Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Do not keep illegal drugs for personal use in your house, if you do chemistry as a hobby

Do not keep illegal drugs for personal use in your house, if you do chemistry as a hobby

Cou - 26-10-2020 at 17:43

it's hard to know what kind of "Evidence" is sufficient probable cause for a judge to sign a search warrant.

examples of things that can go wrong:
* buying glassware from china. Some asshole in customs checks your package, sees it's shipping to a residential address, concludes it's going to a meth lab, and reports the package to your local PD. Local PD shows this package to a judge, asshole judge considers it enough probable cause for a search warrant.

* buying red phosphorus from overseas. Many european suppliers will sell red phosphorus to individuals in the US. Red phosphorus is not illegal. It has legitimate uses. But again, some asshole in customs could report it, and some asshole judge could consider it probable cause of a search warrant.

in my opinion, those things alone shouldn't be enough probable cause for a warrant. They should look for other things. If someone is buying red P, AND a trash pull finds several packages of sudafed in the trash, that would definitely be reasonable suspicion for sure. Police could also pull equipment from the trash and test for methamphetamine residues. Detect the cat urine smell indicative of methamphetamine manufacture. Spy on the house and look for strangers frequently entering the house. They have investigative methods to find out if the glassware/red P is for clandestine purposes, and I hope a judge would require more evidence before signing a warrant.

I wish I could know what really happens, but I don't know what judges consider probable cause, and I have zero experience with the legal process.

My point is, if you're an amateur chemist, do not keep illegal drugs in your house. No cannabis, no LSD, no DMT. A police search could happen, and they'll find that stuff in your bedroom drawer and make the rest of your time on Earth a living hell.

Note that using illegal drugs does not require them always being inside your house.

[Edited on 10-27-2020 by Cou]

Fyndium - 26-10-2020 at 22:47

For people outside US, where judge signed warrant is not needed, the police can decide themselves that this guy's gonna get rolled.

Generally, if ordering something that might even remotely appear to be of interest for officials, it is a good idea to organize your stuff so that if they happen to show up, you look legit from the beginning.

arkoma - 27-10-2020 at 08:42

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Note that using illegal drugs does not require them always being inside your house.

arkoma smiles and sneaks away

Cou - 6-11-2020 at 00:47

.

arkoma - 6-11-2020 at 09:51

I got a two year term in California for concentrated cannabis (1993). Was 30, never even did any county time. Go to the pen do not pass go..........then FOUR YEARS of parole.

Chino: Central, West, and East facilities.
CSP-LAC (Lancaster)
Tehachapi
Soledad
CMC
CRC
Tracy
Folsom
Chuckawalla
Centinela

Don't think I forgot any of CDC's fine resorts that California graciously entertained me in. Fuckheads.

War-On-Drugs. Nah. War-On-Poor-People.

charley1957 - 6-11-2020 at 10:14

Yep, those who can afford it the least, get hurt the most.

Cou - 6-11-2020 at 12:33

I had to swear off all illegal drugs because I do chemistry at home. It's a trade off I had to make. Be a boring dude who just does drugs in his room, or be a mad scientist excitingly mixing together chemicals at home? I guess hobbies are better than drugs.

Most of the time, as long as you keep personal amounts of drugs in your bedroom, the police are not coming after you. It all changes when you need to order red phosphorus from overseas for alcohol bromination.

karlos³ - 10-11-2020 at 11:39

Huh, I combine those two.

You flushed 3g of DMT down the toilet Cou?

Steam - 10-11-2020 at 12:04

Just a few comments on this. I think it easy to think of police and judges as (malfunctioning?) robots who do mental calculus to weigh the odds of them finding potential drug labs. In reality, most of them are simply people trying to make decisions based on a limited amount of information. There are many factors that go into a decision to "investigate" a potential drug lab, but a surprising number of clandestine labs are brought to the attention of law enforcement by citizen repots and CI's. I forget the statistic off the top of my head, but it is a plurality. Some other factors which can contribute to increased suspicion is giving off the "appearance" of a clandestine lab. Factors are poor cleanliness (both inside and outside the lab), no dedicated lab space, poor working conditions (lighting and ventilation), working in an area where such labs are typically found (more impoverished areas), poor lab waste management (especial when it comes to odorous materials), buying precursor materials can be a contributing factor as well; however, warrants based on PCMs do not account for the same volume as they used to.

The most important thing is to look like a respectable lab an to not look like a clandestine lab. Also, I know this goes without saying but it is really inadvisable to have any drugs which you cannot legally possess in the area around your lab. This is especially true when you consider the consequences of constructive possession and civil forfeiture. Frankly, in today's age, I believe the consequences are great to risk your entire future for any amount of drugs. Remeber, a lab alone is really uninteresting to a prosecutor, drugs alone will be take it or leave it for a prosecutor, however a lab + drugs will be a huge notch in a belt for a prosecutor looking to put a dent the drug trade. Don't give a prosecutor such satisfaction.

TLDR: If you do not want to be treated like a meth cook do not behave like a meth cook.

karlos³ - 10-11-2020 at 12:26

Nobody wants to be treated a meth cook, I want to be treated as a sophisticated drug chemist and I got that treatment last time

Including overregional newspaper reports

aromaticfanatic - 27-11-2020 at 13:16

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Nobody wants to be treated a meth cook, I want to be treated as a sophisticated drug chemist and I got that treatment last time

Including overregional newspaper reports

Jesus what were you making?
Synthetic cannabanoids? LSD? Methadone?

karlos³ - 27-11-2020 at 13:39

Synthetic cannabinoids was a large topic for me back then, yes.
But all sorts of designer drugs, mostly stimulants.
I had very stupid forensic chemists though, they haven't found out a fraction of what I was working on, despite having all my chemicals seized, including various intermediates... but well, I rather traded the possible but useless, even dangerous, "fame" against the lighter sentence

Deathunter88 - 27-11-2020 at 14:25

No shit.

clearly_not_atara - 27-11-2020 at 14:39

Cannabis hasn't been illegal for me to possess since 2014. I actually forget to think about it as illegal these days.

Antigua - 27-11-2020 at 14:42

You're in luck, atara

And deathunter, what do you mean? Karlos is the last person that could be doubted in these matters

aromaticfanatic - 27-11-2020 at 16:38

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Synthetic cannabinoids was a large topic for me back then, yes.
But all sorts of designer drugs, mostly stimulants.
I had very stupid forensic chemists though, they haven't found out a fraction of what I was working on, despite having all my chemicals seized, including various intermediates... but well, I rather traded the possible but useless, even dangerous, "fame" against the lighter sentence

Damn. Interesting. Did you distribute or consume yourself? I mean most people don't just make these for fun lol. Then again this is sciencemadness and we often tell laws to screw off and make stuff anyway just for the synthesis.

By the sounds of it you also have made MDMA. Interesting stuff.

[Edited on 28-11-2020 by aromaticfanatic]

NaK - 28-11-2020 at 04:10

Quote: Originally posted by aromaticfanatic

I mean most people don't just make these for fun lol.

You know the vespiary right? There are quite a few people who just make them for fun

karlos³ - 28-11-2020 at 11:11

I do make them for fun, and almost all of my friends do too.
And those who don't, know that I dislike them making money with this wonderful hobby because it shapes the public opinion on us all.
Like, thinking that most of us do that for money, which is not true.
I never sold anything and never would, I just like drugs, making and taking them.

Tsjerk - 28-11-2020 at 12:30

How did you get caught if you don't mind me asking?

karlos³ - 28-11-2020 at 13:44

I had a person that was supposed to function as receiving adress for my nitroethane orders, and because of the quantities(3x1l only!) they got suspicious.
I knew that seller of nitroethane would report to the cops for every purchase above 1l... but apparently, they also reported for quantities of 1l and not only above.
But the receiver had a clean house, yet still, when the cops showed up(without any warrant, just friendly asking) he spilled the beans because he got totally anxious :/
TL;DR he snitched on me....

That quantity didn't meant much, because a lot of it was wasted on experiments, and a lot of the produced P2NP went into fueling an unhealthy habit.
I got sentenced for 9,6g amphetamine freebase and less than 100mg of norpseudoephedrine freebase(the latter is controlled in my country, unlike norephedrine, of which was 4-5x as much present in that sample).
Both products were made with said nitroethane.

Antigua - 28-11-2020 at 14:06

What was your sentance, if I could ask? And is it common for suppliers (at least in Europe) to report to authorities any amounts of the precursors?

Corrosive Joeseph - 28-11-2020 at 20:52

That is totally strange....

Quote:

EU Category 1 Precursors

ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, norephedrine...

...The stereoisomeric forms of the substances listed in this Category not being cathine, whenever the existence of such forms is possible.

The salts of the substances listed in this Category whenever the existence of such salts is possible and not being the salts of cathine.

/CJ

delta109010 - 29-11-2020 at 03:14

Quote: Originally posted by Antigua

And is it common for suppliers (at least in Europe) to report to authorities any amounts of the precursors?

Suppliers are trying to stay out of trouble, so you can bet your sweet butt that they will report suspicious orders if they deem it necessary. Granted, this will also depend on your location. Some countries officials will expect much more from these companies than others.

I still remember vividly when in 2008 the german webshop Lippert Lehrmittel was raided by the police with questionable legal base, which subsequently lead to over 700 house searches for all kinds of drastic offenses, such as ordering terrible compounds like NaOH, HCl, glass beakers and other atrocities against humankind. Back then, delta was a little hatchling inerested in the energetic site of chemistry and he made some orders with Lippert. So he was shaking in his boots, but luckily he was not located in Germany, so he was not affected.

So, moral of the story, never believe to be completely save of temporary attention of law enforcement just because you didn't order anything super suspicious. Now, if you order actual precursors this risk will of course be exponentially elevated, should you not pose as a company.

mackolol - 29-11-2020 at 03:36

That's why you should buy from Chinese, they don't give a shit what will you use the stuff for

.
They just get your money and you get their product labeled as some harmless thing.

chemship1978 - 29-11-2020 at 04:04

And unluckily pay 200 USD for shipping...

Fyndium - 29-11-2020 at 04:07

Issue with ordering third countries is they go through customs, while EU shipments are screened only in need or random basis.

Sometimes forensic analysis for chemicals mean they do a drug test on them and if they do not show up anything, they discard them or give them back depending on circumstances. I know a case where there was a dozen of seized items described as "white powder" or "yellow liquid" or "brown mass" with notation "test result: negative". They never knew what they were, and did not care. The guy even asked if they could analyze what one powder was because he forgot what it was due to labels missing, but they told him to f* off.

I also'd be interested to hear what sentence you got, karlos³. I would presume that even in the less harsh parts of europe, minor amounts of upper class drugs with notable amounts of precursors would get more than fines.

karlos³ - 29-11-2020 at 07:30

Yeah I remember the case with Lippert Lehrmittel too, and later they've ruined Technikhandel Wendt's existence as well.

I got 3 years on probation for slightly less than what the law considers a large amount of amphetamine freebase.
The money fines hurt though, I had to pay the court session and the work of the forensics.

Antigua - 29-11-2020 at 07:36

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Yeah I remember the case with Lippert Lehrmittel too, and later they've ruined Technikhandel Wendt's existence as well.

I got 3 years on probation for slightly less than what the law considers a large amount of amphetamine freebase.
The money fines hurt though, I had to pay the court session and the work of the forensics.

The one thing I'd best most scared of would be that it's all left one one's CV for the rest of life. Not even the fines or probation, maybe not even a couple of months in jail - being stigmatized by employers not for killing someone, hurting or destroying one's life, but for making yourself some drug that makes you go *bhhawaahh*. Shaking my head, it's annoying. Glad you're with us, carl

Tsjerk - 29-11-2020 at 08:36

Antigua, why would you put a sentence on your CV? Is that a thing?

I don't know how it works in other countries, but here the only thing an employer can ask for is a VOG, a declaration you are fit for a certain profession.
The declaration is given out by the government and whether or not you get it depends on the profession you are applying for.

So you won't get a VOG for driving a taxi if you got caught for drunk driving but you wouldn't have a problem becoming a teacher. When you were convicted for a drug related offense you can't work with minors for five years but driving a taxi wouldn't be problem.
Child abuse would obviously permanently exclude you from working with minors for example.

Antigua - 29-11-2020 at 08:45

I'm aware, what I meant is that many problems emerge (especially with education institutes like colleges or universities). Where I live, some HRs check university workers for being sentenced. I might've exaggerated a bit - I'd just personally suffer a lot from stress in a moment when anyone could percieve me as a criminal.

edit: Also what's this under Tsjerks post?

[Edited on 29-11-2020 by Antigua]

karlos³ - 29-11-2020 at 08:57

You're really showing your age, thats the AOL instant messenger

A thing of the past now.

Texium - 29-11-2020 at 09:36

In the US, pretty much any job application will require the applicant to state if they have ever been convicted of a felony. You’re legally obligated to tell the truth, and it’s just a check box, binary choice, with no room to elaborate that it was only a personal drug offense and you didn’t commit armed robbery or kill anyone. For many applicants, having to check that box is a death sentence for most jobs. You’ll already be weeded out before they bother running a background check on you.

Tsjerk - 29-11-2020 at 11:00

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)

In the US, pretty much any job application will require the applicant to state if they have ever been convicted of a felony.

That sucks! Quite unfair. Sounds counter productive as well, when someone is convicted, they can't get a job and go back into criminality...

Quote: Originally posted by Antigua

edit: Also what's this under Tsjerks post?

[Edited on 29-11-2020 by Antigua]

Ah! So that is what Aim in the profile section is for... I filled out something there long ago to see what it is for. Now I know.

[Edited on 29-11-2020 by Tsjerk]

karlos³ - 29-11-2020 at 11:01

I applied for two jobs after that.
I told them of that in both job interviews, in the one, they didn't took me because of that, and the other in turn took me because of that.
They actually found that interesting.

Antigua - 29-11-2020 at 11:05

Wow, that is unusual. I wonder whether it's anything chemistry related

Texium - 29-11-2020 at 12:05

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)

In the US, pretty much any job application will require the applicant to state if they have ever been convicted of a felony.

That sucks! Quite unfair. Sounds counter productive as well, when someone is convicted, they can't get a job and go back into criminality...

Yes, unfortunately that is a commonly seen pattern here. Many small businesses are more conscientious and forgiving of past indiscretions, so it’s certainly possible to catch a lucky break, but larger companies will often discard any applications from felons unless they are for minimum wage jobs that nobody wants to do.

macckone - 29-11-2020 at 12:26

It goes without saying don't do anything illegal and you have less issues.
Fortunately here they have made marijuana legal.
Possession of small quantities has been a misdemeanor in most of the US for decades but there are places with backwards policies like alabama.
That being said, if you get investigated because of a chemical purchase, you may beat the charge but not the ride.
Ie. you still have to go to jail and get bailed out, you still have to hire a lawyer, you still have to go to court, and if you live in a smaller community the whole town will know your charges even if they are expunged. And it will be expensive and you aren't getting a dime of that money back.

karlos³ - 29-11-2020 at 12:46

Quote: Originally posted by Antigua

Wow, that is unusual. I wonder whether it's anything chemistry related

No, not that much.
It depends on how you've done it.
A friend of mine, sadly deceased now(google Olaf Lichtenberger) actually got a high paying job because of his lab being busted.
His supervisor actually was the great-grandson of one of the inventors of MDMA.
So it really depends.

Antigua - 29-11-2020 at 12:50

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Quote: Originally posted by Antigua

Wow, that is unusual. I wonder whether it's anything chemistry related

Wow, Merck... I wish I could work there in the future. Always admired their ability of milking money out of gov and actually being helpful in some sciences.

zed - 10-4-2021 at 02:45

There seems to be a lack of understanding about this matter. Internationally, regulations may differ, but in the USA Chemical suppliers are REQUIRED to keep records of transactions, especially so, for listed chemicals.

Their Books are generally subjected to periodic LE inspections. AND, they are also required to report suspicious transactions.

Yes, you may buy from the Chinese, they don't report to anyone, and they generally don't care about other country's regulations.

But, your transactions are not invisible. Ebay has records of every purchase you ever made through them, and those records are instantly available to LE, if they inquire. In fact, they may not need to inquire, they may have an open back-door.

Likewise Google, Amazon, etc... The giant on-line corporations, we deal with daily, care only about their own profits; not your privacy.

And, yes... There are "honey-pot" or "sting" operations out there, and some of the LE involved, may be totally unscrupulous.

Be cautious in your undertakings. Different jurisdictions, have slightly different laws, and you should probably know your local regulations. That way, you can avoid creating trouble for yourself.