Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Cops decide to burn down bombmaker's house

gutter_ca - 1-12-2010 at 15:39

This has been going on for a couple of weeks near me:

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/escondido/article_f2896617...

Amazing!

Sedit - 1-12-2010 at 15:56

LMAO I love the comment from the neighbors on how to clean it up basicly stating this fellow never blew himself up make him come and clean it up.

Ozone - 1-12-2010 at 16:03

A reasonable question:

"How did Jakubec not blow himself up?" she asked. "Why not have him come clean it up?"*

I suppose they will 1) evacuate the area and 2) catch what happens next on film (whew), 3) crucify whoever came up with this ridiculous idea and then 4) remain in litigation for the next 20 years, or so.

Oh, and they will blame Jakubec for any catastrophic result that occurs while they *burn his house down*.

Reckless stupidity (on the part of both Jakubec and the local authorities),

O3

*rats, Sedit beat me to it :)

[Edited on 2-12-2010 by Ozone]

gutter_ca - 1-12-2010 at 16:06

Issues offhand:

*Neighbors' foundations
*Gas/Water/Electric lines
*Not knowing what is involved


Sheer lunacy on the part of these "experts"

Sedit - 1-12-2010 at 16:13

I hope they do it, I haven't seen a new episode of Destroyed in 60 seconds in a while:D.

Its Ok folks sheessh they said there going to preheat the house to make sure it burns fast, Muhhwahhahahahaha...

Ozone - 1-12-2010 at 16:17

"preheat the house..."*

Oh, yea.

*facepalm*

O3

*How would you do that, anyway?

madscientist - 1-12-2010 at 16:26

Why don't they just call in an airstrike? Then they could miss by 200ft and inflict even more collateral damage.

gutter_ca - 1-12-2010 at 16:31

Were I a neighbor, I think I would be in court right now seeking an injunction.

/Really, WTF is up with "heating the house so it will burn fast"?

madscientist - 1-12-2010 at 16:33

The faster it burns, the bigger the fireball?

Ozone - 1-12-2010 at 16:39

I say we soak the house with KClO3 solution, perhaps with a helicopter, before heating it to dryness. That will make it burn faster, I bet.

I wonder if it would be seen from space?

Maybe liquid O2 would be more economical then heating?

:P,

O3

bbartlog - 1-12-2010 at 16:39

Most LEOs are very risk averse these days, even (or especially) in situations where you would think they should be the ones we specifically hired to take the risks in question. SWAT teams that back away when armed resistance is encountered, bomb squads that won't enter houses when actual explosives are determined to be present. The Columbine shootings (and the length of time it took before any police dared to venture in to the school) are a good example. Cultural problem really, no one gets in trouble for being too cautious; there's a perception that there's no such thing as being too careful.

gutter_ca - 1-12-2010 at 16:40

Might have to take a day off of work to be reasonably nearby when thisgoes down...

Ozone - 1-12-2010 at 17:07

Good point.

I remember cops waiting to give tickets to people parking on the wrong side of the street *in front of their homes*. This would happen two blocks from where I saw someone riding my neighbor's stolen bicycle.

Pfft,

O3

crazedguy - 1-12-2010 at 19:14

this is pretty much hysterical

MagicJigPipe - 1-12-2010 at 19:14

12 pounds of explosives? Jesus Christ call the National Guard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's what the police want you to think will happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5_9Gi7w19Y&feature=relat...

Here's what would probably happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUPVL4fepsw

Not as cool I must say... Pity...

psychokinetic - 1-12-2010 at 19:19

Preheat neighbourhood to 180 degrees C, place bomb factory in middle rack and bake for 140 mins or until no longer bleeding when staked.

Ozone - 1-12-2010 at 19:28

Probably so, but how often is such amusement gratis? While the ignorance is laughable, it is also scary...and, predictable.

How do we expect this to effect us? No doubt that some A-Hole (probably incumbent) legislator will attempt to make a name for his-herself by drafting a bill to "protect us" from this sort of thing. If the cops blow it up, preferably with collateral damage and accidental death/dismemberment, (to the legislator's point-of-view) all the better.

Nothing like a crisis to exploit. For our safety, of course...

\
Boom, and shite,
O3

[Edited on 2-12-2010 by Ozone]

watson.fawkes - 1-12-2010 at 20:25

From the article:
Quote:
homemade explosives were found in and around the rental property
Does anybody else find it wryly amusing that this is a rental? I mean, just turn this around: Where would you like to rent?

Anonymously, of course.

crazedguy - 1-12-2010 at 20:28

i dont get what kind of scientist even a mad one would have H.E. just around the house i can understand in but who has a pile of hmtd or whatever just outside for some gardener to step on

Sedit - 1-12-2010 at 21:28

I don't think this fellow was a scientist from the sounds of it considering he was wanted in connection with some bank robberys he had other motives in mind. This fellow was nothing more then a cook from the sounds of it.

quicksilver - 3-12-2010 at 08:02

The method of finding the materials was an accident where a worker "steps" on an explosive device?????? That sounds (if true) like something akin to a practice booby-trap device or something similar. It MIGHT have been a container or a primary but doubtful: it was set to pop.
ETN is a relativity unknown and for it to be mentioned so prominently is another interesting feature of the article. - NO DOUBT that this guy was some cook of a type as no one would be so caviler with energetic materials and to make something that would initiate (and injure someone in his backyard is a oddity & a damn stupid one). There are many unanswered questions. I would not be surprised if this was a guy frequented the internet in general. What certainly will be explored is the individual's politics and his background per se'.
The reason why I personally think they want to raze the home is two fold (they are afraid that the idiot stored materials where they cannot easily be found (in the walls or whatever); storing primaries with secondaries. Additionally I think they cannot use a dog effectively because of all the nitrate contamination within the home (plus the general simplification and money in doing so).

Ounces, let alone pounds of materials are a ridiculous thing to maintain: why this genius would do so is a question that is most likely primary in their minds. This was a danger to the community to an extreme degree. Why he had something that exploded in his backyard is beyond imagination. Superficially, It sounded like he was experimenting with an active "Anti-Personal mine" of some type or he had dropped a detonator of a ridiculously poor design that exploded when stepped upon in soft earth. Whatever the reason; the guy was not interested in chemistry as a hobby. He was not interested in safety, he was foolish enough to store active, completed materials. Admittedly 12 lbs is not heavy war-head level but it's a hell of a lot. That was not microscope slides of sub milligram amounts: that was storage.
Something is missing from this story; perhaps a great deal of information is not published. He was in a populous area of CALIFORNIA! That is NOT a place where such things are easily obtainable, easily unnoticed, & he had rented the property. He had no investment in the home - this guy is obviously very bad news. There is much more to this than meets the eye.

I certainly wouldn't want that guy for a neighbor!

[Edited on 3-12-2010 by quicksilver]

The WiZard is In - 3-12-2010 at 08:28

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  

I certainly wouldn't want that guy for a neighbor!


Et tu Quicksilver.

1 07-06-86 04:32 pcd

Suspect had experience with explosives

GODFREY, Ill. (UPI) _ Authorities said a man from Madison County
who was arrested after police found hundreds of pounds of explosives in
his house has had experience with explosives.

The man's home in Godfrey was destroyed nearly 10 years ago in an
blast officials determined was caused by explosives stored in the house.

Randal L. Brown, 35, and his wife, Susan P. Brown, 33, of Godfrey
were charged Thursday with possession of explosives or incendiary
devices and unlawful possession of explosives.

Authorities made the arrests as part of their investigation into a
bombing that blew the porch off a house in Wood River early Wednesday. A
man, a woman and two children in the house at the time of the blast were
uninjured.

David E. Wyatt, 22, of Godfrey, has been charged with aggravated
arson in the incident.

Police arrested the Browns after obtaining a search warrant for
their home.

More than 100 "explosive devices" were confiscated by police,
said Randy G. Massey, assistant state's attorney. Reports put the amount
of explosives at about 500 pounds.

Massey said it was a "possibility" that the material for the bomb
came from the cache in the Browns' home.

Police in East Alton still were investigating the discovery
Wednesday of about 300 explosive devices in the trunk of a parked car.

Massey said he could not comment about whether police believe the
two caches of explosives were related.

The investigation into the bombing was conducted by the Wood River
police, the Madison County Sheriff's Office and the U.S. Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

An explosion in January 1977 left nothing but the foundation of a
home where Randal Brown then lived, Lt. Tom Acker of the Godfrey Fire
Protection District said Saturday.

The state fire marshal's office and the federal firearms agency
determined the blast was caused by explosives stored in the house but no
charges were filed, Acker said.

The Browns were released Friday from the county jail in
Edwardsville after each posted a $20,000 bond.

Wyatt remained in jail in lieu of $50,000 bond. He also was charged
Thursday with another count of aggravated arson in a fire police said
had been set in June in East Alton.

The explosives confiscated from the two caches were blown up by
federal firearms agents at the East Alton police firing range.

The bombs found by police had been made up as fireworks,
[a cleaver disguise] East Alton Fire Chief
Bill Shewmaker said. He said they ranged in size from one to
10 inches and were in red and blue cardboard cylinders.

"I certainly wouldn't want that guy for a neighbor!" Too - two

The WiZard is In - 3-12-2010 at 08:34

ILLEGAL MANUFACTURE AND USE OF PYROTECHNICS


Seventh International Pyrotechnics Seminar
Vail Colorado 14-18 July 1980

Arthur L. Cunn
Explosives Enforcement Officer
Explosives Technology Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, DC 20226

ABSTRACT [Edited /djh/]

This is a brief of federal regulation and laws relating to the manufacture,
storage, transportation, and sale of fireworks. [Deleted] A case history is presented by
use of slides to show illegal manufacture in various geographical locations in
the United States and the slovenly way in which the manufacturing process
takes place. Also presented is a case of an accidental explosion of a
residence, where illegal fireworks were made. An eyewitness account of the
fire and explosion were filmed by a neighbor who had a camera in hand. This
one incident involved over 4 million dollars in damage, one death, and
numerous injuries. Another case history depicts the manufacturing process
and storage of illegal fireworks, including the crude manufacturing process
and almost non-existent safety precautions.

INTRODUCTION

..... In 1978, several hundred
persons were injured with one illegal manufacture's production of M-80
fireworks with a defective fuse. The fuse when lit had no delay and caused
the fireworks to explode instantly before the person using it could release it
from his hand. One of the illegal manufacturing plants of these devices was
found to be a two story frame house with part time employees, having
absolutely no training or pyrotechnic knowledge, constructing fireworks in the
kitchen and living room areas. Over twenty-two (22) 55 gallon drums of flash
powder were stored in the garage. An electric hot plate was used to heat
coffee for the workers and a small kitchen exhaust fan was utilized to remove
the explosive dust from the area. The floors and walls of the entire first floor
were covered with powder and they never had an accident in the time they
were in operation. None of the machinery used had explosion proof motors
and ordinary concrete mixers were utilized in mixing black powder.

This is almost typical of the type of operation that is used by the illegal
manufacturer. There exists absolutely no quality control and no safety
requirements involved in manufacture, storage or transportation are used.

I will now show some slides depicting some of the things I have talked about.

SLIDE 1 THROUGH 22 - SMOKE COMING FROM RESIDENCE.

On St. Patrick's Day 1978, a wood frame structure valued at $100,000 dollars
located in an upper middle income community in the State of Illinois was
destroyed by a fire and explosion within two minutes. Very few neighbors
expected a fireworks factory to be situated in their own backyards.

The set of slides you are viewing were taken by a neighbor who was
photographing his own residence when he spotted smoke coming from a
house across the street. This entire sequence was captured on film in three
minutes. The photographers wife called the fire department and being only a
few blocks away they responded almost immediately.

Shortly after the arrival of the fire department to what first appeared to be a
small smoking fire, a loud explosion occurred and the house started to
breakup. Almost immediately a second explosion occurred leveling the
house. At this time a burning person was seen running from the explosion.
He was assisted by the firemen and removed to a hospital where he later
died of burns.

The fire and explosions caused $4 million dollars worth of damage to the area
including the loss of two fire trucks and one police car.

A follow-up investigation disclosed that the victim, the owner of the house
was manufacturing illegal fireworks in the basement and over 600 pounds of
explosives consisting of perchlorate explosive powders and black powder
was on the premises before the fire. The cause of the accident was
determined to be a spark from a fuse cutting machine.

CASE STUDY OF ACCIDENTAL EXPLOSION OF
RESIDENCE WHERE FIREWORKS WERE MANUFACTURED

1. Smoke observed emanating from house.
2. Fire starting to progress.
3. Firemen arrive for what appears to be small confined fire.
4. First explosion occurred.
5. This explosion injures firemen, damages fire truck and police
vehicles.
6. Second explosion follows.
7. House starts to explode and fall apart.
8. Fire and police personnel flee immediate area.
9. Smoke now obscuring house.
10. House completely devasted.
11. New flare up of chemicals causes smoke.
12. Fire personnel return to site to fight fire.
13. Person seen leaving ruins and smoldering.
14. Victim is observed by fire chief.
15. Victim is aided by firemen and flames on clothing are
smothered.
16. Remains keep exploding and emitting dense smoke.
17. Fire and smoke continues.
18. Fire will not remain out, keeps relighting.
19. More minor explosions occur.
20. Final smoldering ruins.
21. Aerial view of accident site.
22. Final cleanup as water turns to ice.

CASE STUDY OF ILLEGAL FIREWORKS
FACTORY MANUFACTURING M-80 TYPE FIREWORKS

I . Typical M-80's
2. Outer containers prior to filling.
3. M-80 is marked as smoke.
4. Typical illegal and dangerous storage.
5. Sample of typical packing.
6. Cardboard carton packaging of fireworks.
7. Sacks of M-80's.
8. Preparation trays for M-80's
9. Empty cases ready for filling.
10. Filled and sealed fireworks in storage trays.
11. Typical work area.
12. This scene depicts slovenly storage and work areas.
13. Mixing machinery.
14. Homemade mixing tub.
15. Non-explosion proof machinery (air compressor).
16. Fireworks ready for shipment.
17. STORAGE OF 55 GALLON DRUMS OF PERCHLORATE MIX.
18. Non-explosion proof hydraulic press.
19. Dirty/contaminated work area.
20. Cement mixer used to mix black powder.
21. Floor used as work area.
22. Numerous cartons filled with fireworks.
23. Outside view of building used for manufacturing site.
24. Picnic table used outside for assembling fireworks.
25. An almost neat and clean work area.
26. Flash powder covers entire inside of building.
27. Sealer for ends of fireworks drying.
28. Mislabeled sacks of filler material.
29. Thousands of M-80's in drying process.
30. Same as above (another view).
31. Powder all over interior of building.
32. Work bench covered with fireworks powder
33. Fuse cutting machine without benefit of explosion proof
motor.
34. Fifty-five gallon drums of fireworks mix
35. Work bench and storage area.
36. Finished fireworks prior to packaging and shipment.
37. Filler material of corn cob grits.
38. Contaminated work area.
39. Propane torch used to melt glue for casings

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And he went into the temple of pyrotechnics, and cast out all them that sold
and bought M-80's in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the bomb
makers, and the seats of them that sold ground bombs.

It is written, this house shall be called the house of pyrotechnics; but ye have
made it a den of bomb makers.

And the fireworks makers came to the temple of pyrotechnics and were
healed.

/djh/ With apologies to Matthew

unionised - 3-12-2010 at 08:38

" 'I know they've spent a lot of time thinking this though,' said Mike Harrison, who lives across the street "
Not quite long enough.

" 'We have a very high confidence level that these chemicals will be neutralized very quickly,' said Todd Newman, fire chief of the San Marcos Fire Department"
Very quickly, though I can't be bothered to look up the VoD.

I guess the police will need to take samples before they destroy the evidence ( though some part of me hopes they forget because it would be a marvellous farce in court.

Police " you stand accused of making explosives."
Defendant " What explosives?"
Police "Oh Bugger!")

seriously, this method (fill the place with packing crates and set fire to it) is used for destroying explosives in contaminated buildings on old industrial sites where explosives were made. After the fire there are no explosives left.
The thing is that they didn't have neighbours living close by.


If I lived near this I would be faking receipts for expensive decorations and hi fi so that I could maximise my claim when the house fell down.

quicksilver - 3-12-2010 at 15:35

Many, many years back I remember when there were such fireworks mfg "sheds" - many on Reservations ( a big one outside of Las Vegas (as some folks may remember). They would sell their fireworks via the "outlets stores" just off the Highway along with alcohol & tobacco (yes: I'm not making this up...all three in one store (there was another store MANY people remember in Flagstaff AZ that was divided in half. One portion of the building sold guns; standard gun store - the other sold booze and tobacco.... They had hats; they sold that had some quip about ATF.

Many of the people who had subscriptions to American Fireworks News and were member of the PGI & were for the most part responsible hobbyists or professional technical or Special Effects workers would cringe that the "shed" facilities (many of which DID have tragic negligent issues). I pretty much knew the hobby was gone well before the mid-1990's but discussions continued (often in the News-Groups) and in many write-up's in AFN monthlies.
Jerks like this guy are simply throwing more soil on a grave that could have been channeled into a major safety boost for the whole nation; had anyone the money & time enough to commit themselves before all the tragedies, terror, stupidity, and exploitative "journalism" that was an easy sell.

Not that it even matters anymore. The art that was firework displays is vanishing. The science in energetic materials (which was the common way MANY youngsters got a fascination with chemistry & physics) is SO restrictive that many journals are tough to FIND any longer.
.....Last one out, please turn off the lights.


[Edited on 3-12-2010 by quicksilver]

franklyn - 3-12-2010 at 16:34


U P D A T E - They're going through with it !

[url][/url]


- Dec 2 - http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_1c1fe1ca-...

- Dec 1 - http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_78a7e70c-...

" The law enforcement team working to clear the home of volatile materials consulted with
explosives experts across the country before deciding to burn the Via Scott home, Newman said.

Members of that team, which include the county's bomb squad and hazardous materials officials, were not
available Wednesday to eleaborate on their decision, said Jan Calswell, spokeswoman for the county
Sheriff's Department.

Authorities held a town hall meeting Tuesday night in San Marcos, though some in attendance said
they left without a clear understanding of why fire was selected to dispose of the chemicals"

- Nov 30 - http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/escondido/article_f2896617...

" Robin Martin, a resident who said he also lived near the home, stood up and angrily left the meeting,
saying. " I'm out of here because you guys have no clue what you're doing."

- Dec 1 - http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_dbd777ee-...

" Despite the removal of some explosives from the home, authorities say so much remains scattered
throughout the residence that the safeest course of action is to evacuate the surrounding area and
burn down the house.

To make that happen, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Wednesday declared a state of emergency in
San Diego County, freeing up state resources, including funding.

The state and county declarations issued this week will allow officials to sidestep enviornmental and fire
permits, seize property, rally state and federal resources and move forward with plans to destroy the
materials, said Ron Lane , director of the county's Office of Emergency services.

" The county's declaration gives officials authority to destroy private property in the interest of public health
and safety - without compensating the owner, Workman said."


Ever hear of " Block Busting " " Red Lining " " Eminent Domain "
" Transitional Neighborhood " " Urban Renewal "

These are all euphemisms for you're in the way of what " we "
who determine these things , deem to be progress - we want you gone.

Burning down the house is just a ploy and convenient opportunity - they know exactly what they're doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNnAvTTaJjM

Watch out you might get what you're after
Cool baby strange but not a stranger
I'm an ordinary guy
Burning down the house

Hold tight wait 'til the party's over
Hold tight we're in for nasty weather
There has got to be a way
Burning down the house

Here's your ticket pack your bag; time for jumpin' overboard
Transportation is here
Close enough but not too far, maybe you know where you are
Fightin' fire with fire

All wet yeah you might need a raincoat
Shakedown thieves walking in broad daylight
Three hundred sixty five degrees
Burning down the house

It was once upon a place sometimes I listen to myself
Gonna come in first place
People on their way to work say baby what did you expect
Gonna burst into flame

My house S'out of the ordinary
That's right Don't want to hurt nobody
Some things sure can sweep me off my feet
Burning down the house

No visible means of support and you have not seen nothing yet
Everything's stuck together
I don't know what you expect staring into the TV set
Fighting fire with fire

Burning down the house

.

Rosco Bodine - 4-12-2010 at 03:26

I would like to reserve final opinion for not having all the facts, just knowing
some of what has been published......but the impression from what I have read so far is, this scenario seems like there is a lot of media hyped sensationalism in play probably generating a situation response in excess of anything reasonably necessary.

Houses aren't cheap, and this sort of probably excessive response could be trading a problem with a probably deranged individual unsafely handling chemicals which would likely have become a self-destruct scenario, for a different problem with a rental property owner having a real gripe and adversaries who are not imagined. Exploring sovreign immunity / public domain ect. with a pissed off landlord is probably something that should be considered more than a trivial matter.

quicksilver - 4-12-2010 at 06:40

I'm in agreement with that. There are simply too many unknowns here to be jumping the gun and thinking that it's just the easy way out or that there is an ulterior motive, etc, etc. There may be some seriously stupid moves this genius made that put most everyone in a damnable position and the house is too likely to be a serious danger.
I would re-iterate that they can't use dogs as the place is to contaminated with nitrates, etc that the dogs would register on the doorknob! If the idiot DID stash other crap he most likely used the same logic and forethought that began this merry-go-round. There are too many risks and not enough facts.
HOWEVER: this is an abject lesson in the perils of renting a home...! Meth-heads, slobs, squatters and now loosers like this make renting a real risk.

MagicJigPipe - 4-12-2010 at 11:36

I think they should send in a robot to clear the explosives and then simply demolish the house. I can understand why they might need to destroy the house seeing as though there could be organic peroxides hidden in the walls that they could miss if they left the house standing. This could cause injuries to future renters.

Maybe it would be safter to burn the rubble after knocking it down with a wrecking ball?
Quote:

" The county's declaration gives officials authority to destroy private property in the interest of public health and safety - without compensating the owner, Workman said."


The fact that something like that is true in the United States means that this country is no longer the "bastion of freedom" it once was. If they don't give the owner some money we should start a revolution. A peaceful one... Flipping ridiculous.
Quote:

Meth-heads, slobs, squatters ... make renting a real risk.


How do these people make renting "a risk"?

[Edited on 12-4-2010 by MagicJigPipe]

Rosco Bodine - 4-12-2010 at 12:33

Maybe they could shackle the perpetrator into a wheelchair and bring him to the scene. Let the landlord and him spend some quality time alone in the house to get acquainted better. Probably after a few minutes of "enhanced interrogation",
the former tenant would voluntarily cooperate in pointing out any potential problems involved in clearing the house, hoping to avoid any further voluntary cooperation if anything there should go wrong.

The WiZard is In - 4-12-2010 at 13:31

Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe  


Quote:

Meth-heads, slobs, squatters ... make renting a real risk.


How do these people make renting "a risk"?



Some years ago NYC made landlords responsible for drug dealer tenants. If you
were notified by the city that a tenant was suspected of being
a drug dealer YOU were responsible for getting them out
or ... the city would seize your house - without compensation.

As was pointed out at the time this became law :—

A-The first thing the DD was going to do was stop paying the
rent... given it could take a year in court to evict them ...

B- He/they could/would trash the place. Under city law
a landlord cannot demand more then one months rent.
Trashed could be v/ v/ expensive to the LL.

C- A few months before a DD's had killed a NYC Police Office
sitting in his car guarding a house involved in drug dealing.
What chance would a LL have?

D- The city seizes a house from its owner for failing to remove
a DD. Turns out the DD had moved out 2-months previously.
The tenant on the first floor - a single mother with children
is evicted as the City now own the house. She, her children
and all their possessions are removed — dumped at the curb —
in the middle of winter.

Victims? Martyrs? Collateral damage? In the War on Drugs.....

Rosco Bodine - 4-12-2010 at 14:11

I've got it. Out there in mexifornia they say the illegals do the jobs that Americans don't want and won't do. Looks like a perfect opportunity to put that
to the test. Take a van down to the local "dayworker pickup location" and
hire the job done of emptying out the house. See how that works.

Sedit - 4-12-2010 at 14:13

Now this I like, either house gets cleaned out or a bunch of illegals go boom. Win freaking win!

Rosco Bodine - 4-12-2010 at 14:27

If they bring the perpetrator out there shackled in a wheelchair like I was suggesting, the illegals could discuss the situation with the former tenant,
appeal to his sense of civic duty with regards to the successful clearing of the structure. The appeal to the sense of civic duty might involve things like the convenient hammer and nails, and musings about how the mans testacles might look hanging on the garage wall.....how pruning shears could find imaginative new uses that very day, if there were any misdirections given by the person
voluntarily cooperating. Sounds like a plan to me.

madscientist - 4-12-2010 at 14:38

Illegals are in the same boat as us - decent people just wanting to get by... :(

How about they send some bank executives in?

Rosco Bodine - 4-12-2010 at 14:47

I have a boat myself and before decent people come onto it,
there is something decent people generally ask first ........

"permission to come aboard"

crazedguy - 4-12-2010 at 14:50

not all illegals are here to work the system and what not
but no matter what way you slice it they dont pay taxes
not fair to the tax payers

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
I have a boat myself and before decent people come onto it,
there is something decent people generally ask first ........

"permission to come aboard"

QFT

madscientist - 4-12-2010 at 15:42

If you're worried about falling wages, blame your employer. They're the one's that make the choice to cut wages and jobs, not illegals. Illegals also have basically zero access to our already small welfare system. Even as an American you usually qualify for nothing - without documentation as a citizen, you have almost no chance.

Their desperation is taken advantage of here. They are not hordes of brown monkeys looking to rape white women and white jobs.

I just can't laugh at the idea of using them like pigs have been used to clear minefields; they have been through more shit and have worked harder than just about anyone here, myself included. Whining about Mexicans trudging 1500 miles and through a blazing desert only to work minimum wage farm jobs that no one else will take, so that they may send money home to feed their families... it's absurd.

Rosco Bodine - 4-12-2010 at 16:19

I'll try to keep all that in mind next time I press 1 for English.

Sedit - 4-12-2010 at 16:51

I live where legal migrant work is the staple of much of the farm hands in the area and I must say they are indeed abusing the welfare system and I was told this by the workers themselves. I spoke with him about a lot of different stuff and he informed me that when him and his buddys come here they make sure to work below the min needed so that they can collect welfare. They then would apply for housing and the government would put them in a hotel for the summer.

This is legal immigration mind you and I doubt illegals are able to devise such a scheme since they would not have the same access to the system like these folks have. They bundle there money so when it comes down to it, ten enter, each only works about 2-3 days a week at the most, they have there housing, there food, and all other utilitys paid as well as supplement income from the state and then they go home rich men because those few days of work where equal to a week or more down home and they don't have any bills here. The farmer gets tax kick backs for working migrants and the workers don't have to work but one day of the week and spent most of the other time doing insane amounts of cocaine. Now the farmer can claim hes employed say 30 migrants to work yet in reality he only had enough work for maybe 5.

Im not saying this is the norm but it is what I have observed first hand staying in a hotel for one summer where they kept the migrant workers throughout the season.



Now back on topic, when are they gonna Blow up... errr.. burn down this house?

madscientist - 4-12-2010 at 17:02

I've seen otherwise a number of times.

Welfare in the US really is not what it's made out to be. It almost doesn't exist, at least where I am - here, if you have an income of $0 a year, you will qualify for $150 a month in food stamps at best. No cash, no health care, no rent assistance, etc.

Anyway, yes, we do need to get back on topic! :o

MagicJigPipe - 4-12-2010 at 18:03
Quote:

Welfare in the US really is not what it's made out to be. It almost doesn't exist, at least where I am - here, if you have an income of $0 a year, you will qualify for $150 a month in food stamps at best. No cash, no health care, no rent assistance, etc.


Yeah, my sentiments exactly. I've always wondered where all this free stuff is everyone keeps talking about. I applied for food stamps once and was denied because I couldn't find one of my check stubs. Before I could apply again I found a better job and didn't need food stamps any more.

My state has run out of money for "day care vouchers". I probably wouldn't use those anyway even if I had to because of the places they make your child go.

I've NEVER heard of rent assistance or just money for nothing unless MAYBE you are a single mother who makes under a certain amount per month. I knew someone once who got unemployment but that was only a total of $3000 for about 6 months.

Basically, what I've come to find is that if you have a three person family and both parents are working full-time, minimum wage jobs, it is close to impossible to get anything more than food stamps. The time I went in to apply I got the strange feeling that "racism" was being applied against me. Like, "What the f&&& are these WHITE PEOPLE doing here? They white, they got money". By the way, I hear the latter phrase at least once every few weeks (directly to my face: "Hey white boy, I know you got money!") It just shows how (negative?) stereotypes can exist even about the "dominant" racial group in a society.

Call me a racist if you will for saying that but it's the honest feeling that I got from how they were acting, body language, voice tone and what they were saying.

EDIT:

Back on topic. Is there anyone here who lives in the vicinity of this house? If so, let's see some footage when it goes up. Although, nowadays there will probably be 500 videos of it online.

[Edited on 12-5-2010 by MagicJigPipe]

Sedit - 4-12-2010 at 18:14

My state for someone that was 1/2 minority and 2 kids they received over $150 a week free money and $580 a month food stamps. Also heating assistance covered the oil bills. And 100% total health coverage, after splitting up with this person and adding an extra child I received no money and half the food stamps then a month later dropped my oldest son from the health care. They managed to catch the mistake that I was white to late and now I owe them $600 because they over paid me.

You where not wrong in feeling the racism because they are indeed racist. If you are a female minority you get ALOT more help then the average white joe that walks in who will more then likely walk out with nothing but a headache.

[Edited on 5-12-2010 by Sedit]

anotheronebitesthedust - 4-12-2010 at 18:23

Quote:
I knew someone once who got unemployment but that was only a total of $3000 for about 6 months.

Heh, once claimed unemployment for 12 months while making 50k at a regular job and probably another 50k on the side. Food banks, social services, disability checks, etc: nothing's off limits IMO.

Rosco Bodine - 4-12-2010 at 19:37

When I read the story about the injured gardener, the story just doesn't quite fully add up. At first I thought the house was probably gang bangers, and the injured gardener was one of a crew. The account of the injured gardener just sounds like a hastily contrived cover story. That got me thinking. I thought perhaps there has already been a covertly implemented operation "silence of the lambs" kind of houseclearing scenario, about which the public will never hear, and that something went wrong, which leads us now to "plan B" which is the house burning.

crazedguy - 4-12-2010 at 20:11

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
When I read the story about the injured gardener, the story just doesn't quite fully add up. At first I thought the house was probably gang bangers, and the injured gardener was one of a crew. The account of the injured gardener just sounds like a hastily contrived cover story. That got me thinking. I thought perhaps there has already been a covertly implemented operation "silence of the lambs" kind of houseclearing scenario, about which the public will never hear, and that something went wrong, which leads us now to "plan B" which is the house burning.

that makes the most sense out of anything ive heard about it

DDTea - 4-12-2010 at 20:17

Regarding the discussion of welfare, immigrants, etc.: personal accounts, especially ones that do not include names, dates, places, parties involved, or any actual data, are highly unscientific. It's easy to be a victim. Proving it with hard, statistical data that clearly shows unequal treatment is another issue entirely. THAT would be worthy of discussion, imho; anything else really isn't. Of course, that would be completely unrelated to the original topic and not worthy of discussion in this thread anyway!

Rosco: can you explain what you mean? Do you mean that you suspect that much of the explosive/hazardous material has been removed by the tenant himself and transferred to someone else?

At this point, it's really hard to tell if this was really a "hobby," as the guy's former wife claims, or if he really had some kind of criminal intent--e.g., transferring finished grenades to Mexican cartels or their US associates. To me, that seems unlikely; I just think they'd have more reliable, plentiful sources for their 'nades than some bum in the US. Less than 10 lbs of explosives hardly sounds like a "bomb factory" to me, as some people have called it.

Rosco Bodine - 4-12-2010 at 20:29

What I mean is that from the first we heard in the news about this story, it has seemed that we were getting the "press release" and not the real story.
Exhibit A: The perpetrator is a wanted (therefore a successful) bank robber
Exhibit B: The perpetrator is a licensed pilot
From those two things it is a pretty good bet the fellow isn't just a witless psycho
or "mad bomber" but had explosives as tools of the trade for tactical or
breaching purposes.
Exhibit C: The injured "gardener" .....yeah riiiight
Exhibit D: The "unsafeable" structure that not even the EOD guys will mess with.....sounds more like the place is wired, and the way it is wired gives them pause that the one who wired it knew what he was doing.

So yeah maybe it's all just my "conspiracy theory" but the news accounts seem really fishy about a scenario that seems to make more sense a different way. There may be an entirely different associated story that is being buried here under a mountain of disinformation bullshit.

[Edited on 5-12-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

Mister Junk Pile - 4-12-2010 at 20:33

Not meaning to be scientific. Sometimes one gets a gut feeling that can't be quantified without doing more work than is possible for oneself. Please don't tell me you are one of those that feels unequal treatment of a majority group member by a minority group member is impossible.

And I'm not exactly following you Rosco. I agree that the gardener story does seem like BS. But please elaborate about what you're on about.

gutter_ca - 5-12-2010 at 02:58

Seriously, this incredibly racist tinfoil hatter is a new mod? Oooookay, enjoy.

gutter_ca - 5-12-2010 at 03:13

Gas lines, water lines, foundations. What if there is a box of propane canisters in there? The primary explision(s) there could set off organics before heat degrades them. Emergency declaration gives them the power to destroy private property without compensation. I think this could be better thought out.

On the local paper page, people are upset. Others are calling them wimps for worrying about fumes and such. Wait, aren't the people we pay to dispose of bombs being the wimps here?

quicksilver - 5-12-2010 at 07:16

Realistically disposal of an IED is not running into a unknown scenario and risking your life. There is a great deal of background information and certain situations cannot be managed with a robot. Yes, people get paid for disposal and people get paid for dealing with lunatics but not for needlessly risking their lives nor that of others or their property. Remember that this is not in some isolated area. There are complications we may know nothing about.
We really do NOT know all the facts: that's the one fact we can utilize in an intelligent discussion of a problem of this magnitude.

Rosco Bodine - 5-12-2010 at 08:17

Quote: Originally posted by gutter_ca  
Seriously, this incredibly racist tinfoil hatter is a new mod? Oooookay, enjoy.


It's not racism to oppose the presence of illegal aliens in ones country. It is enablers of the problem who rename illegal aliens with euphemisms which would deceive about what they are, a deception that serves an agenda as all deceptions do, which is not a constructive agenda or else there would be no need for such euphemisms and deceptions at all.

That scenario with the house doesn't add up as being likely, or easily believable, the way it was reported. It seems more consistent with being a likely story, like a cover story. That's just a fact. Recognizing that fact doesn't qualify a person for a tinfoil hat. It is simply a perceptive observation based on reasonable grounds for incredulity, not having the whole true story .....which in fairness, they may not even know either.

Polverone - 5-12-2010 at 10:41

Strange, this thread isn't titled "contemporary American politics free-for-all."