Sciencemadness Discussion Board

priming mixture for loading percussion caps

otonel - 15-1-2011 at 15:32

I have a muzzleloader gun and i make my blackpowder and caps.
I use for load caps a mixture from matches head, red phosphorus from matchbox strip and some flash power from firecrackers.
I know that in very sensitive and dangerous but i don`t have another option because I can`t buy percussion caps and i try another mixture but don`t work.
I need your advice to make a priming mixture from materials available like: H2SO4, PbO2, HNO3, KNO3,S, KClO3.
I have that materials and i search from easy make primary explozive easy to initiate by percussion and safe to handling
Thank you for your attention!

Rain - 15-1-2011 at 20:39

Mix the red phosphorus with KCLO3 first in a large quantity to get a decent blend.
Wait for this mixture to dry and then break the clumps up with your fingernails.
Now mix in some sulphur powder and store this mixture in your moms closet.
If you are in a hurry, just add some H2SO4 and HNO3 together and breathe the fumes to make sure the product is ripe.
Now add some of your previous mix to synthesize the powerful, yet completely reliable X-plosive used today in many households all over the globe.

inspector5 - 15-1-2011 at 21:02

I maybe wrong but most sources of pyrotechnic info suggest that you should not mix red phosphorus with ANY oxidizer and I would definitely not mix it with an already fairly unstable oxidizer like a chlorate and NEVER, EVER in a "large" quantity. Here's one reference that discourages it: Deathmix

crazedguy - 15-1-2011 at 22:26

You would be able to tell he was joking if you read further, unless "mixing H2SO4 and HNO3 together and breathe the fumes to make sure the product is ripe", is something you do.

Contrabasso - 16-1-2011 at 03:33

Most of the significant texts on explosives will give you formulations for cap primer compounds, however you must follow the instructions and formula very accurately as an accident may be fatal with primers. You cannot take impure ingredients and expect it to work, you have to find a formula or two then chose one and use the pure ingredients in the hope that the process works perfectly first time.

It's probably easier to get the permits required to buy primer caps in your country.

inspector5 - 16-1-2011 at 10:23

"Joking" or not, I believe is irresponsible to suggest to someone that they mix up some sulfur-sensitized chlorate-based Armstrong Mix, a "small" quantity of which could easily cost someone some fingers and a "large" quantity could easily cost someone their life. As to whether or not Rain mixes such things and stores them in his momma's closet, that's his (and her) business but to suggest so on a forum where sarcasm is not always easily perceptible is reckless.

Rain - 16-1-2011 at 10:57

Quote: Originally posted by inspector5  
"Joking" or not, I believe is irresponsible to suggest to someone that they mix up some sulfur-sensitized chlorate-based Armstrong Mix, a "small" quantity of which could easily cost someone some fingers and a "large" quantity could easily cost someone their life. As to whether or not Rain mixes such things and stores them in his momma's closet, that's his (and her) business but to suggest so on a forum where sarcasm is not always easily perceptible is reckless.

You win Inspector5.
It was very irresponsible of me to joke about that.
My sincerest apologies Otonel.
I was drunk.:D

inspector5 - 16-1-2011 at 12:11

I wasn't trying to win Rain. I just don't want someone to be hurt while trying to do something as benign as preparing percussion caps so they can enjoy a respectable hobby like BP shooting. If someone's trying to mix up 60 grams of flash to blow up their old mobile home and gets hurt, well that's just natural selection at work but just trying to enjoy a relatively safe hobby and being self-sufficient in that hobby is, in my opinion, a worthy goal.

That said, I have a book called "Homemade Guns and Ammo" by Ronald B. Brown that contains info on reworking of primers. What it suggests(NaHCO3-stabilized sulfur/KClO3) is not something I would attempt in any situation short of the Zombie Apocalypse. The U.S. Army has a field manual, the "Improvised Munitions Handbook"(free on that suggests "strike anywhere" matches for for refilling which require no mixing and since it uses a small quantity of a reasonably safe consumer product I would feel more confident suggesting that but keep in mind the U.S. Army wasn't terribly concerned with safety when that book was written.

gregxy - 16-1-2011 at 16:39

Or try electric ignition like this guy did and eliminate the cap:

Children's toy caps can also work.

All primer compositions will be dangerous, work with quantities < 1gram

otonel - 17-1-2011 at 02:24

Rain your apology is accepted:D
I know what I use is a dangerous mixture but i work with little quantities as wet mixture and that is the reason to answer you about priming mixture.
I want to make lead styphnate based priming mixture but I can`t find resorcinol and I think to make silver fulminate but that in unsafety explosive like chlorate red phosphorus.
For children toy caps I search but i don`t find and that is based to amstrong mix.
I know about how dangerous is that chemicals and is my finger and eye in game and is my responsibility for any injuries

hissingnoise - 17-1-2011 at 04:05

- Otonel, you mentioned lead dioxide earlier . . .
Toxic lead compounds are certainly *not* what's needed in primers for firearms!

The WiZard is In - 17-1-2011 at 09:15

Quote: Originally posted by otonel  
I have a muzzleloader gun and i make my blackpowder and caps.

I eyeballed my copy of la The Ordnance Manual for the use of Officers of the United States Army 3rd. edition, 1861.

Has a most complete description, however, the caps use mercury fulminate.

The current choice for small arms primers dobe — The PA 100
primer (PATR-2700 P380) is sold in Europe as "Sinoxide".

A very common priming mixture in Europe is the "Sinoxide" mixture.

Seven-Eric Johnson, Nexplo/Befors
Norma Reloading Manual
Norma Percision AB Amorfors, Sweden. 2004

38% Lead tricinate [trinitroresorcinate]
2% Tetrazene
39% Lead dioxide
11% Calcium silicid[e]
5% Sulphur antimon [antimony trisulphide]

See also :—

Stig Peterson
AB Borors, Borors
Explosion Products and Temperature of the "Sinoxid" Percussion Primer
Pyroteknikdagen [Pyrotechnic Day]

(Lead in primers is only a concern at indoor firing ranges.)

Now before I continue ... as other have noted primer composition
are serious explosives. Never-ever mix the ingredients dry.
Wet whatever and then add the chlorate (or other oxidizer) last.
Load your caps and let them dry in the sun. You can if you find
in necessary, after they dry put a drop of a strong solution of
shellac on them as a binder/glue.

You can find a lot of info on primers in Hatcher's Notebook.
[I like this book!]

Google has it.

Us the Search in this book feature to look for primers.

For the tech minded.

A Brief History of Center-Fire Small Arms Primers
American Rifleman March, 1999

It is said that necessity is the mother of invention. This is certainly true in the case of
primer development for center-fire small arms cartridges. The evolution of percussion,
or impact-firing, primers goes back to the 18th century. In this connection, it is
interesting to note how old some of the chemicals used in primer formulations really

Information on primer developments before the patent system is vague and con-
tradictory. The first percussion primer, a copper cap containing mercury fulminate, was
patented by Joshua Shaw of Philadelphia in 1814.

There are two common types of modem primers in use today for center-fire car-
tridges: Boxer and Berdan. Interestingly, the Boxer primer now used in North America
was developed by English

Colonel Edward M. Boxer of the British Royal Laboratories in the 1860s. Conversely,
the Berdan primer now used predominantly in Europe was developed in the United
States by Colonel Hiram Berdan of the U.S. Ordnance Department in 1870.

The Boxer primer has a separate anvil held in the primer cup and a single flash hole
in the center of the primer pocket of the case. Boxer primed cases are readily deprimed
and reloaded. The Berdan primer anvil is an integral part of the primer pocket of the
case. It has one or more flasholes drilled at the base of the anvil in the bottom of the
primer pocket. Drawings of the Boxer and Berdan primer types are shown in Figures I
and 2 on the following pages.

Priming formulations are mixtures of initiators, fuels, oxidizers and sometimes,
sensitizers, frictionators and heat increasers. The initiator is the chemical most often
used to describe a primer. The other materials are used to adjust sensitivity, flame
output and duration.

Mercury fulminate was the predominant percussion priming chemical for many years.
It was first described by the Swedish-German Alchemist Baron Johan Kunkel von
Lowenstern (1630-1703). It was suitable for priming, but it was more than 100 years
until LePage of France actually tried it in a priming mix. It was then forgotten until
Edward Howard rediscovered it around 1799. The Rev. Alexander Forsyth, a Scottish
Presbyterian minister, patented mercury fulminate as a percussion initiator in 1807.

Mercury fulminate was later used with the addition of potassium chlorate, antimony
sulfide, various fuels, oxidizers, powdered glass and glue to improve storage stability,
sensitivity and ignition power. Stronger primers were required as smokeless powder
began to replace black powder in the late 1880s. By 1910, nearly all straight mercury
fulminate primers had been replaced by fulminate chlorate mixes. These mixes were
good initiators and were used to load some commercial ammunition into the 1940s.
Some military match ammunition was loaded at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant
with these formulations as late as the mid 1960s. Nonetheless, mercury fulminate had
several disadvantages. It was costly to make, rapidly decomposed into a non-explosive
solid which caused misfires unless stored in a very cool place, and formed an amalgam,
oralloy, with brass that would weaken and cause cartridge case failures.

Mercury fulminate compositions had been replaced since 1930 by lead styphnate,
lead azide, and DDNP (Diazodinitrophenot) mixtures. This occurred first in Germany,
then throughout Europe, and finally in the United States.

Chlorate primers are credited to Rev. James Forsyth who mixed together 70.6 parts
of potassium chlorate, 1.8 parts charcoal, and 17.6 parts of sulfur. Chlorate primers
were adopted by the U.S. Army in 1917 to overcome long term storage instability
disadvantages of mercury fulminate. The formulation of the FA 70 mixture developed by
Winchester for the Army contained potassium chlorate, antimony sulfide, lead
thiocyanate, and TNT (Trinitrotoluene). These were used by the military for cals. .30
and.45 through the end of World War II.

The chlorate formulations were quite stable in storage and performed reliably. They
were strong initiators, far exceeding mercury fulminate. But they too had one serious
drawback. One of the combustion products of potassium chlorate was potassium
chloride, which is similar to table salt. The salt was not only corrosive, but it was
hygroscopic and would draw moisture out of the air. This would cause severe rusting
and pitting of the bores and chambers unless the firearm was promptly scrubbed to
remove all traces of salt. This cleaning had to be done immediately and again over the
following two to three days. This was not a practical exercise for troops to in combat.

Lead styphnate primers were the next generation to be developed. The driving force
behind this development was the search for a noncorrosive, nonmercuric priming mix. It
has been the mainstay for commercial ammunition for about 70 years, and continues to
be used to this day. It is stable in storage and works well with a wide variety of
smokeless propellants.

Lead styphnate was first described in the 1881 edition of the Bielstein Atlas, and in
1882 it was described by Walesky, Benedikt and Hubl. Rathsberg is credited with the
development of normal lead styphnate in 1926. Edward Von Herz of Germany was the
first to patent a primer mix with this material. Remington licensed the patent from Von
Herz in 1932 and was the first in the United States to use this noncorrosive priming in
commercial ammunition.

Von Herz also described another form known as basic lead styphnate in 1914. Later
Federal Cartridge Co. developed a priming mix using this form of styphnate. A mix
using this initiator was patented by William King on August 30, 1949, although Federal
first used the basic lead styphnate in .22 ammunition as early as 1936. A molecule of
normal lead styphnate contains one lead atom while that of the basic form has two.
Both forms have broadly similar ignition characteristics. Federal continues to use the
basic lead styphnate and most other manufacturers use the normal form.

The U.S. Army adopted lead styphnate in 1948 to overcome the corrosion problems
of chlorate primers. The Army had tested and proven these mixes several years prior,
but delayed the changes because of conversion costs and concerns about production
interruptions during World War 11. The one exception was the cal. .30 Carbine. Lead
styphnate was adopted for the Carbine in 1941 because the Carbine would not function
with the chlorate primers due to stoppages from rusting of the gas port and operating

Initiators start the lead styphnate primer mix going upon firing pin impact. Fuels burn
up to generate heat, gases, and incandescent (glowing) particles. Oxidizers provide the
oxygen to burn the fuel and other combustibles. Frictionators increase sensitivity of the
mix by providing sharp particles for concentrating firing pin energy-most common to
rimfire mixes. Binders hold the mix together in the primer. Other materials such as TNT,
PETN, DDNP (Diazodinitophenol), powdered aluminum, powdered magnesium and
nitrocellulose or guncotton are often employed to increase flame temperature, hot
particles or flame duration.

Lead-free primer formulations are the latest inventions attributed to necessity. About
20 years ago, it was recognized that airborne lead presented a danger to shooters and
range personnel in indoor ranges. Many indoor ranges closed down or had to undergo
major, expensive changes to their ventilation systems to meet government
requirements. Lead poisoning can affect the nervous system, blood and kidneys.
Airborne lead comes from two sources in ammunition during firing; vaporized lead from
the primer mix and vaporization of exposed lead at the base of the bullet. Most
lead-free ammunition now has lead-free primers and bullets with bases of nonlead

Buying lead-free primer ammunition is somewhat like buying health food. One can
often find out what is not in it, but it is not always possible to find out what t is. The
primary constituent of many lead free primers is DDNP (Diazodinitrophenol); also
known as dinol, diazol, or 4, 6-dinitrobenzene-2-diazo-1 -oxide to the chemist. The
German chemist Peter Griess is credited with the development of DDNP in 1874. It is
as sensitive to impact and more easily ignited than mercury fulminate and is less
sensitive to friction. It has been used in blasting caps and military fuse detonators for
many years. It is considered to be of suitable stability for commercial and military use. It
found limited use as early as 1940 in military primers during World War II. That
particular formulation was later abandoned for lack of storage stability and excessive
muzzle flash.

All major U.S. ammunition producers now offer ammunition with unleaded primers.
Blount offers a patented formulation [USP 4 963 201 see also USP 5 216 199 /djh/]
through its Speer brand. Winchester SuperClean NT and Federal BallistiClean offer
patented priming formulations as their lead-free brands. Longbow, Delta Defense and
Remington all list lead-free ammunition in their catalogs. Several other companies such
as Magtech, Fiocchi and I.T.D. Enterprises list off-shore, lead-free offerings. The three
U.S.-patented formulations all use DDNP as the initiating agent, although they differ in
terms of fuels, oxidizers and sensitizers.

As an old research- and-development man, it is interesting to note that
sales/marketing people are still sometimes ahead of the development and production
people-not all listings are actually available. All of the listings I have seen are in pistol
calibers, except that Federal offers a cal. .22 Long Rifle round. Blount/CCI was the only
respondent to indicate that its primer is available for reloading. CCI has clearly marked
each primer with the letters NT to distinguish it from a standard primer. Federal has
used a copper-colored primer cup to identify its lead-free primer.

I was interested in the flame outputs of the lead-free primers compared with con-
ventional lead styphnate primers. Consequently, photos were taken of large pistol
primers in .45 ACP cases. The tests were made using the original manufacturer's
cartridge case since some appear to have increased the size of the flash hole because
DDNP formulations would be expected to generate more gas than lead styphnate. The
photos show the flash as the propellant in the case would see it.

All of the lead-free primers shown in the accompanying photographs exhibit strong
flames. The Winchester primer shows evidence of the generation of hot particles, which
can be an aid to propellant ignition. It should be kept in mind that photographic
representations of primer output are only indicators. They do not measure flame
duration and temperature, which are also important in cartridge ignition. The true test of
ignition is in the testing of a cartridge in the manufacturer's ballistics laboratory with
specific propellants under varying temperature conditions.

Several years ago, I lamented that there were few offerings of lead-free primers and
ammunition for the shooter. Many manufacturers are now responding to shooters'
requirements for lead-free or reduced-lead ammunition. Once again, necessity has
proven that it is, indeed, the mother of invention. ORD

otonel - 17-1-2011 at 12:23

Thank you The WiZard is In , very useful your post.
My muzzleloader rifle barrel is made from stainless steel so corrosion from chlorate salt is not a big problem but I understand the mixture of chlorate and sulfur may ignite spontaneously and for long storage is better to add some sodium bicarbonate or chalk
Next week I will try to make DDNP from picric acid to use in priming mixture

The WiZard is In - 17-1-2011 at 13:28

Quote: Originally posted by otonel  
Thank you The WiZard is In , very useful your post.
My muzzleloader rifle barrel is made from stainless steel so corrosion from chlorate salt is not a big problem but I understand the mixture of chlorate and sulfur may ignite spontaneously and for long storage is better to add some sodium bicarbonate or chalk
Next week I will try to make DDNP from picric acid to use in priming mixture

Remember... you don't need/want an explosion.... you be wanting
a rapid hot projecting flame. However... getting the ratio correct .....!

Rosco Bodine - 17-1-2011 at 13:46

Here are three basic lead picrate based compositions you may find useful as

grndpndr - 17-1-2011 at 21:40

Very good post.A few points that raised an eyebrow.One increased muzzle flash from the primer comp.Certainly possible but Ive only read of additives to the propellant to
reduce muzzle flash never a primer formulation.Of course Muzzle flash Isnt of great concern w/a muzzleloader.Primarily of concern to military /LEO .
Also alterations to the cartridge case to accomodate a different primer comp.If that primer comp./primer becomes available to reloaders most likely thell use the brass they have at hand
which might reduce the hot gas available for ignition?Also If the altered brass is used with a std primer/primer formulation what if any effect would there be on the load?

Most firearms manufacturers will not warranty a gun used with reloads.Likely also protecting them from problems using a nonstandard primer/ case or the reverse producing an unsafe load.For instance the larger hole in the case for (DDNP primer formulations)primer gases might also allow more breech pressure from firing to act on the primer/primer pocket so if the nonstandard primer also includes a harder/thicker primer construction using a std 'soft 'primer might lead to severe primer flattening-failure.I know this is all long shot possible outcomes but disasters have come from odd circumstances in reloading.(light load detonation)

Also as many know 'hard' primers are used in AFAIK all military ammunition as a safety measure (slamfires etc) and some firearms will not function reliably with these 'hard' primers.

PS I think its an admirable ambition to be self sufficient in regards to shooting your ML.Personally I would go with a chlorate primer,they have a long history of successful use.I dont believe there are legal ramifications?
As far as being corrosive I assume your using a std BP formula which is corrosive in any event.

Why a fact made primer containing a listed expl is legal and a homemade equivalent is not is beyond my paygrade.:(

Its occured to me the most difficult operation even more so than a workable primer comp would be the copper cap that accepts the composition? How do you propose to approximate the dimensions of a commercial copper caP? The old caps are destroyed upon firing as far as Im aware unlike centerfire primers which could conceivably be reworked

[Edited on 18-1-2011 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 18-1-2011 by grndpndr]

otonel - 18-1-2011 at 11:15

Grndpndr you have right about chlorate priming mixture is easy to make from available materials, i fiind a lot of people who makes their primers from toy caps[url=]toy cap primer[/url]
I make caps from brass or aluminium like this example primer making but I work with wet mixture and dimensions of a cap is given by nipple external dimension
I find a lot of information about what I search in a book POOR MAN'S PRIMER MANUAL link
My question is if I can make antimony sulfide at home from antimony and sulfur?

grndpndr - 18-1-2011 at 16:58

I had no Idea those sorts of tools were available.Must be a fairly decent market.A couple of questions why the need for primer comp if all thats needed are toy caps for reliable ignition and second if these USA sourced tools are available to you Personally I would stash a few thousand to 5 thousand commercial #11 caps in a ammo can with adequate silica gel and call it done.:D

Call me lazy or misinterpreting your AO.

The difference between magnum and std primers is substantial but still works with a std primer pocket/ flashhole.I wonder why DDNP would require a larger flashhole?Photos clearly show the tremedous difference in
volume of gas/flame between the 2.That DDNP would require a larger flashole due to a greater amount of gas seems Odd/excessive.It would seem if that much more gas were produced different reloading manuals or the use of data meant for use with magnum primers appropriate?Magnum primers not always being an appropriate choice with all powders/calibers.FWIW,not trying to sharpshoot your post Wizard its fascinating.Just trying to absorb the implications.

nitro-genes - 19-1-2011 at 13:27

Quote: Originally posted by inspector5  
If someone's trying to mix up 60 grams of flash to blow up their old mobile home and gets hurt, well that's just natural selection at work

How much flash is in a single 3 inch aerial salute you think? And no way is 60 grams of flash going to blow up a complete motor home. Only if you watch to many Hollywood movies. :D

The nature of a priming mixture is to go off from a relatively mild percussion, there probably no "completely safe" composition that you can use as an amateur. On the other hand, the amounts involved are really minimal, just put the caps on the gun last like you would for a backpowder revolver.

I would try potassium chlorate+sulfur, although it might prove to insensitive to be reliable. If you work with very small amounts and store them away from flammable material I'm sure you could safely use them as percussion caps. (Not as a main composition!!!) If your sulfur contains acids, you could probably even recrystallize your sulfur from hot toluene and extract the acids using water+bicarbonate to get acid free sulfur for longer storage. Simply adding some grid to the cap may increase friction and improve reliability.

Lead picrate/styphnates should also be possible, given the fact that you have H2SO4 and KNO3. There probably are some older patents that should list percussion compositions based on these compounds. :)

[Edited on 19-1-2011 by nitro-genes]

inspector5 - 19-1-2011 at 17:20

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  

How much flash is in a single 3 inch aerial salute you think? And no way is 60 grams of flash going to blow up a complete motor home. Only if you watch to many Hollywood movies. :D

Hate to break it to you, but I don't care how much flash is in a 3 inch salute. What I do know is that many (read most) experienced amateur pyros I have talked with wouldn't think of mixing up 60 grams of flash. And you are correct, it did not destroy the complete mobile home.

As for the KClO3/Sulfur, I mixed, in a very unscientific manner, small amounts of each, probably enough for 1 primer on a piece of 1" steel plate and first tried dropping a penny on it with no luck so I stepped up to a good tap with the topside of a 12" crescent wrench and while the noise was inconclusive the smell of burnt sulfur and the black smudge left behind tells me it responded to the tap. I will try to get around to rigging up a ball drop apparatus and see what kind of force results in consistent detonation.

Here's a link to an old patent with 40 methods to produce complex salts of lead picrate, with what appears to be data evaluating their use as primer comps, one of which will hopefully be helpful:Complex Salts of Lead Picrate

otonel - 22-1-2011 at 01:09

KClO3 with sulfur and glass powder work but not very well.
Tools for making caps i make myself I don`t need to by one and if something interested about their construction here is dimension
I find some recipes for priming mixing without corrosive KClO3 that I want to make and try when I have barium nitrate
For example, in chapter 1 "Primers for Igniting High Pressure Rifle Powders in Small Arms Cartridges".

1- Federal Explosives license for purchase and use must be secured.
2- Barium Nitrate, two parts
3- Lead Nitrate, one part
4- Phosphorus, one part
5- Aluminum (powdered), one part

The chapter gives instruction for measuring using an empty .22 LR case, which equals "1 part". It give instruction as to mixing on a tinned lid (syrup lid, etc). There's about 2 pages for each of the different compounds and it seems to cover everything including testing...... a little bit hit with a hammer = explodes - is good.

Wet versus dry mixing are explained. Explosive versus heat detonation is explained. Test charts using .30-06 against Frankfort Arsenal GI ammo.

The next chapter uses a different formula:
1- Potassium Chlorate
2- Sulfur
3- Lead Nitrate
4- Antimony Sulfide
Says this one is "corrosive".

There are 5 different priming compound formulas listed. One is listed as "Senior Grade Mixture" not for beginners. Also has a chapter on making muzzle loader caps from scratch including the cup.

Priming compound measurements in the primer cup are gauged as 1/2, 5/8 or 3/4 full and explains using the different amounts for igniting powders for different applications.

Apparently there was a Volume 2 of this book with instruction on making the tools, punches, dies for making primer cups, home made reloading tools, etc etc.

One of the propellant formulas for semi-smokeless powder:
Listed as "laboratory batches":

Potassium Nitrate 3 grams
Lead Nitrate 3 grams
Barium Nitrate 2 grams
Liquid Glue .250 grams
Carbon (Willow charcoal) 1.250 grams

For "smokeless, flashless under load"":

Potassium Nitrate 2.1 grams
Ammonium Nitrate 7.14 grams
Willow Charcoal 2.10 grams
Lead Nitrate 1.720 grams

otonel - 15-2-2011 at 06:18

I return to my post with a new mixture: I mix lead minium with sulfur and Al powder, that mixture work well as priming and is easy to make.
I want to make lead picrate but I don`t have methyl alcohol, is a problem if I use etilic alcohol?

grndpndr - 16-2-2011 at 06:48

You could use HEET successfully in the yellow containers if its available in your AO.The RED containers of HEET gas treatment contain isopropyl alchohol.The YELLOW containers contain a pure enough grade of methyl alchohol. Cost is about $1.50 for 16oz.
@ any gas station in USA.

I would bet most foriegn countrys
even if made by a different company carry similar products. Id search the gas treatments designed to alleviate water buildup and gasline freeze.

[Edited on 16-2-2011 by grndpndr]

quicksilver - 16-2-2011 at 09:10

Heet's an idea but it's marginally expensive (those bottles are small) especially if you were going to need a few experiments. It MIGHT be possible to purchase methanol by the gallon container via boiler or janitorial service supply for substantially less. Price differentiate between a place like Ace or Lowes hardware and a janitorial supply for the "classic drain opener" is quite substantial (about 50%). ;-}


I would be extremely suspicious of any material from that "Firearms Forum". The method of description is "recipe-like" in using "one parts, two parts", etc
Not quoting the patent, the author or the testing of any given composition is suspicious in that something came from "The Frankfort Arsenal" is generally similar to saying that a cactus grown in the Southwest is Peyote. There are no specifics as to origin. They don't even quote the author, time line, surrounding research or patent(s).

A class 20 license is not necessary for non commercial production of pyrotechnic items that are designed for "own usage" within a prescribed scale depending upon the item. A cap for BP firearms is not in any manner an explosive device as defined by law. Thus that "recipe" begins with an item factually incorrect. License (Federal Explosive) is subdivided and very specific. Just like there is a difference in FFL general dist. and FFL C&R and "no need private" sales; there is a difference in Federal law regarding deflagrating materials and even detonating ones.

The use of the terminology has bearing only in so far as it's application or legal category. "Heat detonation" has little bearing on either and appears to be a colloquialism of questionable value.
Frankly I would leave the above "recipes" alone until I had a factual, professional source, that had more that "gun store wisdom" to backup what little recipes therein touted.

The research involved in initiating materials can be reproduced & materials synthesized in a very professional manner if approached in the same light.
The Forester device is not alone; I believe Lyman made one and perhaps several other companies have or do. It's not the punch/ press that's difficult to obtain (Hell, you could make one just as easily as buy it), it's the metal and it's width. We wouldn't want to go using brass, copper or the like now - would we?

[Edited on 16-2-2011 by quicksilver]

madscientist - 16-2-2011 at 10:56

Every other post in this thread mentions firearms. Weapons discussion is forbidden on Sciencemadness.