Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Opening lithium batteries with copper tube cutters

Opening lithium batteries with copper tube cutters

cnidocyte - 9-9-2010 at 10:20

I tried the old fashioned method (using a needle nose pliers) to open up a lithium battery but its way too tedious and time consuming so I'm gonna just a copper tube cutter instead. This is the kinda tube cutter I have

I have these Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries

which are quite expensive, so I don't want to play around with them and risk shorting the battery and wrecking the lithium. When you peel the wrapper off one of these batteries, it is a cylinder but has a groove near the negative terminal

I wonder if I should just cut at that groove. I saw NurdRage's video on using a needle nose pliers to extract lithium
http://www.youtube.com/user/NurdRage#p/search/9/BliWUHSOalU
and from what I can see there is a spacer at the very top but I don't know if thats all I'd be bypassing by cutting at this groove. I don't know what he was talking about when he said release valve.

If I was to cut the battery at that groove, I think I will bypass the spacer and release valve and all that crap and be left with just the core hes talking about. Has anyone here used a copper tube cutter to get lithium out of a battery? If so where do you cut?

[Edited on 9-9-2010 by cnidocyte]

peach - 9-9-2010 at 11:03

You mean, like this....

I watch NurdRage's videos all the time, and speak to him, but there are alternatives. If you bridge the terminals on a charged cell, the battery will start warming up. Fast. It may pop and spew it's insides through the vent (electrolytic capacitors have these two, weak spots on the casing that pop before they turn into mini-bombs). It won't happen like a firework going off, you'll feel it start getting warm, then coffee temperature about a minute later. Chuck it outside and get on with something else, then check back later. It'll probably be fine.

The Nurd is correct, do this outside. It absolutely STINKS! This coming from the hydrogen chloride huffer. I did one in the kitchen, then took the rubbish outside and binned it. I could still smell it, instantly, hours later and a trace of it the next day. People in the house at the time left the room it stank so badly. Smells like a rancid egg that's been left at the bottom of a stagnant pond for a hundred years.

You do need to move very quickly once the roll is unwound, it'll start oxidizing (visibly) within seconds.

Once you've done a few with pliers, it gets a lot quicker as you start dumping some force on them; I got my second one open about as quickly as the pipe cutter guy, but using pliers. I'm the person replying to the guy who made that video above, in the comments section. Take note of us both suggesting a butterfly nut cutter, those kind (the one he's using and in your piccy) will blister your handies if you have to do a lot of cutting (particularly through steel); the knurling digs in and it's hard to turn the knurled nut when compared to a butterfly.

The zinc and alkaline batteries are easypeasy, the casing is much softer.

[Edited on 9-9-2010 by peach]

metalresearcher - 9-9-2010 at 12:08

Is there not an explosion risk when you shortcut the battery ?
Lots of H2 gas are then released with the explosion hazard.

h2o2guru - 9-9-2010 at 13:08

Have you opened one of these before ??
If I remember correctly energizers are not "really" lithium cells.
They are lithium "boosted" zinc cells. they use a zinc/lithium alloy.
The voltage is too low to be a "real" lithium primary cell.
1.6-1.7 volts.

h2o2guru - 9-9-2010 at 13:15

oops , I just looked at their specs , and yes they are lithium / iron disulfide batteries !
brain fart !!
I must have been thinking of the earlier generation.

aonomus - 9-9-2010 at 13:48

I'm pretty sure the blue label energizer lithium batteries are true lithium primary cells, however I'm left wondering what these cheaper orange label lithium cells are; perhaps they are zinc-lithium cells?

Sedit - 9-9-2010 at 17:23

I do it all the time when opening them, it is my method of choice for years. However make sure you have new ones dedicated for the job and that you got VERY VERY slowly when cutting it because if you go to fast even a little you will bevel the shell inward and it will make pulling out the contents bad if not impossible. Start at the bottom and cut, do not go for the top.

If done right in a few minutes you will be able to just grab the entire contents and drop it into some Naptha or mineral spirits which it should be unwound in.

[Edited on 10-9-2010 by Sedit]

aonomus - 9-9-2010 at 17:56

I'm halfway tempted to buy a disposable argon cylinder and regulator to try this inside a diy glove-bag to give me all the time in the world. Unfortunately you still have to deal with the iron disulfide and associated odors.

Edit:

I found more info for reference:
Applications page on the LiFe2S batteries: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf
MSDS for LiFe2S batteries: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiumirondisulfide_psds.pdf
MSDS for LiMnO2 batteries: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiummangdioxide_psds.pdf

[Edited on 10-9-2010 by aonomus]

peach - 10-9-2010 at 01:47

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peach - 10-9-2010 at 16:58

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entropy51 - 10-9-2010 at 17:23

Very enlightening video, peach!

peach - 10-9-2010 at 17:37

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

Very enlightening video, peach!

It's coming up on bonfire night, a time when us brits celebrate Guy Fawkes' attempt to nuke parliament off the map by setting fire to a facsimile of him.

I thought it was time for some pretty colours.

entropy51 - 10-9-2010 at 17:41

Aye, yes, covered in Oliver Sacks' book "Uncle Tungsten". It's a good read, if you haven't already read it.

I still worry about your chemical exposures, however. None of this stuff is really benign.

peach - 10-9-2010 at 18:27

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

I still worry about your chemical exposures, however. None of this stuff is really benign.

WHO SAID THAT?! {feels dizzy}

You're probably right, sometimes....

At the moment, I'm more concerned about the 30 cigarettes I went through today. That certainly IS self harm. And very addictive.

I've heard of that book before and people saying it was good, so I'll have a look for it. I recommend in return, Bad Science and Freakanomics. Neither of those are jokes, they're both good. I'd be surprised if you didn't find them interesting, funny or enjoy them.

[Edited on 11-9-2010 by peach]

cnidocyte - 11-9-2010 at 09:28

Quote: Originally posted by peach

If you bridge the terminals on a charged cell, the battery will start warming up. Fast.

Thanks for the link, I was looking for a video on this. That pretty much answers my questions.

Quote: Originally posted by peach

The Nurd is correct, do this outside. It absolutely STINKS!

What compound causes the smell?

Quote: Originally posted by peach

Once you've done a few with pliers, it gets a lot quicker as you start dumping some force on them; I got my second one open about as quickly as the pipe cutter guy, but using pliers.

I gave up on that method as the needle nose pliers kept losing its grip. I turned the circular tip of the terminal square in the process but I didn't even come close to getting that cap off.

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit

I do it all the time when opening them, it is my method of choice for years. However make sure you have new ones dedicated for the job and that you got VERY VERY slowly when cutting it because if you go to fast even a little you will bevel the shell inward and it will make pulling out the contents bad if not impossible. Start at the bottom and cut, do not go for the top.

If done right in a few minutes you will be able to just grab the entire contents and drop it into some Naptha or mineral spirits which it should be unwound in.

Thanks a lot, that answered a few unasked questions I had. I wonder how the ion flow happens in this cell. Is there some kinda membrane in the plastic separator?

[Edited on 11-9-2010 by cnidocyte]

peach - 11-9-2010 at 10:26

The lithium spool is the anode. As far as I'm aware of things, it's basically pure lithium. It certainly responds as such to flames, water and it feels right (e.g. I can tear it like a piece of paper and it's about as soft as undercooked pasta; the best kind, al dente if you're getting picky).

In the energerizers, Iron Disulphide (the Iron part of their name) is the cathode and creates the rotten egg stench. This is also called 'Fools gold', as it looks like a nugget of gold.

Very pretty. If you have a look at the wiki, it's one of those things that forms 'computery' looking structures and very visibly shows up odd crystal structures, where two systems overlap each other and 'stick into' each other, as opposed to forming as truly separate systems.

I tried tricking my little brother into thinking I'd found a nugget of pure gold by burying some in the back yard at one point, then digging it up in front of him and acting surprised, after my older brother fed me washing powder saying it was a new kind of sherbet; and that the blue bits were a special flavouring.

The lithium is separated from the cathode by a layer of plastic between the two, which the ions can move through but the components can not, stopping them from immediately shorting and reacting with each other (they can now only interact with each other by passing charge through the circuit connected to the battery).

Here's a long PDF from energizer all about them

I can summarize most of that for removing the lithium.

The over current / burst vent are at the very top, so cutting at the bottom may help avoid accidents.

Descriptions go as far as 'an organic solvent' for the ions. The solvent is there to help the ions flow, but the inside is pretty much dry to the touch, it's only there in tiny traces.

The energizers don't contain thionyl chloride or sulphur dioxide. Energizer won't want to handle the chloride in the first place. It's hard to get, dangerous and needs special measures taking, increasing the cell price. They also won't want customers exposed to it if the cells burst. So there's a drive for them to get rid of it.

Don't give up the pliers too quickly. I found a lot of violent actually gets them open quicker and safer, as I can get them apart before they have a chance to heat up. That is not to say, use a hammer.

I used needle nose pliers as well. Try crushing the casing around the top, at the nipple. That usually helps loosen up the cap, which then pulls off. I found mole grips (the pliers that clamp like a vice) work well for that; and crushing coins. It's also quite likely going to short the cell, so expect it to warm up.

The few first are a pain in the ass to get open, as the casing is a lot tougher on these. But it's possible and not that difficult once you've got a couple done.

Remember, perseverance is paramount and proper planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance.

[Edited on 11-9-2010 by peach]

cnidocyte - 11-9-2010 at 10:38

I successfully got the lithium strip out of a battery just there and immediately immersed it in a jar of white spirit (a hydrocarbon distillate) expecting no reaction at all to occur but bubbles started forming. I don't know whats going on so I sealed the jar and put it at the end of the garden where nobody will be within range of it if anything bad happens. Why are there bubbles forming in a jar of hydrocarbons with some lithium submerged?

My god that iron disulfide stuff reeks doesn't it. I don't want to store something that smelly in my lab at the moment so I disposed of it.

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51

I still worry about your chemical exposures, however. None of this stuff is really benign.

My fume hood isn't up and running yet and I didn't have a mask so I did this outside. Is there anything exceptionally hazardous about the contents of these cells? I wore gloves and goggles but I was a bit worried about fumes.

peach - 11-9-2010 at 10:44

There's nothing super toxic in there.

I don't know what the organic solvent is, but Energizer won't have spent R&D cash on it if it's not safer than thionyl chloride. The latter is extremely dangerous, so much so it's listed on the chemical weapons control acts.

The sulphide does indeed STINK

The bubbles mean your liquid is likely contaminated with water, and the lithium is reacting with it.

DO NOT seal bottles that you even suspect are capable of evolving gas, let alone ones that are doing so visibly. I wouldn't be surprised if that one has burst when you check it. Be very careful picking it up if it hasn't.

The cathode, the part that stinks, will release sulphur dioxide under oxidizing / acidic conditions. That will burn, seriously, if you breath it in. But it's not systemically toxic, mutagenic, teratogenic or any of the other real nasty shit. My cigarettes are all of the above.

[Edited on 11-9-2010 by peach]

mnick12 - 11-9-2010 at 10:46

The bubbles are probably from moisture in your white spirits, nothing to be worried about unless there is alot of water in it.

Also has anyone weighed the amount of lithium in a AA sized battery? If I remember correctly when I opened some for my lithium bronze expiriments there was something like .93or.94gr of lithium in each battery.-Does this sound right?

Thanks

peach - 11-9-2010 at 10:50

Quote: Originally posted by mnick12

The bubbles are probably from moisture in your white spirits, nothing to be worried about unless there is alot of water in it.

Also has anyone weighed the amount of lithium in a AA sized battery? If I remember correctly when I opened some for my lithium bronze expiriments there was something like .93or.94gr of lithium in each battery.-Does this sound right?

Thanks

Yeah, it's something around that. Not a lot, but easily enough for pretty colours and drying things. I did weigh mine, but then forgot.

[Edited on 11-9-2010 by peach]

cnidocyte - 11-9-2010 at 11:05

Quote: Originally posted by peach

DO NOT seal bottles that you even suspect are capable of evolving gas, let alone ones that are doing so visibly. I wouldn't be surprised if that one has burst when you check it. Be very careful picking it up if it hasn't.

Yeah sorry I should have mentioned I sealed it after the bubbles stopped forming. Although it was well outta the way, flying gas, white spirit and lithium wouldn't be good lol.

Quote: Originally posted by peach

Yeah, it's something around that. Not a lot, but easily enough for pretty colours and drying things. I did weigh mine, but then forgot.

Besides showing people a flaming ball of lithium rolling around on the surface of a beaker of water, the only thing I can think of to do with it right now is react it with ethanol and make some lithium ethoxide. What I will do with the lithium ethoxide I have no idea but it feels good putting some of my chem theory into practice.

peach - 11-9-2010 at 11:11

You could react it some halogen sources to make a little array of various lithium salts, cleaner than you'd get them in bath salt form.

That lithium will be fairly pure. I may try to squeeze an actual number out of Energizer for it. Making it a potentially usable source for analytical grade lithium based compounds.

Sedit - 11-9-2010 at 13:17

I have the notes somewhere and I will correct it when I find them but the amount of Li is something on the order of 1.2 grams per battery.

Open a battery and toss the Li into water and let me know when you get flames from it and not just alot of violent fizzing. I will be waiting for the pictures of this...

However if a drop or two is placed on the strip in open air it will catch fire easy.

MagicJigPipe - 11-9-2010 at 22:21

Quote:

It's coming up on bonfire night, a time when us brits celebrate Guy Fawkes' attempt to nuke parliament off the map

So it WAS Guy Fawkes who first discovered fission and attempted to make a weapon out of it! I knew the Manhattan Project was a hoax. Or maybe the aliens told him how to do it? This could be the precursor to the first industrial revolution!

Finally, my suspicions have been confirmed.

Quote:

by setting fire to a facsimile of him.

Get over it already! I can see that British government propaganda is still in full force even after all these years. I guess you have to have some sort of scapegoat to keep the people distracted from the real despots. Think Goldstein in 1984 (where did that idea come from I wonder?)

zed - 12-9-2010 at 02:07

What are you talking about? The abbreviation gr. means GRAINS, not GRAMS.

They are not even remotely similar!

So what is it? Grains or Grams?

A Gram of Lithium is a small amount. A Grain is a tiny amount.

Gram= 1000mg. Grain= ~65mg.

Clarify.

[Edited on 12-9-2010 by zed]

peach - 12-9-2010 at 08:01

Quote:

I guess you have to have some sort of scapegoat to keep the people distracted from the real despots.

Thems there be fightin' words, and dangerous ones at that too!

Quote: Originally posted by zed

What are you talking about? The abbreviation gr. means GRAINS, not GRAMS.

They are not even remotely similar!

So what is it? Grains or Grams?

A Gram of Lithium is a small amount. A Grain is a tiny amount.

Gram= 1000mg. Grain= ~65mg.

Clarify.

I think he's talking about 1,000,000 ug

I'm sure you'll pick up on the joke hidden in there towards the end.

cnidocyte - 15-9-2010 at 08:48

I just pulled the lithium out of all 9 batteries I had left so thats 9 cathodes left over. There doesn't seem to be much iron disulfide on each aluminium strip, is there any point in storing this stuff? I like to collect every chemical I come across so I don't really wanna dump it. Rotten eggs wasn't the only smell I got opening up these batteries. The first smell I got was a liquoricy smell that reminded me of cold engine starting fluid with diethyl ether in it. I used pure ether in the lab but I can't remember what it smelled like. In this case I wonder what that liquoricy smell is.

Also I noticed all the lithium I dunk in white spirit eventually turns black. I thought the hydrocarbons would keep it from tarnishing. At one point I think a bit of iron disulfide fell off my glove into the lithium jar and started bubbling heavily. Luckily it didn't last long so it didn't generate much heat.

EDIT: I just tested the Li out and poured some water on a tiny piece of metal. It bubbled like mad and was gone in seconds but it didn't burst into flames like I was expecting. Probably would have if I had a greater lithium to water ratio though.

[Edited on 15-9-2010 by cnidocyte]

peach - 15-9-2010 at 11:03

There isn't much disulphide no, there doesn't need to be. Neither does it need to be soggy with the ion transfer solvent for it to pass very large currents.

I wouldn't bother with the disulphide, there's barely any there and you can easily buy or make a lot of it. Plus, it smells.

If it's tarnishing in the oil and the top is on, the oil is damp or full of dissolved oxygen. You could try putting the oil under vacuum first to remove any dissolved gases. And drying the oil before putting the bulk of the lithium in by using a little strip of it.

It's a lot of effort to keep the stuff shiny and it's not really necessary for a lot of what it's going to be put to use in; e.g. setting it on fire or drying things.

You may have more luck filling the bottle with some of the shielding gas from a welding set as opposed to using oil.

[Edited on 15-9-2010 by peach]

Brain&Force - 6-9-2014 at 11:14

I just disassembled a Li battery using a hacksaw; that does not short out the battery, either. If the battery does short, the best thing to do is to keep cutting the top off.

[Edited on 7.9.2014 by Brain&Force]

Brain&Force - 9-9-2014 at 12:36

I've discovered something really interesting. The Energizer Advanced Lithium batteries appear to have the same or nearly the same amount of lithium as the Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries! This is also independent of size of the battery - AA and AAA batteries seem to have a similar amount of lithium as well. I haven't been able, however, to determine the thickness of the foil, which seems like the most likely variable.

So it may be more cost-effective to buy the Advanced batteries...

aga - 9-9-2014 at 12:55

Quote: Originally posted by peach

The lithium is separated from the cathode by a layer of plastic between the two, which the ions can move through but the components can not

An ion-permeable membrane !?!

Sounds like that could come in handy.

Are such permeable membranes specific to the ions they allow, e.g. Size ?

[Edited on 9-9-2014 by aga]

aga - 9-9-2014 at 12:57

Quote: Originally posted by Brain&Force

I just disassembled a Li battery using a hacksaw

I can see in the near future a pack of batteries, a vice and an Angle Grinder.

FireLion3 - 9-9-2014 at 13:39

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Quote: Originally posted by peach

The lithium is separated from the cathode by a layer of plastic between the two, which the ions can move through but the components can not

An ion-permeable membrane !?!

Sounds like that could come in handy.

Are such permeable membranes specific to the ions they allow, e.g. Size ?

[Edited on 9-9-2014 by aga]

That is pointless to extract those from membranes. You can purchase ion permeable membranes very cheaply online specifically for purposes of electrochemistry. They have many different kinds.

aga - 10-9-2014 at 11:01

Wow !

I never though to even look on ebay.

Thanks.

[Edited on 10-9-2014 by aga]

Hydrocarbons

Blinded - 10-9-2014 at 22:19

Quote: Originally posted by cnidocyte

Also I noticed all the lithium I dunk in white spirit eventually turns black. I thought the hydrocarbons would keep it from tarnishing. At one point I think a bit of iron disulfide fell off my glove into the lithium jar and started bubbling heavily. Luckily it didn't last long so it didn't generate much heat.

EDIT: I just tested the Li out and poured some water on a tiny piece of metal. It bubbled like mad and was gone in seconds but it didn't burst into flames like I was expecting. Probably would have if I had a greater lithium to water ratio though.

[Edited on 15-9-2010 by cnidocyte]

Make sure to use an inert hydrocarbon solvent for the storage of Lithium! Like toluene, pentane/hexane/heptane...etc Using the wrong solvent (especially halogenated and protic solvents) can and will lead to fires.
Stay safe.

[Edited on 11-9-2014 by Blinded]

zirconiumiodide - 14-9-2014 at 14:29

Quote: Originally posted by cnidocyte

EDIT: I just tested the Li out and poured some water on a tiny piece of metal. It bubbled like mad and was gone in seconds but it didn't burst into flames like I was expecting. Probably would have if I had a greater lithium to water ratio though.

[Edited on 15-9-2010 by cnidocyte]

When i first removed lithium from an energiser battery i was eager to test it immediately. I cut of some lithium (a nice chunk) and chucked it into a pyrex jug full of water. There was an immediate reaction - which looked more like that of Potassium, with the metal bursting into flames almost immediately. However when i tested the metal after storing in mineral oil it reacted more slowly.

ZrI4