Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Co2 in beverages?

Co2 in beverages?

lucky123 - 30-12-2010 at 22:42

What is the maximum amount of co2 that can be pumped into water and what is the co2 level of sparkling wines? Also I found online that club soda was given a rating of 5 volumes of co2 does this mean that 1 liter has 5 liters of co2 pumped into it? I doing this for a science project and if I have a 2 liter pop bottle and wanted to carbonate to 5 what psi would this read on a gauge if force carbonating a liquid?

Chainhit222 - 30-12-2010 at 23:19

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1...

specifically

co2 in beverages?

lucky123 - 2-1-2011 at 18:51

So I was wondering how many grams of co2 are in pop champagne beer ect... I realize champagne is about 750 ml bottles and lets assume pop is in 2 liter bottles. When properly chilled (fridge temp) and carbonated what would the psi be in the bottle? Is there a way to figure psi in bottle if for example you have a 2 liter pop bottle with 2 liters water and add 8grams of co2 what would be the pressure afterwards be if the room temp is 25 degrees celcius when you take reading?

Saerynide - 3-1-2011 at 09:36

According to my enology professor, champagne is at ~6 atm. Cremant is at 2 atm. I don't know what temp that is taken at though.

You can use Henry's law to estimate the solubility of a gas in a liquid given a pressure above the liquid

[Edited on 1/3/2011 by Saerynide]

ScienceSquirrel - 3-1-2011 at 10:27

Beer normally contains around 1 -2.5 times its volume of carbon dioxide depending on type and how it is stored eg cans, bottles, kegs or barrels.
44g of carbon dioxide equals around 22 litres at standard temperature and pressure. That is equivalent to about 2.0g per litre.
That would work out at about 2.0 - 5.0g of carbon dioxide per litre of beer.

Edited for slight error in calculations, it is OK now.

[Edited on 4-1-2011 by ScienceSquirrel]

lucky123 - 4-1-2011 at 09:15

Allright so here is what I wondering... If I have a 2 litter pop bottle fill it to the 2 liter mark I get an air space of 100 ml... I then fill another2 liter pop bottle to the one 1 liter mark after adding yeast and sugar. Somewhere it says it takes 4g of sugar per liter approximately to increase pressure 1 atm and I need 6 atm (I might think about making it only five atm to reduce a little pressure) I get the ammount of sugar equal to 24*2(liters)= 48 grams. I squeeze out the 100ml space of the bottle of liquid to be carbontated and the other 2 litter bottle has one liter of liquid and an 1100ml air pocket. Bottles are connected with a small tube and allowed to pressurize. What will the final psi in the bottle being carbonated be theoretically and how much co2 will be dissolved into the liquid at STP? Also if I keep the reaction bottle above the other due to co2 higher density will this facilitate all co2 will be forced into bottle to be carbonated? As a side note I recently saw a plan for a carbonator using baking soda and vinegar online using similair set up. I see for 1 liter liquid to carbonate (1 liter in one liter bottle not two liter bottle) it says in the reaction bottle to add 6.1 cups vinegar and 1.4 tbsp baking soda (probably need a 2 liter here to hold all that)

! correct me if I wrong here but would this not be a bomb if you attempted? This was for a high carbonation liquid 5 volumes co2 or greater... Something not right here stochimetrically here to perhaps? Anyways that is my question and I need help figuring out and any help would be appreciated. I

ScienceSquirrel - 4-1-2011 at 09:39

Carbon dioxide is very far from being a typical or ideal gas when dissolving in water.
Look at the solubility of various gases here;
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1...
Carbon dioxide reacts with water and will saturate the liquid at a given temperature or pressure.
As long as the liquid is not disturbed large volumes of gas can remain in the liquid for some time even at a lower pressure or higher temperature.
For example take a fresh bottle of cool lemonade and pour a glass, the glass can be allowed to stand for some time in the open air before becoming flat.
Try adding a spoonful of sugar to a glass of lemonade, it will immediately foam over as the gas is forced out of solution.
When making beer the fresh 'green' beer in the fermenter will contain a lot of carbon dioxide for a long time after fermentation has stopped and if it is siphoned into a barrel the disturbed gas acts as a 'blanket' protecting the beer from the air.
As you can see from the graph, 1 litre of water at around 15C and atmospheric pressure will contain roughly 2.0g or its own volume of carbon dioxide.

[Edited on 4-1-2011 by ScienceSquirrel]

Saerynide - 5-1-2011 at 09:36

Hmmm if you wanna carbonate a liquid, your best bet is probably dry ice. Cheap and fast.

Also, you should bubble the CO2 through the liquid, with as much interfacial contact between gas and liquid as possible, instead of having the CO2 as gas just sitting ontop of the liquid surface as a blanket of gas. To increase surface area, you should use something like an aquarium pump stone or a tube with many small puncture holes.

Also, if you are going to drink or need this carbonated liquid, I suggest adding a trap between your CO2 generator and the the liq you want to carbonate, just in case

I've made sparkling wine before and thank goodness for the trap (else there'd be baking soda in my wine

).

[Edited on 1/6/2011 by Saerynide]

smuv - 5-1-2011 at 09:57

Yes you can carbonate with yeast, in some cases all the way up to the burst pressure for a plastic bottle. Likewise the pressure of each bottle will be dependent upon the headspace above the liquid. Calculating exactly what the pressure in the head-space is, is difficult because you are going to have a lot of things in solution and also, while yeast converts sugar to alcohol pretty efficiently, under high pressure conditions you will be stressing the yeast, so side reactions are more possible. The part about having one bottle above the other...will do little to change the pressure gradient because the density of gases are so small.

So everything will work as you expect, but it is hard to say exactly what the pressures will be. PS the burst pressure for a soda bottle is on the order of 100 psi, some can take more, some can take less.

ScienceSquirrel - 5-1-2011 at 10:56

I have burst a few beer bottles by filling them with beer that was not quite ready and adding a bit too much priming.
If you fill bottles properly, eg right up to about an inch or two in the neck, most of the gas is in solution and the energy release is slow. The bottle splits and a pool of beer forms on the floor. I have never seen one explode like in the movies!
Pressurising bottles that are full of gas is dangerous as a lot of energy is stored in the gas and it will be released very quickly is the bottle fails.

lucky123 - 7-1-2011 at 18:13

I read somewhere that it takes 17 grams sucrose to make 1% alcohol in a liter of liquid and that 4 grams sugar will increase one liter 1 atm... Is this accurate or just a guess? Also how you put the trap in the baking soda vinegar setup to carbonate the wines?

crazyboy - 7-1-2011 at 23:26

Quote: Originally posted by lucky123

Also how you put the trap in the baking soda vinegar setup to carbonate the wines?

What?!? First off few wines are carbonated, and most sparkling wines are carbonated by natural fermentation, before all the sugar ferments out the wine is transferred to bottles and corked.

Saerynide - 8-1-2011 at 05:29

Quote:

What?!? First off few wines are carbonated, and most sparkling wines are carbonated by natural fermentation, before all the sugar ferments out the wine is transferred to bottles and corked.

Yes yes, I know true sparkling wine is supposed to ferment and self carbonate in the bottle and what I did is considered blasphemy to a true wine connoisseur

But have you ever had Andre, the cheap $5 sparkling wine that undergrads chug from the bottle like its gatorade? That stuff is made in giant vats then bottled, with each bottle charged with CO2 and capped (learnt this from my enology prof

)

Hence, we decided to carbonate our own wine for the hell of it. I didnt have dry ice, so I used baking soda and vinegar, hooked it up to a trap and then bubbled it through our wine (wine was made ice cold first). I wasnt comfortable with a pressurized container so we just did it open to atm. However, it was cold enough that the wine actually became noticibly fizzy, but definately not to the extent if it had been pressurized.

To answer lucky123''s question, to make the trap, I just put an empty bottle between the bubbler going into the wine and the CO2 generator. Look up a vacuum trap made from an erlenmyer flask, and some glass and rubber tubing. You'll want to use the trap, incase some of the baking soda/vinegar mixture foams over, the trap will be there to catch it.

Like this:

http://www.chem.harvard.edu/safety/safety_diagram_4.png

Left most will be your CO2 generator, then the empty trap, then bubble into your liq/wine. If you are pressurizing your system, you should also include a release valve/stopcock so you can quickly let out some of the pressure if you have to.

[Edited on 1/8/2011 by Saerynide]

ScienceSquirrel - 9-1-2011 at 08:49

This is pretty much the whole enchilada on the subject of carbon dioxide in aqueous solution.

Attachment: Carbondioxide in water equilibrium.doc (169kB)
This file has been downloaded 894 times

lucky123 - 14-1-2011 at 19:34

I was wondering say you know that at a certain psi and temp you have 2 vol co2 in the beverage... For example lets say at 30 psi you have what you looking for but you accidently went to 60 psi instead. Can you release some pressure back to 30 psi and everything be carbonated o.k. or will to much be left in solution at this point?

peach - 17-1-2011 at 16:10

The pressure in a can of coke is approximately 55psi - which is a decent amount!

I googled "pressure in a coke bottle psi"

The bottles themselves can withstand up to 200psi in some cases I think.

You can also measure the pressures by drilling a hole in the lid and sticking a car tyre valve in there, to then connect a bike pump gauge.

I would not recommend you go much over the 50 or so the bottling companies are happy with. You don't want bits of coke bottle in your eyes.

Have you thought about using a Soda Stream for this fizzing up you need to do?

Or a carbonated drinks fountain? <---- this is one of those things that takes disposable cartridges, clowns squirt people with them as they're busy scaring kids

[Edited on 18-1-2011 by peach]

ScienceSquirrel - 17-1-2011 at 17:11

Read the whole of the reference that you give plus my earlier reference.
The pressure in a tin of Coke can be only a little above atmospheric or several atmospheres.
The gas does not behave ideally, dropping a can will result in a lot of gas coming out of solution and a massive increase in can pressure.
Carbon dioxide reacts with water, pump in lots of gas and the pressure wil only rise after saturation is achieved. But dropping the can will result in massive out gassing and a large increase in pressure.
The strange behaviour of carbon dioxide in solution is illustrated by the tragedy of Lake Nyos;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos

smuv - 17-1-2011 at 17:35

I'm glad you posted that ScienceSquirrel, I never even fathomed a natural disaster like that could occur. Tragic but very interesting.

peach - 18-1-2011 at 03:28

I've said this before on here, but my friend manage to ruin the seal on a coke can - he was very gently tapping it on the side of desk while he was listening to the teacher.

When the whole lid comes off in one go, the result is very funny.

watson.fawkes - 18-1-2011 at 07:06

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel

Carbon dioxide reacts with water, pump in lots of gas and the pressure wil only rise after saturation is achieved. But dropping the can will result in massive out gassing and a large increase in pressure.
The strange behaviour of carbon dioxide in solution is illustrated by the tragedy of Lake Nyos;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos

Digressing slightly, this is a hazard of "clean coal" schemes, all of which involve pumping CO2 underground. The risk is a containment failure, which need not happen near the pump head, as underground rocks have a tendency to do things while you're not looking. Get a failure, and you've asphyxiated all animal life in the vicinity.

Even laying in personal protective equipment for such an eventuality is hard. You first need an oxygen concentration meter, to notify you when it goes below 20%. Then you need a way to survive, which means SCBA equipment. Since that won't last long enough, you also need a way to escape. Don't rely upon an internal combustion engine; no oxygen.

peach - 18-1-2011 at 08:57

They were on about something similar on the BBC news last night (something I tend not to watch too frequently, as I can only handle small amounts of intellectual drama and scare mongering).

Drilling 9,000 ft down in England (on land) to hit natural gas deposits in the shingle, which is apparently something that's been done quite a few times in the US.

They were complaining that the gas can then make it's way back up into the water table, and showed an amusing video of a guy in the US igniting the water coming out of his kitchen tap - and ignite it most certainly did.