Sciencemadness Discussion Board

What’s your opinion?

Petn1933 - 8-11-2019 at 09:36


Whate you think about this:
Petn 67%
Etn 28%
Nc 2.5%
Al powder 2.5%

We Mix all with acetone and then mold it.

I want to know your opinion friends:)


Tnx

LardmanAttack - 9-11-2019 at 15:13

Try it. :P

underground - 10-11-2019 at 02:53

2.5% Nc wont do much. Also AL is not needed.

Herr Haber - 12-11-2019 at 04:33

Silly idea.
If you add acetone to that mix you will have a mixed solution of nitric esters.
Then you wont be able to "mold" anything at all. You could then evaporate the acetone but... you're just overcomplicating things.

I suggest you get Urbanski's tome III

Praxichys - 12-11-2019 at 08:16

What do you want to do with it?

Are you trying to homogenize and densify it? Do you need it moldable in-situ or do you simply need a fixed shape? Are you looking to maximize brisance or total output energy, or have a thermobaric effect?

wessonsmith - 12-11-2019 at 10:00

He wanted advice on a thermobaric composition. His only binder was NC. My advice was to ditch the ETN and go with:
PETN 45
NC 15
AI powder 40
Mix all with acetone and then mold it. I would also add some magnesium if available. A good thermobaric comp needs excess fuel, NC isn't fuel-rich enough, so not an ideal binder.

underground - 12-11-2019 at 10:48

Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC

wessonsmith - 12-11-2019 at 16:51

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC

I agree with the 15% pib/motor oil, not sure he has access to it, though.

Petn1933 - 13-11-2019 at 00:23

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
What do you want to do with it?

Are you trying to homogenize and densify it? Do you need it moldable in-situ or do you simply need a fixed shape? Are you looking to maximize brisance or total output energy, or have a thermobaric effect?


Thank you for your reply
You are right, because I have not specified what I want to use this compound for. I am looking for maximum energy and explosive speed. By adding aluminum to this explosive compound, I want to see the explosion rate would increase or not?

Petn1933 - 13-11-2019 at 00:26

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
He wanted advice on a thermobaric composition. His only binder was NC. My advice was to ditch the ETN and go with:
PETN 45
NC 15
AI powder 40
Mix all with acetone and then mold it. I would also add some magnesium if available. A good thermobaric comp needs excess fuel, NC isn't fuel-rich enough, so not an ideal binder.



Thank you dear wessonsmith
I’ll try it;)

Petn1933 - 13-11-2019 at 00:36

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC


Dear underground, 2 years ago I tried plastic explosive.70/30 petn:etn and it has been powerful.

Herr Haber - 13-11-2019 at 04:54

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
He wanted advice on a thermobaric composition. His only binder was NC. My advice was to ditch the ETN and go with:
PETN 45
NC 15
AI powder 40
Mix all with acetone and then mold it. I would also add some magnesium if available. A good thermobaric comp needs excess fuel, NC isn't fuel-rich enough, so not an ideal binder.



So now you have a solution of PETN and NC in acetone with Al segregating at the bottom.
How do you mold that ?

Even if you add just enough acetone to gel the NC then incorporate the PETN some of it will dissolve and not recristalize in an optimal way after the solvent evaporates. Not an elegant solution.

underground - 13-11-2019 at 05:22

Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC


Dear underground, 2 years ago I tried plastic explosive.70/30 petn:etn and it has been powerful.


I mean, it wont do much 15% NC as a binder, i am not talking about performance. You have to use a better binder like i said pib/motor oil for a good plastic.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]

Petn1933 - 13-11-2019 at 06:23

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC


Dear underground, 2 years ago I tried plastic explosive.70/30 petn:etn and it has been powerful.


I mean, it wont do much 15% NC as a binder, i am not talking about performance. You have to use a better binder like i said pib/motor oil for a good plastic.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]


Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the solvent evaporates.

Very Powerful Thermobaric comp

wessonsmith - 13-11-2019 at 06:54

FYI this is my Thermobaric composition.

ETN 55.00 (g)
Al(3μm/) 12.00
Mg/Al(44μm/325mesh) 18.00 (50/50 mix)

Soy Lecithin(liquid) 0.300
lmwHTPB Resin 11.69 (lmw=Low Molecular Weight)
Isodecyl Pelargonate Plasticizer 0.73
Modified MDI Isocyanate Curative 1.84
CAO-5 Antioxidant 0.44

Very modelable and storable composition. I am aware that people outside the USA don't have access to HTPB.

FYI this is an adaptation from a military-grade Thermobaric comp. I am substituting out HMX for ETN. So logistically, the military wouldn't use it due to the low melting temp, but from a practical/individual level, it is excellent.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by wessonsmith]

underground - 13-11-2019 at 07:10

Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the solvent evaporates.


Then add 5-10% vaseline.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]

wessonsmith - 13-11-2019 at 08:33

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the solvent evaporates.


Then add 5-10% vaseline.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]


Adding the vasiline would help a lot with the fuel needed for a good Thermobaric effect. Good call.

Herr Haber - 13-11-2019 at 09:14

Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  

Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the solvent evaporates.


Did I say Tome III ?

Solvent / solventless double and triple base powders processes should be of interest to you if you insist on using a solvent.

MineMan - 13-11-2019 at 11:39

NC is the best binder for thermobaric.... combined effects is achieved if the binder is active. But not if it’s inactive. NC is active.

Petn1933 - 13-11-2019 at 21:40

Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  

Whate you think about this:
Petn 67%
Etn 28%
Nc 2.5%
Al powder 2.5%

We Mix all with acetone and then mold it.

I want to know your opinion friends:)


Tnx



3E8FCE2F-F293-4637-8D72-FD474214FC44.jpeg - 434kBDD19550B-8101-4C81-92C6-FF18CCCB723A.jpeg - 499kB

Petn1933 - 13-11-2019 at 21:45

about 1/4 pound.
Now I have to see when I can blow it up:/

wessonsmith - 14-11-2019 at 07:39

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
NC is the best binder for thermobaric.... combined effects is achieved if the binder is active. But not if it’s inactive. NC is active.


That is not the case for a Thermobaric composition; it is the case for plastic explosives. A successful thermobaric composition requires an excess of fuel for it to work correctly. The ratio of fuel/oxidizer/energetic needs to be such that the excess fuel is properly ignited so that it can then recruit the available oxygen in the area. It's this reignition of the excess fuel that causes the vacuum, and sustained blast overpressure.

NC doesn't contain enough fuel to be an effective Thermobaric binder. HTPB has 10x the fuel density of NC. Where thermobaric's shine are enclosed spaces, that excess of fuel recruits the available oxygen(oxidizer) within the room, causing a partial vacuum, which is then replaced by a sustained overpressure wave produced by the continued ignition of the excess fuel by the recruited oxygen.

Something interesting I discovered in my quest for an effective thermobaric composition was the effect that the container has on the thermobaric outcome. A 3mm thick aluminum shell can dissipate the thermobaric effect by as much as 60% as compared to a thermobaric composition without a shell. That is why I use a plastic container instead of a metal one for my thermobaric composition.

For futher reading I suggest these two research papers.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ALAn-co9H3OugWTx45Yj...

MineMan - 14-11-2019 at 12:45

Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
NC is the best binder for thermobaric.... combined effects is achieved if the binder is active. But not if it’s inactive. NC is active.


That is not the case for a Thermobaric composition; it is the case for plastic explosives. A successful thermobaric composition requires an excess of fuel for it to work correctly. The ratio of fuel/oxidizer/energetic needs to be such that the excess fuel is properly ignited so that it can then recruit the available oxygen in the area. It's this reignition of the excess fuel that causes the vacuum, and sustained blast overpressure.

NC doesn't contain enough fuel to be an effective Thermobaric binder. HTPB has 10x the fuel density of NC. Where thermobaric's shine are enclosed spaces, that excess of fuel recruits the available oxygen(oxidizer) within the room, causing a partial vacuum, which is then replaced by a sustained overpressure wave produced by the continued ignition of the excess fuel by the recruited oxygen.

Something interesting I discovered in my quest for an effective thermobaric composition was the effect that the container has on the thermobaric outcome. A 3mm thick aluminum shell can dissipate the thermobaric effect by as much as 60% as compared to a thermobaric composition without a shell. That is why I use a plastic container instead of a metal one for my thermobaric composition.

For futher reading I suggest these two research papers.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ALAn-co9H3OugWTx45Yj...


I appreciate your very detailed explanation. But combined effect explosives have both a thermobaric effect and a high gurney velocity. Only possible with an active binder.... In fact... the gurney energy can be higher then without the metal powder... that’s impressive!

Microtek - 15-11-2019 at 00:34
Quote:

I am looking for maximum energy and explosive speed. By adding aluminum to this explosive compound, I want to see the explosion rate would increase or not


From this, it seems that he is looking for something that isn't necessarily thermobaric or plastic. It also seems that he is looking for high explosion energy and high "explosion rate" (which I would interpret as VOD). Unless moldability is desired, I don't think it would be a good idea to use PIB/oil as the binder/plasticizer matrix. NC is quite a decent binder, but gets quite brittle unless plasticized. Personally I would add a little NG for this purpose (about 0,3-0,5g per gram of NC), but it is possible that ETN or PETN may have an equivalent effect.
With regards to solvent, acetone is fine but you shouldn't just mix and evaporate in some mold; it will get inhomogenous as Haber says. Instead, mix thoroughly while evaporating most of the solvent. Then granulate and evaporate practically all the rest. Then press the charge with a dwell time of at least 5 minutes.

Herr Haber - 15-11-2019 at 04:34

Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  

NC is quite a decent binder, but gets quite brittle unless plasticized. Personally I would add a little NG for this purpose (about 0,3-0,5g per gram of NC), but it is possible that ETN or PETN may have an equivalent effect.


I thought of mentioning NG or DNT but feared for op's safety. Though now that I think of it the solventless processes I pointed to would be ideal:
NC in water, a lot of agitation while incorporating NG then separate the gel from water to add PETN or toss the PETN straight in the water. Beyond a few percents it will be brittle though.

I have no doubt Wessonsmith could transform a pasta making machine to extrude tubes or whatever !

PETN doesnt work as a plasticizer unfortunately (Urbanski again).

wessonsmith - 15-11-2019 at 04:50

Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  

Quote:

I am looking for maximum energy and explosive speed. By adding aluminum to this explosive compound, I want to see the explosion rate would increase or not


From this, it seems that he is looking for something that isn't necessarily thermobaric or plastic. It also seems that he is looking for high explosion energy and high "explosion rate" (which I would interpret as VOD).


If that is the case, then ETN/PETN is all you need. Adding anything extra will sacrifice the VOD or maximum detonation pressure.

Thermobaric compositions sacrifice VOD and maximum detonation pressure for a vacuum and SUSTAINED detonation pressure.

wessonsmith - 15-11-2019 at 05:03

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  

I appreciate your very detailed explanation. But combined effect explosives have both a thermobaric effect and a high gurney velocity. Only possible with an active binder.... In fact... the gurney energy can be higher then without the metal powder... that’s impressive!


I agree. PETN1933 had reached out to me in a PM to discuss thermobaric compositions, that's why I was talking about them. To be clear, using an active binder is desirable if the goal is to maximize the VOD/detonation pressure. If the goal is to maximize the thermobaric effect, vacuum/sustained blast wave, then excess fuel is a must. Using an active binder in a thermobaric composition would negate the maximum thermobaric effect by reducing the fuel density of the composition.

Rocinante - 15-11-2019 at 08:25

If you are looking for maximum detonation pressure and velocity, just melt cast ETN. Mixing it with anything is a receipe for bubbles, once the molten mass cools, significantly reducing pressure/velocity. Also, those mixes would require pressing in molten state, which is a no-no. Melt cast only 10 g at time.

If you are looking for a combined effects explosive, i.e. a melt cast with 15 % of Al that burn almost all the Al in just 7 expansions, use 15 % Al and some 30 % PETN + 55 % ETN, don't press and make sure that your explosives are pure (double recrystalization). Don't press it in molten state, don't agitate it. Sure, you'll reach lower VoD but being safe is more important. 1.5 density is OK, the pressure at that density is still high enough to crack those Al particles to burn rapidly at the sub-milisecond scale.

If you are looking at a thermobaric, just melt cast your ETN and surround it with a thin film of 30 % of Al, i.e. 60 g ETN and 30 g Al (smaller TBX charges don't rly work well due to rapid cooling of the cloud). Sure, some lower performance than a direct melt cast but much safer.

Melt cast the stuff in sillicone rubber, use a big bucket of hot water and be in different room after you pour in the water, just to be safe. Also, you should melt cast the combined effecrs explosive in 5 - 10 g batches - just to stop it from serious DDT if anything goes bad.

If you are looking for a cheap FAE bang, make a foil housing 80×80 cm wide and 50 cm high, use a plate and pour in 45 ml of Et2O, let it evaporate and detonate it via en electrical 3 g+ ETN blasting cap placed at the outside of the foil (total ETN mass, like 1 g in blasting cap and 2 g of ETN in booster).


[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]

MineMan - 15-11-2019 at 08:35

Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante  
If you are looking for maximum detonation pressure and velocity, just melt cast ETN. Mixing it with anything is a receipe for bubbles, once the molten mass cools, significantly reducing pressure/velocity. Also, those mixes would require pressing in molten state, which is a no-no. Melt cast only 10 g at time.

If you are looking for a combined effects explosive, i.e. a melt cast with 15 % of Al that burn almost all the Al in just 7 expansions, use 15 % Al and some 30 % PETN + 55 % ETN, don't press and make sure that your explosives are pure (double recrystalization). Don't press it in molten state, don't agitate it. Sure, you'll reach lower VoD but being safe is more important. 1.5 density is OK, the pressure at that density is still high enough to crack those Al particles to burn rapidly at the sub-milisecond scale.

If you are looking at a thermobaric, just melt cast your ETN and surround it with a thin flame of 30 % of Al, i.e. 60 g ETN and 30 g Al (smaller TBX charges don't rly work well due to rapid cooling of the cloud). Sure, some lower performance than a direct melt cast but much safer.

Melt cast the stuff in sillicone rubber, use a big bucket of hot water and be in different room after you pour in the water, just to be safe. Also, you should melt cast the combined effecrs explosive in 5 - 10 g batches - just to stop it from serious DDT if anything goes bad.

[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]


Someone did their reading:D

He is correct, the aluminum can react by 7 expansions. :o

You sacrifice some VOD for higher gurney velocity.

I do have a question, is it safe to melt cast ETN with Al powder? Especially with how sensitive ETN is when molten?! That would make me very nervous.... but I scare easily. Still....

Rocinante - 15-11-2019 at 08:44

Leftover acidity due to bad recrystalization or long storage (decomposition) can lead to a reaction with the aluminium, causing fire and possible DDT. It is pretty unlikely, though. Also, you should be in different room and casting 10 g should do no serious harm even an a case of full DDT. Just fill in the water (some 10l) and get back an hour later.

Yes, high Pdet explosive can crack those aluminium particles hard. Deformed, exposed Al will burn quickly. Have you read about this new coating https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-26390-9 ?

[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]

[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]

wessonsmith - 15-11-2019 at 12:18

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  


I do have a question, is it safe to melt cast ETN with Al powder? Especially with how sensitive ETN is when molten?! That would make me very nervous.... but I scare easily. Still....


That's the real question right there. It is why I use HTPB and blend my ETN first, then add the metal powder after the ETN is thoroughly coated. Mixing ETN when it's melted with AL powder is just way too scary for me. One positive thing about risking mixing melted ETN and AL is that if you are making 100g or more and it does detonate, you sure as hell won't know it:)

MineMan - 15-11-2019 at 23:50

Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante  
Leftover acidity due to bad recrystalization or long storage (decomposition) can lead to a reaction with the aluminium, causing fire and possible DDT. It is pretty unlikely, though. Also, you should be in different room and casting 10 g should do no serious harm even an a case of full DDT. Just fill in the water (some 10l) and get back an hour later.

Yes, high Pdet explosive can crack those aluminium particles hard. Deformed, exposed Al will burn quickly. Have you read about this new coating https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-26390-9 ?

[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]

[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]


Great find!!!

Since everyone is in a spoon feeding mode... is this something we can do in the home lab?

Petn1933 - 16-11-2019 at 01:13

I thank everyone who participated in the discussion. Good information has been exchanged on this subject which is certainly interesting to everyone.
Thank you :)

MineMan - 16-11-2019 at 10:56

Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante  
Leftover acidity due to bad recrystalization or long storage (decomposition) can lead to a reaction with the aluminium, causing fire and possible DDT. It is pretty unlikely, though. Also, you should be in different room and casting 10 g should do no serious harm even an a case of full DDT. Just fill in the water (some 10l) and get back an hour later.

Yes, high Pdet explosive can crack those aluminium particles hard. Deformed, exposed Al will burn quickly. Have you read about this new coating https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-26390-9 ?

[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]

[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]


Rocinante, they claim the Al increases TNT VOD to 9000m/s yet they are not bold enough to test this claim... I am suspicious. Anyone here want to give it a try?

wessonsmith - 17-11-2019 at 06:38

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante  
Leftover acidity due to bad recrystalization or long storage (decomposition) can lead to a reaction with the aluminium, causing fire and possible DDT. It is pretty unlikely, though. Also, you should be in different room and casting 10 g should do no serious harm even an a case of full DDT. Just fill in the water (some 10l) and get back an hour later.

Yes, high Pdet explosive can crack those aluminium particles hard. Deformed, exposed Al will burn quickly. Have you read about this new coating https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-26390-9 ?

[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]

[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]


Rocinante, they claim the Al increases TNT VOD to 9000m/s yet they are not bold enough to test this claim... I am suspicious. Anyone here want to give it a try?


$280 plus shipping for 100g of 80nm Al powder, that's expensive.

MineMan - 17-11-2019 at 15:13

Hmm. It can be obtained much cheaper from China... but, this could be done with 2 micron flake.

It seems the biggest issue is having a consistent AIH concentration.... paging Rosco!!!

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 19-11-2019 at 16:58

Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante  
If you are looking for a cheap FAE bang, make a foil housing 80×80 cm wide and 50 cm high, use a plate and pour in 45 ml of Et2O, let it evaporate and detonate it via en electrical 3 g+ ETN blasting cap placed at the outside of the foil (total ETN mass, like 1 g in blasting cap and 2 g of ETN in booster).


[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]


Have you tried this? I'm surprised 3gm of etn would initiate a gas cloud.

Regarding the nanoaluminum, dornier 335 A had a way to grind micron and submicron particles. Passivating those with iodate would be cool.

Rocinante - 20-11-2019 at 06:15

I would like to, in the future. So far I've had succes with only an e-match and 20 l of air with 2.8 g ml of diethyl ether (large water bottle). Loud. No way 3 g of ETN won't initiate a propper Et2O/air mixture.

chemist1243 - 21-11-2019 at 12:35

hmmmmm. im not very sure about adding aluminum. i've heard ETN is a bit sensitive to metals, but, if you insist on adding any metal powders, id recommend you plasticize the mixture first. use something like paraffin and vasaline.

LardmanAttack - 27-11-2019 at 21:02

I mean, you could just use NG or EGDN to dissolve the nitrocellulose, but I agree with everyone else that the NC won't do much.

LardmanAttack - 27-11-2019 at 21:05

I wouldn't recommend binding with vaseline, in my experience it tends to completely desensitize ETN and other explosives to the point where you can't even set them off with a blasting cap easily. I would try to use liquid rubber or silicone.

[Edited on 28-11-2019 by LardmanAttack]