Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Societal Issue around COVID (in my city anyway)

Societal Issue around COVID (in my city anyway)

Syn the Sizer - 1-10-2020 at 07:02

I have a comment about sheeple and COVID. I am not a denier but I also feel it isn't as bad as it seemed to be in the beginning. Yes it spread like wild fire, faster than any single strain of the flu. But they blew shit way out of proportion.

Yes it is a good idea to be safe, wash you hands before eating. Don't touch your face in public. Don't cough on people etc all the general stuff we all should have been already doing pre-COVID so we should all already have it it us to be safe. So really this issue goes beyond COVID safety

Now to my point of sheeple. When I see sheeple open a public door or other public shit with their sleeve I think, man are they fucking stupid. When I touch shit with my bare hand, I can wash or sanitize my hand which will help prevent my contracting ANY virus. Well sheeple I am sure don't wash or sanitize the sleeves of their shirts several times a day. So instead of washing ALL viruses off of your hands and keeping yourself safe, you are carrying everything you touched everywhere you go all day, wiping your forehead with that same sleeve as you sweat. Possibly accidentally rubbing it on your food as you lunch, if you are a smoker bringing that sleeve to your face every time you take a puff. This also increases the risk of also contracting influenza, norovirus etc. But I guess it is ok as long as you wash your hands right.

[Edited on 1-10-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

unionised - 1-10-2020 at 07:19

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer

But they blew shit way out of proportion.

Even with all the precautions that you somehow consider unnecessary, it has killed a million people.

On that, fairly simple , basis, I say you are utterly and stupidly wrong.

Further, I doubt that you arrived at that conclusion on your own; I imagine that you are influenced by others.
You might want to stop and ponder "Which ones are the sheeple?"

Syn the Sizer - 1-10-2020 at 07:41

Lol you are funny. No I agree tons died, and I agree the precautions are needed. I believe you misread my post.

Yes they did blow it out of proportion, in my city. Read my post name it is in brackets (in my city anyway).

My point was not the virus itself but peoples stupidity in using a fucking sleeve to open a door when that sleeve isn't getting washed of any virus including influenza and others. Than those idiots eating, drinking, and smoking with that hand and the dirty sleeve touching their face. That dirty sleeve touchingbthe counter of the store in the mall. Those are the sheeple risking the spread of the virus because even if they wash their hands their sleeves are still dirty.

You see many businesses went under in my city because they shut it down in April. When these mask rules that are just coming into affect now could have prevented those local business from shutting down permanently.

Do you open doors with your sleeve or do you use your hand and wash or sanitize like me and other adults do?

[Edited on 1-10-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

[Edited on 2-10-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

TheMrbunGee - 1-10-2020 at 07:42

Among other, there are two types of people- those who understand the potential danger of a virus and a huge majority of ones who does not. Ones who does not have a clue about any micro organisms, sadly, does not understand that They might have the virus in/on any part of their body and are walking around in busy place with invisible, loaded gun. Mostly, "because I have rights to walk here" not necessity.

If every one knew how to act when this virus is present, we would not need even half of precautions, if any. Problem being, sadly, the ignorance of those people. that is why they is or should be treated like savage animals, and forced to sit home. Virus in not the problem, problem is stupidity.

(I see we agree on stupidity)

[Edited on 1-10-2020 by TheMrbunGee]

[Edited on 1-10-2020 by TheMrbunGee]

stoichiometric_steve - 1-10-2020 at 07:46

Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee

problem is stupidity.

yep!

Chemorg42 - 1-10-2020 at 09:03

LOOK OUT!
Its the second coming of the mask thread, now with even more uses of the words "Sheeple" and "Stupidity."

TheMrbunGee - 1-10-2020 at 09:11

Quote: Originally posted by Chemorg42

LOOK OUT!
Its the second coming of the mask thread, now with even more uses of the words "Sheeple" and "Stupidity."

Looks like everything is fine, where You live, nice!

Jealous.

Fyndium - 1-10-2020 at 09:19

Covid has killed a million people since march 19.

In a year, about 62 million people die in the world total for all causes included.

During the Covid pandemic, about 30 million people have died in total.

People who succumb to the 'vid, 99% have at least one serious medical condition and the median age is about 80 years(source to be checked).

So, the epidemic has caused an increase of about 3.3% in total mortality. Considering the facts above, the people succumbed are concentrated in the high deciles in which the half-life is in any condition around 5 years, so the cumulative effect for under 40-year-old is probably less than 0.1%, which brings it well into the margin of a rare disease.

People of younger age and of good fitness are a rarity in the statistics. There are those - but yes, perfectly healthy people die for ordinary infections, cancer and even flu every year, because, well, that's just statistics.

Syn the Sizer - 1-10-2020 at 09:46

Quote: Originally posted by Chemorg42

LOOK OUT!
Its the second coming of the mask thread, now with even more uses of the words "Sheeple" and "Stupidity."

No, this is the don't use your sleeve to open a door thread, completely different lol.

karlos³ - 1-10-2020 at 09:52

Oh boy, here we go again...

Many morticians in my country are on the verge to go bankrupt because of the epidemic, by the way.

@Syn the Sizer, be careful, take a look into the former mask thread before you go on.

Syn the Sizer - 1-10-2020 at 10:09

I do agree people died, that is the point of my post. If people keep opening doors with their sleeve it will not stop the spread. What will stop the spread is using your hands and proper hand washing. It is an issue in my city, almost everybody grabs everything with a sleeve, pushes buttons with a sleeve.

If we want our world (or at least my city) to go back to normal than we need to practice hand washing not, sleeve using. I fully feel this is a pandemic and will continue to be until people start using some common sense. I am not arguing for or against any forceful precautions, but I am against people using their sleeves for everything.

The next time you grab a coffee from a coffee shop think about the guy in front of you and his long sleeves that were just rested on the counter your coffee is now on, did he use that sleeve to open a possibly infected door? How about the door you just opened? Or the elevator button you just pushed?

I don't wear a mask, or gloves, I never stayed inside my house from the first case in March until today. I practice proper hand washing/sanitizing. I even ate in public the whole time and never contracted COVID, but I don't touch my face, nor do I use a sleeve to open doors and I wash my hands.

This is purely a you don't scratch your ass with your sleeve than eat a meal so why would you touch a door handle with the your sleeve and eat a meal post. Your ass is probably cleaner than that door handle.

[Edited on 1-10-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

[Edited on 1-10-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

Herr Haber - 1-10-2020 at 11:30

When you say people use their sleeves do you mean that:

- They pull their hand in the sleeve and use it as a glove
- They use their elbows to operate and keep doors open

macckone - 1-10-2020 at 12:46

Fyndium,
Overweight is a pre-existing condition, asthma, diabetes, high blood pressure, COPD, sleep apnea, kidney disease, liver disease, etc.
In the USA almost 75% have a pre-existing condition so when you say 76% have a pre-existing condition, it only differs slightly from the general population in the country with 20% of deaths.

Age is a big factor those under 29 are not 'high risk' unless they have a preexisting condition.
Over 29 quickly increases in risk.
For people over 80 this is the angel of death.
The current average age is 71 in the US.
The IQR is 59-81.
Meaning a quarter of all deaths are below 59.
Under 60 the death rate is pretty stable until you get down to below 30 then drops off.

Data based on Feb - Apr.

Since april the rate of death in younger groups has increased while older groups has decreased.
Even in the under 29 crowd this is much deadlier than the flu.

macckone - 1-10-2020 at 12:55

The best way to categorize covid is excess deaths:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

One caveat is data is delayed by up to 8 weeks so before Aug 1st should be accurate that week and after are likely still inaccurate.
Currently the rate of excess deaths for the last 'accurate' week is 18.2%.

As for using a sleeve or elbow, using an elbow is a good idea for the person doing it.
You are unlikely to touch your elbow to your eyes, nose or mouth.
The sleeve is less safe, as pointed out by the OP.

PS. That is 18.2% over upper bound, it is 22.9 above average.
Some people who died of covid would have died anyway but somewhere between 18.2 and 22.9% would not have. Given the average death rate close to 3 million a year means we should expect 600,000 deaths this year and the excess deaths indicate we are already pushing half a million compared to the official total of 209K.

[Edited on 1-10-2020 by macckone]

Syn the Sizer - 1-10-2020 at 12:58

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

When you say people use their sleeves do you mean that:

- They pull their hand in the sleeve and use it as a glove
- They use their elbows to operate and keep doors open

Use their sleeve as a glove, gloves get removed after being soiled, your sleeve stays on your shirt. If it was the elbow it wouldn't be an issue in my mind, no different than coughing into your elbow.

karlos³ - 1-10-2020 at 14:10

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

You are unlikely to touch your elbow to your eyes, nose or mouth.

For sure I would to see the person who can do this

Syn the Sizer - 1-10-2020 at 14:17

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

You are unlikely to touch your elbow to your eyes, nose or mouth.

For sure I would to see the person who can do this

I had to try lol.

morganbw - 1-10-2020 at 14:20

Probably nothing here but there has been many death from maybe probably/covid in the small county I live in. I personally think that it is a real thing and I worry that it could/will take me out. I am not the healthiest person around.

[Edited on 10/1/2020 by morganbw]

j_sum1 - 1-10-2020 at 14:26

[Mod comment]
I don't have time to read this right now, but it has been reported as a thread not going anywhere good. Rather than lock it unjustly I am just going to remind everyone to play nice: you know the thing: quote stats, state sources, no perjoratives or slurs or gross generalisations.

Syn the Sizer - 1-10-2020 at 14:29

I understand, I too feel it is a real thing, and it is the less healthy people such as you I think of when I see a person grab a door with their sleeve like a glove. What did they touch with it before that and what are they going to touch with it after that.

I am not concerned for my life with COVID I am healthy but I still take precautions to prevent spread, just in case I by chance come unknowing into contact with the virus. One of those precautions is using my bare hand to open the door than sanitizing at the station.

Another option is as mentioned, using an elbow.

Syn the Sizer - 1-10-2020 at 14:37

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

[Mod comment]
I don't have time to read this right now, but it has been reported as a thread not going anywhere good. Rather than lock it unjustly I am just going to remind everyone to play nice: you know the thing: quote stats, state sources, no perjoratives or slurs or gross generalisations.

I didn't expect it to go much of anywhere, it was a concern I had hence why it went in societal... It is however a discussion on a real situation that truly is a societal issue and I thank you for letting it go. I too hope it stays clean and free of direct insults and that we can discuss this issue.

I truly do feel using your sleeve as a glove is a major health and safety issue. As mentioned earlier in the post gloves get removed after soiling, I don't put a pair on in the am, go to work, do everything in my day with the same pair of gloves on.

I however have a question now, was my use of sheeple a slur or a generalization? if it is I was not intending it as so.

karlos³ - 1-10-2020 at 15:21

How many people who use their sleeve for such a thing would wipe sweat from their forehand, with the exact same part of their sleeve?
And the people who tend to have forehead sweat, for how many of them is the reason to even having to wipe theirs that they are obese, as obese people tend to sweat more?
Lets hope for them not to have all these things combined together, using their sleeves to open doors, being obese and thus greater disposition to sweat, and the bad habit of wiping sweat from said region with their sleeves.
I think thats much worse that simply touching ones faces under usual circumstances, with all the things residing on the door handle and then the sleeve, who are then able to transfer directly to the face.
I would really like to know how much that could statistically improve their chances for infection?
I guess by a great deal!

[Edited on 1-10-2020 by karlos³]

Syn the Sizer - 1-10-2020 at 15:28

@karlos³ Yes I have to agree with you that all those factors combined could be fatal. If cholesterol doesn't get them first lol.

Though you make a point that not all people who open doors in such a way are also going to wipe their foreheads or are buying coffee etc.

Herr Haber - 1-10-2020 at 17:53

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

When you say people use their sleeves do you mean that:

- They pull their hand in the sleeve and use it as a glove
- They use their elbows to operate and keep doors open

Same thoughts here.
I'm up to a point where I unclothe and change without sitting when I get home so I dont contaminate around with my ass that was in public transports. It also takes 2-3 hand washes to get changed. One obviously before removing the mask.

I realized before Covid I'd wash my hands 2-3 times aswell when I remove the gloves & lab coat to go to the bathroom (and once more after of course).
So I guess the pandemic didnt change a lot for me in that regard.

Hey, I too have a question now. I'll open another thread for that.

karlos³ - 1-10-2020 at 18:24

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

change without sitting when I get home so I dont contaminate around with my ass that was in public transports.

I'm already doing that, like forever, nasty public transport seats, they really can be disgusting.
I don't want that on my couch or anywhere else.

outer_limits - 1-10-2020 at 21:43

There are hundred of thousands victims of COVID in my country and the number is still growing.

Those are the people having cancer who can't continue their therapy because hospitals switched to covid treatment. People with heart diseases and infractions who can't get help in time because of the stupid decisions.
People who could be cured but they can't because the diagnostics is not available, guess why.

People who lost their jobs and homes due to the debts that were caused by the lockdown.

I don't deny the existence of the virus as many do. But look at the statistics - 23.7 * 10^6 of people who survived and 1.02 * 10^6 of deaths. That gives the mortality of 4.3%.
Remember that not all of them died from this disease. If someone died from diabetes, stroke, heart attack or accident and had the covid he will be included in the victims count.
So, I suppose that the mortality is much lower, maybe 1.5-2%.

But take a look what's going on. There are people who get very rich due to pandemic and panic. The government (at least here) is able to make the law that wouldn't be possible without scaring the shit out of people.

In normal conditions we consider a person having a virus and being able to spread it but without any problems caused by it as disease carrier. But here they started to naming it as being ill without symptoms.
Just to scare the people.

[Edited on 2-10-2020 by outer_limits]

j_sum1 - 1-10-2020 at 22:35

Well, in my corner of the world, it just isn't a thing to try to open doors etc with a sleeve. Which speaks to the issue that the spread of (any) disease is dependent on human behaviour (ie, cultural matters). Which implies that blanket rulings, policies and even opinions on the disease need to locally rather than universally applied.

It also explains why there is often such diversity of opinion even among scientifically literate people such as are on this board.

My particular beef is this – I live in a country where politicians have taken it upon themselves to promote fear and to prescribe draconian laws to control people's behaviour, out of proportion to any health risk and even contrary to health advice. Thrown into the mix is a whole lot of political point-scoring and a scandalous abdication of responsibility. If you are interested, look up what has happened in the states of Victoria and Queensland Australia. Sky News Australia is a good place to begin. The shutdown of the economy and the literal locking of people in their homes has cost billions and has caused enormous health concerns far in excess of the damage and death that COVID caused. There has been a severe erosion of civil liberties. (For details, search "omnibus bill VIC" for a proposed law to give appointed public servants the right to make arrests and to detain people indefinitely on the suspicion that they might break a law at some stage in the future. These people would be given powers in excess of regular police powers including forcible entry and search and arrest without warrant. The laws that people might potentially break include being outside for longer that 2 hours, travelling more than 5km from home, wanting to exercise playing tennis (golf and cricket are now ok though) and failing to wear a mask outside working on a farm miles from any other person.) None of this has any relation to real health concerns.

There are plenty who welcome these measures, unreasonably fearful in the situation and convinced that the politicians are keeping them safe. There is a real need for some good, well-presented scientific information to put the virus in its proper perspective, to guide public policy and to inform people so that they can make intelligent decisions about their own actions. I don't see it happening though.

[mod note]
Thread seems to be just fine. I gather the mask thread was not. Let's keep this one informative and congenial.
J.
[/mod note]

[edit] typo

[Edited on 2-10-2020 by j_sum1]

B(a)P - 2-10-2020 at 03:25

Such a strange approach j_sum1.
Yep, would love to get to Qld right now, but NSW needs 30 days straight of no community transmission before I can. I bet we can't, I also bet Qld can't. So weird......

macckone - 2-10-2020 at 08:01

outer_limits,
People who die from traumatic injury in the US are not counted as covid deaths.
Stroke, Heart Attack, Kidney Failure and Liver Failure are the modes of death from covid.
Few people actually die of hypoxia.
As I pointed out in my post the excess death count (which does not include trauma), indicates it is actually killed more people, not less.

I have pre-diabetes, sleep apnea, overweight, and high blood pressure I will probably live another 40 years absent getting covid.
If I have a heart attack does that mean my death should not count?

outer_limits - 2-10-2020 at 10:30

I agree, these are the modes of covid death.

But here it is a bit different situation than in US. The hospitals are paid by government . They get more money for covid cases and they are trying to maximize their income.

The organization here is a pure chaos. People locked in homes are receiving the phone calls that they must undergo the full quarantine because they are positive. It wouldn't be strange and surprising but some of them were not tested.