Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Help with CHP

Help with CHP

Brightthermite - 26-6-2019 at 22:16

Hey everyone I am new to this forums but have been tinkering with this kind of stuff for awhile. I recently tried to make some CHP per LL video. I am using lab ammonium hydroxide (28-30%). CuO Hexamine and NH4ClO4 where all purchased from pyrotechnic websites so I am assuming they are pure.

When I try this synthesis I get small yields around 5 and 6 grams, much less then the expected 10. The solution itself looks like the same colors as what I have seen in videos. But when I filter it the salt is dark purple blue. After reading the "tetraamine copper perchlorate" thread I am under the impression that it is suppose to be a dark purple blue? I am pretty sure this is unreacted CuO. I saw on a comment on the video that it could have to do with the CuO purity. Any idea how I can check he purity?

One gram in straw of my CHP will not explode like in Darians video, it just burns. However it is snappy with a hammer.

So I included some picture to hopefully help whats going on. All caps that were used were made according to the Berta video except with a bit of flash powder placed on top for the reason stated above. The plate is 3 mm thick.

Thanks everyone, and sorry for the boat load of info and questions I have just been at this for awhile and was getting frustrated.

Brightthermite - 26-6-2019 at 22:18

Brightthermite - 26-6-2019 at 22:21

MineMan - 27-6-2019 at 14:47

I have never never had any luck using CuO. Only some of it reacts and I have yet to figure out how to effectively separate the rest, since water destroys this product. Make it with copper wire instead and you will have success.

Don’t have your flash powder contact the CHP or TACP it reacts with Al. To see what I mean place some on Al foil and heat to 100C.

Brightthermite - 27-6-2019 at 18:53

I wasnt aware that it reacts with Al thank you. I try to keep a layer of plastic rap in between things like that. Using copper wire do you get expected yields?

MineMan - 28-6-2019 at 18:11

Quote: Originally posted by Brightthermite

I wasnt aware that it reacts with Al thank you. I try to keep a layer of plastic rap in between things like that. Using copper wire do you get expected yields?

Yields are poor because TACP I soluable in ammonia.

Brightthermite - 29-6-2019 at 11:37

More cooling then. Would leaving the lid open allow the solution to evaporate off and leave the salt?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-7-2019 at 10:56

According photo is your crystalls really dark. Too much dark blue. Almost black I see. Somewhere is error. You can try firstly prepare pure TACP. In method from video ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERevYEszAwo
And after add hexamine 6% + AP 6% + 88% TACP (dry compounds weighing) And mixing under a few drop of ammonia water as porridge consistency. Drying at 50C, create grain 2x2 mm. Thats all. This method give almost identical properties as method CHP video. Material must have properties (before filling) as in end of video CHP. Thus 0,3 gramms in alu foil (6 - 10 layers approx) should by detonatable by slowly heating by the candle. Or even less of amount 0,2g..... :cool:

---Do not use Aluminium powder in cavity---

[Edited on 5-7-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Flawed Soul - 10-7-2019 at 13:50

Wow, I was having the same problems as brightthermite. This helps a lot. Thanks.

Flawed Soul - 19-7-2019 at 15:25

I did the TACP synthesis from the video and added the hexamine and AP later like you described, the product turned out great. Thanks LL.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 20-7-2019 at 21:36

I thank you, that was successful. This confirms that the laws of nature are the same throughout the world..... :cool:

...LL

Brightthermite - 20-7-2019 at 21:59

Flawed Soul, did you get the yield you were expecting using this method? And just for the sake of information, my CHP with large amounts of CuO in it detonated when a cap was used.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 21-7-2019 at 03:08

Yields in metod copper wire - roll container are always high. Usually on inserted dry 30g NH4ClO4 (AP) are 30 - 36g dry TACP. According quality process of cooling - separation. And by quality of setting of entire process. Best thickness of copper wire is 1,25 mm and weight 12g. Long 90 cm I estimate. After reaction is weight of wire 3 - 4g. The excess of described shaped metal is important for exact run of reaction. 1 - Because wire is possible watching easy and estimate end of process. 2 - thin wire automatically decrease speed of reaction and hold temperature between 20 - 25 C. 3 - the wire is easy remove from solution. Rolling container is it most easy method how to obtain TACP. In cause if you have not a big storages of pure CuO powder.... :cool:

...LL

Flawed Soul - 24-7-2019 at 09:21

Brightthermite, I didn't weigh it, I was more interested in trying to get it to come out right. I did get a good bit more using the wire method than the previous method I used that left me with a large amount of unreacted CuO.

hedgehog - 5-5-2020 at 06:52

My first post here. Very happy to be online with all you knowledgeable folks. Been messing with this stuff for years (HMTD, R-Salt, SADS, etc.) trying to make a reliable detonator.
Especially excited about synthing some CHP. Would it be possible to utilize potassium perchlorate versus the ammonium? I have plenty of KClO4 and was wondering if you could use a stoichiometric amount of it and obtain CHP that way. Possibly mix it in a solution of sodium hydroxide first? Not sure if the potassium will work in the schweizer's or not. LL or anyone please let me know. Thanks.

IrishJeremy - 30-12-2020 at 19:18

I asked LL the same thing on YouTube. KClO4 won't work, but NaClO4 will. Good luck with it!

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-1-2021 at 01:53

Most frequently asked question in the production of TACP: Is it possible to use KClO4 ..? .... Answer: It is not possible to use KClO4. Here is a video of what will happen: From 5:20 ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0pyL1VYLT8&t=325s

The most efficient method for preparing TACP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERevYEszAwo

The most efficient way to produce CHP: Reagents:
TACP ................. 4.4g
Hexamine .......... 0.3g
NH4ClO4 .......... .0.3g
Am.wat.25% ...... 1.0g (variabile 0.3 - 1g)

Procedure:
All 4 compounds mixing together to consistency porridge on inert surface. (stainles steel of Dog bowl and coffee spoon is ideal. (not use bowl your dog)

Heated on 40 - 50 C helping hot air gun setting on 80 - 120 C. And constant mixing. Smelly process. From porridge arises lumps during a 1 - 3 minute. Crusing almost dry lumps to consistency 5x5 mm parts, chips.

Using sieve, using spoon, and pressing through eyes of sieve 1x1 or 2x2 mm on warm surface 30 - 50 C. Shaking on surface 2 - 5 minute to dry crystalls.
Long drying process (for example 30 minute) decrease power of CHP. Not absolut dry CHP works well.
Very super dry CHP after 60 minute drying at 40C is weak. (partially decomposition, out of NH3 from molecule)
Done.
Storage in plast hermetic container at 15 C 1 years without changes.

[Edited on 2-1-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Jebby - 6-5-2021 at 07:24

I may just be stupid but quick question is TACP a reagent for making CHP, or is TACP an explosive itself?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 6-5-2021 at 14:22

TACP is power explosive itself. And because his OB is + 14,5, is possible add some fuel. Best is hexamine, which is stabille in molecule TACP or in mixture with TACP. Because TACP is very alkaline. TACP + hexamine (3-7%) = CHP.
Others fuels, for example nitrocellulose or aluminium and next, can be in mixture with TACP unstable.

Jebby - 7-5-2021 at 06:03

Okay thank you LL

Laboratory of Liptakov - 7-5-2021 at 08:47

If you will work with TACP or CHP several times and repeatedly, you will soon leave the fear of manipulating primary substances. CHP can withstand rough handling. Scraping of planchet from a warm stainless steel pan. Pressing into the steel cavity in the vice. If the cavity is open, the pressed CHP will only burn out like a rocket engine. From short direct flame. No transition to detonation. However, if the cavity closes, DDT will occur until to speed on 7500 m / s. Glowing wood chip causes just burn. (HMTD detonates straight away)

Nitrosio - 13-5-2021 at 23:40

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Gargamel - 9-7-2021 at 13:38

I wanted to try this for years, now I finally got my first batch of CHP ready

I did not use the detour via TACP but directly copied the CuO method as LL once presented.
For 10g AP I got 12,3g.

I found that the filtrate was black, there was still CuO, which of course passed through the filter (some 450mesh).
MineMan wrote something similar somewhere earlier in the TACP tread.
Seems to me the ratios are not ideal, a little less Oxide maybe...

How dry is yours usually? I did 5min at 50°C, then let it sit at room temperature for a few hours. It seems to be almost dry, very little ammonia smell... I wonder if that was too much. On the other hand, how would you light stuff thats not 100% dry, let alone have it in touch with a fuse...?

Since AL is said to be incompatible with CHP, does that mean Al tubes will be attacked on the long run?
I'm not worried about the tube, but the shelf life of the CHP touching it.

I prefer fuse caps for practical reasons, now the question is, what kind of fuse and prime mixtures are compatible... Being a pyro guy and rather no chemist, BP+ metal or Monocapa are typical choices...
If Al is not viable, MgAl is certainly not better - how about silicon?

[Edited on 9-7-2021 by Gargamel]

[Edited on 9-7-2021 by Gargamel]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-7-2021 at 07:24

First CHP...?.....Congratulaton.... :cool:

For reliable function of CHP is 5 minute drying process at 50C pretty enough.
Next drying on air is unseless. Best tube for final device is copper, because during a weeks create next crystalls inside. From slightly wet CHP. Therefore final pressed tube device copper - CHP hold CHP in fresh, with maximal reliability of DDT. Also, copper is heavy and has bigger resistance during detonation. Same thick Alu tube can fail from reason only, because is light.

Brightthermite - 10-7-2021 at 16:29

LL, so you press you caps with wet CHP?
I was never able to get the drying process to work well for me. One day air drying has worked amazing tho

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-7-2021 at 13:03

Not total wet. On first look the agglomerates seems dry. Same a like salt or sucrose in kitchen. Or ammonium nitrate. They are also not dry never. There is also content of water in crystals. In CHP is moisture of ammonia water, which causes easy DDT and his typical smell. For example, old CHP or too much dry CHP can be activated. A few drop of ammonia water, create dense porridge and dry again shortly. His DDT properties will renewed.

Brightthermite - 11-7-2021 at 16:56

Awh I understand now what you mean. My "air dried" CHP always smells strongly of ammonia and if touched with you bare skin feels how I could only describe as greasy (still having ammonia).

Gargamel - 18-7-2021 at 14:06

Had some nice firecrackers with 5mm papertubes.

Test in 5mm inner / 6mm outer diameter copper pipe failed

PETN @ 500psi
CHP @ 200psi
CHP @ 80psi
CHP @ 20psi around the fuse

The PETN left a white disk on the witness plate, some blue streaks indicate the the CHP did no go DDT...

Maybe 0,5mm wall thickness was too optimistic

[Edited on 18-7-2021 by Gargamel]

Brightthermite - 18-7-2021 at 15:47

Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel

Had some nice firecrackers with 5mm papertubes.

Test in 5mm inner / 6mm outer diameter copper pipe failed

PETN @ 500psi
CHP @ 200psi
CHP @ 80psi
CHP @ 20psi around the fuse

The PETN left a white disk on the witness plate, some blue streaks indicate the the CHP did no go DDT...

Maybe 0,5mm wall thickness was too optimistic

[Edited on 18-7-2021 by Gargamel]

Ill note that I do not get very fancy with pressing my CHP. I load the .7 grams in maybe .15 grams at a time and just press it flat by hand. The CHP grain size is pretty fine tho, like fine sand. I believe some of the voids are what help it DDT.

MineMan - 19-7-2021 at 12:55

You need 1-2mm grains. Like bright said, needs to be like sand. That test is not too optimistic, I think LL showed it works in a thin aluminum tube too. I bet carbon fiber arrow works great as well. To be blunt, CHP is pretty fool proof, if it’s not working it’s not the finesse, rather a major detail. Only one I can think of is grain size.

Gargamel - 20-7-2021 at 12:23

Mine are definitely smaller, more like 600µ or so.
Fine sand...

May I ask what mesh size sieves you guys used?

Also I found my crystals weren't much bigger before I granulated. Although I gave them a slow cooldown, ample time to grow...

Also I found that the crystals aren't very tough, or at least it felt like it... I felt that there was nothing more to compress at values much lower than LL gave in his videos. The voids between the granules seem to collapse rather quickly...

edit:
Recrystalisation from concentrated spirit of ammonia seems to be the right way...?

[Edited on 20-7-2021 by Gargamel]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 21-7-2021 at 12:29

Again, much more important than grain size is the right way to prepare CHP. 4.4g TACP + 0.3g hexamine + 0.3g NH4ClO4. Moisten the ingredients with ammonia water to the consistency of the slurry. Rub to the consistency of mashed potatoes, without visible grains. Push the semi-dry slurry through a 2x2 mm sieve. Dry on a surface of 50 C for 5 minutes. Enclose in an airtight container. If the CHP is properly prepared, it also works in a 6/8 mm aluminum cavity. And only 2 densities are enough. 0.3g on 30 Kg. (50Kg) And 0.7g compressed to, for example, 5 Kg. (3 - 10 Kg). If you use PETN, you can simply mixing with CHP 1:1. And pressed into cavity for example on 10 Kg. However beware. CHP is alkaline compound. Can degradate PETN after a one week partially. Same conditions are for ETN. 1:1, heterogenous mixture.

Gargamel - 25-7-2021 at 01:03

OK, next time.

So - the CuO method is now "officially" discouraged?

MineMan - 25-7-2021 at 15:02

Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel

OK, next time.

So - the CuO method is now "officially" discouraged?

It does not make sense to me. Maybe it works with stronger ammonia, but…. I find it is impossible to separate out. tACP is really soluable, so if you let it sit too long in the mother liquid or trying to extract it, it’s a pain. You will end up with jars of blue liquid that you realize is too much work to tackle and all your AP is gone! Where did it go, it went into these blue jars. Maybe LL knows a way…. But

Brightthermite - 25-7-2021 at 18:13

Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel

OK, next time.

So - the CuO method is now "officially" discouraged?

Yeah the CuO method has never worked very well for me

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-10-2021 at 14:14

Ammonia water must be (for TACP separation) maximally concentrated and cooled to zero Celsius, or -10 C.
25% concentration of ammonia water (or higher) is the basis of success.

MineMan - 14-10-2021 at 23:33

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Ammonia water must be (for TACP separation) maximally concentrated and cooled to zero Celsius, or -10 C.
25% concentration of ammonia water (or higher) is the basis of success.

I meant separating TACP from CuO

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-10-2021 at 10:20

Oh yes sorry for my English. For example, a small amount of CuO in TACP 1-5% does not have a negative effect on energy properties. However, it is always better to use metallic copper, sheets, wires for the reaction. With an excess for the reaction of, for example, 100% relative to the stoichiometric weight. These can be easily removed after the reaction.

ManyInterests - 26-7-2022 at 00:29

I finally got my new platinum electrode, so I will be working on making sodium perchlorate to turn into ammonium perchlorate, which is still the last thing I need for CHP.

I do have a question about filtration of the CHP from the solution.

LL mentioned that a glass buchner funnel is best. I have a very good one... but how do I clean it afterward?

What if want to use a simple sieve. I know that coffee filters are useless since the solution will eat any and all cellulose. I did see LL say that a metal or plastic filter will work.

Will the coffee filter that I posted work to filter out the CHP and leave the unwanted stuff behind?

IMG_20220726_041947021 - Copy.jpg - 1.6MB

Laboratory of Liptakov - 29-7-2022 at 10:09

Of course, it will works. Crystalls TACP has usually size about 0,5 - 1,5 mm.

ManyInterests - 29-7-2022 at 14:36

Great, so I don't need anything finer.

ManyInterests - 17-9-2022 at 20:35

OK I decided to post here because as of this moment, I am going through my first ever CHP synth. My Ammonium Perchlorate isn't 100% pure, so I used LL's measurements but with 11 grams of AP, and 32.5 grams of 28% ammonia.

I used the same amount of CuO and Hexamine. But despite almost twenty minutes of room temp stirring there is no chance in color. I started heating to 55C with stirring on my mantle...

Edit: Blue! Gorgeous blue! It turned blue!

I just needed heating and it took a while for it to work out. I'm still heating it right now and giving it more time than what LL's video stated to make absolutely sure that everything has fully reacted.

Edit2: It appears to be fully reacted. A nice blue color! I kept it reacting and stirring for 25 minutes from 50 to 55C. I removed the stirbar and washed it. There is some slight blackness on it, but I figure it is copper oxide... I can wash it off more thoroughly later. I am letting it cool down to below 20C before giving it a look and seeing what the result is. I will be putting it in the fridge (not freezer) later after covering it in cling film. Everything stinks of ammonia and I don't want that stuff where I store my food.

[Edited on 18-9-2022 by ManyInterests]

[Edited on 18-9-2022 by ManyInterests]

ManyInterests - 17-9-2022 at 22:56

I wanted to send this picture to LL directly, but I couldn't attach photos in U2Us. So I am doing it over here...

I have a great success!

After some reacting and letting it cool down nice and slow to 20C (from 55C) I do believe I have generated a nice crop of CHP. At least I hope I did. They are in the fridge where they will remain for much longer than 8 hours. Not the freezer, the fridge. LL's video didn't specify what to put it in, and I didn't know if it was a freezer or a fridge. But it shouldn't matter. Temp will drop to 0C or below.

This represents an entire summer's worth of work to get some Ammonium Perchlorate made! And while due to complications my yields were low (I only made 122.95 grams of fairly decent AP, and 22.23 grams of grams of somewhat lesser quality) But that was the only ingredient that was missing to make CHP.

Maybe in a year I will go at this again, with my newfound knowledge I will make hundreds of grams worth of ammonium perchlorate and do more stuff. For now I got enough for what I need. I'll make another synth or two of CHP and call it a day. I'll save the AP for the other stuff LL is making.

ManyInterests - 18-9-2022 at 07:50

OMG... I found a problem. I mentioned that it didn't turn blue after some shaking and stayed black until I started heating it? Well something else happened.

Despite remaining blue after cooling down to 20C (from 55C) when I took it out of the fridge, it was black again... what happened?

Edit: I was told this was supposed to happen? That it is a dark purple? I took another picture, but with camera flash

Edit2: Ok! some good news. As it warmed up, the blackness went away, the left over liquid turned blue again and the mass is also going purple. Very dark purple, but certainly not black.

[Edited on 18-9-2022 by ManyInterests]