Sciencemadness Discussion Board

A few exotic compositions

BauArf56 - 18-4-2021 at 07:16

during my attempts of making exotic composition, i noticed that some are very interesting:
Magnesium and sulfur
This one is very powerful, burns very quickly and gives off a yellowish flash and a lot of smoke. I'm not sure if explodes on confinement.

Ferrocerium and sulfur
Powdered ferrocerium can be obtained by scratching carefully a ferrocerium rod. This mix is very easy to ignite and throws sparks literally everywhere.

Potassium bitartrate and magnesium
if an excess of mg is added to potassium bitartrate, blinding purple flames and lots of smoke are produced. This is one of the most beautiful mixtures.

magnesium and sodium bicarbonate
gives yellow flames that are much more blinding than magnesium alone. Very bright.

are there any other interesting mixture like these?

woelen - 18-4-2021 at 09:45

Magnesium with nearly anything, which can be reduced further. Some examples:

Mg + red P --> very violent reaction, formation of magnesum phosphide, which in contact with air will burn up.

Mg + Si --> Gives a violent reaction, producing Mg2Si, which, when added to dilute acid, gives self-igniting SiH4. Safer alternative is Mg + very finely powdered SiO2.

Mg + AgNO3 --> When a small drop of water is added, the mix deflagrates with a bright white flash and small silver droplets are sprayed around. When preparing this mix, be absolutely sure to use perfectly dry reagents and only make small amounts (100 mg at most). Ignite with a small drop of water on a long stick to avoid getting molten silver droplets on your body.

I do not consider these compositions very exotic. In pyrotechnics they are not used, because of their risky nature (can self-ignite).

BauArf56 - 18-4-2021 at 11:07

whoa, interesting mixes! anyway i consider them exotic because i can't find any information on the internet about them. But can you explain why the mg/bitartrate gives such flames? I'm still wondering about that.

[Edited on 18-4-2021 by BauArf56]

woelen - 19-4-2021 at 09:53

Bitartrate contains a lot of oxygen and with red hot finely powdered magnesium metal nearly everything, which contains oxygen can act as an oxidizer. With magnesium such reactions usually are really violent and produce a lot of heat.

Another very nice mix is Mg + finely crushed I2. Mix the chemicals in a perfectly dry state and then add a drop of water. You will see a beautiful purple cloud of iodine vapor when the mix sets off.

https://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/mg+iodine/i...
https://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/AgNO3+Mg/in...

Morgan - 19-4-2021 at 11:22

Magnesium and MgSO4 burns pretty good for something different.

Pyro_cat - 19-4-2021 at 20:17

Thermite was fun. www.amazingrust.com/Experiments/how_to/Thermite.html

BauArf56 - 20-4-2021 at 00:29

thank you all! I want to do mg and i2, but first i have to dry completely my iodine, because i extracted it from the tincture and it's still wet. I didn't know about magnesium sulfate, pretty interesting. Already did a few thermite compositions (Mg/MnO2 and Al/Fe2O3)

BauArf56 - 2-6-2021 at 04:20

new composition: magnesium / alum. Alum has to be dried before, otherwise it will ignite very hardly. Since sulfates are oxidisers at high temps the reaction is very violent, similar to the aluminum / potassium perchlorate flash powder. The residue smells strongly like hydrogen sulfide, so surely sulfides of Al, K and Mg are formed. I believe the reaction is analog to the potassium perchlorate flash powder, in which sulfate gives all its oxygens to magnesium, leaving only sulfur behind, as a sulfide.

I want to try some compositions with teflon too, but i can find only teflon strips, so is there a way to pulverize it?

MineMan - 2-6-2021 at 04:38

Pulverizing plastics is hard. You can buy it in powder easily

Herr Haber - 2-6-2021 at 06:33

If you have dry ice you can pulverize it :)

Be careful though, Mg & Teflon is surprising even when you're expecting a surprise.
Mg & sulfates are used in strobe compositions. In my opinion it is nowhere as violent as flash powder.

burned out

sodium_stearate - 2-6-2021 at 08:29

A few months ago a friend of mine burned his face very badly (lost his sight for several days, his eyes later recovered) using a mixture of sulphur
and zinc dust.

He had moles in his back yard and decided to put this mixture down
one of their holes. He was using a very short firecracker fuse to
light it. It would not light so he kneeled down and tried to light it
with a lighter. It then lit up and being confined in the mole hole, it
wooshed out at him right in his face.

I tend to think that at least a few beers had been consumed ahead of time...

Nitrosio - 2-6-2021 at 09:43

Attachment: Berger4.pdf (424kB)
This file has been downloaded 290 times

Morgan - 2-6-2021 at 16:44

Iodine and ammonium nitrate mixed intimately and then quickly stir in powdered zinc for a beautiful cloud of smoke. If your nitrate is damp quick means quick and don't put your face over the pile. If the ammonium nitrate is very dry, you can light the pile with a flame or few drops of water. The nitrate really adds to the rapidity and mass of violet smoke produced. And to me it's one of the most vivid colors as it billows into the air. It's easy to imagine a genie appearing out of the mist with just a few ounces of iodine.

One time I mixed some in a mortar and pestle and before I could think it when off so fast all at once, hissing and over in 2 seconds.

BauArf56 - 3-6-2021 at 05:50

Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate  
A few months ago a friend of mine burned his face very badly (lost his sight for several days, his eyes later recovered) using a mixture of sulphur
and zinc dust.

He had moles in his back yard and decided to put this mixture down
one of their holes. He was using a very short firecracker fuse to
light it. It would not light so he kneeled down and tried to light it
with a lighter. It then lit up and being confined in the mole hole, it
wooshed out at him right in his face.

I tend to think that at least a few beers had been consumed ahead of time...


well, i think that igniting a such great amount of an confined explosive powder with a lighter is just a lack of sense.

@Morgan: about the iodine cloud, it would be very fun, but obtaining ammonium nitrate in Europe after Beirut is nearly impossible.

BauArf56 - 3-6-2021 at 09:58

lithium and sulfur: i ignited it at a certain distance! i used a little piece of lithium sheet extracted from battery, then i poured some sulfur over it and gently heated. It doesn't ignite readily, but first lithium and sulfur melt, and the reaction starts. Gives a blinding red light and throws a lot of sparks. Then it left behind a molten little ball of lithium sulfide, which on cooling became black. I used a very tiny amount, because i expected how violent would it be.

Linus1208 - 7-6-2021 at 04:28

Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  

Magnesium and sulfur
This one is very powerful, burns very quickly and gives off a yellowish flash and a lot of smoke. I'm not sure if explodes on confinement.


Magnesium and sulfur in a 1:1 ratio is often used as a flashpowder among german amateur pyros, because both of them are easy to get here (even nitrates are heavily restricted in germany) and a few grams of it give quite a good band (doesnt even need much confinement).

If you mix it in a 6:4 ratio it reacts more violent and bright when unconfined, although even the 1:1 ratio has quite an excess of magnesium. Many people think it's also stronger if confined because of that but it's actually just a waste of magnesium.

MineMan - 7-6-2021 at 05:11

There are endless compositions. And it’s funny to try new ones. Very surprising results. Some mixtures of metal powders burn so fast, it seems as if there is an oxidizer when their are none. South Korea was developing activated AlNi warhead casings. It would release energy forming an intermatallic compound and then further oxidizes in the air and on impact. I think it was greater then the about 70kj Al forms.

PTFE comps are the scariest out of all of these, the toxic by products and the vigours burning. But, it’s fun to make carbon nanotubes :)

Morgan - 7-6-2021 at 06:52

@Morgan: about the iodine cloud, it would be very fun, but obtaining ammonium nitrate in Europe after Beirut is nearly impossible. [/rquote]

Probably potassium nitrate would work instead of NH4NO3, Zn, and Iodine and just sugar and KNO3 mixing in some iodine a certain hue of iodine vapor would surely be seen.
If you just react iodine and zinc you don't get the intense burning and excessive smoke.

BauArf56 - 7-6-2021 at 07:32

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
There are endless compositions. And it’s funny to try new ones. Very surprising results. Some mixtures of metal powders burn so fast, it seems as if there is an oxidizer when their are none. South Korea was developing activated AlNi warhead casings. It would release energy forming an intermatallic compound and then further oxidizes in the air and on impact. I think it was greater then the about 70kj Al forms.

PTFE comps are the scariest out of all of these, the toxic by products and the vigours burning. But, it’s fun to make carbon nanotubes :)


very interesting! It could act as a "impact thermite".

Is ptfe really so powerful?! I think that there are much more powerful comps than this, such as potassium persulfate and magnesium. It shouldn't give off too much toxic residues: just magnesium fluoride and carbon dioxide, right? Maybe some fluorinated hydrocarbons? and why carbon nanotubes?

@Morgan: potassium nitrate is easier to find, so i'll probably try, when i'll get it. But if the potassium salt works for this kind of water ignited composition, wouldn't this work for the zinc / ammonium nitrate / ammonium chloride water-ignited composition too? (this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7vXvLvowgI)


[Edited on 7-6-2021 by BauArf56]

Nitrosio - 7-6-2021 at 07:37

NaIO3 + S = Iodine (2:1)
KMnO4 + Zn + S (2:2:1)
KNO3 + K2CO3 + S (5:2:1)

Morgan - 7-6-2021 at 12:19

@Morgan: potassium nitrate is easier to find, so i'll probably try, when i'll get it. But if the potassium salt works for this kind of water ignited composition, wouldn't this work for the zinc / ammonium nitrate / ammonium chloride water-ignited composition too? (this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7vXvLvowgI)

I'm not sure about a spontaneous combustion method water ignition with potassium nitrate substituted for ammonium nitrate in a zinc/iodine mix but it would burn if lit to make a colored smoke. And probably no spontaneity with zinc, KNO3, and NH4Cl. But I wouldn't leave any mix sitting around to be safe.
Zinc and iodine heats up without water if intimately mixed of course but it's slow. Whether hot enough to light a small pile with KNO3 I don't know.
I'd try sugar and KNO3 with iodine because it makes a lot of smoke and zinc as mentioned in the zinc clip just adds more noxiousness.

MineMan - 8-6-2021 at 02:05

Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
There are endless compositions. And it’s funny to try new ones. Very surprising results. Some mixtures of metal powders burn so fast, it seems as if there is an oxidizer when their are none. South Korea was developing activated AlNi warhead casings. It would release energy forming an intermatallic compound and then further oxidizes in the air and on impact. I think it was greater then the about 70kj Al forms.

PTFE comps are the scariest out of all of these, the toxic by products and the vigours burning. But, it’s fun to make carbon nanotubes :)


very interesting! It could act as a "impact thermite".

Is ptfe really so powerful?! I think that there are much more powerful comps than this, such as potassium persulfate and magnesium. It shouldn't give off too much toxic residues: just magnesium fluoride and carbon dioxide, right? Maybe some fluorinated hydrocarbons? and why carbon nanotubes?

@Morgan: potassium nitrate is easier to find, so i'll probably try, when i'll get it. But if the potassium salt works for this kind of water ignited composition, wouldn't this work for the zinc / ammonium nitrate / ammonium chloride water-ignited composition too? (this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7vXvLvowgI)


[Edited on 7-6-2021 by BauArf56]


Yes, gives off carbon nanotubes as the combustion product. A big old cloud of them. You can tell when nanotubes forum, it is a different look than soot, like soot, but almost a gas. Even a cigarette lighter can form nanotubes... put Al foil above it at the right height.

Metal fluorides can be very toxic and cause neurological issues such as aluminum fluorides.

Very powerful. I don’t think persulfates mixtures compare. PTFE is both high density and 76 percent F by weight. PTFE thermites can detonate at 6kms when initiated by a booster. Also... I am reluctant to share this, so I won’t... but PTFE mixed can burn more vigorous and produce higher pressure. They can also be extruded.

BauArf56 - 8-6-2021 at 02:30

so the black stuff formed by holding aluminum foil over a lighter are carbon nanotubes! his is very interesting, i thought it was just soot...

Sure, fluorides are toxic, but i'd be more concerned with sodium fluoride than magnesium fluoride (i was planning to this with mg powder): MgF2 solubility in water is just 0.013 g/100 ml of water! It is even used for lenses. But Al fluoride is surely more toxic

Ok, i'm getting more interested in this, it's more powerful than i thought!

BauArf56 - 8-6-2021 at 03:42

Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  

Magnesium and sulfur
This one is very powerful, burns very quickly and gives off a yellowish flash and a lot of smoke. I'm not sure if explodes on confinement.


Magnesium and sulfur in a 1:1 ratio is often used as a flashpowder among german amateur pyros, because both of them are easy to get here (even nitrates are heavily restricted in germany) and a few grams of it give quite a good band (doesnt even need much confinement).


If you mix it in a 6:4 ratio it reacts more violent and bright when unconfined, although even the 1:1 ratio has quite an excess of magnesium. Many people think it's also stronger if confined because of that but it's actually just a waste of magnesium.


that's the first flash powder i ever made, because both ingredients are easy to find. Magnesium is found as pencil sharpener, so i scratched it until i got enough shaving. Sulfur was sold in a store which sells "natural products" and that kind of stuff. But i still can't make it explode

MineMan - 9-6-2021 at 04:45

Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  
so the black stuff formed by holding aluminum foil over a lighter are carbon nanotubes! his is very interesting, i thought it was just soot...

Sure, fluorides are toxic, but i'd be more concerned with sodium fluoride than magnesium fluoride (i was planning to this with mg powder): MgF2 solubility in water is just 0.013 g/100 ml of water! It is even used for lenses. But Al fluoride is surely more toxic

Ok, i'm getting more interested in this, it's more powerful than i thought!



I think it’s nanotubes. The carbon released from PTFE thermites most definitely is. FEP is melt mixable... but I wouldn’t recommend it. A friend of mine melt mixed FEP and MgAl... the temp store control was shotty and it deflated... if confined it might have been a detonation. Small amounts of PTFE can also increase the heat output of flash powders and thermites. It also reduces the friction sensitivity of such comps.

Linus1208 - 9-6-2021 at 09:55

Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  
Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  

Magnesium and sulfur
This one is very powerful, burns very quickly and gives off a yellowish flash and a lot of smoke. I'm not sure if explodes on confinement.


Magnesium and sulfur in a 1:1 ratio is often used as a flashpowder among german amateur pyros, because both of them are easy to get here (even nitrates are heavily restricted in germany) and a few grams of it give quite a good band (doesnt even need much confinement).


If you mix it in a 6:4 ratio it reacts more violent and bright when unconfined, although even the 1:1 ratio has quite an excess of magnesium. Many people think it's also stronger if confined because of that but it's actually just a waste of magnesium.


that's the first flash powder i ever made, because both ingredients are easy to find. Magnesium is found as pencil sharpener, so i scratched it until i got enough shaving. Sulfur was sold in a store which sells "natural products" and that kind of stuff. But i still can't make it explode


Hmm do you still use pencil sharpener magnesium? And how fine and pure is your sulfur?

BauArf56 - 9-6-2021 at 11:28

Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  
Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  

Magnesium and sulfur
This one is very powerful, burns very quickly and gives off a yellowish flash and a lot of smoke. I'm not sure if explodes on confinement.


Magnesium and sulfur in a 1:1 ratio is often used as a flashpowder among german amateur pyros, because both of them are easy to get here (even nitrates are heavily restricted in germany) and a few grams of it give quite a good band (doesnt even need much confinement).


If you mix it in a 6:4 ratio it reacts more violent and bright when unconfined, although even the 1:1 ratio has quite an excess of magnesium. Many people think it's also stronger if confined because of that but it's actually just a waste of magnesium.


that's the first flash powder i ever made, because both ingredients are easy to find. Magnesium is found as pencil sharpener, so i scratched it until i got enough shaving. Sulfur was sold in a store which sells "natural products" and that kind of stuff. But i still can't make it explode


Hmm do you still use pencil sharpener magnesium? And how fine and pure is your sulfur?


I used them just for the first times i made this mix, but since it's very uncomfortable to scratch a little pencil sharpener with a knife to get a decent amount of powder, i bought from banggood a big magnesium rod, so whenever i need some mg powder i make it by scratching the rod with a Dremel, giving me quite fine powder in a few minute. I avoid buying mg powder because it's not very cheap, so i prefer making it by myself.

Sulfur is very fine, so much that every time i touch the bag some powder stays on my finger and if a blow it much powder is dispersed in air. It seems quite pure too, although it has the typical sulfur smell.

Linus1208 - 9-6-2021 at 12:03

Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  
Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  
Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56  

Magnesium and sulfur
This one is very powerful, burns very quickly and gives off a yellowish flash and a lot of smoke. I'm not sure if explodes on confinement.


Magnesium and sulfur in a 1:1 ratio is often used as a flashpowder among german amateur pyros, because both of them are easy to get here (even nitrates are heavily restricted in germany) and a few grams of it give quite a good band (doesnt even need much confinement).


If you mix it in a 6:4 ratio it reacts more violent and bright when unconfined, although even the 1:1 ratio has quite an excess of magnesium. Many people think it's also stronger if confined because of that but it's actually just a waste of magnesium.


that's the first flash powder i ever made, because both ingredients are easy to find. Magnesium is found as pencil sharpener, so i scratched it until i got enough shaving. Sulfur was sold in a store which sells "natural products" and that kind of stuff. But i still can't make it explode


Hmm do you still use pencil sharpener magnesium? And how fine and pure is your sulfur?


I used them just for the first times i made this mix, but since it's very uncomfortable to scratch a little pencil sharpener with a knife to get a decent amount of powder, i bought from banggood a big magnesium rod, so whenever i need some mg powder i make it by scratching the rod with a Dremel, giving me quite fine powder in a few minute. I avoid buying mg powder because it's not very cheap, so i prefer making it by myself.

Sulfur is very fine, so much that every time i touch the bag some powder stays on my finger and if a blow it much powder is dispersed in air. It seems quite pure too, although it has the typical sulfur smell.


Maybe try slowly grinding the Mg rod very fine sand paper to make your Mg powder. Also pure sulfur actually doesn't really smell (if by smelling you mean this disgusting smell of hydrogen sulfide).