Sciencemadness Discussion Board

How can I acquire a business address?

SHADYCHASE54 - 15-3-2011 at 00:14

Hello all, I have a problem regarding the recieving of chemicals from one of my suppliers. I have recently lost acess to one of my bigger suppliers because they are requiring me to provide a shipping adress that is listed as business. Has anyone any suggestions on a cost effective way of obtaining this? I don't have any issue spending some money monthly but I am looking for somthing that won't totally break the bank. Storage isn't a must have but shipping and recieving would be. Anyone in digital land that has a potential solution for this or experience around this problem I would love to hear from you. Thanks in advance.

SHADYCHASE54

[madscientist: Please don't title threads in all caps!]

[Edited on 15-3-2011 by madscientist]

ScienceSquirrel - 15-3-2011 at 03:53

I just made one up;

Science Squirrel
Unit 1
Woodland Farm
Oak Road

watson.fawkes - 15-3-2011 at 04:26

The easiest way to have a business address is to rent one, which in many cases can be as simple as renting a private mail box from a mailing service, because those addresses are pretty much always commercial addresses.

Contrabasso - 15-3-2011 at 05:01

Come to an arrangement with a local shopkeeper with a suitable trade. "Rent" mailbox and parcel reception from them. Pick a place where the supplies you want are credible. Where do you work? Can you get the storekeeper to receive parcels for you?

My work receive things for me, but parcels with diamonds (usually 1.4G!) go elsewhere.

MrHomeScientist - 15-3-2011 at 07:05

I've got the same problem. I was going to form an LLC company for chemical ordering, but I've called GFS Chemicals and they have said they still will not ship to a residential address (which would be the physical location of my LLC). I thought of renting a PO box for it, but they won't ship to that either. I don't know much about the process of starting an LLC, any advice on if I can register some sort of business address for it?

@watson.fawkes: Could you elaborate on what you mean? Who rents out "private mail boxes"?

(PS: I'm in the US, btw)

mr.crow - 15-3-2011 at 08:24

You could rent one of those turn-key office solutions where you get a cheesy little room in a commercial/industrial area. Just camp out there until the delivery van arrives. Might have to sign the lease for a period of time, going to cost a lot of money.

Nilson - 15-3-2011 at 08:39

For those in the US: UPS (United Parcel Service) stores rent mailboxes on a daily, weekly, monthly, or yearly basis, for reasonable prices.

You can get anything you want shipped there, and their address is a commercial address. You get a key to a mailbox, you use said key to get your paper mail/small packages out of the mailbox. If you get a larger sized package sent there, they sign for it, and you pick it up.

That way you have a store attendant always there to sign for your package, you don't have to "camp out" anywhere.

All you need is two forms of ID and a way to pay for the mailbox service.

SHADYCHASE54 - 15-3-2011 at 09:47

I just want to start off by appologizing to moderator(s) for posting my title in caps.

That aside thank you to everyone lots of great ideas you have provided me with a couple good options to consider. Special thanks to watson.fawkes, Mr.crow and Nilson your suggestions were particularily invaluable. Regarding mr.crow's suggestion, I would love one of those small office space places both for recieving but especially for storage. I wonder how much those type of places would set one back as compared to leasing a store front space. obviously I realize it all depends on the rental prices in a particular city but what are they like a couple hundred bucks monthly as compared to a thousand + for a real space if anyone knows? If this isn't an option due to being too costly I think I'll check out renting a box from UPS them signing for my package would truly be great.

Contrabasso - 15-3-2011 at 11:28

Most times chem suppliers are wise to fiddles, and know the usual uses for whatever you buy from them.

Their usual real questions are based on "who buys your product?". That's often the hard one to answer.

cyanureeves - 15-3-2011 at 11:29

some flea markets will charge for displaying a sale booth. i was going to use one of those addresses to acquire a rapid fire- sound suppressor liscence as one has to furnish a business address for a dealer liscence. a co-worker was already doing that and only had two knives and one or two rifles at the booth, anybody who wanted something could just bring a picture of any weapon and he could just order it at wholesale price.

MrHomeScientist - 15-3-2011 at 13:22

Getting a mailbox with the local UPS store was a great idea and looks like it will work, so far. It's different from a PO box in that you get a street address to ship to, which can be considered a business address. It's pretty reasonable at $11/mo for the yearly rate. I may just do that regardless, as I'm rarely home to sign for packages anyways.

@Contrabasso: Couldn't that question legitimately be answered by "nobody"? If you claim it's only going to be used for internal research purposes, then you won't be selling it to anyone. That was going to be my aim for my LLC - set it up as some variation of a "research institution."

Contrabasso - 15-3-2011 at 15:04

If you produce no product for sale then you still have to have some justification for the spend. Businesses need income and expenditure and chem suppliers may want to see some evidence of business rather than hobby.

Remember that Hobby is a retail sale with all the obligations that puts on the vendor. Business means a trade sale and a lot of regs are easier on the vendor. If you can't convince the vendor that you are trade it doesn't matter what premises you have.

watson.fawkes - 15-3-2011 at 20:44

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
@Contrabasso: Couldn't that question legitimately be answered by "nobody"? If you claim it's only going to be used for internal research purposes, then you won't be selling it to anyone. That was going to be my aim for my LLC - set it up as some variation of a "research institution."
The magic phrase here is "Contract Research Organization"; it's a term of art. It's used a lot in pharmaceuticals, but also for university-affiliated research labs. The customer of a CRO is typically some technology-oriented company that needs independent verification or requires some special expertise.
Quote: Originally posted by Contrabasso  
If you produce no product for sale then you still have to have some justification for the spend. Businesses need income and expenditure and chem suppliers may want to see some evidence of business rather than hobby.
The point here is that a business need not be manufacturing products for sale to end users in order to be a valid business.

Contrabasso - 15-3-2011 at 23:47

As a production lab then your business justification is chemical product going out and invoices being paid in. -Business model

As a Research house your output product is in report or thesis form which usually gets paid for by the receiving house. Business model

If you have no obvious output and cash inflow the assumption will be that you are either a hobby or a drug maker.

a website and email addresses

antibody - 16-3-2011 at 05:51

A website for your "research company" and email addresses that are consistent with the business name and web domain can also go a long way in positioning you as a legitimate business.

Once, after ordering a sample from a supplier, they got back to me for clarification on how the product was being used. During our conversation it came up that the rep had already scoured our website looking for information about our operation. We passed the test and now enjoy a great relationship with this suppllier.

I don't know how common a practice this is, but we are living in the information age and it isn't difficult for suppliers to connect the dots.

ketadd - 17-3-2011 at 13:08

UPS store mailboxe is a good start. You can also use companies like Vitran and they will hold things for delivery. Works well for larger orders since some UPS store owners can get snoopy and do not like chemical deliveries. Some couldn't careless but others will create problems for you. When using these COD shipping places like Vitran which are more equipped to receive hazardous items, use the UPS store mailboxe as your company address. This is the best way to go, in my experience.

The responses here are really ignorant

franklyn - 17-3-2011 at 13:46


It is immediately obvious to any firm supplying chemicals
that you are not a business you claim to be when you do
not inquire about establishing an account and discuss with
them credit and payment terms and conditions. Name me
one business that operates without a credit rating.

You M U S T obtain a federal tax identification number
for commercial enterprise from the Internal Revenue Service.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1635.pdf
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98350,00.h...
In commerce this is the same as providing your Social
Security number to a bank when opening a savings or
checking account.
See how far you'll get without providing it.


I am not an MBA don't ask me for clarification , consult
the Small Business Administration _
http://www.sba.gov/category/navigation-structure/starting-ma...
and the Internal Revenue Service _
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99336,00.h...
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4591.pdf

.

antibody - 17-3-2011 at 18:47

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  

You M U S T obtain a federal tax identification number
for commercial enterprise from the Internal Revenue Service.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1635.pdf
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98350,00.h...
In commerce this is the same as providing your Social
Security number to a bank when opening a savings or
checking account.
See how far you'll get without providing it.


FYI Frankyn - In Canada you only need a federal tax number to charge taxes, not to pay them. Taxes that are paid on business purchases are deducted from the remittance of taxes that have been collected . . . in most provinces anyways. The only place a business would ever use that number is on an invoice or a tax remittance. Never to a supplier.

Not every member of this board is an American!

franklyn - 18-3-2011 at 12:11

- Oops ! - I didn't see that , in any case you are right ,
not everyone here is in the states. Advice then may
have limited particular use anyway given the regional
circumstances. As I understand it now , the problem
is American sources imposing the same onerous
domestic requirments on foreign buyers.

Watch the newspaper for businesses that have gone
out of business. These are usually advertised as
auctioning off the contents of the premises. The
business is established and will still be listed as such.
Visit the site and obtain stationary for an invoice then
impersonate that business name to establish accounts.
Direct that goods will be received during the
" transition to the new facility" at your " business
office " which you represent as a commercial address.
Once you have established yourself in this way
subsequent purchases should proceed automatically
without further revision.

.

quicksilver - 18-3-2011 at 12:32

I would like to offer a bit of advice here. Unless you really DO have a legit company; this COULD be a very bad mistake. Even IF you have a legit company, ordering certain materials can get you on someone’s radar faster than many would believe.
[Whether you live in most any country,] ordering chemicals through subterfuge is a risky proposition & in the case of chemicals that track to a given end, you can quickly wind up with a quiet investigation from your country’s law enforcement elements. The employees at chemical firms are not idiots. The concept of a “paper company” is as old as the hills and generally is standard procedure in many a drug cook’s agenda. There are very legitimate means to acquire chemicals and there are means to stay within the law by understanding rocketry or pyrotechnic clubs, student chemistry and science clubs and related organizations as well as knowing the law. Pretending to be something that you are not is a great way to put yourself in a bad position even if what you are doing is perfectly innocent! Please think this through before doing something that makes you “look bad”….There is NO reason to put yourself in that position. We are living in an age when suspicion is rampant and can be ugly.


Frankly I know of a VERY legit company, the owner of which, once told me something that steered me away from this issue.
What's more this is a public forum & read by hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world. Many of them are in the business of identifying drug cooks, etc.
Please think this through very carefully & realize that most anything you may want to experiment with (within the law) is available without getting yourself on someone's radar!
IF your agenda is to get into something that skirts the law; discussing it on a public forum is not the best idea & perhaps you may want to take a moment to think it through to the end.

Several of you know me well enough to PM me if you would like to discuss this issue further. As I believe strongly in this regard I welcome a discussion - however I don't believe that a public arena is the place to further elaborate why this issue in general is not in your best interest and for that matter; the interest of amateur or hobby chemistry. Obviously, this is simply my opinion & certainly not a case of chastisement.

Edit: Obviously you don't need to take my advice. However if you think this through deeply enough, you may realize that we live in an age where suspicion is trouble. Perhaps a milder level but why risk something of this nature for a hobby?




[Edited on 19-3-2011 by quicksilver]

Polverone - 18-3-2011 at 18:17

I have never tried to order controlled chemicals from a supplier that deals only with businesses. I do not know if that is what you are trying to do. I do know that some suppliers don't want to sell so much as litmus paper to individuals, so there are certainly non-nefarious reasons you may need a minimal business proxy.

I don't know if franklyn's advice about imitating defunct companies will work, but if you are ordering chemicals that aren't heavily scrutinized it seems both unnecessary and potentially trust-destroying to perform such a charade. A few years ago I wanted to order a variety of chemicals from Croda. They wouldn't deal with an individual, even though the chemicals were all non-controlled and non-hazardous. After I established a business I was fine, even though the sales rep knew I had already tried to order as an individual. They were just following a checklist.

SHADYCHASE54 - 18-3-2011 at 21:35

I find it interesting how far this topic has expanded since posting it. When I offered this question up for public scrutiny I never imagined it would take on such personality with such a potentially sinister undertone, although on further contimplation, I guess I should of. All of this merely started from the fact that one of my main suppliers stopped allowing me to order; all due to some clandestine barrack brats that decided it opertune to start producing illicit substances on base. Now the supplier in question stopped allowing cash sales in my city however, some 3-4 hrs. away in another city I could still order from the same supplier without a question asked. In posting this to the S.M crowd I was merely looking for a way around this as I am not a drug chemist and I have little to hide, being caught decieving wouldn`t destroy me and it just totally pissed me off loosing my best supplier.

Now a few days has past and the sting has stopped throbbing so much, I am not even sure if I am even interested in going this far to trick a company that might just as likely be offering up all new members to the rcmp for further investigation, one just never knows. Like I said I don`t really have anything to hide however, being investigated by the rcmp potentially or finding my name on a x list doesn`t sound like a very fun vacation spot. Again it is interesting where this topic has moved I also find it interesting that it is such a sore topic to some moderators and one worthy of warning, wow I never thought such a minor topic would become so touchy, oh well opinions and as/holes or so they say, thats life. Personally I think you would have to be a complete moron to be a drug cook who spends his off time posting his conquests and problems online especially in these days where every post can be so effeciently tracked. But thats just my take.

SHADYCHASE

Contrabasso - 18-3-2011 at 22:57

The problem is that though most chemicals are used for legitimate purposes the most press attention is paid to the few chemicals that are used for illegal purposes. Possibly someone in your town IS cooking drugs so the suppliers decide/get warned to shut off supplies.

The sad thing is that most real terrorists seem to be able to buy and ship store and use anything they want.

Additionally most chemicals have some hazard marking and now people care what disposal happens to things.

quicksilver - 19-3-2011 at 07:20

Believe me I understand the frustration. Personally - I doubt that a true "connected" terrorist would use that route & that's honestly not the thrust of my opinion. I really don't want to get into details but we really do live in a different world than even a post 911 world community. And even though the Patriot Act was reigned in (to a degree) there are over-zealous individuals on one side and frank idiots on the other who's order compiles a totality of "red flags".
In the USA and Canada the "List 1" chemicals are drug cook hot buttons & no matter what an individual needs are I would maintain a very strict avoidance of that no matter the reason for purchase.....again; just opinion. I want to underline that I don't say this on the level of condescension or "knee-jerk reaction" but rather, the common level of how much this thing has been attempted in the past. The unfortunate truth is that many cases (not just this discussion) of attempts to re-invent one's self can be construed as sinister because the mind-set of those who delve into this issue are already set to wonder 'why", etc.

If you were put into a position of having to jump through hoops and simply form a company to make a common order I certainly agree that being calmly up front about it would be the only way to go.
Realistically, thinking back on this, perhaps I should not have been so emphatic but that's perhaps a reflection of my own "paranoia" regarding the world in which we live.
I have seen one mistake cost a great deal of trouble but generally those type of things are a total leave of common sense & most likely NOT what we are talking about here.

I would love to order a couple of items.....but I wouldn't - simply because I don't trust another individual to make a clean call on my intentions.





[Edited on 19-3-2011 by quicksilver]

franklyn - 20-3-2011 at 00:21

1. - You , me , the rest of us , are individuals who obtain chemicals for personal hobby use.

2. - Chemical suppliers as a matter of policy do not make transactions with the group just
described , and deal only with verifiable business entities.

Oohh darn , hmmm , how can I make myself appear to be a business , in effect , seem like
something I am not ?

Beyond the mundane task of seeking to engage in commerce , what are the ethics of it ?

Lying in business is not only practiced , it is expected , perhaps you never heard of
" your check is in the mail ". The entire concept of registering a business entity as
" doing business as ( fill in pseudonym here ) " is to conceal the identity of the party
with whom you are actually doing business with ! What is " credit repair " anyhow ,
pretending solvency to obtain greater lending than what might be prudent for you.
You don't overstate your assets or embellish your resume , and you don't claim
personal expenditures are business related. Dudley Do Right is a cartoon character.
Behaving like that diminishes your credibility by seeming naively child like - red flag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWgi6W-uMeI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFyAJhueDJA
In the course of your life you have a standing relationship with a woman. You meet
another woman who captivates your interest. So how do you respond ? Oh honey
I would go out with you this evening except that I met this other woman who is
more interesting than you , and tonight I'll be with her instead.


- It is one thing to lie to others , it is another entirely to lie to yourself
about what you do to feel good about it , with that I can't help you.


__________________________________________________


Benny Hill said it best _

" What do you call a dog with no legs ? "

" It doesn't matter , he won't come anyway "

.

woelen - 21-3-2011 at 00:11

@franklyn: Whatever your reasoning and your motives, the act of setting up a fake business (let's call it that way, it is clear what I mean and it is nothing less and nothing more) for obtaining chemicals is one of the most harmful things one can do for the sake of the hobby in general. This only adds to the negative image of home chemistry. In some countries this even is a crime and I think it is not good at all to invite people to do that kind of things.

I personally do not have a company, nor a registered VAT-number, but I can obtain many many chemicals. Not all of the chemicals I want, but quite a few. For the rest, let's put our efforts in finding ways to make difficult to obtain chemicals from chemicals which are easier to obtain. E.g. bromine is very hard to obtain, but bromides are not.

Still we can obtain equipment without too much trouble (glassware, power supplies, electrodes, glass tubing, heaters, etc.) and with that equipment, a set of common chemicals, AND KNOWLEDGE you can reach a lot. In this way I made
- Br2
- KBrO3
- KClO3
- KIO4
- Na3H2IO6
- K
- 20% reagent grade HCl
from simple and fairly easy to obtain chemicals like KBr, KI, KCl, NaOH, KOH, Mg and 10% hardware store HCl. These are just a few examples, I made more interesting chemicals myself.

Knowledge and reasonable equipment is the key to getting interesting chemicals and this will become more and more true in the near future.

So, let's steer away from discussions about how to set up a fake business. Instead put your energy in finding legal sources of chemicals (they still exist ;) ) and in building up knowledge and experience in making your own chemicals. In the recent past we have seen a few very nice examples, the making of potassium and the making of white P. These efforts make such chemicals accessible for the somewhat more engaged home chemist, but the occasional K3wL who just wants a qick b4ng and sm0k3 is put off.

jon - 6-5-2011 at 21:20

that ups store shit is'nt going to fly any compliance department worth thier salt is going to catch that.
i suggest you use a secretarial service.
incedental to thier business is recieving mail.
if you are talking about drums you may as well rent some commercial space for 700/month.
i could see it now someone trying to route drums to the ups store....

[Edited on 7-5-2011 by jon]

[Edited on 7-5-2011 by jon]

SelfStarter - 8-5-2011 at 08:42

Actually if a business will send drums to the UPS store. UPS has no problem with it. They will even accept truckload shipments for you and hold it for 14days free of charge. Not bad for $20/month. Yes, you are correct the compliance departments will catch UPS stores every-time though.

This sounds best...

albqbrian - 27-5-2011 at 23:00

Quote: Originally posted by Contrabasso  
Come to an arrangement with a local shopkeeper with a suitable trade. "Rent" mailbox and parcel reception from them. Pick a place where the supplies you want are credible. Where do you work? Can you get the storekeeper to receive parcels for you?



There are several hurdles you must pass in this paranoid, post 9/11 world before a major chem company will deal with you. I ran into this a few years ago when I tried to order from Sigma Aldrich. In addition to the things mentioned: no residential address, no PO Box; they also check basic business databases. If they find you there, they'll feel much better. Also they expect to work via a Purchase Order. I suppose some small businesses legitimately use credit cards, but it's another red flag.

One could set all this up, but at that point you're in business and I doubt it'd be cheap. In this time of economic distress I'd say finding a friend who already has a business would be far simpler and cheaper.

Good luck.

franklyn - 29-6-2011 at 08:02

Those of you looking for " Big Trouble " know it's astute to cover your tracks
and affect plausible denial to scrutiny. Delaware, Wyoming and Nevada host
incorporation services that rival off shore providers. No need for Vanuatu or
Andorra. Unless your activities prompt a " criminal " investigation, officious
snoopers won't bother.

Global Money Laundering & Terrorist Financing Threat Assessment
http://www.fatf-gafi.org/dataoecd/48/10/45724350.pdf

Bank Secrecy Act: U.S Money Laundering Threat Assessment
http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/pressrel/011106.pdf

Bank Secrecy Act Anti-Money Laundering Examination Manual
http://www.ffiec.gov/bsa_aml_infobase/documents/BSA_AML_Man_...

Offshore Financial Centers -- IMF Background Paper
http://www.imf.org/external/np/mae/oshore/2000/eng/back.htm

Financial Havens, Banking Secrecy and Money Laundering
http://www.imolin.org/imolin/finhaeng.html

.