Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Retort & Stand Questions

Using a retort, if you cool the spout with water then the water will probably drip into your product.

Why not consider a cheap ground glass joint 'distillation kit' from China via eBay etc. ?

those require running water, + I like the look of the retort/ Id like to avoid purchasing more stands. Simple is oftentimes better

300px-Distillation_by_Retort.png - 28kB

[Edited on 4/23/2020 by Yttrium2]

CharlieA - 23-4-2020 at 15:52

You can put a cheap aquarium pump in a bucket of water to cool a condenser. If you need the condenser to be colder, add ice cubes (or plastic bags of them) to the bucket.
Distilling acetone in a retort does not seem like a good idea. Perhaps this is why alchemists are a rare breed today.

j_sum1 - 23-4-2020 at 18:01

A retort is essentially an air condenser. Useful when you want simplified apperatus and you don't need large rates of heat transfer to achieve condensation. Also good when there is a reason to avoid water cooling.
There is a member here who routinely uses a retort for distillation of sulfuric acid. Search "boiliing the bat" for details.

I would try to avoid active cooling on the retort itself. And I would try to avoid a metal ring stand unless I could insulate it somehow. (A few strips of glass fabric to prevent the retort directly touching the metal would be good.) I am thinking the logistics of say 300°C distillations here and the fact that you want to avoid any thermal stresses as much as possible.

I agree that they look both classic and cool and that might be reason enough to purchase one. It is on my glass fetish list. But realistically, I don't need one for anything that I am doing.

Yttrium2 - 23-6-2020 at 10:47

Is there any other way to support my retort?
without using fiberglass strips?

morganbw - 23-6-2020 at 13:26

Is there any other way to support my retort?
without using fiberglass strips?

This is coming from someone who is using ethanol so please check. It seems that I read a few decades ago that a wire mesh was okay?

Sulaiman - 23-6-2020 at 18:45

Is there any other way to support my retort?
without using fiberglass strips?

You could use a sand bath for heating and supporting the retort.

+1 on not cooling the arm of the retort,
thermal stress and drips going into your product receiver.

+1 on the bucket of water with aquarium pump,
choose wisely between a.c. line voltage, 12 Vdc, or 5 V USB adapter or power bank.
Also, consider a submersible pump, or a more generally useful external (not submerged) pump.
Finally, consider a cpu cooler type of combination of pump plus radiator with fan(s).

Chemorg42 - 23-6-2020 at 22:24

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM

Or if you wait until there's cold weather you can just boil the solvents in an open pan in your room and collect the distillate off the inside of the windows with a squeegee.

You can also use Cripser technology to condense your distillate:

Drill a hole in the side of your refrigerator just large enough to take the nose of the retort.

Heat the retort on its stand with the retort's nose in the hole in the side of your fridge.

The hot distillate will condense in the cold appliance and the liquid will collect in the vegetable crisper.

Or maybe the meat drawer.

Look, this is cutting edge technology and sometimes there are unexpected surprises.

WHAT!
Are these serious suggestions?
Even if they are not, I feel like I need to point out for anyone looking for advice on this thread, do not, repeat, do not do either of these things. The first is most probably dangerous (not to mention inefficient), while the second violates one of the cardinal rules of hobby chemistry, keep away from food!
Apologies if this is supposed to be some joke, but I felt I had to respond.

j_sum1 - 23-6-2020 at 22:46

@ Chemorg42
Yeah it was a joke. You will get to know SWIM if you stick around. You should have got the CRISPR reference.

Chemorg42 - 23-6-2020 at 23:21

@sum1 Yes, I thought it was probably a joke, but the instructions were just specific enough, and the ideas just out there and crazy enough, that I thought someone in the world might have meant it seriously.
As a joke, it is really quite good.

SWIM - 24-6-2020 at 08:32

Yeah, sorry about that.

It does sound way too much like actual instructions you'd find somewhere.

It was a foolish way to try to suggest that retorts tend to leak at least some fumes in most set-ups , so don't use one to distill your pyridine.

Chemorg42 - 24-6-2020 at 09:24

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM

Yeah, sorry about that.

It does sound way too much like actual instructions you'd find somewhere.

It was a foolish way to try to suggest that retorts tend to leak at least some fumes in most set-ups , so don't use one to distill your pyridine.

No, it was very funny, well done!
I could just imagine some idiot meth cook seeing that and saying using my fridge, to cook? Ya, sounds like a good idea!

Yttrium2 - 24-6-2020 at 11:30

All jokes aside, I'll probably go with what is in the depiction I posted

karlos³ - 24-6-2020 at 18:36

Hope you're not going to distill solvents with it...

Yttrium2 - 24-6-2020 at 18:52

Hope you're not going to distill solvents with it...

Well, not the exact depiction. I'm going to use a electric water boiler as my heat source ( I think) -- which I guess is still a bit of a fire hazard.

I'm not really sure how well my vapors will condense, I think so long as I don't heat it up too fast, it will work nicely.

Even if I were to distill flammable solvents in a retort like the one in the depiction, I am thinking that it wouldn't pose any serious problems if I did it outside.

Sulaiman - 24-6-2020 at 23:04

Hope you're not going to distill solvents with it...

If you intend to use a water bath to heat the contents of the retort
then the boiling point of the contents must of course be lower than the boiling point of water.
So the temperature will be not much above ambient temperature,
which, combined with the small effective cooling area, will only allow a VERY slow condensation rate.
So slow that you may give up chemistry in despair.

As a rough guide:
if I distill water using a Leibig condenser such as supplied in a cheap Chinese distillation kit,
I can condense about 6 ml per minute

Using a retort you should plan on much slower rates.

A retort is more suitable for higher boiling point liquids than it is for low b.p. liquids.

Yttrium2 - 25-6-2020 at 08:55

Hope you're not going to distill solvents with it...

Using a retort you should plan on much slower rates.

A retort is more suitable for higher boiling point liquids than it is for low b.p. liquids.

Even in the depiction there isn't adequate cooling surface area? That is what I plan on doing, not just using the spout of the retort to condense vapor.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to modify the neck of the retort so that it connects to an air cooled condenser/ longer length of tubing?

Lastly, can someone explain, (as I've heard before) - Why higher b.p. compounds condense easier at room temp than the lower b.p. compounds? -- I think I get it, but a clear explanation might do wonders.

Thanx all

cyanureeves - 25-6-2020 at 18:21

i got lazy trying to dig up condenser,bent arm joints,kleck clips,igloo cooler with built in pump,hoses and flasks so i used my retort the last 4 times. all you need is a pc. of wood with a hole in it where you can slide the cooling arm into.i always use a clamp to hold up the whole retort and i grab it from the cooling arm right at the base.now thinking it can be done with a pc of wood too really like i stated before.also the last runs i did were on windy days so i covered the flask in aluminum foil like a bell.it trapped all the heat okay but had better luck even wrapping the cooling arm.i just stuck the retort arm into a brown jar in an ice bath and hardly any fumes escaped.my retort is not as long as yours and the arm is a bit thicker probably.its a 500 ml.this summer i will dig out my condenser set up maybe.naw i think i'm done distilling.

zwt2 - 25-6-2020 at 20:30

So slow that you may give up chemistry in despair.

When I was getting started, I bought a retort. Then I used it.
Then I bought a real distillation set.

karlos³ - 25-6-2020 at 20:35

Quote: Originally posted by zwt2

So slow that you may give up chemistry in despair.

When I was getting started, I bought a retort. Then I used it.
Then I bought a real distillation set.

And this is how you do real chemistry ideally.

arkoma - 25-6-2020 at 20:57

Yttrium, if I didn't know better I'd swear you were trolling sometimes, but we know ya here......buy a damn $25 Deschem disty kit and be done. Put the retort on a stand on your shelf with a couple of guppies in it. Be the coolest fishbowl on the block.

Yttrium2 - 27-6-2020 at 13:29

What do you think? Perhaps not big enough for a fish tank,

but perhaps it will work great for about 250mL of solvent

after several runs that is.

or maybe not... Yikes, I really don't want to buy a full distillaton setup and the stands and clamps and all that shit that make it a pretty penny.

[Edited on 6/27/2020 by Yttrium2]

Eddie Current - 27-6-2020 at 15:15

These things make decent wine carafes. I wouldn't bother with chemistry unless you had no other choice.

JJay - 27-6-2020 at 15:59

Cody of Cody's Lab stuck a retort in a sand bath: https://youtu.be/aUzMms62hKw?t=69

Retorts are interesting to me mainly because they are simpler to make than numerous pieces of interchangeable labware.

Yttrium2 - 27-6-2020 at 18:07

retorts appear to be blown from tubing but one end of the tubing is wider, near the bulb.

any ideas as to how retorts are blown?

that 500mL one Cody has got sure is a beauty

[Edited on 6/28/2020 by Yttrium2]

Yttrium2 - 27-6-2020 at 20:06

-I am thinking of adding some tubing to the end of my retort, that way there is a longer spout, and more surface area for condensation. I have seen parafilm wrapped around the spout so it forms a coupling between it and a smaller diameter tube, such as polypropylene.

[Edited on 6/28/2020 by Yttrium2]

Yttrium2 - 4-7-2020 at 13:52

Is this the next best thing since sliced bread in the stand / clamp world?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Retort-Stand-Support-Ring-Stand-24-...

it seems pretty inexpensive, the pole comes in two pieces, is this a bad deal? I am about ready to hop on it.

B(a)P - 4-7-2020 at 14:40

The whole thing weighs less than 3 pounds. There is no way the base is heavy enough.

Yttrium2 - 4-7-2020 at 15:23

really? its got a foot print, how much should it weigh?

It is a huge price difference.

[Edited on 7/4/2020 by Yttrium2]

B(a)P - 4-7-2020 at 15:59

really? its got a foot print, how much should it weigh?

It is a huge price difference.

[Edited on 7/4/2020 by Yttrium2]

Enough that your entire reaction set up does not come crashing down breaking glassware and spreading hot corrosive reaction mixture everywhere.

Steve s - 4-7-2020 at 16:23

I have 3 glass retorts and i love em, never use em but i love em !!

When you think about it these simple bits of glassware kinda changed the world

[Edited on 5-7-2020 by Steve s]

Yttrium2 - 4-7-2020 at 16:26

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

really? its got a foot print, how much should it weigh?

It is a huge price difference.

[Edited on 7/4/2020 by Yttrium2]

Enough that your entire reaction set up does not come crashing down breaking glassware and spreading hot corrosive reaction mixture everywhere.

I think I'll take my chances with the weight of these stands as being satisfactory, If I could get a professional to chime in on the matter, I'd appreciate it. I think it will support the weight, if it gets knocked into, that is another story, and I think in that scenario it has more to do with the footprint (center of gravity of the apparatus on the stand, vs the weight of the base)

so could someone else, or someone professional chime in? Hence when did lab stand base plate weight become an issue? (Lately its been said a lot, but I want to make sure it is not a regurgitation from someone unqualified)

[Edited on 7/5/2020 by Yttrium2]

Yttrium2 - 4-7-2020 at 16:36

I mean its not like the distillation apparatus is going to be mounted that far from the center of the rod, so it shouldn't be leveraging on the base that much. -- and if it did, it would take a heavy apparatus-and a considerably light weight base plate before it was tipped

karlos³ - 4-7-2020 at 17:51

You're likely better off, cheaper too, and get a qualitatively superior stand, if you simply build it yourself from scratch.
I build my own with a metal base weighing around 8kg(more or less) and a rod of 70 or 80cm screwed on the plate, and while they work well for most applications, it still is barely sufficient for some unusually heavier things.

For example, when doing solvent extraction of a larger volumes, like some biosynthesis corresponding to a 1l separation funnel filled almost to the brim(easily ~1,5l), then it becomes obvious how the heavy funnel is close to the upper limit of what these stands can manage.
A weight like this in the necessary height is a negative impact that destabilises the stands notably.

So think that well thorough, if the little one you consider to buy will be sufficient for everything you're planning to do with it?

[Edited on 5-7-2020 by karlos³]

Yttrium2 - 4-7-2020 at 17:59

You're likely better off, cheaper too, and get a qualitatively superior stand, if you simply build it yourself from scratch.
I build my own with a metal base weighing around 8kg(more or less) and a rod of 70 or 80cm screwed on the plate, and while they work well for most applications, it still is barely sufficient for some unusually heavier things.

For example, when doing solvent extraction of a larger volumes, like some biosynthesis corresponding to a 1l separation funnel filled almost to the brim(easily ~1,5l), then it becomes obvious how the heavy funnel is close to the upper limit of what these stands can manage.
A weight like this in the necessary height is a negative impact that destabilises the stands notably.

So think that well thorough, if the little one you consider to buy will be sufficient for everything you're planning to do with it?

[Edited on 5-7-2020 by karlos³]

this one is $25 USD, its not the little one

building one requires tools and supplies, as much as i'd love one made from granite. The collapsible nature of it is a + too.

[Edited on 7/5/2020 by Yttrium2]

B(a)P - 4-7-2020 at 18:46

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

really? its got a foot print, how much should it weigh?

It is a huge price difference.

[Edited on 7/4/2020 by Yttrium2]

Enough that your entire reaction set up does not come crashing down breaking glassware and spreading hot corrosive reaction mixture everywhere.

I think I'll take my chances with the weight of these stands as being satisfactory, If I could get a professional to chime in on the matter, I'd appreciate it.

so could someone else, or someone professional chime in? Hence when did lab stand base plate weight become an issue? (Lately its been said a lot, but I want to make sure it is not a regurgitation from someone unqualified)

[Edited on 7/5/2020 by Yttrium2]

Ouch!

Weight has become an issue because companies are cutting corners in an effort to produce ever cheaper products.

Yttrium2 - 4-7-2020 at 18:48

no offense meant

I'm not a professional either

Tsjerk - 4-7-2020 at 19:00

no offense meant

I'm not a professional either

Are you really asking for a professional on an amateur forum? Maybe you should ask your local engineers for advice. Don't forget to check their fee before doing so, when I give professional advice I charge hefty.

Yttrium2 - 4-7-2020 at 19:02

lol
bump,

well, it just seems to me by looking at it that it would be fairly stable.

I'd like to get some responses, going for a walk

Tsjerk - 4-7-2020 at 20:03

It wasn't meant as a joke. And this is a forum, not a chat group, you can bump with new information if you don't get a response in a couple of days, not in a couple of hours, or even minutes in your case. And I don't care if you go for a walk.

If you think it is stable, just buy the bloody thing and shut up about it.

B(a)P - 5-7-2020 at 00:37

no offense meant

I'm not a professional either

It will take my chemistry ego a long time to get over this.
I just went and measured up my report stand. It was purchased from a laboratory supply company. It cost only about 3 time what you are looking at. It weighs 3 kg and the base is 180 mm wide by 300 mm deep. Although I am not a professional, this is what the professionals are using

B(a)P - 7-8-2020 at 02:30

What did you end up going with @Yttrium2?

Yttrium2 - 8-8-2020 at 10:26

Haven't made the purchase yet, but I'll be going with the cheaper stand for sure $25 USD isnt' bad for the stand and the clamp.

probably get a flexi clamp from united nuclear also

Yttrium2 - 8-8-2020 at 10:35

now I've got to figure out how I'll piece together a distillation setup with a claisen adaptor and sep funnel.

the nanshin kit on ebay has been relisted, it is somewhere, -- they took almost everything off due to the covid virus cause I guess they stopped business or something

+ there is a higher shipping price now

might go with deschem, they have a better thermometer in the kit

karlos³ - 8-8-2020 at 12:53

You only add the sep funnel to the distillation setup if you are doing a steam distillation, where you need to add fresh warm water continously.
Otherwise it is not needed, just put stoppers or thermometer adapters in the claisen.

morganbw - 8-8-2020 at 15:23

Hey guy, I have found that I need to place some weights on my base plates to maintain integrity. We do what we must. You may be able to figure this out.

Yttrium2 - 8-8-2020 at 16:10