Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Making fire (youtube collaborative video)

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kuro96inlaila - 14-2-2011 at 05:48

Here is my contribution,hope it is suitable for the project.

The first video is about the reaction of potassium metal with tissue paper.Which potassium takes oxygen from tissue paper and generate heat thus burn the tissue.After a few second on the tissue,the potassium metal need to be rub with tissue to initiate the burning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyUNK_0KLGE

And the second video is similar to the first,but other ingredient were added,that is elemental iodine.The tissue is not just burned because potassium and oxygen reaction,but also from potassium and iodine reaction.However,this experiment proceed violently throwing tiny bits of potassium everywhere.Sorry for the waving motion of the camera,I was quite shocked result from the violent reaction:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSJzi4U4q30

I hope it is satisfying!:)

NurdRage - 14-2-2011 at 08:12

nice work!

Do you have a tripod or some other means to stabilize the camera?

I may have to speed up the video but when i do that even minor waving becomes massively jerky.

kuro96inlaila - 14-2-2011 at 08:19

I wish I have one.:(

Maybe I can improvise my retort stand as tripod somehow and re-record the reaction if needed.

[Edited on 14-2-2011 by kuro96inlaila]

NurdRage - 14-2-2011 at 11:22

For now i think we'll stay away from the iodine potassium one. It looks a little TOO violent for what we're attempting.

The potassium and tissue alone look pretty good for the collaboration.

Morgan - 14-2-2011 at 12:52

@Morgan awesome! when i'm ready to start editing everything together i'll get the raw file from you. [/rquote]

The raw video is somewhat brighter, how I intended. You can see the woven wick a bit more. I don't know why youtube darkens the video.

kuro96inlaila - 14-2-2011 at 18:36

Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  
For now i think we'll stay away from the iodine potassium one. It looks a little TOO violent for what we're attempting.

The potassium and tissue alone look pretty good for the collaboration.


Good idea!:)
I am into making better video on potassium and tissue paper,maybe in a few day it will be ready.

Morgan - 15-2-2011 at 13:13

I poured about a 1/3 teaspoon out of this bottle of platinum catalyst. It seems like I have a ton of it to play with, there's a full bottle that has been out in my shed for almost 8 years. And it's been through a flood too, thus the condition of the bottle, water got up around the label.
Anyway, here's another variation on a theme, finely divided platinum on alumina misted with methanol. I was going to sprinkle some particles in a flask filled with methanol, it's more dramatic but also kind of startling and I wasn't up for that today. If you stopper one end of an ideal length to width diameter tube with methanol vapor and light it in cool dry air, it makes a really good bark as feedback builds up instantly. Almost as loud as some barking dog demonstrations.
I shot several clips, but couldn't decide which was best, they all were kind of ordinary. I should do something that's more clever. Presentation is everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3lS3TBuntw

Formatik - 15-2-2011 at 13:25

Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  
I successfully ran the experiment of sodium dichloroisocyanuric acid with DMSO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRlM5PBbJ24


The trick is to inject the DMSO at the SIDE of the pile of NaDCCA. If you do it on top the heat just blows it back into the air and doesn't ignite.


Nice video. I've learned something new about the reaction. I couldn't get granules to ignite, so I used to grind the powder and then just dripped the sulfoxide on it. The greater surface area made a big difference. This is even more crucial to the KMnO4 and DMSO reaction, where permanganate should be pulverized for best results. What can also help, is to make small volcano-like piles with the powder, this allows better absorption of the liquid.

Morgan - 17-2-2011 at 21:17

I took a spring out of a writing pen and put in it 5 cylindrical pellets of palladium on alumia .5%. Then I wound about a foot of .002ths platinum wire around the spring as best I could. It's really hard working with wire you can barely see. I put the contraption in a 250ml Erlynmeyer flask with a bit a methanol. It started a fire twice but was very slow. A few other times the ceramic alumina catalyst got hot but didn't transfer enough heat to the wire, but did sizzle when dipped in the pool of methanol, so I know they were that hot. I think the spring, although allowing plenty of breathing, sapped too much of the heat away from the Pt wire or perhaps the platinum wire was not making good contact with the pellets. .002ths Pt wire will light methanol vapor quite quickly if coiled and preheated and placed in a flask of methanol. It's really quite a challenge to design just the right arrangement. As is, it was slow and only lit the fumes half of my 4 tries.
I can't get over how fast the previous experiment of 1%platinum on alumina powder lights up though, for today the petri dish it was in lit in less than 2 seconds, methanol aflame almost instantly. Perhaps there's a way to electrically sinter it onto some platinum wire without destroying the surface area effect. I'm going to see how eyedroppering methanol on it will do. Tomorrow is palladium on carbon, 1.25%. The carbon catalyst is like broken pencil lead segments, not flat on the ends, but smooth on the sides.

MrHomeScientist - 18-2-2011 at 09:08

That all sounds really exciting, Morgan. Always cool to hear about people really throwing themselves into experimentation! Sounds like you've got a lot of possibilities laid out, I'm eager to see them in action!

Morgan - 18-2-2011 at 12:31

Thanks for the encouragement MrHomeScientist. Once/if I get a less fragile homemade igniting device, I can use it for some more interesting demonstrations other than just starting a fire. The palladium on carbon rod bits 1.25% heat up, but I had to preheat them once with a methanol flame. Then I let them sit in the open petri dish for over an hour. They then heated up on their own when misted. Strange how this activation works.
I also tried the last catalyst I have, some platinum on alumina 5%. Now this catalyst has been idle in a plastic bottle for many years. I had to transfer it because the bottle was so old it about cracked. But the irregular sized beads, a little smaller than BB's activated without any help at all when misted with methanol. The petri dish was so hot it burned my fingers when I went to feel for any heat on the bottom of the dish.
I think if I use a coil of heavier Pt wire surrounding the Pt on alumina beads, along with the fine Pt wire wrapped in some fashion around the two, this will be my best bet, barring an electrical sintering process. I have some high voltage devices and I guess too you don't need that much power to heat a tiny wire.
Here's a few pictures of the catalysts, hopefully making this more interesting. I bought all this stuff on eBay when Pt was still relatively cheap. In the one picture from left to right is 5% Pt on alumina beads, Pt 1% on alumina powder, Pd 1.25% on carbon rod bits, and Pd .5% on alumina pellets.



Prills, Pellets, and Powder.JPG - 79kB Pt Wire .002.JPG - 72kB Various Catalysts.JPG - 68kB



[Edited on 19-2-2011 by Morgan]

Attachment: phpyuDYQr (72kB)
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kuro96inlaila - 19-2-2011 at 06:45

I managed to use my retort stand as tripod to stabilize the camera.So here the new video about potassium metal and tissue paper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y6d8cUTOJ4

NurdRage - 19-2-2011 at 10:42

looking good! i'll probably use that one!

MrHomeScientist - 19-2-2011 at 12:26

I tried reacting Al + I2 powders, but it didn't catch fire like I hoped it would. It was also way slower to start up than I expected, it took about 10 minutes to initiate. I only used 3g of each reagent, so perhaps a bit of a scale up is in order? :)

edit: I powdered the reagents finely and mixed them together thoroughly and even added a few drops of water to get it going, but it still took the 10 minutes to do anything.

[Edited on 2-19-2011 by MrHomeScientist]

kuro96inlaila - 19-2-2011 at 19:38

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
I tried reacting Al + I2 powders, but it didn't catch fire like I hoped it would. It was also way slower to start up than I expected, it took about 10 minutes to initiate. I only used 3g of each reagent, so perhaps a bit of a scale up is in order? :)

edit: I powdered the reagents finely and mixed them together thoroughly and even added a few drops of water to get it going, but it still took the 10 minutes to do anything.

[Edited on 2-19-2011 by MrHomeScientist]


Try to mix them in stoichiometric amount,for an example, 6.3g of powdered I2 and and 1.3g aluminium powder,thoroughly mixed and then add a few drop of water,it should initiated much more faster.

Good luck!:)

MrHomeScientist - 21-2-2011 at 15:49

Success! Thanks for the advice kuro96inlaila, that worked much better :D I did 5g of iodine and about 1g of aluminum (trying to skimp on the I2, since I need it for something else). It's a really beautiful reaction!

Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0H5EwVbkQM
I'll make this into a full video later and make it public on my channel. I've got more footage of preparing the mixture, I just wanted to skip to the chase in this clip.

NurdRage, how's that look for the collab video?

NurdRage - 21-2-2011 at 21:08

WOW, that is amazing!

Definitely using that for the collab video!

:)

kuro96inlaila - 21-2-2011 at 22:19

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Success! Thanks for the advice kuro96inlaila, that worked much better :D I did 5g of iodine and about 1g of aluminum (trying to skimp on the I2, since I need it for something else). It's a really beautiful reaction!


You're welcomed,
Beautiful reaction!:D

Morgan - 22-2-2011 at 14:08

I did a slight variation on a theme, a rough mix of iodine and ammonium nitrate sprinkled over a pile of powdered magnesium. Then I put a few drops of methanol on the pile because it was closer than getting some water. It was kind of glittery with magnesium and a pretty vapor of course.
I also crudely mixed a pile of aluminum powder and iodine. While it didn't light without help, (I cut to the chase with a pencil torch), it did smolder in a pleasant way. There was no wind, so the beautiful cloud just sat above the pile with a gentle bouyancy.

Morgan - 22-2-2011 at 16:38

I'm having some difficulty deciding how to design a platinum lighter of sorts that can take a bit of buffeting without damage. Fine delicate Pt wire will get torn in any kind of abrupt ignition. One thing I thought of was to put the wires and high surface area bead inside a piece of tiny glass tubing. If this were held in the verticle, there could be a chimney effect helping to ignite the fuel/air mix by drawing fresh air up from the bottom. The tubing might provide some protection for the wires as well. With my crude spring and pellet design, I think some of the fresh air was getting used up and not letting the wound wire have enough oxygen to light reliably.
This example uses a chamber too, but requires a small amount of electricity to start the reaction. It doesn't rely on convection though. I read of this plug many years ago.
http://www.smartplugs.com/
There is a convection trick they use with the glowing Pt wire in an Erlynmeyer flask where they put a simple partitiion in the neck and the coil on one side. This causes cold air to flow into the flask and the opposite side the heat of the reaciton causes the fumes to rise. Another good example is that of a candle in the bottom of a tube. By dividing the tube in half with a long strip of cardboard, the candle stays lit. If you pull the carboard partition out, the candle is extinguished.
Now I have to decide how to bundle several spider web thin wires and PT bead into something that will sit and stay inside a glass tube of some ideal diameter.
As an aside, here is a topic on achieving a high surface area in a platinum catalyst.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLh5YsIYc2w

A bit more for perspective on the smart plug. I guess you could say it's a modified glow plug.
http://www.smartplugs.com/smartplug/index.html
http://www.smartplugs.com/about.htm

"Inside each unit lies a ceramic rod coated with a catalyst-typically platinum, but sometimes rhodium, palladium, or ceria. The rod threads into the SMARTPLUG's crown and lies centered within a hollow cylindrical chamber that extends the length of the body. At the tip of the SMARTPLUG, a set of flame nozzles exhaust the chamber to the engine cylinder."
http://www.smartplugs.com/news/designnews.htm


[Edited on 23-2-2011 by Morgan]

NurdRage - 23-2-2011 at 10:14

For the collaborative video you don't have to go that far. The objective with the video is just to demonstrate various approaches. We don't need to go overboard and create a fully functional how-to with this. If you wish to create a complete guide by all means, but there is no need to go through all that effort for the video. The demo with the spray-on methanol is all we really need. :)

The Explosive Reaction Between Swimming Pool Chlorine and Brake Fluid

slinky - 23-2-2011 at 13:35

"Granular swimming pool chlorine (calcium hypochlorite) and brake fluid (poly-ethylene glycol) react violently when mixed together, producing a fierce fireball. This paper proposes a mechanism which explains the production of the flammable products of the reaction by means of a radical fragmentation of polyethylene glycol."

See the attached reference for details.

Attachment: JFS363910902.pdf (313kB)
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[Edited on 2.23.2011 by slinky]

Morgan - 23-2-2011 at 13:53

I realise I was straying off-topic but there are some good demonstrations of usefulness with catalysts and I didn't want to keep making a new part every time I did an ignition becaue of fragility.
I thought of one thing that would be easy to do not involving fragility. If you have seen the sondhauss tube effect with melted sulfur and steel wool in a test tube, I think you could do a Rijke tube with catalysts "burning" methanol merely by adding/wicking methanol to a catalytic grid. The other day I misted my platinum coated beads and got down to eye level with the dish. While it didn't light the methanol, you could certainly feel the heat on the bottom of the petri dish and see heat waves lifting off the surface of the pile of beads, methanol "burning" in a kind of interesting mirage effect. The grid would get fresh air from the bottom of the tube via convection.
They also call these tubes howler tubes, but usually the demo is a wire screen heated with a torch, focused sunlight or an electrically heated grid to build feedback. I once read of a very large howler tube purring quietly in a classroom but being set off by a simple tap of a tuning fork across the room of the correct frequency. The sound/feedback then became deafening and the chalkboards rattling. I like weird things like that.
Anyway the sound would be an auditory way of detecting combustion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT_iTV7QeDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMoRkEffFOQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv0ulNLRkWM
Sulfur Iron Whistle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7HidVyFdn8





[Edited on 23-2-2011 by Morgan]

NurdRage - 23-2-2011 at 20:31

Quote: Originally posted by slinky  
"Granular swimming pool chlorine (calcium hypochlorite) and brake fluid (poly-ethylene glycol) react violently when mixed together, producing a fierce fireball. This paper proposes a mechanism which explains the production of the flammable products of the reaction by means of a radical fragmentation of polyethylene glycol."

See the attached reference for details.



[Edited on 2.23.2011 by slinky]


I tried the pool chlorine and break fluid a few weeks ago but nothing happened. Although it might be because i have old stuff.

Has anyone else tried this?

mnick12 - 23-2-2011 at 20:41

I remember trying a variant of this a couple of years ago. I didnt have any brake fluid so I thought I would try glycerin, well it reacted but not in the way I expected. After pouring the glycerin on the hypochlorite the mix started to steam then bubble then it smoker vigorously for about 20 seconds, but I was never able to achieve ignition.It was a nice smoke bomb but it didnt really do anything else. Oh and it STANK, imagine burnt sugar and chlorine.

hkparker - 23-2-2011 at 22:17

I tried pool Ca(ClO)2 with sulfur as suggested earlier, however it didn't react. I believe this to be due to the hypochlorite containing large amounts of TCCA, so maybe it will react in a more pure form.

Anyway I have hardly found enough free time to shoot, even for my own channel, but I should be free this weekend. Here's what I hope to film:

KMnO4 and glycerin.
KClO3, sugar, and sulfuric acid.
Manganese heptoxide and ...stuff.

Those are the obvious ones. Ill also do:

Acetylene and chlorine
"Negative X" flash powder (silver nitrate, zinc, and ammonium chloride)
I'm looking into ICl and some organics.
And maybe sifting flower over the reactions to create a bigger flame :)

UnintentionalChaos - 24-2-2011 at 22:41

I've got spontaneous ignition of parrafin wax vapor working. I'll make video. This is the test tube in water demo I had mentioned earlier. After doing it a few times, I have different ideas about the mechanics. It's above the autoignition temperature at boiling. Water seeping into the cracked tube after plunging into ice water creates a steam explosion that sprays the wax out as a mist. This spontaneously ignites when dispersed in air.

Here's someone else's video of the demo:

<iframe sandbox title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4vDM22dplrk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Edited on 2-25-11 by UnintentionalChaos]

Morgan - 25-2-2011 at 09:58

I liked how casual the demonstration was, one hand on the goggles. I came across this article on paraffin. It came to mind when I was thinking about the demonstration, how sodium melts at a low temperature but boils at a relatively high temperature. So I got to wondering what the boiling point of wax was.

"Because of the difficulty in controlling the heating rate in a microwave oven, paraffin
wax should only be heated to melting point in a water bath with a controllable
electric heat source.
Direct heating over an electric mantle or in a microwave oven could easily produce
temperatures of the same order as the flash point (180oC) thus greatly increasing the
likelihood of ignition. Since the melting point is about 60oC and the boiling point is
370oC, uncontrolled heating could easily push the temperature of the molten liquid into
this zone. Obviously, heating with a bunsen burner or other gas flame would also be
highly likely to produce a fire and must be expressly forbidden." ha
http://www.uq.edu.au/ohs/pdfs/alert-paraffin.pdf

Another source
Flashpoint ( °C): 199°C
Boiling point: >370°C
Autoflammability: 245°C
http://www.logitech.uk.com/cn/MSDS/Files%5C0CON-194.pdf


[Edited on 25-2-2011 by Morgan]

Formatik - 27-2-2011 at 12:37

Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  
I tried the pool chlorine and break fluid a few weeks ago but nothing happened. Although it might be because i have old stuff.

Has anyone else tried this?


The amounts used may need to be larger. Fresh hypochlorite can likely influence the reaction. As it decomposes over time, Ca(OCl)2 forms CaCl2 and Ca(ClO3)2, both of which are very hygroscopic. The article below indicates methyl carbitol (a glycol ether) and dry hypochlorite react after a few minutes evolving irritating smoke and fire. Glycerin is said to react quicker. I have seen some other household products with similar glycol compounds, those could react to give fire (I'm betting at least with permanganate).

Attachment: ie50592a013.pdf (642kB)
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There is also equal parts of I2 with Al, Zn, or Mg. Adding a drop of water is said to cause ignition and release iodine vapors (mentioned in DOI: 10.1021/ed032p273). The mixture with aluminium mixture was also discussed earlier in the thread.

Chordate - 27-2-2011 at 14:50

You can actually do a very similar thing with bacon grease and water.

Take a cast iron skillet with a few quarts of bacon grease in it, heat it over a campfire to just about it's smoke point, and then, using a 14 foot pole made by lashing a few oars together you carefully pour about 16 ounces of water into the bacon grease. The steam formed carries up the grease forming a nice fuel-air mixture, which ignites on the campfire. Sometimes you get 20-30 foot fireball.

Morgan - 27-2-2011 at 16:02

I remember when I was about 10, I put some Cox glow fuel on a small pile of calcium hypochlorite. It quickly turned the off-white granules an almost potassium dichromate orange color, and then a few seconds later a spontaneous crackly red fire. I guess back then the HTH chlorine product was 75% pure. One day I put little piles of sulfur and hypochlorite out in the yard and lit them with the hose. Another time I found out it would light without water for I had put a few tablespoons of well mixed sulfur and calcium hypochlorite in an empty plastic sulfur jar and hours later just after the lid was unscrewed, it went off in a near flash. Oh those days of innocent wonder.


NurdRage - 27-2-2011 at 22:43

HKparker has just given me his four videos on the following methods:

Acetylene + chlorine (via carbide)
manganese heptoxide
permanganate + glycerine
Sugar + chlorate

Thanks Hkparker.

If the rest of you want to send me your raw files, message me on a method. Alternatively i can swipe them through youtube although i prefer not to since the quality is lower.

i still want to get more methods, so if keep filming if you want to participate. :)

Morgan - 2-3-2011 at 20:23

Maybe you could do the paraffin test tube in water fire using sulfur instead.

Boiling Point: 832oF (444oC)
Freezing/Melting Point: 230-246oF (110-119oC)
Bulk Density: Lumps 75-115 lbs./ft3 Powder 33-80 lbs./ft3
Flashpoint: 405OF (207.2oC)
Flammable Limits: LEL: 3.3 UEL: 46.0
Auto-ignition Temperature: 478-511oF (248-266oC)
http://www.georgiagulfsulfur.com/properties.htm

NurdRage - 3-3-2011 at 07:16

kuro96inlaila gave me his video on potassium vs tissue paper, thanks kuro96inlaila.

things are looking good :)

Morgan - 4-3-2011 at 15:01

The second full paragraph talks about lowering the autoignition temperature with pure oxygen. Maybe a demonstration could be arranged around this philosophy.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ygATMSwPbtAC&pg=PA139&a...

Elawr - 4-3-2011 at 22:14

Did we mention introducing wad of turpentine-soaked paper towel into vessel of chlorine gas...lot of dense white fumes followed by flames and plenty of back smoke.

NurdRage - 5-3-2011 at 01:34

thanks MrHomeScientist for sending me his raw video on the reaction of aluminum and iodine!

KMnO4 + Ethylene Glycol

NurdRage - 6-3-2011 at 21:43

This is potassium permanganate and ethylene glycol (primary component of antifreeze)

almost exactly the same as glycerin:

<iframe sandbox title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6hxwOS4c1oE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Keep your submissions coming, if you want to send me raw files, upload them to megaupload first and then send me the link. I'll tell you when i finished downloading so you can take it off.

[Edited on 7-3-2011 by NurdRage]

MrHomeScientist - 7-3-2011 at 08:55

I did a large scale version of acetylene + chlorine yesterday, and I'll put it on megaupload soon. I know hkparker already sent you one, but mine's short and might make for a good extra segment. I'll leave that up to you.

I also tried making manganese heptoxide, but that failed twice. The first time I used battery acid, and it only made the purple color of dissolved KMnO4 and had no reaction at all. Next I tried more concentrated 15M acid - this produced a brown color and also showed no reaction. I'm thinking the acid needs further concentration, since producing Mn2O7 requires the dehydrating power of H2SO4 - does that sound right?

NurdRage - 7-3-2011 at 10:14

yeah, manganese heptoxide needs conc. (98%) sulfuric acid to work reliably.

By all means send me duplicates and repeat experiments, the more angle we get the better :)

slinky - 8-3-2011 at 14:59

Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  


I tried the pool chlorine and break fluid a few weeks ago but nothing happened. Although it might be because i have old stuff.

Has anyone else tried this?


If you search "Chlorine and Brake Fluid " on youtube you can see many videos of fireballs and small explosions being made. I haven't personally tried this. Also keep in mind that there are several different blends of break fluids. http://www.advancepetro.com/differentbrakefluid.htm I'm thinking that the 5.1 would be the best choice.

slinky - 8-3-2011 at 21:02

Here is a US army technical manual which includes several methods of starting fire with chemicals.

[Edited on 3.9.2011 by slinky]

mewrox99 - 8-3-2011 at 21:04

Where is this manual you speak of?
It sounds super interesting

slinky - 8-3-2011 at 21:11

Sorry about that. I exceeded the 2 MB attachment limit. So the board allowed me to post but stripped the TM

http://www.multiupload.com/Y09P1DE2WI

hkparker - 8-3-2011 at 22:46

I should be doing a water activated flash powder (the NH4NO3/AgNO3/Mg type) in the next few days and ill send that around to you NurdRage. After that I wanna do a short about spraying flower over any method of fire, ill get on my table outside and make a big demo of it. Then that will be all for me. Sounds like this is really coming together :)

mewrox99 - 9-3-2011 at 12:49

Hey Nurdrage

Can i msg u the raw file of the chip in Mn2O7.

slinky - 9-3-2011 at 13:55

"Hypergolics" are chemicals that ignite upon mixing with an incompatible material. These mixtures create heat when mixed which is sufficient to cause ignition. No ignition source is necessary. Storage and use of these materials must be thought out carefully. Examples of these groups are provided.

* perchloric acid + magnesium powder = fire
* acetone + 85%nitric acid = fire
* nitric acid + phenol = fire
* concentrated nitric acid + triethylamine = fire
* red fuming nitric acid + aromatic amines = fire
* divinyl ether + 96% nitric acid + 5% sulfuric acid = fire
* 90% solution of potassium permanganate in red fuming nitric acid + alcohols = fire
* solid potassium permanganate + ketones, esters, alcohols = fire

Source: http://safety.science.tamu.edu/combreact.html

Running a patent search for "Hypergolic" returned 820 results. Here are some of the results.





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NurdRage - 9-3-2011 at 19:14

@hkparker looking forward to it!

@Mewrox99 sure, just send me the megaupload link

hkparker - 10-3-2011 at 18:53

I was wrong about my negative x formula, ill be doing two, silver nitrate/magnesium and ammonium nitrate/zinc/sodium chloride

Formatik - 10-3-2011 at 20:48

Quote: Originally posted by slinky  
...

* perchloric acid + magnesium powder = fire
* acetone + 85%nitric acid = fire
* nitric acid + phenol = fire
* concentrated nitric acid + triethylamine = fire
* red fuming nitric acid + aromatic amines = fire
* divinyl ether + 96% nitric acid + 5% sulfuric acid = fire
* 90% solution of potassium permanganate in red fuming nitric acid + alcohols = fire
* solid potassium permanganate + ketones, esters, alcohols = fire

Source: http://safety.science.tamu.edu/combreact.html


Usually in those sorts of lists, the reactions do not work as one might think. Sometimes you need large amounts, because they are talking about hazards - where lab-scale and industrial-scale hazards are mixed together as precautions. The list also gets a bit too general.

The reaction of acetone with fuming nitric acid is detailed in the silver acetylmethylnitrolate thread. In small amounts, it does not catch fire, but crackles violently and gases off nitrogen oxides heavily, because of the products of the reaction it seems it's more likely to explode than ignite in larger amounts.

The percentage of KMnO4 in red fuming nitric acid which is said to make primary aliphatic and some secondary alcohols immediately hypergolic with the acid, is 20% according to Brethericks. I had some success in getting a flame from this oxidant mixture and turpentine. But not MeOH, EtOH in small quantities.

I've mixed KMnO4 with ethyl lactate, diethyltoluamide, and methylethylketone and none ignited or glowed after several minutes. The ethyl lactate was the only one to visibly react and reduced the permanganate turning brown under mild evolution of fumes within a few seconds.

slinky - 10-3-2011 at 22:51

Quote: Originally posted by Formatik  

The reaction of acetone with fuming nitric acid is detailed in the silver acetylmethylnitrolate thread. In small amounts, it does not catch fire, but crackles violently and gases off nitrogen oxides heavily, because of the products of the reaction it seems it's more likely to explode than ignite in larger amounts.


Gave this a whirl at a .6 mole scale. No fire.

98% H2SO4 was added to NaNO3 waited for it to start fuming then added the (CH3)2CO. Lots of angry fumes, no fire :\








Thanks for the tip about the list Formatik. Having never combined any of those chemicals I took Dr. Nancy Magnussen at her word. I figured a list from a school would be legitimate because they know what has caused fires in their labs in the past. I do indeed see your point that just because something started a fire one time that doesn't mean it will reliably start a fire every time.

mewrox99 - 12-3-2011 at 23:05

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZDFSEXUP

There is the potato chip video.

Has anyone tried H2 + Mn2O7. I'd imagine that would be an epic (but potentially fatal) reaction

hkparker - 13-3-2011 at 21:02

Nitrile gloves + RFNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHNkil-zOaI

EDIT:

Anyone else want to do this one or should I?

[Edited on 14-3-2011 by hkparker]

Morgan - 14-3-2011 at 10:15

I was reading some old literature I have, a few pages copied out of a book entitled "Generation and Measurement of Sound in Gases" by R.W. Leonard.
There is mention of using sirens that produce intensities to cause cotton to busrt into flames by the absorption of acoustic energy. It might be kind of interesting to see.
Here's some tidbit I dug up on the net.
"Izzy loved to use demonstrations in his teaching. His public lectures at UCLA, given under the title of “An Evening of Demonstration Experiments in Physics,” where always standing room only. He would levitate objects in high-intensity sound fields and make cotton burst into flames as it absorbed the abundant acoustic energy generated by his siren. Though simple in appearance, these demonstrations included fresh discoveries, which quickly became part of the curriculum because, as Izzy put it, “Today’s research is tomorrow’s homework.”
http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/senate/inmemoriam/isad...

Silent sounds are hot
http://books.google.com/books?id=RigDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA135&a...

[Edited on 14-3-2011 by Morgan]

slinky - 14-3-2011 at 15:08

Quote: Originally posted by hkparker  
Nitrile gloves + RFNA

Anyone else want to do this one or should I?

[Edited on 14-3-2011 by hkparker]


I'll give it a go.

MrHomeScientist - 17-3-2011 at 08:34

I've seen a few references that talk about why you shouldn't store chemicals alphabetically, and this caught my eye:
"Ammonium Nitrate - Acetic Acid Mixture may result in ignition, especially if acetic acid in concentrated. "

Anyone ever try this? I imagine it won't work with ordinary vinegar.

ScienceSquirrel - 17-3-2011 at 08:44

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
I've seen a few references that talk about why you shouldn't store chemicals alphabetically, and this caught my eye:
"Ammonium Nitrate - Acetic Acid Mixture may result in ignition, especially if acetic acid in concentrated. "

Anyone ever try this? I imagine it won't work with ordinary vinegar.


As vinegar is about 6% acetic acid the answer is no. You might as well try and set fire to beer on the grounds that it has alcohol in it.
I suspect that a mixture of ammonium nitrate and glacial acetic acid around the consistency of a thick paste is required.

slinky - 17-3-2011 at 23:35

Ok, I'm starting to think that the problem is me doing something wrong. The glove also failed to produce fire.

I added the glove and all it did was char. Perhaps the glove has a funky composition? My source of rfna was adding 55g H2SO4 to 50g KNO3. I waited a bit then added the glove. Maybe I added the glove too soon? My KNO3 source is an old bottle of dexol stump remover which is 100% KNO3 per the msds. In my previous post I misspoke and said it was NaNO3 when really it was KNO3.

Am I doing it wrong ?

http://www.multiupload.com/BM6GHCIL0I
^ video of failed nitrile glove fire


[Edited on 3.18.2011 by slinky]

hkparker - 18-3-2011 at 06:38

Quote: Originally posted by slinky  
Ok, I'm starting to think that the problem is me doing something wrong. The glove also failed to produce fire.

I added the glove and all it did was char. Perhaps the glove has a funky composition? My source of rfna was adding 55g H2SO4 to 50g KNO3. I waited a bit then added the glove. Maybe I added the glove too soon? My KNO3 source is an old bottle of dexol stump remover which is 100% KNO3 per the msds. In my previous post I misspoke and said it was NaNO3 when really it was KNO3.

Am I doing it wrong ?

http://www.multiupload.com/BM6GHCIL0I
^ video of failed nitrile glove fire


[Edited on 3.18.2011 by slinky]


You might need distilled rfna. Can you distill it?

Morgan - 20-3-2011 at 08:51

I don't know if this one has been mentioned, but recalling the aluminum and iodine reaction, it might be interesting to try sprinkling aluminum or magnesium powder in chlorine gas.

slinky - 20-3-2011 at 14:02

Quote: Originally posted by hkparker  

You might need distilled rfna. Can you distill it?


I do indeed have the capacity to do that. If I have to distill it though I wont be storing the rfna so I'll retry all of the suggested rfna reactions on the same day. I wont be able to do this for about a week though as I'm out of town for a week.

mewrox99 - 24-3-2011 at 21:53

NaClO2 + Ascorbic Acid + H2O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXsQ6zhdMsU&feature=relat...

hkparker - 24-3-2011 at 21:57

Good find mewrox! When you get you chlorite I'm sure there will be a lot of unstable mixes like this to try. Do you have ascorbic acid?

The WiZard is In - 25-3-2011 at 07:03

Quote: Originally posted by slinky  
Ok, I'm starting to think that the problem is me doing something wrong. The glove also failed to produce fire.

You can make RFNA by adding formaldehyde to Conc HNO3.

Be warned the reaction is not instantaneous and use a wide
mouth vessel for it bubbles.

ScienceSquirrel - 25-3-2011 at 07:13

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
Quote: Originally posted by slinky  
Ok, I'm starting to think that the problem is me doing something wrong. The glove also failed to produce fire.

You can make RFNA by adding formaldehyde to Conc HNO3.

Be warned the reaction is not instantaneous and use a wide
mouth vessel for it bubbles.


I would not mix nitric acid with formaldehyde. It will not dehydrate the acid and it could result in a very nasty accident.

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/6341723-v1IOj1/6341...

mewrox99 - 25-3-2011 at 23:16

Hey Nurdrage When do the video entries close?

Because I ordered some Sodium chlorite (not chlorate) and it may take a month or so to arrive and they are several hypogolic reactions with that compound. I also have a nice new camera so I can record in HD

Won't adding a nitrate salt to conc. H2SO4 make RFNA.

And yes never mix formladahyde and HNO3 unless your in the mood for death



[Edited on 26-3-2011 by mewrox99]

NurdRage - 26-3-2011 at 17:58

The entries will go for as long a they need to until i'm satisfied we have enough and i can make a good video.

We have a lot so far but i want some more. So keep submitting :)

mnick12 - 27-3-2011 at 13:07

Well if anyone is looking for ideas CrO3 and acetone makes a spectacular fireball-whoooosh if done in a 250ml beaker. I would film this myself but I dont know where my camera is. Come to think of it CrO3 + any flammable liquid usually results in quite a nice fire.

hkparker - 3-4-2011 at 08:55

This is being talked about in the energetic materials section:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12932

Fine silicon powder and dry sodium hydroxide are mixed. Some water is added. A violent reaction occurs after a few seconds producing sodium silicate and hydrogen gas. Some water boils off as steam. The reaction gets so hot it eventually lights the hydrogen by its self. Looks pretty energetic and produces quite a flame. I dont have any elemental silicon at the moment but if I do and can mill it I will give this a try, but I think someone else should do it as well. This would also fit well in the "making hydrogen" idea we talked about at the beginning.

NurdRage - 3-4-2011 at 16:49

Interesting.... I wonder where i can find fine powdered silicon.

hkparker - 3-4-2011 at 16:54

I was thinking of making silicon from sand based thermite then milling it in a small ball mill.

UnintentionalChaos - 3-4-2011 at 16:54

Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  
Interesting.... I wonder where i can find fine powdered silicon.


I have germanium powder of unknown purity. I could see if that works equally well. Nevermind, I don't own that much of it... :|

[Edited on 4-4-11 by UnintentionalChaos]

MrHomeScientist - 3-4-2011 at 18:18

Quote: Originally posted by hkparker  
I was thinking of making silicon from sand based thermite then milling it in a small ball mill.


That was what I was thinking too. I've got the products of my video on silicon thermite that are already about the size of sand, so I can try and grind those down and see how that works.

I also tried out a few mL glacial acetic acid + powdered ammonium nitrate today, but nothing happened :( Doesn't seem that incompatible to me!

hkparker - 3-4-2011 at 18:23

Awesome mrhomescientist, let us know how it goes. From what I read the silicon needs to be pretty fine.

Mindchemist - 5-4-2011 at 19:36

You could also try sodium phosphide in water:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWVOHX52tbw

mewrox99 - 5-4-2011 at 23:25

Any ways to make fire with hydroxylamine hydrochloride?

I'm positive that NaClO2 will react extremely exothermicly with it. I might try it with 100mg amounts when the NaClO2 arrivess

MrHomeScientist - 6-4-2011 at 19:21

I tried the Si + NaOH reaction tonight, and it definitely works! Mine didn't ignite unfortunately, but it was glowing hot at the end. I'm sure all it's going to take is scaling up a bit more, and possibly using less water.

I used 5.3g powdered silicon (crushed from pure Si chunks, not my thermite-grade material), 15.2g NaOH prills, and about 20mL water. Stoichiometrically only a few mL is required, but it seemed to me that extra water is needed to really get the reaction going. Even after the reaction looked done, adding more water produced a lot more bubbles.

I'm pretty amazed at this reaction. It's not something I would have expected to happen at all.

Short video clip of my most successful trial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FxjGltIZ-Y

hkparker - 6-4-2011 at 19:26

Awesome! I'm in the process of making some silicon, then I'll give it a try as well. If I can get it to ignite I'll send along a video to NurdRage, you should too MrHomeScientist for some more footage. Try lighting the stream of hydrogen with a lighter.

mewrox99 - 15-4-2011 at 20:11

I may get some Ca(OCl)2 soon. I'll see what I can do with that.

Also my NaClO2 still hasn't arrived. Maybe I'm being impatient since it's only been two weeks since it's shipped, but if those customs folks are the culprit.... :mad:


EDIT:

I've seen a video of pool chlorine and sulfur spontainously igniting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dENDpGR_OAk

I dunno if it's Ca(OCl)2 or TCCA but I suspect the former

[Edited on 16-4-2011 by mewrox99]

Morgan - 16-4-2011 at 07:52

I used to mix prilled ammonium nitrate and pool chlorine and it would snap, crackle, pop in a very energetic fashion like popping popcorn only more lively. It never lit on fire but it seemed like it got pretty hot. I stood upwind to avoid potentially hazardous gases. It sort of sounded like lighting a string of firecrackers.
No telling what gases are released so don't risk your health with these mixtures. I hosed down the area thoroughly after the reaction too, to make sure everything was washed away safely.
Back in the 80's I bought a 50 pound bag of NH4NO3 for six dollars. I also took a tour of Air Products and saw a slide show. The fellow told me of an explosion at the plant one time where it threw some pieces of metal a great distance.

[Edited on 16-4-2011 by Morgan]

hkparker - 16-4-2011 at 07:57

Quote: Originally posted by mewrox99  

I've seen a video of pool chlorine and sulfur spontainously igniting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dENDpGR_OAk

I dunno if it's Ca(OCl)2 or TCCA but I suspect the former



I tried mixing my Ca(ClO)2 and sulfur and didn't get a reaction, but that's probably because my Ca(ClO)2 isn't very pure.

EDIT: ill try this again in larger amounts and see if I can reproduce this.

[Edited on 16-4-2011 by hkparker]

Morgan - 16-4-2011 at 08:03

When I was a boy I used to mix calcium hypochlorite and sulfur and light the little piles I set out with a fine spray from a garden hose. Back then it was 75%.

hkparker - 16-4-2011 at 08:17

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
When I was a boy I used to mix calcium hypochlorite and sulfur and light the little piles I set out with a fine spray from a garden hose. Back then it was 75%.


I believe mine is 48%, so I think that's why it didn't work.

mewrox99 - 16-4-2011 at 14:38

I just got some of the 60% stuff and tried 50/50 with S

No fire

Morgan - 16-4-2011 at 16:44

Anybody know what the inert ingredient(s) might be with the calcium hypochlorite?

mewrox99 - 16-4-2011 at 16:50

Calcium chloride and Calcium hydroxide with trace Calcium carbonate

hkparker - 16-4-2011 at 22:07

Im not sure how easy that would be to completely separate, but probably pretty easy to get it more pure. Ca(OH)2 is only slightly soluble, so you could increase purity by dissolving then filtering. Recrystallization is an option, though I'm not sure about the solubility curve for CaCl2, but I think it would crystallize out as well. Anyway I'm sure purity could be increased, maybe enough to start the sulfur fire.

@NurdRage, any ideas on when your planning on releasing the video? I know were waiting for all the fun that mewrox99 is going to be having with NaClO2 :D but aside from that has the editing process started yet? Are we going to pick a name for the channel? I dont want to seem like I'm rushing things, I understand quality takes quite some time but just wanted to know what the plans are.

mnick12 - 16-4-2011 at 22:36

I dont think recrystallization would work for Ca(ClO)2, hypochlorites are very unstable in aqueous solutions at high concentrations and would most likely dissociate into chlorate and chloride when recrystallizing. In fact the reason why you can "smell" bleach or solid pool shock is from decomposition of the hypochlorite.

hkparker - 16-4-2011 at 22:39

Very true, I just tried dissolving mine and the solution turned green. Maybe some that didn't decompose could be recovered. I only say this because I've heard other people on this forum do it.

NurdRage - 18-4-2011 at 05:19

@hkparker

I still feel more videos are needed. But if ya think i should start editing it now i'll see what i can do.

hkparker - 18-4-2011 at 08:47

No that's fine, let's keep em coming. Just wanted to know what the plans are. This video will be pretty cool if we show a ton of ways.

Hades_Foundation - 18-4-2011 at 21:45

My KMnO4 didn't do diddly with glycerin. Can't remember how old it is, but at least 25 years. Shouldn't have kept it in a glass jar I guess... :(

ScienceSquirrel - 19-4-2011 at 02:43

Quote: Originally posted by Hades_Foundation  
My KMnO4 didn't do diddly with glycerin. Can't remember how old it is, but at least 25 years. Shouldn't have kept it in a glass jar I guess... :(


You could try adding a small amount of the potassium permanganate to water, if it disssolves completely to form a purple solution it is fine.
Drying the glycerine by heating it to above 100C can be helpful as can freshly grinding the potassium permanganate. You want a lot more permanganate than glycerine as well, it is easy to 'drown' the reaction.

MrHomeScientist - 19-4-2011 at 16:35

Bah, I can't seem to get this Si + NaOH + H2O reaction to ignite :mad:

This time I used 7.2g Si powder, 23.1gNaOH, and maybe 20mL H2O, and it bubbled and splattered like in my previous post but no ignition. This time I buried the cup in the ground to try to contain the products and heat, but that didn't do me any good.

I don't know how that guy did it in a dixie cup. He must have used a lot more than I did, but I have to grind my silicon manually so I haven't made too much at a time yet. Maybe my Si powder isn't fine enough either.

mewrox99 - 19-4-2011 at 22:49

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cKO7OKmnYo&

NaClO2 Arrived :D

Nice big fire with sugar + H2SO4.

Gonna make some ClO2 tomorrow

NurdRage - 20-4-2011 at 20:08

interesting!

Lambda-Eyde - 20-4-2011 at 20:49

What is this "accident with sodium chlorite" you speak of on your youtube channel, mewrox? I hope it's nothing serious and that you're not really quitting chemistry? :(

mewrox99 - 20-4-2011 at 23:06

Nothing to serious. Mix self ignited whilst holding it in filter paper. Minor burn on my hand. I've decided that I was impulsive and stupid in making this mixture and took it as my final warning.

I still practice chemistry at school. But hobby chemistry is dangerous and I believe I am above my depth. Myfanwy94 had many signs and warnings of trouble to come. Had he listened he still would have been alive today

I don't wish to talk about this further. I'm actually rather embarrassed about this incident and have only gone into specific detail with my good friends on SM and youtube.

Also Nurdrage here is my entry for your video project. NaClO2 + Sugar
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=35I4ME4K

[Edited on 21-4-2011 by mewrox99]

[Edited on 21-4-2011 by mewrox99]

woelen - 21-4-2011 at 00:05

I'm not sure where I warned for the reactivity of NaClO2 recently. I know of mewrox99's order of this chemical and somewhere on the forum I warned about the reactivity of this material. Please be careful with this!

Quote:
Gonna make some ClO2 tomorrow

...even more so with the ClO2. DON'T MAKE MORE THAN TESTTUBE QUANTITIES OF THIS GAS!!

I have had a few explosions with ClO2, but because only test tubes full of this gas were involved and these tubes were unstoppered no dangerous things happened, but be warned. This gas is notoriously unstable.

I have NaClO2 from the same source as mewrox99, and it is awesome stuff!

mewrox99 - 21-4-2011 at 00:30

ClO2 exploded the 1st time i made it. But it was only 0.3g NaClO2 and a squrt of HCl. No harm resulted from that experement
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