Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Making fire (youtube collaborative video)

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Megamarko94 - 21-4-2011 at 00:55

if you put sulfur with a small peace of white phosphorus...it ignites...

[Edited on 21-4-2011 by Megamarko94]

MrHomeScientist - 21-4-2011 at 05:36

Really sorry to hear about the mishap, mewrox99 :( I'd thought after seeing your potato chip in Mn2O7 nothing would frighten you! Safety definitely needs to be everyone's number one priority, but I do hope you'll continue doing chemistry in the future.


In other news, I found this reference on the wiki for potassium chlorate:

"Potassium chlorate can react with sulfuric acid to form a highly reactive solution of chloric acid and potassium sulfate:

2 KClO3 + H2SO4 → 2 HClO3 + K2SO4
The solution so produced is sufficiently reactive that it will spontaneously ignite if combustible material (sugar, paper, etc) is present."

Could be worth a try! I don't have any chlorate sadly, but I really want to build a chlorate cell (I just don't know what to do about electrodes).

kuro96inlaila - 22-4-2011 at 09:39

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Really sorry to hear about the mishap, mewrox99 :( I'd thought after seeing your potato chip in Mn2O7 nothing would frighten you! Safety definitely needs to be everyone's number one priority, but I do hope you'll continue doing chemistry in the future.


In other news, I found this reference on the wiki for potassium chlorate:

"Potassium chlorate can react with sulfuric acid to form a highly reactive solution of chloric acid and potassium sulfate:

2 KClO3 + H2SO4 → 2 HClO3 + K2SO4
The solution so produced is sufficiently reactive that it will spontaneously ignite if combustible material (sugar, paper, etc) is present."

Could be worth a try! I don't have any chlorate sadly, but I really want to build a chlorate cell (I just don't know what to do about electrodes).


Chloric acid and tissue paper......
I have try that way,but it rarely ignites.Chloric acid will only turn tissue paper into goey black substance actively.

No fire was generated.:(

ItalianChemist - 22-4-2011 at 09:47

Manganese heptoxide is simply to made and can ignite any organic compaund.
It can be preparated simply mixing some potassium permanganate with a few drops of concentrated sulphuric acid. The solution will turn dark green.
To test it, add a single drop of the green solution to some acetone!

NurdRage - 24-4-2011 at 19:53

This is REALLY REALLY dangerous, so only i'm going to do it:

a molten eutectic mixture of potassium and sodium hydroxide and then dropping in some magnesium. The magnesium reacts with the hydroxides to form NaK which at 200 celsius instantly catches fire.

Ofcourse it also shoots out droplets of flaming NaK and hydroxides so while full of pyrotechnic charm this is incredibly dangerous.

mewrox99 - 24-4-2011 at 21:17

Can't wait to see the footage. Please don't kill yourself that rxn seems ferociously dangerous

mewrox99 - 24-4-2011 at 21:19

Also as a part of the year of chemistry video competition my parents have let me do one last thing with chlorite. 0.5g of NaClO2/Ascorbic acid ignited by a drop of water. I can also submit the footage for the nurdrage project

NurdRage - 24-4-2011 at 22:04

sounds good

oh btw, i successfully got your other video too.

mewrox99 - 25-4-2011 at 03:50

Cool.

That reaction your trying seems stupidly dangerous. I probably did one of the most retarded things in my entire life the other day which lead to my accident. I think people are curious so I'll talk about it in detail

I mixed in total about 1g of NH2OH.HCl/NaClO2 together. Expecting they would ignite instantly when mixed i carefully with a long stick mixed them. No heat at all. So I poured into a peice of filter paper and waited a minute. Nothing. So I decided to take outside and light it. I then noticed I didn't have my camera and walked into my room (whilst holding it :( ) I grab the camera and was seconds from the door when a self ignited in my hand, (small fire)

This has scared me.

After further thinking I hate to think of the two chemicals could have reacted. Ie BOOM end of mewrox99 :(

If you think something will make a good youtube think it through in detail first.

I am very embarrassed to talk about this and that I could have done something so stupid!

I'm only 15 so decided and I'm probably not ready to be dealing with dangerous chemicals.

I got hyped up and didn't think things through.

I won't sell anything just pack away my stuff for a while.

Please don't judge me too harshly for this; everyone makes mistakes :(

<B> Impulsivity and chemistry are a DEADLY combination </b>

[Edited on 25-4-2011 by mewrox99]

woelen - 25-4-2011 at 22:46

@mewrox99: I do not judge you, I actually think that you are smarter than many older and more experienced people over here, or on other forums. I know of people who just go on with dangerous things, even after two or three of such warnings. You, however, did have an embarrassing experience and may feel retarted, but you consider it as a lesson learnt.

It's good to pack away your stuff for a few weeks, cool down a little bit and in the meantime read on and think of other new experiments (and keep visiting sciencemadness ;) ). But the interest will not die, it will remain and you will unpack your materials again and do new experiments.

The goddess of chemistry is beautiful, but when not handled with care, she can bite hard!

mewrox99 - 26-4-2011 at 00:09

Thanks for the knid words woelen.

ItalianChemist - 26-4-2011 at 09:47

Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  
This is REALLY REALLY dangerous, so only i'm going to do it:

a molten eutectic mixture of potassium and sodium hydroxide and then dropping in some magnesium. The magnesium reacts with the hydroxides to form NaK which at 200 celsius instantly catches fire.

Ofcourse it also shoots out droplets of flaming NaK and hydroxides so while full of pyrotechnic charm this is incredibly dangerous.

Sounds very interesting, NaK reacts very violently with water
Ins't easier starting from potassium and sodium if you have?
Anyway, this is very dangerous, do this only in a nitrogen or argon atmosphere!

NurdRage - 26-4-2011 at 22:03

I hear ya, i'll be taking the precautions necessary to be safe.

but yeah, i won't do this if i ultimately don't feel my precautions are adequate.

@mewrox99

Good to hear you're ok and still in one piece. By all means take time off and reevaluate your experimental approach. What we do is fun but its more fun if we're alive to see it. Do whatever you need to do to absolutely secure your safety. The last thing i want is anyone getting hurt doing this project.

Mumbles - 26-4-2011 at 22:22

The eutectic melting point of KOH/NaOH isn't much below the alledged ignition temp. I think it would be a questionable preparation.

If you're going to go through the trouble of making NaK, you can add using the potassium superoxide formed upon exposure to air to the self-ignition list. It will light up/explode with pretty much any organic.

[Edited on 4-27-2011 by Mumbles]

hkparker - 26-4-2011 at 22:29

Alkali metal superoxides/peroxides is a good idea. Ill make some sodium peroxide and try that with a few organics.

woelen - 27-4-2011 at 02:39

A funny experiment is taking fine granules of Na2O2 and put this on toilet paper and spray some water on this (e.g. with a flower sprayer). Only seconds after spraying the water on this, the whole mess inflames and burns with a very hot and bright flame. I did this experiment with 2 grams of Na2O2 and was amazed about the size and intensity of the resulting fire.

NurdRage - 27-4-2011 at 04:05

Quote: Originally posted by Mumbles  
The eutectic melting point of KOH/NaOH isn't much below the alledged ignition temp. I think it would be a questionable preparation.

If you're going to go through the trouble of making NaK, you can add using the potassium superoxide formed upon exposure to air to the self-ignition list. It will light up/explode with pretty much any organic.

[Edited on 4-27-2011 by Mumbles]


The whole point is to get it to ignite. I'm trying to make fire, not really trying to make NaK. :)

mewrox99 - 27-4-2011 at 05:09

Woelen's NaNO2 method sounds cool. Really need to get some nitrite sometime

EDIT: Fail shouldn't read so fast :)

[Edited on 28-4-2011 by mewrox99]

ItalianChemist - 27-4-2011 at 05:11

Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  


The whole point is to get it to ignite. I'm trying to make fire, not really trying to make NaK. :)

Put NaK into water!
Quote: Originally posted by mewrox99  
Woelen's NaNO2 method sounds cool. Really need to get some nitrite sometime

Na2O2....not NaNO2

[Edited on 27-4-2011 by ItalianChemist]

ScienceSquirrel - 27-4-2011 at 05:21

Sodium peroxide is not an easy material to get your hands on. :(

NurdRage - 27-4-2011 at 05:28

Quote: Originally posted by ItalianChemist  
Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  


The whole point is to get it to ignite. I'm trying to make fire, not really trying to make NaK. :)

Put NaK into water!



I don't have NaK.


And even if I did, you gotta realize essentially the reaction i'm going for is this:

(molten) NaOH + KOH + Mg ----> FIRE!

NaK is just an intermediate.



@ScienceSquirrel I thought you hated my video presentations and demanded i produced write-ups instead.

Why are you helping me for this video?

[Edited on 27-4-2011 by NurdRage]

Morgan - 27-4-2011 at 05:52

I was thinking if you had some mixture that was just stable around the freezing point of water, you could place it on a nearby thermogenic plant and start a fire that way. It's kind of a left field idea I know but it's seems conceptually possible to start a fire with the heat of a plant.

"Thermogenesis is rare in plants, but does occur in several species of Arum, and in the philodendron, as well as the skunk cabbage. The heat generation of these thermogenic plants is not trivial, either. Recent measurements of the titan arum “Ted”, at UC Davis, showed the inflorescence– the flower-like structure of the arum– could maintain a temperature of 32 degrees Centigrade (90 F), well above the surrounding air temperature of 20 C (68 F). The skunk cabbage can do even better, maintaining temperatures as high as 35 C, even when the air temperature is below freezing."
http://www.damninteresting.com/warm-blooded-plants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_skunk_cabbage

NurdRage - 27-4-2011 at 05:58

O_o

o_O

Thermogenic plants?

(head explodes)

This is actually a good video idea on its own! :D

Thanks! i'll look into this topic!

hkparker - 27-4-2011 at 15:26

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
Sodium peroxide is not an easy material to get your hands on. :(


My plan is to make crude Na2O2 by burning sodium. Ill try a few things (Woelen's tissue experiment, acetone, ethanol, sugar) and I will also be doing chromyl chloride and sulfur soon.


EDIT: update!

I made some crude sodium peroxide but had no luck with it. It bubbled in acetone and ethanol, would burn with magnesium when a drop of water was added. Ah well.

Sulfur and chromyl chloride video being sent to NurdRage.

[Edited on 28-4-2011 by hkparker]

mewrox99 - 27-4-2011 at 22:35

I'm really looking forward to seeing the end result of this project. Are you uploading the video to your Nurdrage channel or making a special channel

NurdRage - 28-4-2011 at 08:42

Since this is a community project, i will do what the contributors vote on.

Putting it on my channel we get more views upfront and we directly reach my 71000 subscribers. I will put links all over the video directly to contributor channels so the publicity is big.

Downside is that ads will probably be put on it and the contributors might not like me being "unjustly enriched" by that.

Putting it on a special channel negates that downside. I can't make money off it and everyone gets equal exposure. Downside to this is that the views are more variable. We may get lucky and the video catches on, or it might get lost into obscurity and only get a few hundred views.

I'm sure those of you with your own channels know how painful it is to start up. I remember the days when i get got 1-3 views on my videos.

So it'll leave it up to the contributors where they want to place the video.

hkparker - 28-4-2011 at 15:26

I really don't care if you make ad money off this NurdRage, but that's just me. I mean I'm getting publicity for this because of you, so its not like you arn't doing a service for me.

If other contributes feel otherwise yet still want it on NurdRage's channel it isn't hard to disable revenue sharing in the my videos section of YouTube, that way they won't put an ad on. Least that's how it works for me, I don't know if you have something else worked out NurdRage.

I like the idea of it's own channel, and I think if you put a video up NurdRage that points people to that channel we will still get significant views (I guess all your "loyal" subscribers will check it out). If you do that maybe include a preview of all the fiery reactions to get people interested :D

I don't know for sure what I want yet... anyone else?

mewrox99 - 28-4-2011 at 16:40

I'd love the publicity of having a video of mine (and a link to my channel) on the NurdRage channel. If you make a new channel the likelihood of it only getting a couple of hundred views would be high

Formatik - 1-5-2011 at 21:13

Alright, I've done some reactions, some of which I recorded. They can be used for the video also. I recently made some hydrazine hydrate (it's about 90% N2H5OH) and tested some of its reactions with several oxidants. Though it reacted vigorously with all, KMnO4 is the only oxidant that showed flame or some ignition. But the reaction is much more violent and short lived than a regular ignition, and so it does not produce a good burn.

The hydrazine hydrate in several drops sizzles vigorously forming gases with conc. HClO4, RFNA, Piranha acid (52%H2O2 with H2SO4), forming salts. With the chlorine oxidants: NaDCC, TCCA, halogenated hydantoins all sizzle vigorously giving white smoke forming some deep yellow color. The reaction with the halogenated hydantoins crackled a bit also (NCl3 formation possible). Ca(OCl)2 which is aged and clumpy and was said to be around 70%, sizzled giving off smoke without the color. When the hydrate was dripped onto potassium peroxodisulfate crystals, after a short delay the mixture got hot and gave off a large quantity of white smoke. All of the powdered piles seen below were volcano shaped to facilitate absorption better. Also recorded was the reaction of the hydrazine hydrate with about 52% H2O2 which is similar to a mixture tested by Germans as a rocket fuel. I wore a respirator and worked outside for all reactions, because it is the least necessary measure for health.

The reaction of KMnO4 with the hydrazine hydrate (on a tissue, and the other not):

N2H5OHwithKMnO4.png - 305kB

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0YNSGSBP
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ROT8PLOH

The tissue allowed better contact with the hydrate, because these two react so violently. The reaction does produce some flame and fireballs, but no ignition. Adding methanol in equal volume to the hydrate before reaction, made the reaction much milder without flame.

KMnO4 with 90% DMSO:

DMSOwithKMnO4.png - 279kB

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=K3WQ7X5I

The KMnO4 must be pulverized, or it doesn't work. Since DMSO and DMF react, KMnO4 might also react vigorously or ignite with other polar aprotic solvents like N-methylpyrrolidone, dimethylacetamide, tetramethylurea, tetramethylenesulfone, hexamethylphosphoramide, etc.

Brake fluid with KMnO4:

KMnO4withbrakefluid.png - 263kB

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=W152NKV6
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2O1XH3VV

Polyglycol ether brake fluid. Though there is normally a delay, the mixture has no consistent delay, since in one of the videos the mixture ignited right after mixing. In another instance, a 17 second delay.

Sodium dichloroisocyanurate (finely powdered) with 90% DMSO:

NaDCCandDMSO.png - 276kB

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NCA2ECK3

The gases from this reaction are especially horrible-smelling, and probably highly toxic.

Some other reactions:

Halogenated hydantoins with the hydrazine hydrate:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=K89TT5YZ

Violent interaction with a chlorinator containing 1-bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin, 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin, and 1,3-dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin.

Hydrogen peroxide (around 52%) with the hydrazine hydrate:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JEJLRJ6L

The hydrogen peroxide was added last here. The mixture has a very short delay, then begins frothing and gases off violently until both liquids are basically entirely evaporated. The reaction reminds me of a rocket that gases off before lift off. This reaction like all other hydrazine reactions vaporizes unreacted highly toxic hydrazine into the air.

[Edited on 2-5-2011 by Formatik]

woelen - 1-5-2011 at 22:40

A very violent and interesting reaction is the reaction between periodic acid and hydrazine.

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/hydrazine_pe...

I only had a dilute solution of hydrazine, made from N2H4.2HCl and NaOH. If you have the pure stuff, then I can imagine that this results in a very violent blast, possibly with fire.

NurdRage - 1-5-2011 at 23:50

Thanks Formatik, i've downloaded the vids. Impressive work.


Woelen, are you submitting your vids for the project as well? and if so, which one? or both?

woelen - 2-5-2011 at 01:43

You may use the video's from that webpage for your project, but there is no real fire involved. I merely provided this page as an idea for someone who has access to pure or 90% hydrazine and solid periodic acid. That combination would be really awesome, given the violence of the reaction of that dilute solution, which I used in my experiments. But if you want to use these videos anyway, then you may download them from my site and put them in your YouTube channel.

What might be more interesting for your project is the reaction between chlorine gas and acetylene gas, which I have filmed. I also filmed the reaction between chlorine gas and phosphine. Finally, you may find the reaction of a red P/Al/KNO3 mix, which is thrown in chlorine gas interesting for your channel. You may use the videos from these pages as well:

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/cl2_c2h2/ind...
http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/ph3_cl2/inde...
http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/chlorine_fla...

I have a few more experiments in which fire is made without a heat source (e.g. Mn2O7 in which acetone is dripped), but others already have contributed videos for that. I think that the above three are quite interesting for your project.


Maybe I'll try a few "idiot experiments" (at a very small scale) next weekend for your project:
- LiAlH4 mixed with very fine powder of KClO4 and adding a tiny drop of water
- LiAlH4 mixed with crunched crystals of KClO3 and adding a tiny drop of water
- LiAlH4 mixed with crunched crystals of 80% NaClO2/20% NaCl and adding a tiny drop of water
I can imagine that even mixing of these chemicals is a dangerous thing on its own, LiAlH4 can self-ignite in air. So, I'll use very small quantities and use a long thin stick for carefully mixing these. These mixes must be very energetic. I have some LiAlH4 (which was donated to me) and up to now I have not done a single experiment with that, simply because it is so insanely reactive. I'll try to make movies of these, but if these reactions are too dangerous and I cannot handle these mixes then I'll skip this. I do not want to run the risk of injury.

[Edited on 2-5-11 by woelen]

Jor - 2-5-2011 at 14:20

Formatik how did you make the 90% hydrazine hydrate ? :o

mewrox99 - 3-5-2011 at 03:02

Woelen your ideas sound brilliant and am really looking forward to the video

Formatik - 3-5-2011 at 16:23

Quote: Originally posted by Jor  
Formatik how did you make the 90% hydrazine hydrate ? :o


Check the hydrazine thread for more details.

Formatik - 3-5-2011 at 22:09

Woelen, I do not have periodic acid or I would have tried it out.

woelen - 5-5-2011 at 10:40

I tried the mix of LiAlH4 and KClO4 (stoichiometric ratio is 1 gram of LiAlH4 to 3.65 gram of KClO4). I made this mix in this stoichiometric amount, total amount was appr. 0.1 gram. Adding a single small drop of water does not ignite the mix, which surprises me. Probably the KClO4 acts as a heat sink, taking away the heat of the reaction between LiAlH4 and water.

The mix can easily be ignited with a flame and then it burns fast, very fast, with a white flame showing many small sparks around the flame. But this is not something for this project, it is cheating, because the mix is ignited by means of a flame.

mewrox99 - 6-5-2011 at 01:07

Quote:
[quote "woelen"]LiAlH4 mixed with crunched crystals of 80% NaClO2/20% NaCl and adding a tiny drop of water


You should try that, I imagine it would be hypergolic and ferociously exothermic

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by mewrox99]

NurdRage - 6-5-2011 at 05:06

@Woelen

Interesting! were you taking pictures or filming at the time? while it can't be used for the project it would be cool just to watch :)

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by NurdRage]

ScienceSquirrel - 6-5-2011 at 08:16

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
I tried the mix of LiAlH4 and KClO4 (stoichiometric ratio is 1 gram of LiAlH4 to 3.65 gram of KClO4). I made this mix in this stoichiometric amount, total amount was appr. 0.1 gram. Adding a single small drop of water does not ignite the mix, which surprises me. Probably the KClO4 acts as a heat sink, taking away the heat of the reaction between LiAlH4 and water.

The mix can easily be ignited with a flame and then it burns fast, very fast, with a white flame showing many small sparks around the flame. But this is not something for this project, it is cheating, because the mix is ignited by means of a flame.


I suspect that potassium perchlorate is the least reactive oxyhalide.
It is a strong oxidising agent but it needs a good kick to get it going.
I cannot think of any oxidations that it will carry out uncatalysed in aqueous solution for instance.
I suspect that sodium hypochorite or chlorite would react more vigorously

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by ScienceSquirrel]

NurdRage - 6-5-2011 at 09:44

ScienceSquirrel,

If you don't leave this thread, I will.

ScienceSquirrel - 6-5-2011 at 09:57

It is a free notice board!

NurdRage - 6-5-2011 at 10:03

I totally and completely agree 100%.

I am free to leave.


@Everyone who is contributing

don't worry, I'm juvenile, but i'm not THAT juvenile to kill the project. Once i have found another suitable means of collaboration (probably google docs or similar) I'll give you all links and we can continue our work there.

Feel free to continue posting here for the benefit of the sciencemadness community.

Bot0nist - 6-5-2011 at 10:57

Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  

I'm juvenile,


So it seems... :P

I found no hostile or offensive posts by SS in this thread. Is this personal beef carried over from your posted link on luminol in the chemistry experiments/fun projects thread?

Personally I like the videos. Both yours, hkparker's, and others. While they are not a replacement for a 'proper write up' or on-hand references and calculations, they are indeed educational and very entertaining. Better than most of the fodder on the tube.

hkparker - 6-5-2011 at 13:22

I really don't want to get too involved in this, as it's probably none of my business. Haven't seen the thread Bot0nist speaks of. I also hope this thread, which has been super productive thus far in my opinion, isn't led off track.

I too don't see any offense in what SS said, a mixture of chlorite or chlorate with LiAlH4 might be a good contribution for our project. Seemed like he was just trying to help to me. If there is some grudge carried over from another thread I think we should all keep things professional and focus on the science. Many of us have very different opinions and I don't want that to effect the quality of our work. It doesn't happen very often here, that's something I've always admired about SM.

Thank you for the kind words Bot0nist, I appreciate it.

NurdRage - 6-5-2011 at 13:43

I never said, nor implied, there was anything wrong with his conduct in this thread. He has been exemplary here and his contributions are appreciated by the community.

He knows why i hate his guts and we'll leave it at that.

He is fully within his right to stay in this thread, as it is my right to leave it.

Everyone is completely free to continue the scientific discussion and i encourage you to do so. I just choose not participate anymore.

This is my final post on the matter and in this thread. Any submissions (or retractions even, i fully understand if someone doesn't want to associate with me after this juvenile rant) can be made U2U. I'll personally contact video contributors when the time comes for me to edit the video together.

Please return to the scientific discussion as it should be.

mr.crow - 6-5-2011 at 14:30

Bye!

Good old forum ego trips. No one really cares

hkparker - 6-5-2011 at 14:36

wow, ok. Consider me still in, my new contributions will be sent via U2U. If you have another way for us to work let me know. Seeing as this is a community project I feel as though its up to everyone to decide where we should work on it, such as here, but whatever. I found the form Bot0nist spoke of. I know my personal opinion is irrelevant, so I will refrain from sharing that. I would imagine that theres is something more to this then that anyway.

Back to the science? I tried chromyl chloride with sulfur powder. The reaction was very hot but too fast in my opinion, and not much flame was observed. I melted it down to larger pieces then a powder and I will try with that. My other idea involves dripping conc. H2SO4 onto a mix of NaCl, K2Cr2O7 and sulfur powder. This will generate Chromyl chloride in situ with the sulfur powder. Thoughts?

ScienceSquirrel - 6-5-2011 at 14:43

I expressed my opinion that I did not like videos on the synthesis thread.
Some people like them, some do not; I am in the latter camp.
My posts were not abusive and they were not deleted by the moderators.
Threads are public and anyone can chip in, if you want to have a private chat go to U2U.

hkparker - 6-5-2011 at 16:53

I read the thread, is that it? As I said earlier I think everyone is entitled to their opinions, we shouldn't let that get in the way of working together on a project. I'm sad that it is here. But I don't want to start a fight and like I also said, its none of my business so I'd rather not get involved... I digress...

A fix of finely powdered sulfur, potassium dichromate and sodium chloride does not come close to lighting on contact with conc. H2SO4. I had some trouble upscaling my synth of CrO2Cl2 as well so I'm just bailing on this one. I will no longer be trying to make a contribution based on this reaction. Anyone else have anything planned?

Formatik - 6-5-2011 at 20:15

I also didn't see any flames when dripping chromyl chloride onto sulfur flowers, back when I made the chloride by distilling it out of a retort. The reaction did sizzle and released gas.

I was trying to extract N-methylpyrrolidone from paint stripper, but during heating the thermometer broke and ruined the extraction, since it left me with a contaminated liquid. The contaminated liquid didn't react with KMnO4, which I didn't pulverize either. I don't think this tells anything about reaction between N-methylpyrrolidone and KMnO4.

Woelen, if you've still got periodic acid, you could react it with DMSO and see if it does anything. It may react violently. Too violent for ignition though (article below).

[Edited on 7-5-2011 by Formatik]

Attachment: ja01009a057.pdf (140kB)
This file has been downloaded 441 times


woelen - 7-5-2011 at 11:37

I tried the LiAlH4 mixes with KClO4, KClO3 and NaClO2. Given the extremely reactive nature of LiAlH4 I expected these mixes to be insanely unstable and very easy to ignite, simply by adding some water. This has proven not to be the case.

All of these mixes can easily be ignited by means of a flame. The mix with KClO4 burns very fast with a white flame (like Mg fire), showing many sparks. The mix with KClO3 burns in a similar way, but the color of the flame is somewhat colored, slightly red/pink. The mix with NaClO2 is by far the most energetic. It burns VERY fast, a single whoosh and a fuzzy deep orange fireball is produced and then it is gone. I would say that this is near-explosion.

I also made some KClO3/LiAlH4 mix and did a test by hitting it with a metal rod. I could not manage to ignite the mix in this way. I increased the force, but dared not go further, being afraid that I would ram my watch glass into pieces. E.g. a mix of KClO3 and red P only needs a gentle tap of a glass rod to get it going. I did the same test with NaClO2/LiAlH4 mix. I even did a test by adding a tiny drop of 30% HCl to this mix. This gives a lot of sizzling and a yellow cloud of ClO2 is formed, but the dry part of the mix does not ignite.

So, apparently LiAlH4 is less sensitive than I expected. Only when this material comes into contact with water in larger quantities, then it can ignite and give rise to fire.

LiAlH4 without any oxidizer mixed in burns with a lovely red flame.

I'll try to make videos of the burning of these mixes and post them here. These video's have to be made in daylight, otherwise the camera's CCD will be totally overexposed. It does not adjust quickly enough to the large light output of the burning of these mixes.

Most impressive though is the burning of the NaClO2/LiAlH4 mix. It is VERY violent and if a somewhat larger amount is taken, I can imagine that a real explosion with corresponding report is obtained, even with unconfined powder. I myself do not feel confident however of handling more than 100 mg amounts of these mixes. I do not want an accident. Even just 1 gram of a mix can give a nasty accident if it sets of unexpectedly.

[Edited on 7-5-11 by woelen]

ItalianChemist - 8-5-2011 at 04:16

i'will soon get perchloric acid 65-70%, i'm going to mix it with some organic compounds and i'll se what happens!

mewrox99 - 8-5-2011 at 04:18

Surprisingly not too much with 70% stuff. Having said that an explosion can still occur with organics so be extremely careful

ItalianChemist - 8-5-2011 at 04:20

i'will soon get perchloric acid 65-70%, i'm going to mix it with some organic compounds and i'll se what happens!

woelen - 8-5-2011 at 05:19

Don't expect anything spectacular with that acid. Some reactions can be exothermic (e.g. reaction with NH3 or an organic amine), but these are merely acid-base reaction. A truly exothermic redox reaction which can show fire and/or explosion requires anhydrous HClO4 or strong heating of the mixture.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have done an experiment with periodic acid and 64% hydrazine. This liqud fumes in contact with air, albeit not strongly. When solid periodic acid is added to some of this liquid then a smooth and slowly accelerating reaction occurs. White smoke is produced. The reaction was much less violent than I expected it to be.

Next, I prepared appr. 30% hydrazine and added some solid periodic acid to this. When this is done with pea-sized pieces of periodic acid, then small explosions occur, and the pieces of periodic acid are launched from the liquid. If smaller particles of periodic acid are used, then no explosions occur, but a plume of iodine and some yellow compound is produced.

The 30% solution reacts more violently than the 64% solution. This might be because of better solubility of periodic acid in such a more dilute solution. A similar effect I have observed before in other reactions, e.g. anhydrous sodium carbonate dissolves more vigorously in 10% HCl than in 35% HCl.

I made some videos of these reactions. The first video is of the reaction with 64% hydrazine:
http://www.homescience.net/chem/exps/hydrazine_periodate/n2h...

The next two videos are with 30% hydrazine. The difference between the videos is the use of background. In the last video you also can nicely see how the piece of periodic acid jumps up after a small explosion.

http://www.homescience.net/chem/exps/hydrazine_periodate/n2h...
http://www.homescience.net/chem/exps/hydrazine_periodate/n2h...

The grey clouds in the last video are no real clouds. These are shadows from the real smoke.

[Edited on 8-5-11 by woelen]

ItalianChemist - 8-5-2011 at 06:52

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Don't expect anything spectacular with that acid. Some reactions can be exothermic (e.g. reaction with NH3 or an organic amine), but these are merely acid-base reaction. A truly exothermic redox reaction which can show fire and/or explosion requires anhydrous HClO4 or strong heating of the mixture.

[Edited on 8-5-11 by woelen]

I've read that at a concentration >70% explodes very easily.
If doesn't make any interesting reaction, I'll make some perchlorates and use them.
I'm going to do also some experiments with sodium chlorite(technical grade)

woelen - 8-5-2011 at 07:07

Perchloric acid is completely ionized up to a concentration of 72%. Above that concentration, there will be covalently bound HClO4 (albeit still hydrated). Only the latter is extremely reactive.

You can make a more reactive acid by mixing the 70% acid with concentrated sulphuric acid. The sulphuric acid will take up most of the water and the HClO4 will be present as non-ionized molecule.

Boiling down the acid does not work. At around 200 C (I don't remember the exact temperature), the azeotrope boils over. This is acid at just over 70%.

Pure HClO4 is unstable and slowly decomposes, giving oxides of chlorine, oxygen and chlorine. Pure HClO4 slowly turns dark on storage and such a dark acid is unstable and may explode without clear reason.

I myself have 60% HClO4 and have done quite a few experiments with that. I have boiled it with many reductors, driving off quite some water and increasing the concentration to nearly 70%, but no reaction occurred. Even fairly strong reductors like sulfite and iodide are not oxidized by boiling with 60+ % HClO4.

It is interesting though to make some perchlorate salts from the acid (e.g. from amines, hydrazine). These salts are stable at room temperature but are quite energetic when strongly heated.

ItalianChemist - 8-5-2011 at 07:54

Yes, I think that I'll make triethylammonium perchlorate from this acid.

symboom - 8-5-2011 at 20:24

i love the compounds that start fire with water
negative X - ammonium chloride ammonium nitrate and zinc and water
sodium peroxide and cotton and water
potassium ferrate and ethylene glycol I've heard of someone doing this one i wish to try

Formatik - 8-5-2011 at 23:31

Intriguing results, woelen.

The fuming nature of hydrazine hydrate is such, that one might not see fumes after opening the container until after it was exposed to atmospheric air for some time. I've also noticed pressure build-up in the little brown glass container I stored it in.

Conc. HClO4 reacts vigorously with almost nothing, except maybe sulfoxides. I've described reaction with DMSO in my hypergolics thread. Vigorous decomposition has been claimed to occur with ketones, glycols, and glycol ethers. But many organics it's mixed with turns into a high explosive of often questionable stability or even high sensitivity.

Another reaction: Turpentine dumped into a mixture of red fuming nitric acid containing 10% KMnO4:

burningturpentine.png - 556kB
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3ED9MGA4

The reaction makes a lot of soot. KMnO4 is needed for the reaction. Ethanol catches fire right away with the same acid having even 2.5% KMnO4, but the flame is hard to see in the daylight and reaction not as impressive.

[Edited on 9-5-2011 by Formatik]

ItalianChemist - 9-5-2011 at 12:55

I can't watch the videos :(

Formatik - 9-5-2011 at 13:59

Try using an American server.

[Edited on 9-5-2011 by Formatik]

mewrox99 - 9-5-2011 at 22:36

I to get the message

<b>The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable. Please try again later</b>

ItalianChemist - 10-5-2011 at 04:53

Quote: Originally posted by mewrox99  
I to get the message

<b>The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable. Please try again later</b>

Me too!

Formatik - 10-5-2011 at 10:50

I got the message once too, but reloaded the page a few times and it works.

woelen - 29-5-2011 at 12:33

I contribute a new movie to the fire project. The self-ignition of red phosphorus when sprinkled on solid periodic acid:




Here is a link to the webpage:
http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/H5IO6_P/inde...

The webpage contains a video. You may download this from the webpage and use that in the Youtube channel on making fire.





hkparker - 29-5-2011 at 12:36

Very cool woelen! Seeing as NurdRage vowed to not return to this thready did you U2U it to him?

On a related note, what is the easiest way to make periodic acid? I can make potassium periodate, could I recrystalize with HCl?

The WiZard is In - 29-5-2011 at 13:22

Quote: Originally posted by Formatik  


Conc. HClO4 reacts vigorously with almost nothing, except maybe sulfoxides.


Almost noting is a little strong, however, withing the limits
of what is being discussed here you dobe correct.

For your edification and amusement.

NB - GF Smith has gotten antsy - unless you are a business or
educational institution - you probable are not going to be
able to get them to supply you with a free copy of the two pubs I mention.


Perchloric Acid and Perchlorates
Alfred A Schilt
([is/was] Free on application from - GF Smith Chemical Co 1979

[Also free (was) G F Smith The Wet Chemical Oxidation
of Organic Compositions Employing Perchloric Acid
with — or — without added HNO3 - H5IO6 – H2SO4 ]


ANHYDROUS PERCHLORIC ACID

Preparation and Properties

The preparation of anhydrous perchloric acid can be readily
achieved by fractional distillation of a mixture of concentrated
sulfuric acid and 65-70% perchloric acid 94,95 Magnesium
perchlorate, 96 phosphorous pentoxide, 97 and Sulfur 97 have also
been described as dehydration agents in place of sulfuric acid.
Anhydrous perchloric acid can also be obtained by extration into
methylene chloride from a mixture of one part by volume of 70%
perchloric acid and four parts 25% fuming sulfuric acid. 88 It
has been recommended that only small amounts of reagents be used
in this procedure and that the extraction flask be kept cold
because of the risk of an explosion.98 Procedures for the
preparation of anhydrous [sic] deuterium Perchlorate and D3OC 104
have been described by Smith and Diehl.99

The anhydrous acid is colorless, hygroscopic, volatile, extremely
reactive, and explosively unstable. In contact with skin it
produces serious and painful wounds. On addition to water it
generates considerable heat and a hissing noise. It freezes at
—112o and boils at 18 mm at 16o without decomposition. It can not
be distilled at ordinary pressures without decomposition and
explodes at about 90o. On standing at ordinary temperatures the
pure acid gradually yellows and eventually (within 10 to 30 days)
explodes spontaneously. Storage time can be extended up to 60
days by use of liquid-air temperatures without formation of
colored decomposition products. Extreme caution is necessary to
avoid contacting the anhydrous acid with wood, paper, or other
combustible matter because explosions invariably result, even at
ordinary temperatures. Except for special use or need anhydrous
perchloric acid should not be made or stored.

Anhydrous perchloric acid undergoes partial autodissociation to
chlorine heptoxide and oxonium perchlorate above its melting
point, and the rate of attainment of equilibrium increases
rapidly above –30o.100 The existence of the equilibrium 3 HCIO4
<-->Cl2O7 + HClO4 . H2O has been demonstrated from viscosity, 101
kinetics of decomposition and vapor pressure, 102 and electrical
measurements. 103 Rosolovskii 112 reports values for the
equilibrium constant (as written above) of 0.80 x 10-4 at –10o,
1.30 x 10-4 at 20o, and 1.94 x 10-4 at 70o. Bout and Potier103
report a value of 0.60 x 10-6 for the self -dissociation
equilibrium constant of the following reaction:

3 HClO4 <—-> ClO2O7 + H3O+ + ClO4-

This value differs from Rosolovskii's because of the difference
in formulating the oxonium perchlorate product. The extent of
self -dissociation is thus indicated in either formulation at
approximately 1 per cent.

Heat capacities and thermodynamic functions for anhydrous
perchloric acid from 5 to 55oK indicate that HClO4 exists as an
independent species in the crystalline state.104 At 298.15 oK its
heat capacity, Cp, is 28.80 cal/mol degree. A triple point occurs
at 172.0 oK.

Raman and infrared spectra of anhydrous HClO4 and DClO4 have been
extensively studied for all three physical states.105-7 There is
no evidence of any molecular association in the liquid state.
Bond energies, bond lengths, and standard thermodynamic
quantities have been estimated from the data.105

The thermal decomposition of anhydrous perchloric acid has been
studied extensively.108-116 Proceeding through the formation Of
Cl207, the following decomposition products are formed at 60-80o;
O2, HClO4.H20, ClO2, and Cl2.110 At 200-439o the products are
Cl2, H2O, and O2.110 In addition to Cl2 O7 other probable
intermediates include ClO3 and ClO4. At 10 mm and 300-400o, the
decomposition is first order with respect to HClO4. Catalysts, in
order of their activity, are Co2O3 > MnO2 > CuO > Fe2O3 > CuCr2O4
> Al2O3 > SiO2. 116

Reactions

An extremely powerful oxidant, anhydrous perchloric acid causes
explosions upon contact with most organic substances. It can,
however, be dissolved in chloroform, methylene chloride, acetic
acid, and certain other organic solvents for somewhat safer
employment in chemical reactions and syntheses. On dissolving it
in acetonitrile, it interacts with the solvent by H-bonding
initially and then very slowly transfers its proton to the
acetonitrile.117 Applications of the anhydrous acid in various
organic solvents have been reviewed by Burton and Praill.118

Neither hydrogen chloride nor hydrogen bromide react with
anhydrous perchloric acid but hydrogen iodide as well as sodium
iodide ignite on contact with it. Thionyl chloride also ignites
on contact but not sulfuryl chloride. Phosphorous oxychloride
dissolves it without reaction, while phosphorous pentachloride
reacts to give chlorine heptoxide. A solution of the acid in
chloroform explodes violently if poured upon phosphorous
pentoxide. Reaction with iodine yields deliquescent needles of
HIO3 [I2 3 [sic] Which when warmed give off iodine and leave
iodic acid as a residue.

Graphite reacts slowly with the anhydrous acid at room
temperature to give C24.9 ClO4 and ClO3.119 However, a drop added
to wood charcoal produces a violent explosion. Paper and wood are
ignited by the acid. The gas-phase reaction of perchloric acid
with hydrogen is first order in either reactant and yields
hydrogen chloride.120 Methane or ammonia is without effect on the
gas-phase reaction with hydrogen. 121 In the gas-phase reaction
of perchloric acid with ethylene the major products are HCI, CO,
and H2O; some 1,2-dichloroethane and vinyl chloride is also
produced together with minor amounts of numerous other organic
compounds, including C3 and C4 halides.122

PERCHLORIC ANHYDRIDE

Chlorine heptoxide, the anhydride of perchloric acid,. was first
isolated by Michael and Conn" by adding anhydrous perchloric acid
very slowly to phosphorous pentoxide cooled to –10o, and after
one day at –10o, distilling the product from the mixture at 82o.
They carefully reported that "the apparatus may be virtually
pulverized by violent explosion, and personal precautions must be
taken accordingly." More recently, Kolarov et al.123 described a
method which involves heating a mixture of anhydrous magnesium
Perchlorate with phosphorous pentoxide in a ratio of 1 to 1-2 at
100-160o and 1-2 mm for 2-5 hours to obtain a pale
yellow-to-orange product as distillate collected in a receiver
cooled to –78o. The distillate is free of phosphoric acid but
contains lower oxides of chlorine. Use of hydrated magnesium
Perchlorate led to an explosion. Replacement of magnesium
Perchlorate with potassium or ammonium Perchlorate gave no
product.

Chlorine heptoxide. Cl2O7, is a colorless volatile oil which
decomposes spontaneously on standing for a few days, turning
greenish-yellow. According to Babaeva,121 only 33.5% decomposed
in 502 min. at 80o. In the presence of 1% HClO4 the rate of
oxygen evolution is increased and the final product is oxonium
perchlorate.

Perchloric anhydride is soluble in and slowly attacks benzene,
reacts slowly with water to form perchloric acid, reacts with
iodine to form iodine pentoxide, and explodes on contact with
flame or by percussion. It volatilizes rapidly, so that a small
amount dropped onto paper or wood may evaporate before it can
react violently. Reaction with olefins yields impact- sensitive
alykl perchlorates.125 It is soluble in phosphorous oxychloride,
producing normal freezing point lowering indicative of the
molecular state
Cl2 O7.126


88. F. Klages and P. Hegenberg, Angew, Chem., 74, 902 (1962).
120. P. W. M. Jacobs and J. Stevenson, Combust. Flume, 19, 343
(1972).
94. G. F. Smith, J. Amer. Chem. Soc 75, 184 (1953).
95. G. Mascherpa, Compt. Rend., 252, 1800 .1961).
96. G. F. Smith. Talanta, 7, 212 (1961).
97. A. A. Zinov'ev, Zhur. Neorg. Kliho., 3,1205 (1958).
98. H. Musso and B. Bock, Angew, Chem., Int. Ed. Engl., 9, 75
(1970).
99. G. F. Smith and H. Diehl, Anal. Cheim, Proc. Intern, Symp..
Birininghom Univ., Birmingham, Engl. 1962, 394.
100. A. 1. Karelia, Z. I. Gregorovich, and V. Ya. Rosolovskii,
Izv. Akad. Nauk. SSSR, Ser. Khim. (3), 665 (1975),
101. A. A. Zinov'ev and V. Y. Rosolovskii, Zhur. Neoig. Khim., 5,
2564
(1960).
102. V. Y. Rusolovskii, Zhur. Neorg. Khirn., 11, 2161 (1966).
103. N. Bout and J. Potier, Rev. Chim. Miner., 4,621 (1967).
104. J. C. Trowbridge and E. F. Westrum, Jr., J. Phys. Chem., 68,
42 (1964).
105. P. A. Giguere and R Savoie, Con. J. Chem., 40,495 (1961).
106. A. 1. Karelia, Z. 1. Grigorovich, and V. Ya. Rosolovskii,
Spectrachim. Acto, Part A, 31A, 765 (1975).
107. A. 1. Karelia and Z. 1. Grigorovich. Spectrochim. Acta, Part
A, 32A. 851 (1976).
108. A. A. Zinov'ev and A. B. Tsentsiper, Zhur. Neorg. Khim., 4.
724 (1959).
109. A. A. Zinov'ev and V. P. Babaeva, Zhur. Neorg. Khim., 6, 271
(1961).
110. J. B. Levy, 1. Phys. Chem., 06. 1092 (1962).
111. V. P. Babaeva and A. A. Zinov'ev, Dokl. Akad. Nauk. SSSR,
149, 592 (1963).
112. V. P. Babaeva and A. A. Zinov'ev, Zhur. Neorg. Khim., 8, 567
(1963).
113. H. F. Cordes and S. R. Smith, 1. Chem. Eng. Data, 15,156
(1970).
114. R. Gilbert and P. W.-M. Jacobs, Combust. Flame, 17,343
(1971).
115. F. Solymosi, L. Gera, and S. Borcsok, Magy. Kem. Foly., 78,
66 (1972).
116. 0. P. Korobeinichev, G. 1. Anisiforov, A. V. Shkarin, and M.
M. Polyakov, Fiz. Goreniya Vzrva, 9, 199 (1973).
117. M. Kinugasa, K. Kishi, and S. Ikeda, 1. Phys. Chem., 77,
1914 (1973).
118. H. Burton and P. F. G. Praill, Analyst, 80, 4 (1955).
119. H. Fuzellier and A. Herold, C. R. Acad. Sci., Ser. C, 276,
i287 (1973).
120. P. W. M. Jacobs and J. Stevenson, Combust. Flame, 19, 343
(1972).
121. 0. P. Korobeinichev, G. 1. Anisiforov, and M. M. Polyakov,
Izv. Akad. Nauk. SSSR, Ser. Khim (3), 499 (1973).
122. P. W. M. Jacobs and 1. Stevenson, Combust. Flame, 20,51
(1973).
123. N. Kolarov, R. Proinova, 1. Cholakova, and M. Kalarova, God.
Vissh. Khimikotekhnol. inst., Sofia, 19, 245 (1974).
124. V. P. Babaeva, Zhur. Neorg. Khim., 8, 1809 (1963).
125. K. Baum, 1. Org. Chem., 41,1663 (1976).
126. P. Walden, Z. anorg. Chem., 68,307 (1910).

From the shadow's — Perchloric acid hazards

The WiZard is In - 29-5-2011 at 13:28

K. Everett and F.A. Graf Jr.
Handling Perchloric Acid and Perchlorates.
In: N.V. Steere, ed. Handbook of Laboratory Safety. Second Edition - 1971.

A violent explosion took place in an exhaust duct from a laboratory hood in which
perchloric acid solution was being fumed over a gas plate. It blew out windows,
bulged the exterior walls, lifted the roof, and extensively damaged equipment and
supplies. Some time prior to the explosion, the hood had been used for the
analysis of miscellaneous materials. The explosion apparently originated in
deposits of perchloric acid and organic material in the hood and duct.

An employee dropped a 7-lb bottle of perchloric acid solution on a concrete floor.
The liquid was taken up with sawdust and placed in a covered, metal waste can.
Four hours later, a light explosion blew open the hinged cover of the can.

A stone table of a fume hood was patched with a glycerin cement and several
years latter, when the hood was being removed, the table exploded when a
workman struck the stone with a chisel.

During routine maintenance involving partial dismantling of the exhaust blower on
a perchloric acid ventilating system, a detonation followed a light blow with a
hammer on a chisel held against the fan at or near the seal between the rear
cover plate and the fan casing. The intensity of the explosion was such that is
was heard four miles away and of the three employees in the vicinity, one
sustained face laceration and slight eye injury; the second suffered loss of four
fingers on one hand and possible loss of sight in one eye; the third was fatally
injured with the 6 in. chisel entering below his left nostril and embedded in the
brain.



Things your mother never told you about the H2SO4 - KClO3 reaction

The WiZard is In - 29-5-2011 at 13:29

Action of potassium chlorate on concentrated sulphuric acid. (Preliminary note.)
S. Smith. Chem. Soc. Proc., 1910, 26, 124-125.
In: — The Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry. 29 [12] 754.

The author has observed that at 338o C. the action of potassium chlorate on
concentrated sulphuric acid is entirely unattended by explosive violence, the
addition of the powered salt to the boiling acid merely resulting in a brisk
effervescence, with the production of chlorine , oxygen, and perchloric acid. The
volume of oxygen evolved corresponds with about 90 per cent. of the total
oxygen contained in the potassium chlorate, whilst the amount of perchloric acid
formed appears to be very small. This reaction was studied at various
temperatures, and it was found that from 338o to 200o C. no crackling or
detonation is produced. At 170o C., however, the addition potassium chlorate to
sulphuric acid results in a number of small detonations, which increase in
violence as the sulphuric acid is cooled and reach a maximum between 130o and
120o C., when a sharp explosion results. Below 120o C., the violence of the
action diminishes, until at 60o C., chlorine peroxide is quietly evolved without
crackling or detonation.

ItalianChemist - 30-5-2011 at 07:46

The extraction with DCM sound very interesting...could you please send me the solubility of HClO4 in DCM?

Formatik - 30-5-2011 at 21:54

Quote: Originally posted by ItalianChemist  
The extraction with DCM sound very interesting...could you please send me the solubility of HClO4 in DCM?


Anhydrous HClO4 forms solutions with dichloromethane. Since the acid is so hygroscopic, it's noted that the when the DCM solution is exposed to atmospheric air moisture, the solution fumes forming white hydroxonium perchlorate (H3O+ClO4-), which is insoluble in DCM, mentioned in doi: 10.1021/ja00735a047.

But there's no reason to believe dichloromethane will be unreactive to perchloric acid. The mixture is already detonable. And if the DCM is methanol-contaminated, there is a pretty good chance of explosion. The topic of solvent extraction of HClO4 was also brought up in this and this thread.

And actually, an attempt to form anhydrous HClO4 solutions of dichloromethane (which was pure) using oleum and conc. HClO4 has already ended in a disasterous explosion on at least one occasion (see attached article).

Attachment: DCMandHClO4.pdf (119kB)
This file has been downloaded 528 times

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
Action of potassium chlorate on concentrated sulphuric acid. (Preliminary note.)
S. Smith. Chem. Soc. Proc., 1910, 26, 124-125.
In: — The Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry. 29 [12] 754.

...
action diminishes, until at 60o C., chlorine peroxide is quietly evolved without
crackling or detonation.


Serullas has described explosions just by mixing KClO3 and H2SO4. In the small milligram scale all I've seen was just the gas evolution.

[Edited on 31-5-2011 by Formatik]

ItalianChemist - 1-6-2011 at 05:11

Thank you! :D

PHILOU Zrealone - 6-6-2011 at 04:10

Red P and H2O2 50% burst into flame after a few seconds.

Glycerol and KMnO4 induction period dependant of the external heat, heat of the reactants and of the KMnO4 granulometry...
So much slower:
-in winter at 0°C than in summer at 30°C.
-in coarse cristals than with fine powderous.
-with frozen glycerol than with ambiant temp glycerol.

Terpentine oil and concentrated HNO3 should burst into flame on contact of each other.

Formatik - 6-6-2011 at 13:28

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Terpentine oil and concentrated HNO3 should burst into flame on contact of each other.


I don't think they would because not even red fuming nitric acid ignites turpentine, it just sizzles and ejects the mixture giving off red gases. Though there are some references that claim ignition with the latter, it doesn't happen in milligram amounts. You have to add KMnO4 to the fuming acid. FeCl3 might work instead. Some other catalysts too.

#maverick# - 11-6-2011 at 18:34

elemental sodium and elemental iodine forming NaI and im sure it ignites ill try it if i have any sodium left

Sedit - 11-6-2011 at 20:31

I recently made fire using Marquis reagent and Matches, does anyone know why exactly I made fire?

Formatik - 14-6-2011 at 07:33

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
I recently made fire using Marquis reagent and Matches, does anyone know why exactly I made fire?


Marquis is mostly conc. H2SO4, so this formed ClO2 with the chlorate-containing match head. I would think that was most probably the cause of ignition. The dioxide hypergoles with combustible materials (in this case, likely the combustibles in the match or the cellulose).

Morgan - 15-6-2011 at 07:05

Another odd way to start a fire would be to use an electric eel. I've read a few scant articles where it is just possible to produce a feeble spark with an electric eel.
It would be nice to see a demonstration of such, say lighting a flammable gas.

"Indeed, a spark from the electric eel may be made visible and conducted in a circle as from an ordinary electrical machine. The creature has a perfect galvanic apparatus extending from one end of its body to the other, supplied by two hundred and twenty-four pairs of nerves, which have no other office but to energize this apparatus, thus affording the most positive proof that the nervous power is essential to its galvanic action."
http://psycnet.apa.org/books/12046/007

Drawing a spark from darkness: John Walsh and electric fish
http://web.unife.it/utenti/marco.piccolino/Epistem2007/Engl/...

LanthanumK - 23-6-2011 at 15:30

Every time I open a NiMH battery, even a depleted one, it bursts into flames after sitting out of its case a while. These have lots of energy in them.

woelen - 27-6-2011 at 11:39

Another nice experiment, which leads to fire on first contact:

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/raw_material...

It is a known one (nitromethane + sodium hydroxide). I made it somewhat more extreme by using Na2O instead of NaOH and using powder instead of prills. With these, there is direct ignition on contact.

ItalianChemist - 27-6-2011 at 12:07

Very nice! I'll try this reaction!

hkparker - 18-8-2011 at 23:15

Hello everyone. I bump this old thready because I do not want to see this project die, and I have spoken with NurdRage about the future of this.

I sent him a U2U with updated versions of my contributions (filmed better, larger amounts) and did not hear back, so I messaged him on youtube.

I don't see why I cant post the actual messages here but I will refrain unless requested to. He did not ask for the download links to my updated videos and said "i'm not sure if/when i'll be back.". I really don't want to see this project die and ask him when he would know if he would be able to continue the project. I told him if he was too busy to continue then I would volunteer to take over or help anyone else with more skill than me get started editing. I understand my media production skills are mediocre so anyone else who would want to edit it will not hear any objection from me. I received this in reply:

Quote:

I'm not certain what i'm going to do, life gets in the way too much. If you'd like to pick it up, by all means ask the forum thread if they would like to let you do the editing. I didn't seize the copyright, they have full legal right to let you edit their work.

I'm not saying i'll drop it. i just don't know if i can continue with it.


That was received a month and 5 days ago, so I thought it time to post on this thread. What are everyone's thoughts? Wait for NurdRage, edit it ourselves? Something else?

White Yeti - 19-8-2011 at 11:10

I'm not part of the collaboration, but I'm sure there are other projects that are much more worthwhile than making fire.
Don't get me wrong, this is still a nice project to try out, but there are certainly other videos you guys can work on, like making PbO2 anodes, making alternate chemiluminescent compounds like DPO. There are dozens of videos NurdRage said he was working on but never got to finishing, even after more than a year. As a video maker, I know how much time is needed to make a single video and I understand that he will need a ton of time to finish them all. Perhaps hkparker and the rest could help him out with those videos instead if trying to make entirely new videos.

Just a thought.

cyanureeves - 20-8-2011 at 05:17

i think the anode is also good because alot has been written and said about them but a video would be great. as for going ahead with a video, why not? if anyone can do it better or faster then fine. i already enjoyed watching everybody's videos that was posted here anyway.

watson.fawkes - 20-8-2011 at 07:26

Quote: Originally posted by hkparker  
I sent him a U2U with updated versions of my contributions (filmed better, larger amounts) and did not hear back, so I messaged him on youtube.

I don't see why I cant post the actual messages here but I will refrain unless requested to. He did not ask for the download links to my updated videos and said "i'm not sure if/when i'll be back.". I really don't want to see this project die and ask him when he would know if he would be able to continue the project.
There is good reason not to wait on someone who has explicitly absented himself from this forum, who is declining to re-engage, and who is expressing no concrete interest in participating. Drop him. Get on with your project without him.

If he comes back, perhaps because he feels he's missing out, do not give him control back. He's already abdicated (fool me once). You all would be rash to allow him to take over after that (fool me twice).

hkparker - 20-8-2011 at 10:06

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
There is good reason not to wait on someone who has explicitly absented himself from this forum, who is declining to re-engage, and who is expressing no concrete interest in participating. Drop him. Get on with your project without him.


Fair enough.

While I agree this decision doesn't belong to me alone. I will be happy to pick up this project, but here's what I need:

Who, who has submitted before to this project, or who has not yet, would like to participate? Can you submit your videos to me? I could look up through the thread but I know many submissions were done over U2U so it would be easiest to start over with me in U2U.

Would anyone else like to take over this project? Anyone who has some experience editing videos, at least more then me?

MrHomeScientist - 22-8-2011 at 10:30

It's great that you want to pick this project up again. I had actually forgotten about it, it's been so long. Shame that NurdRage disappeared so suddenly and mysteriously.

I'd be fine sending my clips to you. We used some kind of file uploading site before, and that seemed to work out pretty well.

I like the anode collaboration idea, but we've already got a bunch of clips on this fire project so it would be a shame to let them go to waste. Ideas for future collabs are good though!

hkparker - 22-8-2011 at 14:21

Thanks MrHomeScientist! If we get enough of the people who were a part of this project to submit again hopefully we can make this happen.

I will be providing ftp space for submissions.

FTP: hkparker.dyndns.org
Username: admin
password: sciencemadness

Just put everything in USB_Storage.

4GB at a time though! As soon as something is placed in there I will remove it and delete it to make room. Just let me know when you plan on making a submission.

EDIT: DynDNS host name now online.

[Edited on 22-8-2011 by hkparker]

[Edited on 23-8-2011 by hkparker]

#maverick# - 22-8-2011 at 15:37

Hk I'd like to help out with the project. I have some video editing experience, but would be willing to help if u need help with anything

hkparker - 22-8-2011 at 16:32

Thanks maverick! I can do some minor editing things (see my youtube channel) like stitching videos together, increasing playback speed, etc, but I'll send any more complex work on to you!

mr.crow - 22-8-2011 at 16:38

Please put a password on your FTP for uploads. It might get scanned by an automated tool and replaced by viruses, warez and porn. Why did you put a USB key on sharing?

hkparker - 22-8-2011 at 16:41

I am a tad bit worried about it getting scanned but my routers only other option is its admin password. I suppose if I don't set it up for remote admin and 80 is closed then it should matter. I will update it with a password soon.

I set up the ftp for convenience. I might make an actual server instead of my router for more security and the ability to make user accounts though.

Password added:

login: admin
password: sciencemadness

[Edited on 23-8-2011 by hkparker]

mr.crow - 23-8-2011 at 06:24

Ah so your router has the FTP server on it? Usually its on your PC and your router forwards the ports to it. May have to use passive mode to connect to it. FTP is really dumb

hkparker - 23-8-2011 at 17:54

It does, yes. I just put new RAM in this 15 year old laptop (oh yea) and installed openSUSE on it in the hopes it would make a better ftp server. It was unstable as hell but I got it working. The hard drive is only 40GB so I dont thing its worth it to be running it instead of on my router though. Its noisy and buggy, so I'll stick to my router for now.

I want to set up remote administration on my router because I'm leaving for college tomorrow but seeing as there is only one user account someone here could nmap it and find the port I opened for remote admin, login, and change things.

You guys arn't that mean right? :D

White Yeti - 24-8-2011 at 11:46

I have some video editing experience and a YT channel as well, (although I'm not very proud of it).

If you guys need an extra hand, let me know, and I'd be happy to help out. I'm not a very good narrator, so I'd rather stick to video editing.

hkparker - 25-8-2011 at 21:06

Thank you.

Who's planning on resubmitting to this project?

#maverick# - 27-8-2011 at 08:26

hk heres my contribution http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjtF-lRkgME, ill upload it to the ftp also

hkparker - 27-8-2011 at 08:28

Thanks maverick.

ftp might be having issues, sorry...

give it a try, if it doesn't work I'll fix it. youtube is a good option for giving me videos as well.

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