Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Firecracker Mix ( high VOD binary composition)

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 09:22

Here is a link to the VERY impressive and relatively safe mixture. NHN and ETN when properly heat treated produce a very interesting, safe to handle, and stable binary composition. Mixed in the proper proportions the synergy between the two maximize the performance.

https://youtu.be/3HU6_bhXeks

Here is what the solid composition looks like inside the firecracker tube after proper heat treatment and once it has hardened again.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xePesyF4VLQkyfDQUZfJOAMNS3u...

And yes to answer the question will this firecracker set off my plastic, it will.

here is another video showing the firecracker's power from a different perspective. Notice how jagged the can's edges are. That's high brisance.

https://youtu.be/4nZmQ6DULxU

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

Tsjerk - 1-7-2019 at 12:02

How do you know it detonates?

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 12:26

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
How do you know it detonates?


The damage it does to a piece 2 x 4 wood is similar to the damage that my #8 detonator does. I have been detonating melt-cast ETN for 3 years and the explosive force that I witness is similar. I am sure you know the difference between detonation and deflagration when you see it, hear it, and feel it.

I encourage you to try the mixture, in the same ratio with the same temperature and time, then you can report back at the AMAZING detonation you witnessed:)

The reason I chose the cans and put them far away from the firecracker was to show the relative force generated. If I would have attached the firecracker to the can, the most powerful version would have fragmented the can beyond meaningful comparison. The most powerful version nearly cut the can in half at the distance shown. Plus you saw the damage that the NHN only did and NHN by it'self is considerably more powerful than flash powder. The difference between the NHN only and the most powerful version was night and day as the can's showed.

I should note that my #8 detonator is more powerful (700mg Melt-cast ETN, 200mg powdered ETN, and 300mg NHN) as compared to the firecracker (690mg melted ETN and 460mg NHN) but not by much.

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 12:57

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
How do you know it detonates?


here is another video showing the firecracker's power from a different perspective. Notice how jagged the can's edges are. That's high brisance.

https://youtu.be/4nZmQ6DULxU

twelti - 1-7-2019 at 13:14

Are you saying that this performs better than just the ETN? If not, then why not just use the NHN as a conventional initiator for the ETN, as opposed to mixing them together? In my experiments so far, I am using a VERY thin layer of inert material (Saran wrap or similar) between the initiator and charge, just to prevent any possible incompatibility. it is also convenient, as it allows me to make the main charge and primary in separate tubes and just slide them together at the end, after any pressing. The smaller initiator tube fits easily in the larger main charge tube so minimal force is required. Then i use epoxy to hold it together and add additional strain relief on the fuse. I'm a little paranoid about incompatibility with the epoxy however, and looking into non-amine hardeners.

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 13:19

Quote: Originally posted by twelti  
Are you saying that this performs better than just the ETN? If not, then why not just use the NHN as a conventional initiator for the ETN, as opposed to mixing them together? In my experiments so far, I am using a VERY thin layer of inert material (Saran wrap or similar) between the initiator and charge, just to prevent any possible incompatibility. it is also convenient, as it allows me to make the main charge and primary in separate tubes and just slide them together at the end, after any pressing. The smaller initiator tube fits easily in the larger main charge tube so minimal force is required. Then i use epoxy to hold it together and add additional strain relief on the fuse. I'm a little paranoid about incompatibility with the epoxy however, and looking into non-amine hardeners.


The firecracker is ETN so it's the same power however this is for my paper firecracker tubes only. My det tubes use Melt-cast ETN, powdered ETN and NHN all pressed one on top of the other. ETN and NHN do not negatively react with one another so no need to separate them. What I have done here is made the most powerful firecracker you can make which is safer to mix and load than flash powder. Even if you filled the tube with LA, this cracker would be more powerful, and that's saying something.:)

What makes it powerful is how the melting ETN and NHN combine to form a solid that when properly heated detonates with a Visco fuse.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

underground - 1-7-2019 at 13:23

Why does heating increase the power ? It removes traces of water or what ?

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 13:29

Quote: Originally posted by twelti  
Are you saying that this performs better than just the ETN? If not, then why not just use the NHN as a conventional initiator for the ETN, as opposed to mixing them together? In my experiments so far, I am using a VERY thin layer of inert material (Saran wrap or similar) between the initiator and charge, just to prevent any possible incompatibility. it is also convenient, as it allows me to make the main charge and primary in separate tubes and just slide them together at the end, after any pressing. The smaller initiator tube fits easily in the larger main charge tube so minimal force is required. Then i use epoxy to hold it together and add additional strain relief on the fuse. I'm a little paranoid about incompatibility with the epoxy however, and looking into non-amine hardeners.


I use this Epoxy with my det tubes. The Melt-cast ETN touches it. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006945SS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...

I have tubes that are 2 yrs old, no issues.

twelti - 1-7-2019 at 13:37

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by twelti  
Are you saying that this performs better than just the ETN? If not, then why not just use the NHN as a conventional initiator for the ETN, as opposed to mixing them together? In my experiments so far, I am using a VERY thin layer of inert material (Saran wrap or similar) between the initiator and charge, just to prevent any possible incompatibility. it is also convenient, as it allows me to make the main charge and primary in separate tubes and just slide them together at the end, after any pressing. The smaller initiator tube fits easily in the larger main charge tube so minimal force is required. Then i use epoxy to hold it together and add additional strain relief on the fuse. I'm a little paranoid about incompatibility with the epoxy however, and looking into non-amine hardeners.


The firecracker is ETN so it's the same power however this is for my paper firecracker tubes only. My det tubes use Melt-cast ETN, powdered ETN and NHN all pressed one on top of the other. ETN and NHN do not negatively react with one another so no need to separate them. What I have done here is made the most powerful firecracker you can make which is safer to mix and load than flash powder. Even if you filled the tube with LA, this cracker would be more powerful, and that's saying something.:)

What makes it powerful is how the melting ETN and NHN combine to form a solid that when properly heated detonates with a Visco fuse.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]


I'm not sure you answered my question though. is the mixed NHN/ETN more powerful than the straight cast ETN? ...and what is the advantage of it being solid? Does the density go up? Are you thinking of making shaped charges?

twelti - 1-7-2019 at 13:39

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by twelti  
Are you saying that this performs better than just the ETN? If not, then why not just use the NHN as a conventional initiator for the ETN, as opposed to mixing them together? In my experiments so far, I am using a VERY thin layer of inert material (Saran wrap or similar) between the initiator and charge, just to prevent any possible incompatibility. it is also convenient, as it allows me to make the main charge and primary in separate tubes and just slide them together at the end, after any pressing. The smaller initiator tube fits easily in the larger main charge tube so minimal force is required. Then i use epoxy to hold it together and add additional strain relief on the fuse. I'm a little paranoid about incompatibility with the epoxy however, and looking into non-amine hardeners.


I use this Epoxy with my det tubes. The Melt-cast ETN touches it. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006945SS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...

I have tubes that are 2 yrs old, no issues.

I like the putty for all kinds of stuff, but have been using a more flowing epoxy for dets 9the way i make them anyways). So far no issues, but i did read in Agrawal about some possible reactivity of amine hardeners.

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 13:40

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Why does heating increase the power ? It removes traces of water or what ?


No, the heating as best as I can tell creates a pores bone like solid that somehow allows the mixture to detonate. As my video shows, not getting the heating right will result in a failure. The one that was heated at a 200F performed worse than the one heated at 185F. If it's heated too fast the ETN melts in such a way as to ruin the porous structure which is allowing the detonation to take place.

Believe me, I was shocked when I saw it first detonate with the proper heat treatment applied.

Both powders are dry when mixed, so no water is present when heated. As you saw the non-heated version exploded but was very weak as compared to the heat-treated version.

Image of the poreous solid

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 13:44

Here is what the composition looks like inside the firecracker tube. Notice the porous nature of the solid. It's this porosity that allows it to detonate.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xePesyF4VLQkyfDQUZfJOAMNS3u...

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 13:50

Quote: Originally posted by twelti  
Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by twelti  
Are you saying that this performs better than just the ETN? If not, then why not just use the NHN as a conventional initiator for the ETN, as opposed to mixing them together? In my experiments so far, I am using a VERY thin layer of inert material (Saran wrap or similar) between the initiator and charge, just to prevent any possible incompatibility. it is also convenient, as it allows me to make the main charge and primary in separate tubes and just slide them together at the end, after any pressing. The smaller initiator tube fits easily in the larger main charge tube so minimal force is required. Then i use epoxy to hold it together and add additional strain relief on the fuse. I'm a little paranoid about incompatibility with the epoxy however, and looking into non-amine hardeners.


The firecracker is ETN so it's the same power however this is for my paper firecracker tubes only. My det tubes use Melt-cast ETN, powdered ETN and NHN all pressed one on top of the other. ETN and NHN do not negatively react with one another so no need to separate them. What I have done here is made the most powerful firecracker you can make which is safer to mix and load than flash powder. Even if you filled the tube with LA, this cracker would be more powerful, and that's saying something.:)

What makes it powerful is how the melting ETN and NHN combine to form a solid that when properly heated detonates with a Visco fuse.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]


I'm not sure you answered my question though. is the mixed NHN/ETN more powerful than the straight cast ETN? ...and what is the advantage of it being solid? Does the density go up? Are you thinking of making shaped charges?


So the whole point to this composition is to have something that can detonate in a paper tube. NHN pressed on top of ETN in a paper tube will not detonate the ETN. NHN needs stronger confinement for it to work. Straight melt-cast is stronger but you would need something like LA to set it off in a paper tube. I suppose I can use a chunk of this melted sold composition as the initiator for the melt cast but too much extra effort for not that much more power.

What makes this composition shine is its simplicity. Add the powder to the tub, press down and heat, that's it. It will detonate from a Visco fuse.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

twelti - 1-7-2019 at 13:50

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Here is what the composition looks like inside the firecracker tube. Notice the porous nature of the solid. It's this porosity that allows it to detonate.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xePesyF4VLQkyfDQUZfJOAMNS3u...

I assume these results are repeatable?

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 13:53

Quote: Originally posted by twelti  
Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Here is what the composition looks like inside the firecracker tube. Notice the porous nature of the solid. It's this porosity that allows it to detonate.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xePesyF4VLQkyfDQUZfJOAMNS3u...

I assume these results are repeatable?


I have tested 20+ so far and every time BOOOM! So, yes absolutely repeatable.:)

Tsjerk - 1-7-2019 at 13:53

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
How do you know it detonates?


here is another video showing the firecracker's power from a different perspective. Notice how jagged the can's edges are. That's high brisance.

https://youtu.be/4nZmQ6DULxU


Not saying anything.

Can you put finely powdered KClO4 / dark German aluminium powder (same weight) in the same tube and repeat the experiments? The fact it has high brisance doesn't convince me it actually detonates.

Edit: when you have an idea you forgot to post, you can use the "edit" function.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by Tsjerk]

twelti - 1-7-2019 at 13:54

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by twelti  
Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  


I'm not sure you answered my question though. is the mixed NHN/ETN more powerful than the straight cast ETN? ...and what is the advantage of it being solid? Does the density go up? Are you thinking of making shaped charges?


So the whole point to this composition is to have something that can detonate in a paper tube. NHN pressed on top of ETN in a paper tube will not detonate the ETN. NHN needs stronger confinement for it to work. Straight melt-cast is stronger but you would need something like LA to set it off in a paper tube. I suppose I can use a chunk of this melted sold composition has the initiator for the melt cast but too much extra effort for not that much more power.

What makes this composition shine is its simplicity. Add the powdered to the tub, press down and heat, that's it. It will detonate from a Visco fuse.

Ah, I see. I'm going to try my AQNP on some ETN in a straw. I think it would detonate it. Of course, it depends on the amount. I'm been using maybe 50 mg recently, sometimes up to 70, of AQNP.

underground - 1-7-2019 at 13:56

Interesting. Although CHP composition from LL is still very attractive. The only downside is the use of perchlorate salts but still better that hydrazine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV9Pv3Jdtak

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by underground]

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 14:01

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
How do you know it detonates?


here is another video showing the firecracker's power from a different perspective. Notice how jagged the can's edges are. That's high brisance.

https://youtu.be/4nZmQ6DULxU


Not saying anything.

Can you put finely powdered KClO4 / dark German aluminium powder (same weight) in the same tube and repeat the experiments? The fact it has high brisance doesn't convince me it actually detonates.

Edit: when you have an idea you forgot to post, you can use the "edit" function.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by Tsjerk]


No need for me to do that. NHN by its self is more powerful than finely powdered KClO4 / dark German aluminum powder so the fact that the heated composition outperforms NHN CONSIDERABLY would mean that it would also outperform finely powdered KClO4 / dark German aluminum powder.

Tsjerk - 1-7-2019 at 14:15

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  

No need for me to do that. NHN by its self is more powerful than finely powdered KClO4 / dark German aluminum powder so the fact that the heated composition outperforms NHN CONSIDERABLY would mean that it would also outperform finely powdered KClO4 / dark German aluminum powder.


Did you test it?

underground - 1-7-2019 at 14:31

1g of loose CHP will detonate w/o any confinement

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 14:47

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  

No need for me to do that. NHN by its self is more powerful than finely powdered KClO4 / dark German aluminum powder so the fact that the heated composition outperforms NHN CONSIDERABLY would mean that it would also outperform finely powdered KClO4 / dark German aluminum powder.


Did you test it?


No I did not test it. I am basing my assumption on one, the most powerful flash powder mixture that I know of was the US military’s M80 composition. Which had a reported .8 RE factor. FYI, the US military stopped using that composition because it was way too dangerous.

And NHN has an RE factor of 1.05 and the NHN/ETN composition mixture when melted has an RE factor of approximately 1.35. Are you suggesting that KClO4 / dark German aluminum powder has an RE factor greater than 1?



[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 14:56

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
1g of loose CHP will detonate w/o any confinement


I just watched LL's CHP video. I didn't see him detonate CHP in the open. Heated in Aluminum foil, it did detonate, but then again so will ETN.

My composition is detonating with Visco fuse only in a paper tube.


[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

underground - 1-7-2019 at 16:13

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by underground  
1g of loose CHP will detonate w/o any confinement


I just watched LL's CHP video. I didn't see him detonate CHP in the open. Heated in Aluminum foil, it did detonate, but then again so will ETN.

My composition is detonating with Visco fuse only in a paper tube.


[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTYNiabQl8w

wessonsmith - 1-7-2019 at 16:37

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by underground  
1g of loose CHP will detonate w/o any confinement


I just watched LL's CHP video. I didn't see him detonate CHP in the open. Heated in Aluminum foil, it did detonate, but then again so will ETN.

My composition is detonating with Visco fuse only in a paper tube.


[Edited on 1-7-2019 by wessonsmith]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTYNiabQl8w


FYI that still qualifies as confinement. LL is a great contributor to SM.

1 g of NHN in a plastic straw. No need for the NHN/ETN test, that stuff is WAYYY more powerful.

https://youtu.be/ZKkYYBPkC2M
Quote:

CHP requires solid (usually metal) cavity for reliable Deflagration - Detonation Transfer (DDT or D2D marked). With inner diameter 4 - 8 mm. Usually 1/4 inch (6,35 mm). Details were described here on S-M....:cool:...LL


NHN/ETN heat treated does not. I am in no way trying to dimish CHP. It's an amazing energetic that is easy to make. Contributors like LL make this community what it is:)



[Edited on 2-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

MineMan - 1-7-2019 at 23:17

Wesson. Your procedures have met a lot of criticism. Thank you for politely responding. Although you had me convinced from your first post. The quality of your post are excellent. The only issue I see you have to mix the NHN with the ETN and any stray heat or static can set that off to DDT. So the perfect cap is still out there. This isn’t it. But it’s damn close.

I like the idea of using a car board tube with no shrapnel.

Yes. We can t forget LL. Truly a wizard. Wonder what he is working on now?

I am still waiting if anyone has any binary dets? I have one but the simpler recipe will only set off AN comps probably and requires a copper tube. But you field mix it.

wessonsmith - 2-7-2019 at 04:28

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Wesson. Your procedures have met a lot of criticism. Thank you for politely responding. Although you had me convinced from your first post. The quality of your post are excellent. The only issue I see you have to mix the NHN with the ETN and any stray heat or static can set that off to DDT. So the perfect cap is still out there. This isn’t it. But it’s damn close.

I like the idea of using a car board tube with no shrapnel.

Yes. We can t forget LL. Truly a wizard. Wonder what he is working on now?

I am still waiting if anyone has any binary dets? I have one but the simpler recipe will only set off AN comps probably and requires a copper tube. But you field mix it.


Thank you for your support. Actually, the firecracker mix was never meant to be my detonator, however, they are powerful enough to be one:). I loved the idea of using relatively safe energetics, from friction and static electricity perspective, in fireworks for an exciting BANG! Both powders placed in a plastic container can be safely mixed together. The friction and shock energies required for those to detonate are far greater than what you can provide even vigorously shaking the container. That is why I highlighted the fact that this composition is safer than Flash powder.

To be clear. My robust detonators are layered. Melt-cast ETN, Powdered ETN, and NHN. They are made from steel tubing or Centrifuge Tubes and I have absolutely no fear of accidental detonation precisely because I am using NHN. This is why I am pushing it so. When you use primaries that are 80x less sensitive to friction than LA, you have virtually eliminated any chance of an accident, as long as you respect what you are working with and take your time. My detonator design also requires the use of microcrystalline cellulose. My press tool presses down on the microcrystalline cellulose which then presses down on the NHN. Friction danger using this method is completely eliminated.

wessonsmith - 3-7-2019 at 12:47

Quick update on my binary mixture. On one side of an aluminum can I taped a heat-treated firecracker and on the opposite side of the can I taped a non-heat treated firecracker.

I lit the heat treated firecracker and when it detonated it was also able to completely detonate the second non-heat-treated one. So much force was generated that it blew that 12kg plate completely off the lid. HUGE detonation! This binary mixture is for real:)

[Edited on 3-7-2019 by wessonsmith]

Steel Container (1mm)

wessonsmith - 3-7-2019 at 18:16

Here are some photos of that little firecracker and what it can do to this stainless steel container. I'd say that has some power!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C5HHC-E3yP7esQ0FmKhP...

[Edited on 4-7-2019 by wessonsmith]