Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Ballistic gel

Ballistic gel

Yankeehater2679 - 15-10-2020 at 20:45

Hello guys this is my first post, and im sry if this is the wrong section. Im just learning and ive been watching tons of videos on youtube and learning what i can. One thing ive been researching was making clear ballistic gel, and found alot of ppl use hydrogen peroxide to make the gel alot clearer tho not completly clear. It seems most proxides have this bleaching effect tho sodium hypoclorite will not lighten the gel. I was wondering if some1 could help me understand this, is it just the oxidation thats causing the bleaching effect or is it something else.

For example the recipe im referring to is the fbi standard of 2 liters of gelitn to 9 liters of warm water tho ive heard u got up the gelitin when adding hydrogen peroxide. For best restults it seems to be about 400-500 ml of hyrogen peroxide 2.5 liters of geliten and 8 liters of hot water . ik most would prefer geliten in grams but for some reason i can't find that at this moment. Im sorry.

chemist1243 - 16-10-2020 at 07:32

Quote: Originally posted by Yankeehater2679

Hello guys this is my first post, and im sry if this is the wrong section. Im just learning and ive been watching tons of videos on youtube and learning what i can. One thing ive been researching was making clear ballistic gel, and found alot of ppl use hydrogen peroxide to make the gel alot clearer tho not completly clear. It seems most proxides have this bleaching effect tho sodium hypoclorite will not lighten the gel. I was wondering if some1 could help me understand this, is it just the oxidation thats causing the bleaching effect or is it something else.

For example the recipe im referring to is the fbi standard of 2 liters of gelitn to 9 liters of warm water tho ive heard u got up the gelitin when adding hydrogen peroxide. For best restults it seems to be about 400-500 ml of hyrogen peroxide 2.5 liters of geliten and 8 liters of hot water . ik most would prefer geliten in grams but for some reason i can't find that at this moment. Im sorry.

That’s really interesting, but i dont really know all that much about gelatin. Ive made ballistics gel for various experiments and have never heard of using any bleaching agents for clarity, though i suppose if you were trying to recreate a bullet or knife entering a body, forensics or whoever does that thing would want to be able to see everything clearly. Where did you find this “fbi standard”?

If you truly need to know, the information is out there. Often times simply calling the person who works with something leads to the answer. Have you tried calling Remington or Smith&Wesson’s testing department? I would imagine they bleach the gel i assume they use to test the effectiveness of their weapons, or at least i hope lol

njl - 16-10-2020 at 08:51

How do you know NaClO doesn't work?

Yankeehater2679 - 16-10-2020 at 14:50

Ite been tested extensivly it all it did was effect structual stability

zed - 16-10-2020 at 19:40

I know all about it. And, I'm not going to tell you. I don't help haters.

Yankeehater2679 - 16-10-2020 at 20:17

Quote: Originally posted by zed

I know all about it. And, I'm not going to tell you. I don't help haters.

Wow u take sports real serious its a joke name based off some hats and shirts during the reverse the curse for the red sox b4 the won in 04 they dont even make anymore but if its that serious to u no big deal have a nice day man hopefuly some1 else will educate me but if not life goes on ill keep researching and update if i find something myself

chemist1243 - 17-10-2020 at 12:17

Quote: Originally posted by zed

I know all about it. And, I'm not going to tell you. I don't help haters.

I don’t believe you know a thing about it.

Besides, can’t we all just set aside out differences in the name of science?! I would like to know about it too, you know.

Yankeehater2679 - 18-10-2020 at 01:01

So guys, ive done some research and hydrogen peroxide gets its bleaching effect because its a weak acid and strong oxidizer. Atleast according to an article by McGill universety. Which makes me wonder if dillute nitric acid would do the job. I hope to do some testing at some point but id have to get some nitric. Unfortantaly i dont have glassware to make any and i d love to get some opinons on this?

[Edited on Oct10/18/2020 by Yankeehater2679]

EthidiumBromide - 18-10-2020 at 01:33

Dilute nitric acid behaves pretty much like an ordinary acid most of the time. Remember - acids don't become "weak" because you dilute them or "strong" because you concentrate them, at least not in the chemical sense. The strength of an acid depends on how readily it dissociates its protons when in aqueous solutions, not how corrosive or reactive it is. For example: HF can dissolve glass and is very toxic, but as an acid it's not particularly strong. (Read up on acid strength and pKa values of acids for more information on this).

Hydrogen peroxide is indeed a very weak acid because a very small percentage of its molecules can give off the protons in solutions. The exact opposite is true for nitric acid - it's very strong, so in solutions it is mostly dissociated and few of its molecules remain associated. Dilute solutions of nitric acid furthermore tend to lose many of their strong oxidizing features (it is still somewhat oxidizing, but not to the same extent as in concentrated solutions).

Yankeehater2679 - 18-10-2020 at 05:11

Quote: Originally posted by EthidiumBromide

Dilute nitric acid behaves pretty much like an ordinary acid most of the time. Remember - acids don't become "weak" because you dilute them or "strong" because you concentrate them, at least not in the chemical sense. The strength of an acid depends on how readily it dissociates its protons when in aqueous solutions, not how corrosive or reactive it is. For example: HF can dissolve glass and is very toxic, but as an acid it's not particularly strong. (Read up on acid strength and pKa values of acids for more information on this).

Hydrogen peroxide is indeed a very weak acid because a very small percentage of its molecules can give off the protons in solutions. The exact opposite is true for nitric acid - it's very strong, so in solutions it is mostly dissociated and few of its molecules remain associated. Dilute solutions of nitric acid furthermore tend to lose many of their strong oxidizing features (it is still somewhat oxidizing, but not to the same extent as in concentrated solutions).

Thst makes sence, my first thought was to add a weak acid and buble oxygen thru it. Problem is bubles are one of the main contributers to ruined clarity. So then nitric came to mind cause its the only thing i could think of that was both an acid and an oxidizer. The article also said ", it steals the electrons that hold the atoms together, which in turn cause the staining molecules to fall apart." So idk if that gives anyone some ideas

chemist1243 - 18-10-2020 at 16:39

It’s possible that compounds in the gelatin which cause the cloudy yellow color of ballistic gel are forming organic peroxide’s with the hydrogen peroxide, and which are degraded by heat into colorless byproducts. This could be what they mean by the staining molecules “falling apart”.

I could very likely be wrong, however I’d like to put the idea out there just as a thought. Could you give me the link to this article all of you are talking about? I would better understand if i could read it myself.

Yankeehater2679 - 19-10-2020 at 02:14

The article is actually about why it whitens teeth, i couldnt find one about ballistic gel. As far as ik theres less then a handful of companys making the stuff and its considered a trade secret, for a ik it maybe impossible to so ant home. I kind of doubt it tho based on how much progress has already been made. But hers the article about teeth whiting

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-you-asked/how-does-...

I also found this paten that talks about using a polymer and white mineral oil to make a clear gel. I havnt finshed reading the patent yet but heres the link if any1 intrested.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070116766A1/en

woelen - 19-10-2020 at 05:25

Quote: Originally posted by EthidiumBromide

[...]Dilute solutions of nitric acid furthermore tend to lose many of their strong oxidizing features (it is still somewhat oxidizing, but not to the same extent as in concentrated solutions).

This also can be explained. In concentrated acid (e.g. 65% HNO3), a considerable part of the acid is not dissociated, but you have molecules of HNO3. In dilute acid (e.g. 5%) nearly 100% of all molecules are dissociated into nitrate ions and H(+) is aquated (coordinated to water molecules). Nitrate ions are resonance stabilized and are much less reactive than the molecule HNO3. In the nitrate ion, all oxygen atoms are similarly bound, in HNO3, one of the oxygen atoms is bound very differently.
For the same reason, covalent organic nitrates are much more reactive than ionic salt-like nitrates.

This effect is even more pronounced with perchloric acid. That acid is amazingly strong and hence even a 70% solution is almost completely dissociated. A 70% solution for this reason only is strongly acidic and hardly oxidizing. Even strong reductors like sulfites, ascorbic acid and HI are not oxidized by 70% HClO4. On the other hand, anhydrous perchloric acid is extremely strongly oxidizing and with many reductors (even with stable materials likle paper, wood, sugar) it reacts explosively, even at room temperature. Salt-like perchlorates are remarkably stable, also salts of protonated organics (e.g. amines) and require heating to 200 C or more before they decompose (and then often inflame or deflagrate), while covalent perchlorates (esters) are insanely sensitive and even detonate when agitated with a stirring bar or rod.

Yankeehater2679 - 23-10-2020 at 21:36

Ok guys i had a thought, and i have a feeling this might be more amaturish then smart but i feel like its worth asking.
What do u think of adding a small amount sulfuric acid to help the hydrogen peroxide along. I plan on trying it as soon as i can get some clear sulfuric acid. Probaly steal some from a car battery.

chemist1243 - 24-10-2020 at 12:10

You could try it. I dont know what it would do but it would be interesting to see if it makes any difference. Also, if you want clear sulfuric acid use the brand “santeen”. It’s basically just sulfuric acid and water, nothing like the what they usually put in drain openers that make them have that red-brown color.