Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Preparation of NaH from sodium metal.

Monoamine - 24-6-2021 at 10:39

(Disclaimer: Elemental Na as well as NaH are highly reactive in air and can spontaneously ignite violently, proper safety procedures are essential when attempting this!))


Sodium hydride (NaH) is a very strong base, which is strong enough to deprotonate alcohols, H20, and even the Indole nitrogen. It can also be used to create other bases such as NaOCH2(CH3), which have as many useful applications.

I hope to be able to try to make it at some point.

The standard procedure for the preparation of NaH (according to Wikipedia) is to react molten Na metal with H2 gas. Na melts at 97.81o)C.

Na is often stored in Kerosine mineral oil (paraffin), which distills at 150oC to 300oC. In other words, the Na should be easily molten when still stored in paraffin.

Once the Na has melted, we can begin pubbling H2 gas through the solution (this is probably the most dangerous step, since H2 is quite flammable). The melting point of NaH is 638oC, so it should precipitate out solution as it is formed. The reaction is continued until no more NaH is formed. The NaH is then stored directly in the paraffin, since this is the safest way of storing it.

As an extra precaution, it may be a good idea to continuously inject N2 gas into the top of the reaction flask to minimize the risk of combustions.

Also, as the reaction produces H+, this will have to be taken care of. This is the part I'm the least sure about... one method would be to simply vent it into the fume hood, or pass it through a water bath, which should drop its pH.

I'd be curious to hear if anyone has any ideas about a good way to get rid of the H+ formed.

Below is the setup that could be used:



NaH.jpg - 6.9MB

karlos³ - 24-6-2021 at 11:22

Quote: Originally posted by Monoamine  
and even the Indole nitrogen.

Uh what?
You can deprotonate the indolic nitrogen even with plain lye if you just use a PTC :o
Is great for the production of N-1 alkylindoles, just melt the indole in lye with a PTC and the alkyl halide, then let it cool down after half an hour and you have an almost quantitative yield of N-alkylindoles.

Bedlasky - 24-6-2021 at 11:37

H+? What H+?

2Na + H2 --> 2NaH

And why do you talk about H+ as it is a gas? H+ practically even don't exist, because it binds to some electron donor.

njl - 24-6-2021 at 13:09

I was more familiar with sodium hydride's deprotonation of the 3 position on indoles. What is it structurally that allows N deprotonation over C deprotonation?

The H+ claim is probably just from not seeing the whole picture. H2 is not split into H+ and H- here as I believe Monoamine is implying. Instead, both hydrogens are reduced with 2 electrons from 2 different sodium atoms.

edit: the exact details of this sort of reaction mechanism is the kind of thing people spend their careers studying so to be clear this is more of a helpful way to think of things and not a completely accurate depiction of reality.

[Edited on 6-24-2021 by njl]

Monoamine - 24-6-2021 at 15:57

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
Quote: Originally posted by Monoamine  
and even the Indole nitrogen.

Uh what?
You can deprotonate the indolic nitrogen even with plain lye if you just use a PTC :o
Is great for the production of N-1 alkylindoles, just melt the indole in lye with a PTC and the alkyl halide, then let it cool down after half an hour and you have an almost quantitative yield of N-alkylindoles.


Good to know. Thanks!

Monoamine - 24-6-2021 at 16:18

Quote: Originally posted by njl  
I was more familiar with sodium hydride's deprotonation of the 3 position on indoles. What is it structurally that allows N deprotonation over C deprotonation?

The H+ claim is probably just from not seeing the whole picture. H2 is not split into H+ and H- here as I believe Monoamine is implying. Instead, both hydrogens are reduced with 2 electrons from 2 different sodium atoms.

edit: the exact details of this sort of reaction mechanism is the kind of thing people spend their careers studying so to be clear this is more of a helpful way to think of things and not a completely accurate depiction of reality.
[Edited on 6-24-2021 by njl]


For the N-deprotonation, I would have thought that since the H on the indole N is in an sp2 orbital rather than a pi orbital it should be more easily deprotonated (I think you don't destroy aromaticity of the indole ring by plucking a proton from the N, since it's the lone pair that's in the pi orbital?)

But you're saying one can deprotonate the 3-proton on indole? I had no clue this was even possible! Very interesting. Now I'm starting to wonder what reaction this could enable.

But indole aside, it would certainly also be useful for deprotonating OH groups and making some nice sterically hindered bases and such

Also thank you for clarifying the proposed mechanism for how NaH is formed! Much appreciated! In that case I guess all you would have to do is vent the N2 and the unreacted H2 out safely somehow. (The H2 to be precise, not so worried about the N2).

[Edited on 25-6-2021 by Monoamine]

rockyit98 - 24-6-2021 at 18:00

Sodium react with hydrogen to produce sodium hydride. This reaction takes place at a temperature near 300 ° C.
needs catalysts. maybe naphthalene.

Monoamine - 24-6-2021 at 19:57

Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
Sodium react with hydrogen to produce sodium hydride. This reaction takes place at a temperature near 300 ° C.
needs catalysts. maybe naphthalene.


Not too familiar with catalysts. Why is naphthalene a catalyst for this reaction?

Btw, I think what you're referring to is this article:

Guntz; Benoit; Bulletin de la Societe Chimique de France; vol. 41; (1927); p. 434 - 434

There they used sodium amide which was heated in a H2 atmosphere until the NaNH2 decomposed, which gave NaH. Unfortunately I can't find the actual paper online, but it seems a little dangerous tbh...

I'm guessing the reaction is NaNH2 + H2 -> NaH + NH3\, so you'll have to drive off the ammonia as it forms (maybe by `crowding it out' by just pumping in H2 continuously. And of course this has to be done in completely anhydrous conditions. So drying tubes on the way in and out are a must. And, you'll probably want a way to pour in paraffin to cover the NaH you made once it's cool enough (but keep the H2 running, or switch to something more inert so no nasty water seeps in....)

I guess you would know the reaction is done once no more NH3 is produced...

But.... it might be doable... if you're careful enough... Probably wanna hide behind a blast shield or something...



NaH_from_NaNH2.jpg - 2.8MB

Keras - 24-6-2021 at 21:28

There’s a chapter about that in the book Small Scale Synthesis of Laboratory Reagents

[Edited on 25-6-2021 by Keras]

zed - 25-6-2021 at 01:02

http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Sodium_hydrid...

Bedlasky - 25-6-2021 at 05:34

Quote: Originally posted by Monoamine  
Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
Sodium react with hydrogen to produce sodium hydride. This reaction takes place at a temperature near 300 ° C.
needs catalysts. maybe naphthalene.


Not too familiar with catalysts. Why is naphthalene a catalyst for this reaction?


Sodium react with naphtalene to form sodium naphtenide, which than react with hydrogen gas to produce NaH.

2Na + 2C10H8 --> 2NaC10H7 + H2

NaC10H7 + H2 --> NaH + C10H8

rockyit98 - 25-6-2021 at 09:27

water free NaOH react with Na metal to form NaH and Na2O but at high pressures .how much idk. might worth checking out.

zed - 25-6-2021 at 16:53

Not the way I would do it. I would prefer to make it by the pound, via a stirred pressure reactor, but...to each his own.

From Len1's book.

6.3 exPerIMental
6.3.1 Sodium hydride
A quartz test tube about 30 mm in diameter and at least 200 mm long is placed inside a sealed tube oven or a circular opening in a box oven, and inclined upwards at 5°–8° to the horizontal. About 3–4 g of sodium metal, which has been shaken under ether to remove the last traces of paraffin, is placed inside a stainless steel tube, closed at one end, and inserted into the quartz reactor. A measured amount of steel wool at the bottom of the quartz test tube is used to adjust the location of the steel tube opening so it lies just inside the oven at the point where a temperature gradient is expected to commence. A side arm on the quartz tube leads to a U-tube containing several sections filled with P2O5 and separated by glass wool. The other end of the U-tube is connected to a hydrogen cylinder through a flow-rate adjusting valve. A long-arm stainless steel spatula (which can be fashioned out of a thin- diameter S/S pipe) is inserted through a seal so that its end lies just outside the zone where NaH is expected to be formed. The spatula runs through a fairly long section of straight tube prior to reaching the active zone in order to minimize the angular movement of the spatula and disturbance to the seal when removing the product. The outlet gases from the reactor are passed through an empty washbottle and an oil bubbler, which both isolates the reactor and serves as an indicator of the pres- sure inside.
The air inside the reactor is purged by opening the hydrogen valve until no oxygen is evident in the outlet gas, and the oven temperature is raised in the range 610°C– 640°C (corresponding to a tube temperature of about 550°C–580°C). Hydrogen absorption commences at about 570°C as evidenced by a slow rise of oil inside the washbottle capillary, and the hydrogen valve is opened so that the level in the capil- lary remains about constant. There is some nonuniformity in hydrogen absorption with time, and the hydrogen feed rate should be adjusted on the high-side, which leads to some loss of hydrogen. Alternatively, a hydrogen balloon can be used.
The sodium hydride starts forming immediately outside the tube opening where the local temperature is below its decomposition temperature at 1 atm hydrogen pressure. Figure 6.2 shows the result after about 20 min of operation. After about 2 h, a wool-like plug of sodium hydride needles completely occupies the temperature region suitable for hydride formation and hydrogen absorption slows. The hydrogen flow rate can be increased at this point to produce positive pressure inside the reac- tor, and the spatula can be inserted into the active region and rotated to remove the plug into the low-temperature region of the reactor where the hydride is stable. This operation is repeated every few hours, resulting in an NaH formation rate of about 0.2–0.3 g/h. When sufficient NaH has formed, the quartz tube is withdrawn from the reactor and allowed to cool to near room temperature. At that point, the hermi- ticity of the apparatus can be broken, and the sodium hydride removed in the open atmosphere. The author has found that no spontaneously ignitable sublimates form in the reaction.
Raising the reactor temperature above about 640°C does not lead to an increased rate of hydride formation; rather, a gray color appears in the product corresponding
© 2011 by Taylor and Francis Group, LLC
78 Small-Scale Synthesis of Laboratory Reagents with Reaction Modeling
to condensed unreacted sodium. Higher temperatures still lead to decomposition of the hydride already formed and its reformation in the section of the reactor, which now has the appropriate temperature. However, the higher evaporation rate also leads to sodium globules forming in the NaH matrix as well as condensation of liq- uid sodium on the walls of the quartz reactor. This is deleterious to the quartz tube because of the danger of liquid sodium flowing into the high temperature region and reducing the quartz in depth. Gaseous sodium on the other hand does not seriously attack quartz, producing just a superficial discoloration, which disappears (due to the silicon being oxidized back to silica) on exposure to air.


LiH is purportedly easier to make?

[Edited on 26-6-2021 by zed]

rockyit98 - 26-6-2021 at 08:50

Thoisoi2 - Chemical Experiments! uploaded: This Chemical is Not from Our Planet! shows how dangerous NaH is

BromicAcid - 26-6-2021 at 12:20

When running a Castner Cell, NaH starts to form in the melt if the temp is too high.

Monoamine - 26-6-2021 at 12:35

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
Quote: Originally posted by Monoamine  
Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
Sodium react with hydrogen to produce sodium hydride. This reaction takes place at a temperature near 300 ° C.
needs catalysts. maybe naphthalene.


Not too familiar with catalysts. Why is naphthalene a catalyst for this reaction?


Sodium react with naphtalene to form sodium naphtenide, which than react with hydrogen gas to produce NaH.

2Na + 2C10H8 --> 2NaC10H7 + H2

NaC10H7 + H2 --> NaH + C10H8


Interesting! Thank's for sharing! So this should even be doable at 97.81oC (the melting point of Na)?
One question though: Once all the Na has reacted, there would still be the C10H8 catalyst left, right? I would guess that it's soluble in paraffin oil, but does simply keeping it in there pose a problem or would you have to try to remove it somehow?

Monoamine - 26-6-2021 at 12:45

Quote: Originally posted by Keras  
There’s a chapter about that in the book Small Scale Synthesis of Laboratory Reagents

[Edited on 25-6-2021 by Keras]


Thanks for the reference! I'll check out the PDF; always eager to learn!

S.C. Wack - 26-6-2021 at 12:48

Read the literature, room temp in this case US3617218 and the JACS article from the same authors...

Brauer, Inorg Syn...

Monoamine - 27-6-2021 at 09:51

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
Read the literature, room temp in this case US3617218 and the JACS article from the same authors...

Brauer, Inorg Syn...


Well that does seem safer... but you probably still want to melt the Na first to make it into as tiny pebbles as possible to maximize surface area, otherwise I'd imagine the reaction will take pretty long to finish.

symboom - 27-6-2021 at 18:32

How about this post on sodium metal on silica gel as a catalyst. This may help the absorbing of hydrogen gas. I've read somewhere that someone used titanium powder to help it absorb the gas.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14626

[Edited on 28-6-2021 by symboom]

draculic acid69 - 28-6-2021 at 02:22

Quote: Originally posted by zed  


LiH is purportedly easier to make?

[Edited on 26-6-2021 by zed]


I think that Li reacts with the H2 around 60'c which is a bit easier than
molten metals.

[Edited on 28-6-2021 by draculic acid69]

draculic acid69 - 28-6-2021 at 03:58

Quote: Originally posted by Monoamine  


I'd be curious to hear if anyone has any ideas about a good way to get rid of the H+ formed.



Put a 1way check valve on your output hose and vent into a candle to burn it off
Bubbling thru water won't do anything at all

[Edited on 28-6-2021 by draculic acid69]

cirice1 - 28-6-2021 at 08:23

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01026a057
https://sci-hub.se/10.1055/sos-SD-008-00607

wg48temp9 - 28-6-2021 at 12:44

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69  
Quote: Originally posted by Monoamine  


I'd be curious to hear if anyone has any ideas about a good way to get rid of the H+ formed.



Put a 1way check valve on your output hose and vent into a candle to burn it off
Bubbling thru water won't do anything at all

[Edited on 28-6-2021 by draculic acid69]


Just in case the above is serious: to separate even a ug of H+ ions from their electrons for any significant distance (say 100mm) would require hundreds of kj of energy and require overcoming huge forces. The voltage between the H+ ions and its electrons or ground would be millions of volts.

So its impossible to collect any significant mass of H+. If any H+ ions were formed in a reaction mixtures they would remain in the reaction mixture to be near their electrons.

S.C. Wack - 28-6-2021 at 13:46

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69  
I think that Li reacts with the H2 around 60'c which is a bit easier than molten metals.


500

The easiest route to hydrides (not in the literature as a preparative method AFAIK) is by heating RM (R2M or RMX for Mg, etc) in oil.

[Edited on 28-6-2021 by S.C. Wack]

draculic acid69 - 29-6-2021 at 00:44

What is RM R2M RMX?

cirice1 - 29-6-2021 at 02:41

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69  
What is RM R2M RMX?

R - a carbon chain
M - metal
X - a halogen

S.C. Wack - 29-6-2021 at 14:16

It's a sign that beta-hydride elimination is a deep organometallic rabbit hole.

njl - 30-6-2021 at 04:49

Might the same concept apply to more easily obtained alkoxides? Equivalent beta elimination would give a carbonyl and hydride, right?

Jenks - 30-6-2021 at 07:54

Quote: Originally posted by njl  
Might the same concept apply to more easily obtained alkoxides? Equivalent beta elimination would give a carbonyl and hydride, right?

It would give a hydroxide and an alkene if it happened the same way.

[Edited on 30-6-2021 by Jenks]

njl - 30-6-2021 at 12:55

No, elimination of a beta hydrogen + electron from an alkoxide would give a carbonyl and hydride, elimination of hydroxide from an alkoxide is different and would give the alkene. I'm asking if beta hydride elimination with alkoxides is a viable path for hydrides ie elimination of hydride from methoxide to give formaldehyde.

Panache - 22-7-2021 at 17:59

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69  
I think that Li reacts with the H2 around 60'c which is a bit easier than molten metals.


500

The easiest route to hydrides (not in the literature as a preparative method AFAIK) is by heating RM (R2M or RMX for Mg, etc) in oil.

[Edited on 28-6-2021 by S.C. Wack]


You can't stop there, especially when youve said the method cant be found in the lit (and this from the lit guru, one is inclined to believe you)
So dont be coy, time for shyness is over, off with your pants, what do you know, is it a huge one you are hiding, i dare say it is, as rm, rmgx's are a bit of a no brainer to make

Sorry if the sexual reference offends any....

Panache - 22-7-2021 at 18:05

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
It's a sign that beta-hydride elimination is a deep organometallic rabbit hole.


oh and then this.....haha

here ill make it easy

Mr Wack
+ =============>>>Please Feed Us
Spoon

S.C. Wack - 23-7-2021 at 16:07

It would be one of those reactions listed under formation (Bildung) rather than preparation (Darstellung), if it's listed anywhere at all. Yes, many organometallics are easy to make if the perfectly inert environment is provided for, and easy to decompose with enough heat (let's say 150-200C), this is what I know.

This elimination has been a noted reaction of all kinds of expensive organometallics when people are trying to make something else with maybe a little too much heat. No clue of the yield or purity of any hydride (when a metal hydride is formed) from the process, because AFAIK the hydride is completely ignored because no one cares, except maybe for noting that something found to be the hydride was identified. This is going back to at least 190-something (for Mg), if not earlier.

S.C. Wack - 24-7-2021 at 21:57

Quote: Originally posted by Panache  
(and this from the lit guru, one is inclined to believe you)


I've read very little of the organometallic original literature (none at all in German or French) however, and am as infallible as Catch-22's protagonist: ‘You’re going to be all right, kid,’ Yossarian assured him, patting his arm comfortingly. ‘Everything’s under control.’ Snowden shook his head feebly. ‘I’m cold,’ he repeated, with eyes as dull and blind as stone. ‘I’m cold.’
‘There, there,’ said Yossarian, with growing doubt and trepidation.


...but I'm good at quoting fiction. There's no doubt that hydrides can be formed in this way, but whether they should is unclear.

A brief search gave an example where the yield of metal cpd. is given. It's 95% but unfortunately there's no beta carbon, much less hydrogen, and thus no hydride. Heating methyllithium to 225C, etc., gives CH2Li2 and methane. If they still had Star Trek conventions, one could make an impression, and get the bomb squad called and venue evacuated, with (amorphous) (methylene)dilithium "crystals".

S.C. Wack - 10-8-2021 at 14:50

With the more reactive metals, hydrides can be made without heat from RM and H, easily, sometimes, says JACS 60, 2336 (1938). This works with sodium but is better with the heavier alkalis. BTW previous articles from that year are interesting...at p. 1019 (EtMgBr, vacuum, 220C, using the residue to reduce benzophenone) and p. 2333, where phenyllithium is added to slightly hydrogenated rings and refluxed in ether, producing the aromatic and LiH.

JohnnyBuckminster - 11-8-2021 at 00:09

Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
Thoisoi2 - Chemical Experiments! uploaded: This Chemical is Not from Our Planet! shows how dangerous NaH is


Demonstration of NaH starts at 08.40,

https://youtu.be/4EkbcBJnJk4?t=520

Monoamine - 2-10-2021 at 18:57

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
Quote: Originally posted by Monoamine  
Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
Sodium react with hydrogen to produce sodium hydride. This reaction takes place at a temperature near 300 ° C.
needs catalysts. maybe naphthalene.


Not too familiar with catalysts. Why is naphthalene a catalyst for this reaction?


Sodium react with naphtalene to form sodium naphtenide, which than react with hydrogen gas to produce NaH.

2Na + 2C10H8 --> 2NaC10H7 + H2

NaC10H7 + H2 --> NaH + C10H8


Thank you again for this suggestion. I ran quite a few experiments (sadly without success) but I think I still learned a bit about this whole approach.
First off, to form the salt NaC10H7 the choice of solvent is very important. I tried hexane and paraffin (C16-C18 alkanes according to the MSDS), but the salt barely forms in them, although it may form very very slowly in the paraffin when heated so that the Na melts.
NaC10H7 does however form very well in tetrahydrofuran (THF). The problem with THF, however, is that there seem to be quite a few side reactions and after running the reaction for a few hours you are left with a brown/black goop which seems to react with water.

In either case, if the reaction NaC10H7 + H2 --> NaH + C10H8 proceeds at all, it does so very very slowly.

In an attempt to get some results I also tried adding a 10% Pd/C catalyst (in the hopes that this might help the H2 react with the salt). It's possible that this does slightly work, but the problem here is that the Pd/C seems to react with the Na in THF (at room temperature). It also seems to react with the Na in paraffin, but only at around 80-100oC.

Another issue I realized is that since naphthalene sublimes at around 80oC, it will actually sublime out of solution when you heat the paraffin to that temperature. This is a bit of a catch-22, since the only time I thought I got the reaction to slightly work was when I heated the Na with naphthalene and Pd/C catalyst above the melting point of sodium (around 97.8oC). On the other hand this could also be used as a purification strategy to remove the naphthalene if the reaction is ever successful.

The last thing I tried was just adding a molar equivalent of naphthalene rather than treat it as a true catalyst (since mothballs aren't too pricey), but it seems that if you add that much then the Na just destroys the paraffin and you end up with brown goop.

Am I just doing this completely wrong? At this point I just want to see if this can work...

[Edited on 3-10-2021 by Monoamine]

Monoamine - 2-10-2021 at 19:04

Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
Sodium react with hydrogen to produce sodium hydride. This reaction takes place at a temperature near 300 ° C.
needs catalysts. maybe naphthalene.


Might work under some conditions, but one problem is that naphthalene sublimes out of solution at around 80oC

Just for fun

Monoamine - 2-10-2021 at 19:46

All this talk about beta-eliminations made me drop a small piece of Na into EtBr and cover it with paraffin. Look's like the Na is floating in the middle right? It's suspended between a layer of paraffin (top) and a layer of EtBr (bottom) (and slowly reacting with the EtBr, but I don't see a precipitate, only bubbles probably ethene (so then where's the NaH or the NaBr??)



EtBr_Na_Paraffin.jpg - 4.6MB

[Edited on 3-10-2021 by Monoamine]

[Edited on 3-10-2021 by Monoamine]

S.C. Wack - 2-10-2021 at 21:13

Sodium is melted and shaken in xylene if one wants reactive sodium. But the reaction in this case would be at best the Wurtz, and if ethylsodium was made it would react with the halide, to make not-ethylsodium...which explains why someone might want or make an amount of alkylmercury...just for fun.

walruslover69 - 3-10-2021 at 08:04

Monoamine - is it possible that the brown/black goop formed during the reaction in THF could be due to some impurities? I also found this paper that preformed the synthesis in THF, Dimethyl ether and Glyme/DME. For some reason the reactions doesn't work in diethyl ether.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/ja01303a022

I suspect that diglyme might work as a higher boiling point solvent. If so It might be possible to form the sodium naphthalene in diglyme stoichiometrically, Then bubble hydrogen to precipitate out NaH.

With Na + Pd/C + NaC10H7 + H2 would this not preferentially hydrogenate naphthalene to tetralin, killing it as a catalyst?

[Edited on 3-10-2021 by walruslover69]

Monoamine - 3-10-2021 at 20:57

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
Sodium is melted and shaken in xylene if one wants reactive sodium. But the reaction in this case would be at best the Wurtz, and if ethylsodium was made it would react with the halide, to make not-ethylsodium...which explains why someone might want or make an amount of alkylmercury...just for fun.


Oh I didn't know that. Thanks! I haven't tried any aromatic solvent yet but I might give that a shot. I wonder if toluene might also work (I don't think at these temperature we have to worry about a Birch reduction). If the reaction is refluxed it might also help to solve the naphthalene sublimation issue, since some of the crystals could be washed back into solution by the condensing toluene vapours (maybe...).

Monoamine - 3-10-2021 at 21:16

Quote: Originally posted by walruslover69  
Monoamine - is it possible that the brown/black goop formed during the reaction in THF could be due to some impurities? I also found this paper that preformed the synthesis in THF, Dimethyl ether and Glyme/DME. For some reason the reactions doesn't work in diethyl ether.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/ja01303a022

I suspect that diglyme might work as a higher boiling point solvent. If so It might be possible to form the sodium naphthalene in diglyme stoichiometrically, Then bubble hydrogen to precipitate out NaH.

With Na + Pd/C + NaC10H7 + H2 would this not preferentially hydrogenate naphthalene to tetralin, killing it as a catalyst?

[Edited on 3-10-2021 by walruslover69]


Neat idea, in that case I'll look into diglyme. Could be interesting to try to make it. Also thanks for the thought about hydrogenating naphthalene with the Pd/C catalyst, this probably did happen to some extent and would explain why there was at most a very short window in which it worked, because the catalysts were probably destroyed soon after.

In terms of impurities, this is of course possible, but the only sources would be the naphthalene, which I got from mothballs, but I played around with subliming it a bit, and it sublimed and crystalized cleanly so I think the mothballs were pure naphthalene- or from the Pd/C catalyst. On the other hand, the brown goop did form in the THF both with Pd/C and without. With Pd/C after a few hours, without Pd/C after a few days.

Keras - 4-10-2021 at 04:57

I reproduce here the relevant section of the book Small Scale Synthesis of Laboratory Reagents pp. 77-78.

Quote:

A quartz test tube about 30 mm in diameter and at least 200 mm long is placed inside a sealed tube oven or a circular opening in a box oven, and inclined upwards at 5°–8° to the horizontal. About 3–4 g of sodium metal, which has been shaken under ether to remove the last traces of paraffin, is placed inside a stainless steel tube, closed at one end, and inserted into the quartz reactor. A measured amount of steel wool at the bottom of the quartz test tube is used to adjust the location of the steel tube opening so it lies just inside the oven at the point where a temperature gradient is expected to commence. A side arm on the quartz tube leads to a U-tube containing several sections filled with P2O5 and separated by glass wool. The other end of the U-tube is connected to a hydrogen cylinder through a flow-rate adjusting valve. A long-arm stainless steel spatula (which can be fashioned out of a thin- diameter S/S pipe) is inserted through a seal so that its end lies just outside the zone where NaH is expected to be formed. The spatula runs through a fairly long section of straight tube prior to reaching the active zone in order to minimize the angular movement of the spatula and disturbance to the seal when removing the product. The outlet gases from the reactor are passed through an empty washbottle and an oil bubbler, which both isolates the reactor and serves as an indicator of the pressure inside.

The air inside the reactor is purged by opening the hydrogen valve until no oxygen is evident in the outlet gas, and the oven temperature is raised in the range 610°C– 640°C (corresponding to a tube temperature of about 550°C–580°C). Hydrogen absorption commences at about 570°C as evidenced by a slow rise of oil inside the washbottle capillary, and the hydrogen valve is opened so that the level in the capil- lary remains about constant. There is some nonuniformity in hydrogen absorption with time, and the hydrogen feed rate should be adjusted on the high-side, which leads to some loss of hydrogen. Alternatively, a hydrogen balloon can be used.

The sodium hydride starts forming immediately outside the tube opening where the local temperature is below its decomposition temperature at 1 atm hydrogen pressure. Figure 6.2 shows the result after about 20 min of operation. After about 2 h, a wool-like plug of sodium hydride needles completely occupies the temperature region suitable for hydride formation and hydrogen absorption slows. The hydrogen flow rate can be increased at this point to produce positive pressure inside the reac- tor, and the spatula can be inserted into the active region and rotated to remove the plug into the low-temperature region of the reactor where the hydride is stable. This operation is repeated every few hours, resulting in an NaH formation rate of about 0.2–0.3 g/h. When sufficient NaH has formed, the quartz tube is withdrawn from the reactor and allowed to cool to near room temperature. At that point, the hermi- ticity of the apparatus can be broken, and the sodium hydride removed in the open atmosphere. The author has found that no spontaneously ignitable sublimates form in the reaction.

Raising the reactor temperature above about 640°C does not lead to an increased rate of hydride formation; rather, a gray color appears in the product corresponding to condensed unreacted sodium. Higher temperatures still lead to decomposition of the hydride already formed and its reformation in the section of the reactor, which now has the appropriate temperature. However, the higher evaporation rate also leads to sodium globules forming in the NaH matrix as well as condensation of liquid sodium on the walls of the quartz reactor. This is deleterious to the quartz tube because of the danger of liquid sodium flowing into the high temperature region and reducing the quartz in depth. Gaseous sodium on the other hand does not seriously attack quartz, producing just a superficial discoloration, which disappears (due to the silicon being oxidized back to silica) on exposure to air.

S.C. Wack - 4-10-2021 at 16:06

Quote: Originally posted by Monoamine  
a brown/black goop which seems to react with water.


BTW phenylsodium is black. The not particularly convenient reference for naphthalene, Na, and H is US2073973...the active product is described as a black mixture of hydride and "hydrocarbide" which could be used to produce more tetralin from additional naphthalene and hydrogen. US2372671 says that said catalyst can be ball-milled with Na and H at >300C for NaH, which doesn't make much sense, given that US2372670 and US1796265 use the same apparatus and simpler substances such as just about any inert solid.

Quote: Originally posted by Monoamine  
Oh I didn't know that.


Both subjects are described in Vogel.

Quote: Originally posted by Keras  
I reproduce here the relevant section of the book Small Scale Synthesis of Laboratory Reagents pp. 77-78.


It's not clear if len1 investigated any "surface active agents" with wet NaH synthesis as cited at the bottom of page 72, including oleic acid.

Keras - 5-10-2021 at 06:55

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  

Quote: Originally posted by Keras  
I reproduce here the relevant section of the book Small Scale Synthesis of Laboratory Reagents pp. 77-78.


It's not clear if len1 investigated any "surface active agents" with wet NaH synthesis as cited at the bottom of page 72, including oleic acid.


I have no idea. I find disappointing that this book had no second, expanded edition. It's a good book, overall.

clearly_not_atara - 5-10-2021 at 08:24

In the case of ethyllithium its thermal decomposition to the hydride is indeed discussed in the literature, as it is also the discovery of the basic catalysis of ethylene polymerization, by one Ziegler whom you may have heard of (cf. "Ziegler-Natta catalyst"):

Quote:
The discovery of the hydroalumination reaction by Ziegler and Gellert in 1949 was the culmination of a series of experiments on the thermal stability of metal alkyls begun by Karl Ziegler in the early 1930s.7 During an attempt to distill ethyllithium, Ziegler found that the compound decomposed over 100 °C into ethylene and lithium hydride; the ethylene reacted, in steps, with the ethyllithium to give higher n–al– kyllithiums and these, in turn, eliminated lithium hydride to produce a mixture of higher α–alkenes (Scheme 1).8


Comprehensive Organic Synthesis, J.J. Eisch, 1991. IIRC a temperature of 120 C is recommended for this transformation. The generation of polymers might lead to foaming, although papers do not describe foaming.

Isopropyllithium appears to decompose a little more easily and for steric reasons should be a less avid polymer former. See particularly:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jo01346a044

I don't know about the alkylsodiums -- these are difficult to prepare due to the competing Wurtz coupling, IIRC.