Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Comparison between Keto RDX;RDX;PETN

Petn1933 - 24-5-2021 at 03:07

This test was done by my friend to measure the power of k6 and compare it with RDX and PETN. All 3 samples are pressed by hand in a plastic syringe and the thickness of the iron is 6mm.
As you can see in the picture, the power of keto RDX has been beyond my imagination, at least!


4FE9B098-2E62-4A93-8A4A-51F53A7F3601.jpeg - 147kB 5375DA17-2722-4BCB-9A46-85E6059AF0A7.jpeg - 134kB 3087189A-CED6-4206-B42B-65B7F19CC9E8.jpeg - 273kB B989C951-BEAD-488C-9660-76E19DBE678F.jpeg - 420kB 03FED187-E7D2-44DD-BFE6-1706D3633084.jpeg - 89kB F3353E31-402E-4147-B367-928C504823DF.jpeg - 112kB 1FE28DEE-3110-42DA-89F2-422FB44036C8.jpeg - 131kB

[Edited on 25-5-2021 by Petn1933]

caterpillar - 25-5-2021 at 04:56

the mix of RDX + keto-RDX can be prepared, using urea, hexamine, and mixed acid. it would be interesting to test such a mix and compare it with pure compounds.

MineMan - 25-5-2021 at 22:09

Does literature show reports of higher VOD? Because this looks more then a few hundred m/s. Could it be it’s more sensitive to imitation? This is confusing.

Petn1933 - 25-5-2021 at 23:41

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Does literature show reports of higher VOD? Because this looks more then a few hundred m/s. Could it be it’s more sensitive to imitation? This is confusing.

According to the sources, k6 vod is about 9170m/s which is one particle higher than the maximum vod of hmx. The heat and pressure of the explosion are approximately equal to hmx. Its sensitivity to shock is higher than rdx



[Edited on 26-5-2021 by Petn1933]

[Edited on 26-5-2021 by Petn1933]

63669427-BB63-493B-BE59-7322F6CD3CB2.jpeg - 81kB

[Edited on 26-5-2021 by Petn1933]

MineMan - 26-5-2021 at 00:27

How does a few extra hundred m/s make that big of a difference unless we are very close to the sonic velocity of the steel... which we far exceed??

MineMan - 26-5-2021 at 00:29

Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Does literature show reports of higher VOD? Because this looks more then a few hundred m/s. Could it be it’s more sensitive to imitation? This is confusing.

According to the sources, k6 vod is about 9170m/s which is one particle higher than the maximum vod of hmx. The heat and pressure of the explosion are approximately equal to hmx. Its sensitivity to shock is higher than rdx


Where is that document from. I would like to research those other materials further. 7kj/g wow.

Petn1933 - 26-5-2021 at 03:37

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Does literature show reports of higher VOD? Because this looks more then a few hundred m/s. Could it be it’s more sensitive to imitation? This is confusing.

According to the sources, k6 vod is about 9170m/s which is one particle higher than the maximum vod of hmx. The heat and pressure of the explosion are approximately equal to hmx. Its sensitivity to shock is higher than rdx


Where is that document from. I would like to research those other materials further. 7kj/g wow.

http://www.wydawnictwa.ipo.waw.pl/cejem/Cejem-8-4-2011/Smirn...

Microtek - 1-6-2021 at 01:27

Was the explosives compared based on weight or volume? Equal weight is probably the most obvious, but it is not a trivial choice. At lower charge weights, the detonation will not have time to stabilize, so other effects (such as sensitivity and thickness of the CJ zone) become important. There is also the question of how K-6 responds to pressing. RDX is quite difficult to get to 95% TMD so if K-6 is easier, you will get a higher VOD and Pcj from the sample.

MineMan - 2-6-2021 at 04:05

What is the best procedure for K6? Is it better yields then RDX?

Petn1933 - 2-6-2021 at 04:57

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
What is the best procedure for K6? Is it better yields then RDX?

We used this:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/files.php?pid=656932&...

hdn method

MineMan - 2-6-2021 at 10:21

Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
What is the best procedure for K6? Is it better yields then RDX?

We used this:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/files.php?pid=656932&...

hdn method


Who is we? Is this account used by multiple persons.

Petn1933 - 2-6-2021 at 18:26

We mean, me and my friend. No, this account is for me. He is my colleague and he is not here.:)

underground - 3-6-2021 at 14:01

I was always wondering if K6 can be made without concentrated NA but with just concentrated SA and dry nitrate salt.

MineMan - 27-7-2021 at 05:54

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
I was always wondering if K6 can be made without concentrated NA but with just concentrated SA and dry nitrate salt.



I want to say yes, for the simple fact that I want it to be true!

hissingnoise - 28-7-2021 at 04:41

Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  

As you can see in the picture, the power of keto RDX has been beyond my imagination, at least!

I can also see that the first shot 'shock hardened' the steel, leading to ambiguous results in subsequent firings...



[Edited on 28-7-2021 by hissingnoise]

MineMan - 28-7-2021 at 06:37

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  

As you can see in the picture, the power of keto RDX has been beyond my imagination, at least!

I can also see that the first shot 'shock hardened' the steel, leading to ambiguous results in subsequent firings...

Can you explain more? How much can shock hardening increase hardness. Say if the steel is at 42 Rockwell, can it match regular quenching techniques.


[Edited on 28-7-2021 by hissingnoise]

Fulmen - 29-7-2021 at 01:11

I don't buy that. Any shock hardening should be confined to the contact area. Work hardening would be limited to the deformed area. Multiple charges on the same sample isn't the best science, but I doubt it changed the results significantly in this case. Either way there are so many possible variables here that it's hard to draw any absolute conclusions.

hissingnoise - 30-7-2021 at 03:47

Quote:
Can you explain more?

The effect is well referenced on the 'net, Wikipedia, etc.
Quote:
Either way there are so many possible variables here that it's hard to draw any absolute conclusions.

Well, you got that bit right ─ no, but seriously, the shock-wave will have affected the MS along its entire length, with pronounced effects at the point of contact, obviously.

This paper deals with it in some detail.

The effect, I found, is most easily demonstrated by a potent primary like SA on soft al. sheet.

The hardening produced is really quite surprising...

Fulmen - 30-7-2021 at 10:57

Nice paper, thanks. However, it does not cover edge effects at all (except for avoiding them). I would expect the pressure wave to dissipate almost instantlyfairly quickly to below the needed 130kbars when traveling to the sides. Just look at witness plates, the imprint of the charge can be surprisingly sharp. It's bad (but understandable) methodology for sure, but it would surprise me if that was the biggest culprit at the distances we're dealing with here.

Sadly I don't have any witness plates that I could test...

MineMan - 31-7-2021 at 11:05

I don’t see how this hardening could effect the other holes? Even if hardened, the sonic velocity will not change more than 1-2km/s… therefore these EM would still cut it.

hissingnoise - 1-8-2021 at 05:07

Indeed, you may both be right, but the OP's 'results' look pretty suspiciously over the top ─ we don't know if he used the reaction mixture straight or whether he separated the ketone from the mix, for instance.

If it's the RDX mixture, then no significant difference would likely be apparent...

But to get any meaningful results, he would need to redo the exp. using separate plates and purified K-6.

Fulmen - 1-8-2021 at 10:01

Agreed, something does look off.

MineMan - 2-8-2021 at 07:16

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
Agreed, something does look off.


You can tell each sample is pressed to a different volume, I think this is enough to explain it.