Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Your favorite blasting cap design

Inner tube 15 cm long, inner diamater 7 mm with 0.5 mm thick aluminium walls and a solid, round end filled with 350 mg of - yes, very lightly pressed

SA.DS. The tube contains e-match and the rest is filled with mineral wool, sealed with epoxy. The outer tube is 15 mm inner diamater,

So your assembly is 15cm long and 1,5 com wide...
One can only wonder how big your main charge is

Or how you test a new EM.

If you really insist on several tubes:
Get a 6x4 mm tube and a 6x8mm
Get a 6mm bar.

Cut the bar in small discs: they will be your end plugs for the 8mm (outer) tube.
Cut your 8mm tube to desired length. 5 cm to 7,5 should be perfect. Place a disc at the entrance of one of these tubes then strike with hammer. You may need to heat to outer tube to place the disc inside. No glue or epoxy should be needed. Maybe a file.
Now fill that tube with the amount of secondary needed. Press or melt.

Cut your 6mm tube to the same length as your 8mm tube. It will protrude from the 8mm tube since you now have your secondary in it.
Find thick Al foil / use Aluminium from Al trays you usually get at take aways. Glue / metal epoxy this foil to one end of your tube, trim with scizors. Fill with primary / close as usual.
You may now insert the inner tube inside the outer tube or keep it dismounted until needed.
Since you can cut and load your outer tube to your heart's content it can be a detonator or a booster.

go to the hobby store you can get nice aluminium tubing that is 6mm od by 5.5mm id, just have to seal the end some way for the secondary side,

Get a bar of the same diameter and cut 2-3 mm discs. You can now also use a piece as a dowel to press your EM.
You might need the discs in place with a hammer or glue them with epoxy if precision isnt good.

Tkuze - 14-5-2019 at 01:44

These are all really great designs. Ill keep you guys updated on new designs. Continue to share yours. Id love to see pics.

Powerful, Safe, Reliable, Green detonators!

wessonsmith - 21-5-2019 at 05:25

So I guess I will weigh in here on how to make very SAFE and reliable and very POWERFUL #8 detonators. First, for all of you using Lead Azide, Styphnate, blah blah blah, STOP! Stop with the very sensitive primaries, PLEASE. If you are using HMTD, TATP then I guess you are looking for your Darwin award.

So there are two methods I use to produce very powerful detonators, one being a bit more challenging than the other. The first is the 300mg Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate (NHN), 200mg powdered ETN, 700mg Melt-cast ETN route. This is the easiest of the two to produce. Any tube, plastic(use 500mg NHN), steel, aluminum, copper, etc. can be used with equally great results. The only drawback with this method is that you have a temperature limit of 58°C(136°F) in which the detonator can operate. This temperature limit, however, isn't an issue for 99% of those playing with energetics, so that would be the one I would suggest.

For those of you who are interested in more exotic materials then you have the NHN / Sodium Nitrotetrazole(NaNTz) route. This is sexier because you are using a tetrazole and the upper-temperature limit in which the detonator can be used is raised to 180°C. What I love about this method is SAFETY. If you do your research on NHN you will see that NHN is 80x less sensitive to friction than Lead Azide but when you mix NHN with NaNTz (80/20) you get a VERY insensitive mixture. NaNTz(Dihydrate) is so insensitive that you can't set it off with hammer blows, try that with Lead Azide. The process for making the detonator is very simple. Intimately mix the NHN and NaNTz powder together by placing in a plastic container and shaking vigorously. I like to push the mixture through a plastic strainer a few times to really ensure a thorough mix. Press mixture into a detonator tube and place into a 107°C(225°F) oven for 4 hrs to drive off the 'water of crystallization' of the NaNTz and then you are left with a ready to go Anhydrous NaNTz / NHN mixture. Place 50mg of NHN on top of that to help the Visco fuse or electric match head to set it off.

A quick note on Tetrazoles. DBX-1, Silver Nitrotetrazole, etc. are about as sensitive to friction as Lead Azide is, so in my book, that's just too sensitive.

The beauty of the above designs is that the can sit on a shelf for a decade or more. None of the energetics used is reactive to aluminum, steel, copper, plastic, etc. They are "Green Primaries" and both can be made from access to eBay and Amazon. I have put a few links to some videos below.

NHN manufacture:
https://youtu.be/rPxdDSUGxo4

NHN/NaNTz very simple detonator (plastic)
https://youtu.be/qbfaFi6g1ew

Power comparison between NHN alone and then mixed with NaNTz
https://youtu.be/1wvZ5sFZqVA

Video just for fun. Firecracker mix 1.25g (NHN/ETN) heat treated.
https://youtu.be/vibSy1i8YC4

Manufacture of 5-ATz
https://youtu.be/5s2yq3_yWjM

2017 Patent process for making NaNTz.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/01/67/21/181df61...

Flawed Soul - 18-6-2019 at 17:47

I use old aluminum arrows, cut to length and crimp one end in the vise. They work well. The end that the nock attaches to is already sealed, that part makes great cap.

hissingnoise - 19-6-2019 at 06:05

I used to use aluminium (10mm?) freezer tubing, just crimped shut with pliers...

One time with RDX base with HMTD topping ─ the piece of builder's plank it sat on was chewed up, split in two, and I still found my original 3 inch piece of Al tubing ─ though it was now in the form of a very delicate, fine glittery 'lace fabric' of probably a couple of feet or more in area...

I'll havta get myself more active again, one of these days.

caterpillar - 19-6-2019 at 10:08

I formed a tube, wrapping aluminum tinfoil around a pencil. 0.5-0.8 gr of TATP inside. Cotton rope, boiled in a solution of KNO3. Then this rope was dried and put into liquid sulfur. Then wrapped with adhesive plaster. Pushed into that aluminum tube and fixed with the same plaster. Burned slowly and stable. Powerful enough to initiate a mix of AN+ ammonium picrate.

wessonsmith - 22-6-2019 at 06:52

I formed a tube, wrapping aluminum tinfoil around a pencil. 0.5-0.8 gr of TATP inside. Cotton rope, boiled in a solution of KNO3. Then this rope was dried and put into liquid sulfur. Then wrapped with adhesive plaster. Pushed into that aluminum tube and fixed with the same plaster. Burned slowly and stable. Powerful enough to initiate a mix of AN+ ammonium picrate.

You lost me at TATP. When anyone says they are using TATP, HMTD, Lead Azide. etc I say you haven't spent enough time to learn how to make safer more powerful primaries. I am not trying to be rude but just straight to the point. Yes, it is VERY easy to make TATP and HMTD but it's just as easy to seriously hurt yourself.

I got into energetics about 3.5 years ago and from the very start, I wanted to find a better way than HMTD and TATP. I did the research on those primaries and saw the potential for trouble. Not to mention the reactivity of those primaries.

Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate (NHN) is an incredibly stable, safe and very powerful primary.

XeonTheMGPony - 22-6-2019 at 09:09

LMAO Ya the industrial military complex hasn't don enough research, the Mining industry hasn't, you have the one true truth!

you lost all credibility a while back in my eye's so not like you could lose any more.

You do realize the toxic properties of high concentration of Nickle?

So ya, simple facts, there are reasons they are still Using Azide, that superseded Fulminate, and Terazoles are slowly working to replace Azide for green reasons.

Tsjerk - 22-6-2019 at 09:17

What is wrong with dextrinated lead azide? You only need a grain to set of PETN, of which you only need half a gram to set of ANNM

caterpillar - 22-6-2019 at 09:43

The White Devil (TATP) is dangerous, yeah, but mercury fulminate too. The rules are simple- use pure chems, HCl as catalyst (not H2SO4), make few grams. I made more dangerous things with TATP- well, if you say that I was wrong mixing ten grams of TATP with AN, I'll agree. But the small amount in a blusting cup can only throw one-two fingers away. No big deal. There is double salt- Ag2C2*AgNO3. Use it if you want- but do not forget to add a few percents of graphite. It is static sensitive.

MineMan - 22-6-2019 at 11:02

Actually Xeon. I can speak to this...

The mining industry and military does do a lot of research but they are too afraid of change (mining) or two slow to implement (military). For mining it’s pure economics, orica makes thier caps in Mexico and they have tons of LA, so they keep using it, they don’t want to have to change thier factory unless they need too.. The amateur will always have an adavatage in a sense. The mining industry needs to be pushed a lot, they don’t like change. Especially the blasting industry. It’s embarrassing.

In the military HNS is still considered an experimental explosive.. and we have had that forever.

I appreciate Wesson’s contributions.

XeonTheMGPony - 22-6-2019 at 15:09

if it isn't broke don't fix it. when one has a well understood system it should be slow to change, and only when there is good well defined reasons too. why allot of websites are crap, they add tons of garbage for the sake of change but no substance to it!

Main drive atm is the desire to reduce the use of lead compounds, and other heavy metals, Nickle is still a heavy metal

https://safety.lovetoknow.com/Nickel_Poisoning

https://www.environmentalpollutioncenters.org/nickel/

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=243&tid=44

So the need is still there for non metal primaries, to which tetrazoles are being investigated as plausible replacements.

All primaries are safe when handled competently, and all of them are extremely dangerous when handled incompetently. Some require more knowledge and skilled touch then others.

caterpillar - 22-6-2019 at 15:50

As for me, I have zero interest in green technologies and in replacement of heavy metals at all. Hunters kill thousands of ducks- and even if they miss their shots. Lead pellets fall down to the bottom of lakes, pools and so on. Ducks gulp them instead of normal stones. I have Ni-Cd and Ni-Fe accumulators, each of then weigh 25 kg approximately. And you really think that I'll be bothered about two-three gr of nickel (or mercury, or lead) that will be spread around due to my experiments???

Vomaturge - 22-6-2019 at 15:55

...can only throw one-two fingers away. No big deal.

I hope I am somehow misunderstanding this

That still sounds like nasty and irreversible trauma to me. Coupled with an "occasional" probability of it happening, it actually sounds more threatening than having a "remote" or improbable" chance of a more serious accident.

But that's just me, and I've never made blasting caps, so what do I know

Edit: the EPA limit for nickel ions in water is 100micrograms per litre. For lead, it's 15, for copper it's 1300, for mercury it's 2. So just because something is a scary, environmentally harmful "heavy metal" doesn't mean it's highly poisonous like soluble lead compounds or mercury vapor. And the vapor form will definitely result from these kind of experiments.

[Edited on 23-6-2019 by Vomaturge]

MineMan - 22-6-2019 at 20:27

if it isn't broke don't fix it. when one has a well understood system it should be slow to change, and only when there is good well defined reasons too. why allot of websites are crap, they add tons of garbage for the sake of change but no substance to it!

Main drive atm is the desire to reduce the use of lead compounds, and other heavy metals, Nickle is still a heavy metal

https://safety.lovetoknow.com/Nickel_Poisoning

https://www.environmentalpollutioncenters.org/nickel/

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=243&tid=44

So the need is still there for non metal primaries, to which tetrazoles are being investigated as plausible replacements.

All primaries are safe when handled competently, and all of them are extremely dangerous when handled incompetently. Some require more knowledge and skilled touch then others.

Nickel is no where near as bad as lead. And if it ain’t broke don’t fix it... that’s what separates the men from the boys... the men look for constant improvement.

I was almost killed by a cap nearly run over by an excavator... there’s a lot of room for improvement.

It statistics Xeon, and probabilities I rather limit the probabilities of an accident because we are human. We all inevitability make mistakes or take short cuts. I don’t understand why you are saying what you are saying...

XeonTheMGPony - 23-6-2019 at 05:13

Because some people go overboard with the "its scary" thing, as the one guy I responded to originally tot he point where they retard things. like OH&S (Occupational health and safety) Here the bs they make you jump through actually increases risk at times.

Improve yes, but then you only implement it when there is simply no other ways to further test it, takes time, till then you use the best understood system, as the better understood it is the less surprises you end up

Blasting is a dangerous job, all ways has all ways will (Rock blasting for roads here) this is where acceptable risk vs reward comes into play

His ignorance/fear of azide doesn't make it dangerous, the one handling it is the one who makes it dangerous, again the better one understands a compound they can mitigate the risks to an acceptable level.

To do that they need to study it in small amounts test it, work with it, then as understanding grows they then can mature to making use full amounts and then study cap designs and start building high efficiency caps using minimal amounts that are reliable so on.

" that’s what separates the men from the boys... the men look for constant improvement. "

All so separates the ones who get the job don in the mean time. you use the best tools that are known to work effectively, till there is a well tested and demonstrated alternative that is shown to be better.

caterpillar - 23-6-2019 at 10:21

Who wants insensitive primaries, may try calcium mitriminotetrazolate, described by Clapotke. But the synthesis is a multi-stage process. And this compound is hygroscopic, as at nearly all salts of calcium.

Rocinante - 24-6-2019 at 08:38

The idea of anything removing your fingers is ridiculous. Just compare your rib cage, lungs and your fingers. Do you think that a blast capable of removing your fingers from 15 cm away would leave you in a survivable condition - with the same wave reaching your lungs 35 cm away? Maybe... if you were right in ICU.

Every amputation is a direct result of fingers being mere centimeters (0 - 7 cm) from the primary explosive.

My prolonged blasting cap design avoids that. Just never let your fingers come close to a primary, Use tools.

[Edited on 24-6-2019 by Rocinante]

caterpillar - 24-6-2019 at 11:26

The idea of anything removing your fingers is ridiculous. Just compare your rib cage, lungs and your fingers. Do you think that a blast capable of removing your fingers from 15 cm away would leave you in a survivable condition - with the same wave reaching your lungs 35 cm away? Maybe... if you were right in ICU.

Every amputation is a direct result of fingers being mere centimeters (0 - 7 cm) from the primary explosive.

My prolonged blasting cap design avoids that. Just never let your fingers come close to a primary, Use tools.

[Edited on 24-6-2019 by Rocinante]

Where is your sense of humor, mate? Of course, you may lose your finger only when you hold a blasting cap and it goes off. However, there is one exception, caused by the design of industrial caps. They create a small cumulative jet and I read that one woman was killed with such jet when the cap was more than one meter from her.

wessonsmith - 26-6-2019 at 10:24

Tetrazole's are interesting but many are still way too sensitive relative to NHN. FYI, NHN is being used in the mining industry 20+ million detonators so far and as MineMan has pointed out the reason for adoption of new primaries isn't research it's not wanting to fix something that ain't broke for them. They have the infrastructure and machinery to make detonators based on Lead Azide and Styphnate and see no reason to change it. You on the other hand are an individual who doesn't have sophisticated machinery to protect you from the dangerously sensitive primaries you are playing with. Instead of trying to advance the community with safer better primaries you choose to continue to push the same unsafe and dangerous primaries with some silly twist.

I know you have lost the argument when you start comparing toxicity levels of Nickel vs Lead for the environment.

wessonsmith - 26-6-2019 at 10:30

What is wrong with dextrinated lead azide? You only need a grain to set of PETN, of which you only need half a gram to set of ANNM

For companies with the equipment to safely make detonators based on Dextrinated Lead Azide it's fine. For us at the individual level who are prone to make some mistakes, it is still way to sensitive. NHN is 80x less sensitive than Lead Azide. That is a huge margin. With NHN there is plenty of margin to make some sloppy mistakes and not blow your face off.

twelti - 26-6-2019 at 16:02

Aside from the toxic properties of Hydrazine hydrate used in the synth, it does not look as easy as one would hope to find sources for.

[Edited on 27-6-2019 by twelti]

MineMan - 26-6-2019 at 16:45

Trust me. This is the future. 20yrs from now everyone in the mining industry will be wondering why they used LA... the mining industry goes in trends and safety is a big one now, since they have traditionally been viewed as unsafe and dangerous jobs. But the safety trend is focused on the mines itself. Not the manufacture of the products. It’s a difficult game to get into, making detonators and there is tons of LA stockpiled.. plus the dets are made in Mexico...

For the most part LA is fine in a cap, until a dozer runs over it or a shovel hits a booster... but with those forces any primary and even most secondaries will “go”

But as smith said for us, there are better options. We should not use the mining industry as an example here... also mining is afraid of change, especially the explosive industry. Sure they do sexy research on laser and wireless detonators... but when it comes to the very basics they are frightened of change. I believe the best scientist are not, and that is what we are here at SM.

Smith is spot on. And is the only member I am aware of to make such detailed contributions with such few posts, instead of feeling threatened less welcome him.

It’s not all about years of expirence, it’s about insight and direction of thinking... and that’s why I belive Smith and Wesson is much closer to the mark.

Fortune belongs to the bold.

XeonTheMGPony - 26-6-2019 at 17:32

What is wrong with dextrinated lead azide? You only need a grain to set of PETN, of which you only need half a gram to set of ANNM

if you are that sloppy it is a mere matter of time till you remove your head or hand.

EM's you only get to screw up once if you're lucky you just lose parts.

Herr Haber - 27-6-2019 at 07:14

@Smith&Wesson: Do you have data / a source to support that NHN is 80 x less sensitive than LA ?
Not challenging your claim but since LA can be more or less sensitive depending on how much dextrine (or PVA) was used the claim cant always be true.
But even if it's 10 or 20 times less sensitive it would be worth the trouble of a more complicated synthesis.

Also, what's NHN initiating power towards PETN and RDX compared with LA ?
I have tables with LA compared with a few other primaries but not with NHN. It seemed to me that LA performed better on average than other primaries.

caterpillar - 27-6-2019 at 09:23

Are there some organic perchlorates with acceptable sensitivity, that can be used as primaries?

wessonsmith - 27-6-2019 at 10:06

Aside from the toxic properties of Hydrazine hydrate used in the synth, it does not look as easy as one would hope to find sources for.

[Edited on 27-6-2019 by twelti]

Hydrazine Hydrate is DANGEROUS but with a simple gas mask, gloves, eye protection, and some ventilation, it's very manageable. Sodium Azide is also very scary.

I got my Hydrazine Hydrate from eBay. Contact me for help.

wessonsmith - 27-6-2019 at 10:12

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

@Smith&Wesson: Do you have data / a source to support that NHN is 80 x less sensitive than LA ?
Not challenging your claim but since LA can be more or less sensitive depending on how much dextrine (or PVA) was used the claim cant always be true.
But even if it's 10 or 20 times less sensitive it would be worth the trouble of a more complicated synthesis.

Also, what's NHN initiating power towards PETN and RDX compared with LA ?
I have tables with LA compared with a few other primaries but not with NHN. It seemed to me that LA performed better on average than other primaries.

First, the synthesis of NHN is very simple, not complicated. From start to finish I can produce NHN within 45min. Check out the Wiki page. It has links to the sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_hydrazine_nitrate

120mg NHN will initiate PETN in a det tube. While LA will perform better on a very small scale, NHN is more powerful and will overtake LA as you increase NHN amount. When you consider the safety disparity between the two, NHN wins hands down.

[Edited on 27-6-2019 by wessonsmith]

[Edited on 28-6-2019 by wessonsmith]

wessonsmith - 27-6-2019 at 10:14

What is wrong with dextrinated lead azide? You only need a grain to set of PETN, of which you only need half a gram to set of ANNM

if you are that sloppy it is a mere matter of time till you remove your head or hand.

EM's you only get to screw up once if you're lucky you just lose parts.

You obviously don't understand the difference in sensitivity thresholds between something like LA and NHN, if you did you would stop talking.

twelti - 27-6-2019 at 11:21

Aside from the toxic properties of Hydrazine hydrate used in the synth, it does not look as easy as one would hope to find sources for.

[Edited on 27-6-2019 by twelti]

Will do. I did look on Ebay, and only saw one supplier (wishing I could just bu a small amount as it is not cheap). I'm still wondering if something like nickel or copper aminoguanidine perchlorate, with appropriate treatment to make it less sensitive, would be as good. I'm somewhat new here, but I'm guessing you would say that having a primary that is intrinsically less sensitive is better than one that is more sensitive but amended to be less so. Is that correct then? I really like the ease and relative non-toxicity of the aminoguanidine complex(s).

What kind of mask would be appropriate?

[Edited on 27-6-2019 by twelti]

underground - 27-6-2019 at 12:19

Have you ever consider an EBW device ? In my opinion it is the safest way to initiate explosives.

[Edited on 27-6-2019 by underground]

wessonsmith - 28-6-2019 at 04:10

Quote: Originally posted by underground

Have you ever consider an EBW device ? In my opinion it is the safest way to initiate explosives.

[Edited on 27-6-2019 by underground]

Very safe but impractical for most day to day uses for the average guy. The detonators I use are very safe to manufacture and use due to the relatively safe primary NHN. NHN can sit on a shelf for decades and not dangerously degrade like so many other primaries.

Microtek - 28-6-2019 at 12:54

In my admittedly limited experience with ANP (aminoguanidinium nickel perchlorate), it really isn't especially sensitive. Perhaps more so than NHN, but less than lead azide. Additionally, ANP has an advantage over NHN in that it reliably makes DDT in milligram amounts with only light containment. It behaves a lot like TATP (in this DDT regard only). When working on a small scale, that is very important.

MineMan - 28-6-2019 at 17:37

ANP is the bees knees. I belive it is insensitive enough to cast most worries aside, especially considering no more then 75mg is needed. The biggest issue is keeping 1 gram in a cup to take the 75mg from. Yes, it’s is the perfect primary.

Simoski - 29-6-2019 at 00:46

For the beginner, you'd be hard pressed for a simpler start to detonator design than that of a plastic drinking straw, sealed on one end, filled with a little hmtd and ignited with a fuse. Pros: simple, compact, no chemical incompatibility with the drinking straw, high VOD. Cons: synthesis of HMTD is dangerous for a kitchen chemist, sensitive to shock and friction.

Again, for the beginner, I suggest starting with low explosives, black powder and H3 in particular and build devices capable of detonation ( supersonic combustion ) from those! Once you have mastered low explosive detonation using confinement then move on to high explosives.

[Edited on 29-6-2019 by Simoski]

Rocinante - 29-6-2019 at 05:30

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

wessonsmith - 29-6-2019 at 05:57

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

Please listen to the above advice!!!!

I really think those of you who think that HMTD and TATP is a solution should seriously ask yourselves why you are settling? Why would you choose an explosive with so many negatives?

Just because something is easy, doesn't mean you should choose it. Then you compound your problems by making the det tube so flimsy and unstable. It's like you are telling Darwin, hey I want my prize?

[Edited on 29-6-2019 by wessonsmith]

[Edited on 29-6-2019 by wessonsmith]

Simoski - 30-6-2019 at 00:24

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

Good points Rocinante.

I love the idea of a detonator that has solid combustion products along with high heat output.
The thought that you've got lots of superheated supersonic particles flying out seems perfect to initiate the next more stable baddie.

Does anyone think a 20gram cored black powder rocket motor designed to fail will generate enough oomphf to initiate AN/ETN 60:40 ?

I understand that the combustion products are only half gas and that the VOD is only around 500 m/s ( 1600 ft/s ), but you also get superheated supersonic particles.....

Just read a part of a paper that shows confined sulfurless black powder burn rates being in the order of 1500 m/s ( 4800 ft/s )

"When confined in steel tubes (4 mm i.d.), propagation rates 1500 m/s were reported for sulphurless powders"

citation from: E. J. Rose and A. P. Hardt, "Black Powder - a Modern Commentary" Proc. Symp. Explos. Pyrotechnics 10th paper 6a(1979)

[Edited on 30-6-2019 by Simoski]

caterpillar - 30-6-2019 at 17:50

Quote: Originally posted by Simoski

Does anyone think a 20gram cored black powder rocket motor designed to fail will generate enough oomphf to initiate AN/ETN 60:40 ?

[Edited on 30-6-2019 by Simoski]

A detonator must produce a shock wave, mate. Once I used homemade black powder to initiate AN+Al+C mix. And I met with success, but later I failed and failed many times trying to repeat it. If you wanna device whom you can trust to- use normal primaries plus an additional amount of powerful explosive.

caterpillar - 30-6-2019 at 17:57

I read the very solid book written by Bagal https://www.studmed.ru/bagal-li-himiya-i-tehnologiya-iniciir... He said no such words about TATP like "the white devil", never use it and so on. The only problem he wrote about is that TATP is too volatile. Again- 0.5 gr cannot cause serious trauma. Or you think that TATP will go off just when you insert a detonator into a larger charge? Just at the same second?

wessonsmith - 30-6-2019 at 18:15

My position on TATP and HMTD is if that's what some people want to use, fine. But when they promote those substances as viable options for primaries, it's dumbing down the community.

caterpillar - 30-6-2019 at 20:31

My position on TATP and HMTD is if that's what some people want to use, fine. But when they promote those substances as viable options for primaries, it's dumbing down the community.

OK. But you should support your own position. What did you read, that made you sure that TATP must not be used? That it is extremely dangerous? Links, pls. Or describe your own experiments. Do you ever know, why HCl must be used as a catalyst, but not H2SO4? MF was widely used. What do you think about it? Is it safer than TATP or not?

Simoski - 30-6-2019 at 22:15

ALL primaries are VERY DANGEROUS, there is just no getting around it ! In some way or other it is easy to initiate them!
Perhaps it boils down to the lesser of the evils: shock , friction , thermal shock, static or flame sensitivity?
I would love one that is flame sensitive, but you can hit it with a hammer as hard as you like and it won't go off.... but that just seems counter-intuitive.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by Simoski]

Tsjerk - 30-6-2019 at 23:03

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

What do you guys do with detonators that they require to be sturdy? I used to prepare them, put them in a plastic lunchbox in between paper towels for transport and use them on side.

Tsjerk - 30-6-2019 at 23:17

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

What do you guys do with detonators that they require to be sturdy? I used to prepare them, put them in a plastic lunchbox in between paper towels for transport and use them on side.

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 05:30

Quote:

OK. But you should support your own position. What did you read, that made you sure that TATP must not be used? That it is extremely dangerous? Links, pls. Or describe your own experiments.

A better way to answer your question would be for you to defend using energetics like LA, LS, TATP, and HMTD V.s. Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate(NHN).

Those energetics have been around long enough for anyone with an IQ over 100 and access to the internet to have thoroughly explored. TATP and HMTD are so easy to manufacture, and the precursors are so easy to get, that even 15 yr old boys in their mother's basement can manufacture them. So real-world experience with those energetics is commonplace.

You are asking me to reinvent the wheel by providing links and research describing the dangers and limitations of these energetics, all of which have been thoroughly vetted already. The stats on NHN are available for anyone to read and I think they speak for themselves. We help one another on SM by sharing new ideas and research and by challenging the status quo. In my opinion, and the stats back me up, LA, LS, HMTD, and TATP are the status quo.

I stand by my previous statement!

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 05:50

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

What do you guys do with detonators that they require to be sturdy? I used to prepare them, put them in a plastic lunchbox in between paper towels for transport and use them on side.

Since I am using NHN I don't do anything special with mine. Even dropping my detonators in steel tubing down a flight of stairs won't set mine off. There is just not enough energy being imparted on the tube that would be transferred to the energetics to be dangerous. 9g det tube dropped 6 m would only impart .53 J of impact energy which is well below the 0% probability of ignition for ETN and NHN.

Now if you are using DBX-1, LA, LS, SADS, etc I can't help you. I am sure special precautions are necessary.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

XeonTheMGPony - 1-7-2019 at 06:34

You seem to be full of it, by even putting LS, and LA in the same area as TATP in the same line as HMTD says you have very little hands on experience or understanding of them.

Organic peroxides are unstable for the most part and far to sensitive, and their characteristic can self modify by sublimation degradation, radiation sources can cause initiation. Never mind how impurities may further make them so unstable as to detonate in the mother liquor.

Proper built dets can be run over by a tank and for the most part will not go off, Minmans experience is a rare one (I have seen boxes of electrical fired units driven over by full sized excavators no bangs, ground was hard soil with granite rock, (Needles to say such events are bad on many levels and some people got into very very big trouble over those incidences, but it shows the level of inherent safety of the design)).

Very carefully prepared organic peroxides with well purified reagents will appear to behave well, but even then must be very carefully handled.

Well prepared Azide and Styphnate are no where near as sensitive and are completely stable, with shit tons of documentation on what grain type will be sensitive to what impulse.

All so tables on pressing pressures and its effect on grain size required to set of what type of explosive base charge, what environmental effect will have on initiation strength, effects of moisture.

So where is all this data for NHN? I am serious in this request. There is a reason why I say for amateurs to go with industry standards, they are there for a reason, then once you have the basics then move on to what amount to novelties.

This to me is a practical issue, an individual needs a safe reliable det with predictable behavior that is repeatable, this is the entire point of industrial standards, you do not want deviancy from the base line in industry.

and if a person is even remotely interested seriously they will take the time to make some basic specialized tools, and this is only required some drill bits, a press and some files, this can be found universally all around the world with some moderate effort.

Just because you use some thing that is insensitive is not an excuse to be sloppy, hence my warning, it is only a matter of time till you do your self grave harm if you handle your materials sloppily no matter how insensitive they are (I see it blew over your head though)

I do not personally give a crap what you use, what I do care about is honest and accurate distribution of knowledge, you add in hysterics to it is not helpful, especially to the point of a predictable well understood and proven to be as safe as it gets det system that is predictable and guaranteed to work when basics are followed

and I see my point about toxicity blew over your head as well, This is the stronger driving principle in industry is to eliminate heavy metals, period, This is why there is heavier interest in Tetrazoles as a desired replacement for green generation initiators

So how about we trade in your (as it appears to my eyes) hysterics over sensitivity and go with some more understood nuance and understanding about each individual substance and proper material handling practices and procedure, as no amount of insensitivity will correct for ones poor handling!

(That was my whole beef with you is the hysterical way you lump in well understood industry standard primaries with that of organic peroxides, and then further think that sloppy and poor handling is excused by simply using a less sensitive primary, then try to use an excuse to brush away the very real fact of Nickles toxicity!!!)

As serious individuals, one must start at handling:
- you must know how to competently handle the materials you use with respect not fear, you do this by reading as much technical literature you can get your hands on, then thoroughly test every batch for the perimeters you will be working under

- you should understand the basic principles of design and why they do it as they do
- you should understand the risk to reward ratio for each route
- you should procure tools required for the final chosen system.
- you should be diligent in each step to be clean and well organized in your production, with well defined steps to mitigate any risks (No matter how insensitive you believe the primary to be)

As I demonstrated in other threads risk mitigation is achieved by pressing a separate primary pellet that is stand alone in its own housing, then you press your base charges separately, and then your E-Match for electrical style or primer cup for fuse.

When ready the pellet is pressed in with much less force then either of the two first stages, then the e-match or primer cup, this is how for the most part commercial det's are made

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 07:02

Quote:

As I demonstrated in other threads risk mitigation is achieved by pressing a separate primary pellet that is stand alone in its own housing, then you press your base charges separately, and then your E-Match for electrical style or primer cup for fuse.

Thank you for that very longwinded reply. I guess you have missed the basic point I am making. LA, LS, HMTD, SADS, TATP are all
VERY sensitive primaries. To be very clear so that you don't misunderstand, TATP and HMTD are what people who lack common sense use!

I am starting to get a little annoyed with some of you on continuing to promote these outdated primaries. We here at SM will only advance the community when we look for better, SAFER ways. What you offer is a twist on mitigating the danger by some multistep elaborate process that still requires the use of, oh yeah, VERY SENSITIVE primaries!!!!

Stop the madness.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 07:18

Quote:

So where is all this data for NHN

Are you kidding me???? You can't do a simple google search for Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate??? Really????

I am sorry, my job is not to provide every pertinent fact about something every time I make a post. If that was the requirement, our communication would be impossible. If you don't have the ability to do the research for yourself then you don't have either the intelligence or more importantly the seriousness to be playing with energetics, PERIOD.

NHN is being used by the mining industry as we speak, 20+ million detonators to date, so it's not a novelty. My goal with the introduction of NHN and the very detailed video I produced on how to PROPERLY manufacture it was to bring it to the SM community so that the average SM member wouldn't view it as a novelty as you put it.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

XeonTheMGPony - 1-7-2019 at 07:33

Yes I can but you are the one making the positive claim thus it is on you to at least cite one or two good sources.

Yes it is indeed your job when you make claims on a site, look up burden of proof. I have all ready posted here on lead azide and data on caps. and of toolage, and of methods

Industrial terms that is still in novelty stage! Oh and I used the magic google box and the few reports I found it was compounded with lead azide ( I do enjoy irony)!

So again cite some info, upload it to the library

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 07:40

Quote:

There is a reason why I say for amateurs to go with industry standards, they are there for a reason, then once you have the basics then move on to what amount to novelties.

That is the silliest thing I have read in a long time. So you think amateur chemists, which I count my self as one, should start with highly sensitive primaries like LA? Not to mention the very deadly and poisonous precursor Sodium Azide? Yes, Hydrazine Monohydrate is poisonous and deadly but those concerns are easily mitigated by using a simple gas mask and proper ventillation. It's much easier to have a serious accident with Sodium Azide than it is with Hyrdazine Monohydrate. From working with it as a precursor to disposing of it.

The fact that you think NHN is a novelty is very telling. It suggests to me that it is you that hasn't done the research. I, on the other hand, understand very well all of the other primaries, HMTD, LS, TATP, SADS, etc. It was through this understanding that I chose to dig deeper and found NHN. I realized early on that those other primaries were just way too sensitive for the individual handloading detonators to use.

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 07:53

Yes I can but you are the one making the positive claim thus it is on you to at least cite one or two good sources.

Yes it is indeed your job when you make claims on a site, look up burden of proof. I have all ready posted here on lead azide and data on caps. and of toolage, and of methods

Industrial terms that is still in novelty stage! Oh and I used the magic google box and the few reports I found it was compounded with lead azide ( I do enjoy irony)!

So again cite some info, upload it to the library

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]

For the sake of argument, I am going to do this one last time. Here are the pertinent facts on NHN.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1NkeJPoo07sqGVsAMWddR...

Here is the link to the synthesis video.
https://youtu.be/rPxdDSUGxo4

I would be very interested in hearing your new found perspective after reading the literature.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

XeonTheMGPony - 1-7-2019 at 09:37

please post here google drive bs dosn't work for me, then I will indeed read the data compleatly

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 09:40

please post here google drive bs dosn't work for me, then I will indeed read the data compleatly

What are you talking about??? What is wrong with the (4) papers I have uploaded???

twelti - 1-7-2019 at 13:23

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

What do you guys do with detonators that they require to be sturdy? I used to prepare them, put them in a plastic lunchbox in between paper towels for transport and use them on side.

I'm with Tsjerk on this one. I also make mine in my lab, using straw, and simply transport outside for detonation in my test bucket. I may reinfoce it using strapping tape for more confinement. For this very controlled scenario, straws seem the best to me. Minimal shrapnel and all. If/when I get to taking them anywhere, I may rethink it. I wonder if a det transporter would be an option. Keep the light, minimal shrapnel, construction but simply use a larger rigid and insulated container to transport them. A bucket with sawdust etc. For industrial use, with less control over the environment, the aluminum tube is making sense though.

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 16:58

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

What do you guys do with detonators that they require to be sturdy? I used to prepare them, put them in a plastic lunchbox in between paper towels for transport and use them on side.

If you are going to use non-metalic tubes then why not use waxed paper tubes like the one I am using. At least it's more sturdy and you won't have shrapnel issues.

twelti - 1-7-2019 at 17:07

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

What do you guys do with detonators that they require to be sturdy? I used to prepare them, put them in a plastic lunchbox in between paper towels for transport and use them on side.

If you are going to use non-metalic tubes then why not use waxed paper tubes like the one I am using. At least it's more sturdy and you won't have shrapnel issues.

I have some on order actually. However, the straw probably has the least shrapnel, or so i would think. It is very thin and light. Also i have a bunch of different sizes that fit together nicely so far. I will try the paper ones though.

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 17:24

Plastic straws or anything like it that bends easily is completely unacceptable and extremely dangerous.

The same goes for low quality seals that can let crystals in (small cracks/openings).

What do you guys do with detonators that they require to be sturdy? I used to prepare them, put them in a plastic lunchbox in between paper towels for transport and use them on side.

If you are going to use non-metalic tubes then why not use waxed paper tubes like the one I am using. At least it's more sturdy and you won't have shrapnel issues.

True but the paper will lose so much energy after.5 m that it won't matter. The biggest concern for me would be the lack of rigidity of the drinking straws.

underground - 1-7-2019 at 18:28

I have ordered few 6mm ABS tubes, they where really cheap so i would like to see how they work. Maybe i can use them instead of SS/Aluminum tubes.

twelti - 1-7-2019 at 21:05

True but the paper will lose so much energy after.5 m that it won't matter. The biggest concern for me would be the lack of rigidity of the drinking straws.

I try to keep my hands away from the dets, though might be a little closer than that. I agree that the difference is small in any case. Ironically enough, I have also been using straws made of, wait for it... paper! I use those for the perhaps more sensitive initiator part. When I get the little red firecracker tubes I ordered, I'll compare the paper straws to those.

MineMan - 1-7-2019 at 22:14

There’s a lot a friction. And it’s aimed at Smith and Wesson. He is in the right. He has said nothing to incite anything and has spread wisdom. Please continue Wesson.

Xeon. My understanding is a box of sets run over by track equipment goes? The problem with my situation was we were on top of loaded holes?

Pyro_cat - 19-7-2019 at 20:47

I don't not want to do any melting or manual pressing. Seems to me it could be possible to somewhat copy the idea above and do both the pressing and set it off it the same time.

To add to the challenge make it happen with paper tubing/shrapnel free.

I think I have a good idea, but I am a little stuck. This idea needs work.

[Edited on 20-7-2019 by Pyro_cat]

XeonTheMGPony - 20-7-2019 at 05:21

please post here google drive bs dosn't work for me, then I will indeed read the data compleatly

What are you talking about??? What is wrong with the (4) papers I have uploaded???

I can't access them, I have google heavily disabled on well every thing.

You simply upload to the board directly

XeonTheMGPony - 20-7-2019 at 05:43

Pressing is a safe simple process providing you have taken your time to understand the process, and make some basic tooling.

ATM I use the massively more dangerous method known as tamping (DO NOT USE LESS YOU HAVE GREAT DEAL EXPERIENCE IN HANDLING AND ACCEPT THE RISK), because I need to get a good press still, yet not a single accident, not by magic, the safety is in you, not the chemical.

Tamping: Packing by repeat light impacts to desired density
Pressing: One long stroke with great pressure to desired density

Using friction modifiers and the speed at which you press all play a role.

Using carefully made pressing rods (I use a quality nail that I have filed and polished to the proper dimension and shape with a paper bushing to keep it well centered over its stroke)

So it really doesn't matter what primary you use if you handle it haphazardly. You need to just well understand the material you are using, and take rigorous quality control from the very starting synthesis to end product.

Handle any energetic material as if a fly will set it off, be clean and care full, use purpose made tools and maintain them, and you will be unlikely to ever have an accident (Do not become complacent how ever)

Never handle material when you are tired or hungry or even need to use the bathroom, 100% of your mind needs to be on task. Take breaks often to keep the mind fresh and awake.

Plan every thing out ahead, do every thing in sequential batches, and isolate each step to ensure no mistakes are made.

for good repeatability and reliability be as accurate as possible in weights and pressing force.

Pyro_cat - 20-7-2019 at 10:21

Pressing is a safe simple process providing you have taken your time to understand the process, and make some basic tooling.

Thanks for the reply. Lots of good stuff.

For tooling could make a pressing/tamping device and rig it to get the job done from a distance behind shielding with a pulley and rope. Second rope to pull the rod out. Quality Paracord is good stuff. Even kite string.

Miniature drop hammer pile driver.

[Edited on 20-7-2019 by Pyro_cat]

caterpillar - 20-7-2019 at 11:22

A pencil is good for pressing. Protective gloves, of course. Think where is this pencil is about to fly when (and if) the charge goes off.

Pyro_cat - 20-7-2019 at 13:01

A pencil is good for pressing. Protective gloves, of course. Think where is this pencil is about to fly when (and if) the charge goes off.

And wear earmuffs too, glad I did when I decided to see what happens if you melt a pinch in a spoon and then light it. The propane tank on the torch rang like a bell from that pop. That would have hurt. Very first hammer test, half a match-heads worth an ear ringer, lets get the ear muffs now.

Gloves or no gloves I am not holding it and disturbing it at the same time but how much pressing does this need ? The word pressing implies lots of force, like pressing in a bearing, you don't just tap it in.

MineMan - 20-7-2019 at 13:12

You cannot do your idea above pyro cat because the compressive wave is out run by the detonation wave. You would need the reverse for that to happen.

There are reports of nitromethane’s VOD being 7500m/s when a compression wave is followed by a shock strong enough to initiate the material. So...maybe in theory your concept is possible after all. But you would have to find a way to send a compressive wave through the material that is not strong enough to detonate it and then detonate it while that wave is still active. Certainly a concept worth pursuing for larger charges to increase VOD... but not for a cap. It should be as simple as possible.

caterpillar - 20-7-2019 at 14:07

A pencil is good for pressing. Protective gloves, of course. Think where is this pencil is about to fly when (and if) the charge goes off.

there is no need in super-pressing. A few kilos is enough. I read that the normal density is something about 1 gr per cm^3. There is such thing as overpressing- overpressed primaries lose its ability to initiate.

XeonTheMGPony - 20-7-2019 at 15:00

A pencil is good for pressing. Protective gloves, of course. Think where is this pencil is about to fly when (and if) the charge goes off.

That is only MF and usualy is in the 40Ksi range

20ksi is the usual pressure for the base charge

The term is Dead pressing

[Edited on 20-7-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]

Pyro_cat - 21-7-2019 at 23:01

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan

You cannot do your idea above pyro cat because the compressive wave is out run by the detonation wave. You would need the reverse for that to happen.

There are reports of nitromethane’s VOD being 7500m/s when a compression wave is followed by a shock strong enough to initiate the material. So...maybe in theory your concept is possible after all. But you would have to find a way to send a compressive wave through the material that is not strong enough to detonate it and then detonate it while that wave is still active. Certainly a concept worth pursuing for larger charges to increase VOD... but not for a cap. It should be as simple as possible.

You need to be careful with this stuff.

A soliton wave was a confined energy phenomenon that traveled at faster-than-light speeds, with potential applications in spacecraft propulsion.

Although the test began promisingly, displaying a 98% energy transfer efficiency of the soliton wave that was 450% more efficient than the Enterprise's own warp engines, the wave unexpectedly destabilized and manifested a subspace distortion that destroyed the test ship and damaged the Enterprise. Dr. Ja'Dar believed that a transient power imbalance was responsible.

The Enterprise subsequently found that the wave was accelerating towards Lemma II, gaining energy in the process. It was estimated that by the time the wave arrived it would contain enough energy to destroy most of the planet. The wave had grown too powerful for the Lemma II facility to dissipate, but the Enterprise was able to disrupt the wave by detonating five photon torpedoes directly in front of it.

Anyway,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soliton

I had the idea, then I lost it posting the above messing around.

[Edited on 22-7-2019 by Pyro_cat]

Pyro_cat - 23-7-2019 at 08:50

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan

Well then picture a fireworks mortar shell upside down in the tube, the lift charge pressing down is the compression then the fire to main charge is the initiator. Of course the time delay of all this would have to be significantly shortened.

Pyro_cat - 26-7-2019 at 18:53

Rudolf Diesel invented the pressure-ignited heat engine, adapting the internal combustion engine so that a spark is no longer needed to ignite... and was inspired by the fire piston.

Here is the above in this video https://youtu.be/o-tOYz_-YII?t=388

So that's my untested and unfinished favorite design idea. Pretty much the same idea all along from the gun fission pic, mortar upside down in the tube to this. Would still have to engineer a force to press the piston down but I would imagine placing a primary inside this fire piston thing would melt cast and then ignite it at the same time.

I am never building or testing this but theoretically it should work. If anyone does bump the thread and let me know.

XeonTheMGPony - 27-7-2019 at 19:27

Rudolf Diesel invented the pressure-ignited heat engine, adapting the internal combustion engine so that a spark is no longer needed to ignite... and was inspired by the fire piston.

Here is the above in this video https://youtu.be/o-tOYz_-YII?t=388

So that's my untested and unfinished favorite design idea. Pretty much the same idea all along from the gun fission pic, mortar upside down in the tube to this. Would still have to engineer a force to press the piston down but I would imagine placing a primary inside this fire piston thing would melt cast and then ignite it at the same time.

I am never building or testing this but theoretically it should work. If anyone does bump the thread and let me know.

Take that piston and press it slowely down and see what happens

Pyro_cat - 28-7-2019 at 07:29