effect, (I do rinse immediately though) but if some of that solution splashes on my forearm, it stings and i get a slightly reddish patch.

But still, handling any chemical is best done with gloves.

Robert

Endimion17 - 5-5-2012 at 10:06

The rule is to quickly wipe it off (dabbing, not smearing) first, and then rinse it for few minutes with lots of running water.
The wiping is probably not neccessary for situations involving a drop on the skin being washed away after 0-5 seconds with a strong stream of cold water.

However, if the surface area is greater (palm, hand, things, feet, face), and the time to reach the emergency shower is greater than 5 seconds, you want to dab it first, trust me. Any chemical burn makes the skin very sensitive to thermal burns.
After the initial water rinse, one should spill some concentrated NaHCO3 solution on the affected area, wait a few minutes, and then rinse it off, dry it carefully and put on some skin lotion if there aren't obvious burns, of course.

DougTheMapper - 5-5-2012 at 10:52

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

I even once spilled a few drops of Br2 on my skin and even that did not burn at all. It quickly evaporated and left a yellow stain, which disappeared over time.

The worst part about bromine burns is the awful smell of bromine lingering near the wound for a day or two.

Pyro - 17-5-2012 at 02:30

i actually don't find HCl very bad, i use 23% when washing glass, cleaning other stuff, and after constantly touching it for a few mins, all that happens is that my hands feel a little rough, but that clears by the next day.
but hot H2SO4 is scary

Arthur Dent - 17-5-2012 at 04:10

H2SO4 is the less "scary" of all common mineral acids. It's quite stable and doesn't degrade over time if stored properly. The really awful acids are HCl and HNO3, Hydrochloric acid generates a lot of acidic mist that eats through steel and iron tools and equipment quite rapidly, and even a well-sealed bottle can't be kept for a long time without ventilation (not all of us have a ventilated acid cabinet!). I've had a HCl's bottle label literally melt away!

Nitric acid also vents oxidizing gases, but at a lower rate. Best example is the two (nearly full) 4-liter glass bottles of H2SO4 and HNO3, they are both kept in a large plastic spill pan, on a metal shelf, and only above the Nitric acid bottle is there corrosion. Oh, and I bought those bottles brand new... over 25 years ago!

Robert

Swede - 18-5-2012 at 09:17

I hate storing HNO3... A while back, I had some standard concentrated HNO3 stored in a PFA jug, one of those insanely expensive containers that look like a $3 HDPE bottle but retail for a couple hundred bucks each, and while the bottle retained its integrity, the plastic "stiffened" for lack of a better term from the bottom up to the level of the acid. Above that, it retained its virginal flexibility. Something was going on in there... In the end, I transferred it to a 4l glass reagent jug, but replaced the cheap bakelite-like cap (it was an older bottle) with a PFA cap. I had had one of those old caps literally crumble to dust after a few years over nitric acid.

Sulfuric + HDPE, no probs.

HCl isn't too bad. One day, I was working with conc HCl, and spilled a bit on my hand. I reached for a gallon jug of water, and began to pour it over my hand in a steady stream. Then, I noticed the concrete floor beginning to foam and fizzle, and I realized I had grabbed the same jug of conc. HCl and was using it in an attempt to rinse off the tiny spill! I ran to the sink, rinsed aggressively, and expected to see a smoking skeletal hand. Instead, there was no ill effect whatsoever. The skin didn't even redden. Still, some lessons learned. If that had been any other acid...

I now wear at a minimum nitrile gloves ALL the time in my lab. And eye protection, 100% of the time, regardless of the innocence of a given procedure.

[Edited on 18-5-2012 by Swede]

mycotheologist - 18-5-2012 at 09:52

I store 98% H2SO4 in HDPE containers. Thats the containers I buy them in so I'm fairly sure HDPE can resist it well enough, otherwise drain cleaner manufacturers would have a lot of lawsuits on their hands.

Quote: Originally posted by Arthur Dent

I've had a HCl's bottle label literally melt away!

What was the bottle made of? According to the chemical resistance charts, HDPE is inert to all of the hydrohalic acids. Well, the chart I saw mentioned HCl and HF so I assume it also applies to HBr and HI. Could be wrong though. I have some 40% HBr in a HDPE container out my back garden at the moment to see if it does any damage. Only been a few days so far but we'll see in a month or so.

[Edited on 18-5-2012 by mycotheologist]

Pyro - 18-5-2012 at 14:38

youch swede,
that must've been a scary moment, must have cost quite a bit too

DieForelle - 17-2-2013 at 08:27

Sorry to bump but I have a question or two and I think it's best answered here. Hope the OP mewrox99 is still alive haha.

Was looking through some ancient newsgroup threads and found this: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/sci.chem...
With this astonishing but apparently correct quote:
Most places require the pH of aqueous wastes discarded down the drainbetween 4 and 10. That means that the maximum [H+] in effluent is10^(-4) M. In order to dilute a gallon of conc. H2SO4 (ca. 36 Mpotential H+ ions) to this pH, you would need about 400,000 gallons ofwater. This is a cube of water about 37' on a side--about 10X as largeas a swimming pool.) Or, to put it another way, for each *drop* ofconc. H2SO4 you put down the drain, you'll need about 2 1/2 gallons ofwater. I sure don't have the patience to drip it down the drain thatslowly!

From doing some experiments w/food grade HCl & NaOH, I know minute quantities of these materials can hugely alter pH. I'm surprised it takes that much to dilute them though. I feel like we sometimes used sulfuric acid in my college chemistry labs without allowing a swimming pool's worth of water to rinse out the excess. (OTOH, I do remember a chemistry prof telling us that most chemistry buildings have special glass-lined waste plumbing...is that true?) But I find it odd that no one in the thread proposed an easier solution to the dilemma. As barbs09 said above, wouldn't a big pail full of sugar partly neutralize 500ml of concentrated H2SO4? Or slowly dilute it 10 to 1 in ice, and neutralize what's left with NaOH? How many hydrogen ions can occupy a given volume of space? Surely even if 10cm^3 of acid takes tens of thousands of gallons to dilute it, a similar spatial volume of a hydroxide will neutralize it?

So, to the question I was originally trying to figure out. I have some ACS-plus HCl that I diluted to 20% and stored in a amber glass bottle. I used very small amts. for some culinary experiments like inverting sugar or whatnot. (only takes a drop) This was slightly easier to get than FCC Grade (though by no means easy!*) and varies only by a couple minor specifications. Anyhow. The oddest thing is happening: the amber glass bottle, which I'm pretty sure is from Wheaton and is high quality, had a weird whiteish efflorescence near the mouth. Just covering the domed part, it doesn't run down the entire bottle. I tried to photograph it but it was barely visible anyhow. But, it's unmistakable. And, if I wipe it away with distilled water - it seems water labile/soluble, it comes back in a few weeks, even w/o opening the bottle again! It is tightly capped but not super tightly capped, I'm not using a wrench obviously. BTW I washed the new (from that place in Denver, The Science Co. IIRC) amber bottle in detergent & Ammonia, rinsed in hot tap water a few times, then vinegar, then rinsed in distilled water a couple times, before the initial dilution. Then of course I diluted w/distilled water. So I'm pretty sure it's non-bottle, non-acid, non-distilled water contamination...if that makes sense.

Some thoughts (very amateurish, that's why I'm here):
If it were HF contamination, the original bottle from Fisher would of course show that...the inside would have become etched by now. (this is assuming some horrendous scenario like my supplier ripped me off by substituting a lesser grade of material. It kinda annoyed me that the 2.5L bottle didn't have a plastic safety seal but it didn't and I assumed that was normal)

If the acid vapors were leaching iron out of the amber glass, when I wiped this stuff away there would have been at least a slight ferruginous smell; and/or the salts would not have been pure white as they were.

Maybe my fingerprints left a bit of oil near the top of the bottle, and escaping HCl slowly chlorinates these into a powdery organic peroxide of some kind?

Hoping someone who uses dilute HCL in amber glass bottles has seen this before! Thanks!

* - I don't know why resellers are so a-retentive about selling this grade of material. Anyone making meth will just go to home depot where HCl is 10X less expensive.

[Edited on 17-2-2013 by DieForelle]

DieForelle - 17-2-2013 at 09:15

I thought I should post the picture after all. It's just a few milligrams of material, obviously.

btw - this is the bottle:
http://www.sciencecompany.com/Amber-Glass-Narrow-Mouth-Bottl...