Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Sodium Borohydride synthesis at room temp

DocX - 1-1-2022 at 05:44

So there's a paper on the synthesis of Sodium Borohydride by ball milling Mg, borax and sodium carbonate at room temperature.

Yongyang Zhu et al: "Efficient Synthesis of Sodium Borohydride: Balancing Reducing Agents with Intrinsic Hydrogen Source in Hydrated Borax",

https://doi.org/10.1021/acssuschemeng.0c04354.

In the paper it's also mentioned that Al might substitute for Mg, which would be very appealing for me since I have a buttload of Al powder and borax lying around, and since this seems to be an interesting synth.
So now the practical issues: I have a small ball mill, and I can make the drum airtight. An inert atmosphere is said to be needed for the use of Mg powder, and I may be able to provide that. Not as yet sure where I'll get the N2 though, any tips on that?
Also, I expect there wil be some build-up of vapor presssure in the container during the reaction, so I'll need to install a safety valve.
Other than that, what needs to be adressed?

crow6283 - 1-1-2022 at 06:01

Some welding supply shops have Nitrogen as well. Comes in a variety of sized tanks. Basically you ‘rent’ the tank and then can bring it back to ‘fill it’ (swap it out for a full one) as often as you like. The rental on a K tank (large size, up to your waist) might be as much as 200 USD, refilling could vary might be ~40 USD. You’ll need a regulator as well. Different tanks have different fittings and require different regulators depending on what they are for. Nitrogen and CO2 regulators are interchangeable and should be available from the shop.

Fery - 1-1-2022 at 07:37

DocX interesting route! They used NaH + MgH2 initially and managed to replace MgH2 with Mg finally, but they still use NaH
Na2B4O7·5H2O, Na2B4O7·10H2O, NaH, Mg in molar ratio 0.6:0.4:2:17.5
https://sci-hub.ee/10.1021/acssuschemeng.0c04354

tyro - 1-1-2022 at 11:58

Hi all!

DocX, you beat me to posting this! Exciting to see others are looking to try out this method :)

I recently come across another publication by these authors, where they were able to generate NaBH4 in a ball mill at ambient temperature using only borax (the decahydrate), sodium carbonate, and magnesium.

The overall reaction scheme looks like this:

Na2B4O7*10H2O + Na2CO3 + 20Mg -> 4NaBH4 + 20MgO + CH4

They report that using an excess of magnesium pushes the yield up to a max of 75.7% when using a molar ratio of 24.75:1:1 (Mg, Na2B4O7*10H20, Na2CO3).

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201915988

A couple weeks ago, I bought a hobby rock tumbler to give this a shot. The rubber jar was loaded with magnesium turnings made from fire starters, borax (re-crystalized to get the decahydrate since it was sold as the pentahydrate), sodium carbonate made from baking soda, and some 14mm glass marbles. The jar was flushed with nitrogen and tumbled for about a week. On the last day, the bottom of the jar was bulging out, indicating gas production (assuming this is the methane). Interestingly, when the jar was opened, there was a strong and uniquely sweet smell which could be noticed.

At the end of a week of milling, the contents of this first run were incompletely reacted, and I was ill equipped to extract any produced borohydride. The rock tumbler likely needs to be run for quite a bit longer. The author's mentioned a mill time/speed of 20H @ 1000CPM, and this rock tumbler does somewhere under 60CPM. If we go by total number of cycles, this would put the mill time needed closer to 2-4 weeks, not accounting for other factors like milling media or energy put into the system by running at higher speeds.

I started a second run using magnesium turnings which were purchased. Unfortunately, these came coated with some sort of machine oil which, aside from smelling awful, seems to hinder the reaction.

Currently I'm modifying the drive shaft size on the rock tumbler to increase CPMs (should be able to get up to 60-90CPM) and also have some 0.5 inch stainless steel ball bearings on the way. In the coming weeks I'll perform a third run using magnesium from the fire starters and the modified ball mill with stainless steel media. In regard to gas build up, I'll likely "burp" and flush the jar with nitrogen from time to time. Additionally I'm extracting isopropylamine from weed killer to extract any produced borohydride. As far as I can tell, The isopropylamine shouldn't dissolve or interact with the reactants or the produced MgO (though my research is only cursory at this point).

I'll post information/pictures about this third run when I get it started.

[Edited on 1-1-2022 by tyro]

DocX - 1-1-2022 at 14:43

Wow, great to hear and good work!

I was actually not aware of the RPM and media used in the ball milling, and was also just looking to use a regular tumbler. However, reading this (and the really badly written article) I'm thinking about possibly making a ball mill from a washing machine motor I have lying around waiting for a project. That should be able to produce the 1000 RPMs needed.

But I never ball milled at those speeds, I have a hard time seeing how any tumbling whatsoever will occur inside the drum? Won't the balls just be smeared onto the barrel wall from the centrifugal force?

My guess is the pressure build up is foremost from H2 gas. This concerns me somehow, since I would basically be tumbling a pressurized H2 bomb. What are your thoughts on this?

Also, I would probably use magnesium powder when/if I give this a run. Any reason you opted for turnings? Powder is readily available as a pyrotechnic supply here in the EU (so far, at least ... If you're in this part of the world, do check out Polish PyroGarage). They always deliver on time, have good communication and an impressive product list ). Like I wrote, I'd love to use aluminum powder since I'm already stocked on this, but I'm not comfortable with trying things outside of the box at my first run.

And then there's the question of purifying and identifying. Not much use with an unidentified mixture of salts after the run, is it? I would probably use absolute ethanol treated with an appropriate amount of NaOH. This would eliminate all the unreacted borax and carbonate, and the borohydride would be stabilized by the alkalinity and hopefully not hydrolize. I haven't checked out all the possible intermediates yet, but as a first washing i'm thinking that would probably be optimal.

When it comes to identifying i'm unsure. Possibly just try and ignite it or dump some in slightly acidic water to see if it reacts violently?

tyro - 1-1-2022 at 20:57

The authors did not mention the type of mill being used. For 1000RPM... I have a feeling this might be a planetary or some other specialty mill. I would imagine, as you do, that those speeds to be problematic in a simple rotating mill, though a lot of this is new to me.

H2 does sounds right after re-reading the article and doing some thinking. The question here is, what are the kinetics of adsorption of hydrogen on the magnesium surfaces in this system? All the papers I've read where MgH2 is prepared in a ball mill seem to indicate something like 10 bar required for the H2 pressure. But these are using Mg and an externally provided atmosphere of hydrogen, and not generating the H2 in situ. It's not clear to me if the H2 produced from Mg + Mg(OH)2 -> MgO + 2MgO + H2 needs to reach some critical pressure in the mill for the MgH to form, or if it would be consumed relatively quickly. Safety concerns aside, this makes me question if the jar "burping" will be detrimental to reaction progress.

The turnings were chosen since I had a bunch of those camping fire starters lying around and it was easy enough to get turnings off with a drill. I certainly could go for powder though. Perhaps some part of me was also thinking that it would prevent the reaction from proceeding too quickly initially, and perhaps add some safety to the fact that this is being done with crude tools.

For purifying - Aren't carbonate salts slightly soluble in EtOH? Perhaps the small amount which would come over would be a non-issue or able to be removed later. Additionally, might magnesium ethoxide form from any unreacted Mg? Perhaps the kinetics are slow enough that this isn't too much of an issue either.

Were you thinking of just testing out the ethanolic solution as is, or trying to crash out the borohydride, say with cold isopropyl alcohol?

I was trying to think of ways for purification using easily acquired solvents. Initially I was considering isopropyl alcohol in a soxhlet, but this seems too reactive. I noticed on the wiki here for NaBH4, that toluene is listed under the solubility section, but I failed to find any info to confirm this. Isopropylamine was chosen since it seems to be the industry standard and is not terribly difficult to produce OTC.

I do have some borohydride on hand as a reference in this endeavor, so perhaps some can be spared to investigate purification strategies. Open to any suggestions.

With regard to identification - Observing reactivity was along the lines of what I was thinking too. Perhaps also measuring the volume of gas produced when hydrolyzing the borohydride?


DocX - 2-1-2022 at 01:31

I found an account of materials used in the much better written original article that has a detailed experimental section:

The mechanochemical reaction
was conducted by ball milling mixtures in a shaker mill (QM-3C, Nanjing, China) at 1000 or 1200
cycles per min (cpm) under Ar and ambient temperature.


So a shaker type Ball Mill ... I never heard of it before, but from the name and google implies that it's a rocking motion produced rather than a rotational. This is something else altogether.

Also:

"After ball milling, the product mixture was first extracted by 20 mL ethylenediamine (C2H8N2,
purity: ≥99%, Sigma-Aldrich) and filtered through a polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) membrane
(0.25 μm) in a glove box (MIKROUNA, China) with the oxygen and water concentrations below
0.1 ppm"


So ethylenediamine.

tyro - 2-1-2022 at 07:40

Nice find!

These high energy/planetary mills are not cheap! I'd like to continue pursuing the rock tumbler, as it would be interesting if it's possible to use off the shelf components, even if it takes a good while longer. These jars cannot hold any substantial pressure, so venting is a must. I imagine there'd be a substantial effect on yield if the gas buildup is mostly hydrogen. I'll continue reading to see if I can understand the hydrogen absorption mechanics better; but in the end experimentation is needed.

One concern I've been wrestling with is the risk associated with milling magnesium. From several accounts, it seems that this can be really dangerous if the particle size gets too small and there isn't controlled oxidation to form a passivation layer. Initially I've been thinking that the borax and carbonate would help to provide a controlled oxidation, but I can't help to wonder if this would become problematic in the later stages of milling as particle size gets smaller. There was an account described where milling magnesium and carbosil (SiO2) resulted in a nasty accident in another thread: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=14...

Perhaps someone can chime in with thoughts with regard to this specific mixture?

Ethylenediamine does look like a good solvent. Though it seems most amine solvents should work to varying degrees. Page 9 on this brochure has a table of solvent solubilities: https://ecochem.com.co/pdf/Hydrifin%20Brochure.pdf

monolithic - 2-1-2022 at 08:17

Quote: Originally posted by DocX  
When it comes to identifying i'm unsure. Possibly just try and ignite it or dump some in slightly acidic water to see if it reacts violently?

https://sci-hubtw.hkvisa.net/10.1021/ac60071a041

DocX - 2-1-2022 at 13:40

Quote: Originally posted by tyro  

One concern I've been wrestling with is the risk associated with milling magnesium.


Yes. This worries me too. I have been fooling around quite a bit with pyrotechnics, and Mg powder is one of those things you always treat with the utmost respect. It's a very potent fuel. I would normally never ball mill anything with a metal powder.
so even if the jar doesn't contain any oxidizers, not even oxygen, I would be very weary as long as it was running, or when I was about to open it ... It also contains any number of projectiles in the form of ceramic or steel balls.
So let's review: we have a tightly sealed container full of very flammable gas, steel balls and a really potent explosive fuel, that has been running for something like two weeks with possible side products being produced through shedding of the milling media or the container reacting with Mg, or intermediates, or something ... and then I'm supposed to bend over it, pick it up and *pssshhht open it to let oxygen in?

I am Jacks growing state of concern.

My hat off once more to you sir for already doing this. You have balls the size of very large milling medias.


[Edited on 20222222/1/2 by DocX]

DocX - 2-1-2022 at 13:44

Quote: Originally posted by monolithic  
Quote: Originally posted by DocX  
When it comes to identifying i'm unsure. Possibly just try and ignite it or dump some in slightly acidic water to see if it reacts violently?

https://sci-hubtw.hkvisa.net/10.1021/ac60071a041


Thank you! Yes, the potassium iodide titration is actually accounted for in the original article. It was the authors choice of quantifying NaBH4.

crow6283 - 2-1-2022 at 15:21

Quote: Originally posted by DocX  
Quote: Originally posted by tyro  

One concern I've been wrestling with is the risk associated with milling magnesium.


Yes. This worries me too. I have been fooling around quite a bit with pyrotechnics, and Mg powder is one of those things you always treat with the utmost respect. It's a very potent fuel. I would normally never ball mill anything with a metal powder.
so even if the jar doesn't contain any oxidizers, not even oxygen, I would be very weary as long as it was running, or when I was about to open it ... It also contains any number of projectiles in the form of ceramic or steel balls.
So let's review: we have a tightly sealed container full of very flammable gas, steel balls and a really potent explosive fuel, that has been running for something like two weeks with possible side products being produced through shedding of the milling media or the container reacting with Mg, or intermediates, or something ... and then I'm supposed to bend over it, pick it up and *pssshhht open it to let oxygen in?

I am Jacks growing state of concern.

My hat off once more to you sir for already doing this. You have balls the size of very large milling medias.


[Edited on 20222222/1/2 by DocX]


I think this could be mitigated by instead of just flushing the tumbler with Nitrogen, to evacuate it with a vacuum pump, fill with nitrogen, spin it a couple of times, evacuate again and then fill it with nitrogen. This should probably be repeated a couple of times actually.

It would not be that difficult to rig up a three way valve for this including pressure gauge or combination vacuum + pressure gauge. This would allow an easy way to bleed off excess pressure as well without having to fully open the apparatus. Stick it behind a blast shield if you’re that worried about it.

[Edited on 2-1-2022 by crow6283]

tyro - 2-1-2022 at 21:03

crow6283 - Those are good ideas.

I think the concern is around how reactive magnesium is when it's super fine. In the above mentioned incident, it was speculated that the magnesium was reactive enough to take oxygen from the SiO2; though I don't recall if the mill was purged or not; perhaps the reaction was initiated by atmospheric oxygen and then further fueled by the oxygen in the silicon dioxide.

In any case, the stainless steel media I received today loads my cheap-o rock tumbler down too much to be of use. At the moment I'm considering building a custom rotary tumbler with pressure relief, pressure gauge, gas inlet, and possibly some sort of temperature monitoring. Jar material might be PVC (clear to see what's going on?), though I have my doubts on if this material makes sense. Schedule 40 PVC should be able to take max pressure of ~140 PSI which, depending on vessel and batch size, the end methane pressure should be well below; however, I'm unsure of what the H2 pressures might reach at any given point. Most DIY tumbler projects I've come across are rotary style, but I did see one DIY vibrational tumbler setup on YouTube. All these start looking pretty loud too, perhaps a blast shield and soundproofing together would be in order.

So much for a super off-the-shelf approach! I was hoping to adapt this procedure in an economical way; but the cost and perceived risk are seeming to climb. In working to test out the method in this paper, do other care to see economy? I know borohydride is relatively easy to acquire, so maybe this isn't a huge consideration.

Anyone here have experience with or built a high-energy vibrational or planetary ball mill?

DocX - 3-1-2022 at 10:43

Quote: Originally posted by tyro  
crow6283 Jar material might be PVC (clear to see what's going on?), though I have my doubts on if this material makes sense.


I don't know ... that was the material used in the incident you linked. And in the comments, some people speculated that powdered PVC had a part in the bada-boom.

tyro - 3-1-2022 at 14:07

Quote: Originally posted by DocX  
Quote: Originally posted by tyro  
crow6283 Jar material might be PVC (clear to see what's going on?), though I have my doubts on if this material makes sense.


I don't know ... that was the material used in the incident you linked. And in the comments, some people speculated that powdered PVC had a part in the bada-boom.


Hmm.. scratch that then.

I came across a video, without much other information, where someone built a vibratory ball mill. The design doesn't seem too complicated, but definitely need more research.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV6UHPeNco8&t=6s

Probably won't get around to actually doing anything substantial this month as I'll be traveling.

Nitrous2000 - 3-1-2022 at 15:30

Quote: Originally posted by crow6283  
Some welding supply shops have Nitrogen as well. Comes in a variety of sized tanks. Basically you ‘rent’ the tank and then can bring it back to ‘fill it’ (swap it out for a full one) as often as you like. The rental on a K tank (large size, up to your waist) might be as much as 200 USD, refilling could vary might be ~40 USD. You’ll need a regulator as well. Different tanks have different fittings and require different regulators depending on what they are for. Nitrogen and CO2 regulators are interchangeable and should be available from the shop.


keep an eye out on eBAY for a nitrogen membrane separator. They sell out fast and are either ridiculously expensive or gone quickly. The other is the Nitrogen Fill gun that you just attach to compressed air and get ~95+ nitrogen gas out.

crow6283 - 3-1-2022 at 15:42

Quote: Originally posted by Nitrous2000  
Quote: Originally posted by crow6283  
Some welding supply shops have Nitrogen as well. Comes in a variety of sized tanks. Basically you ‘rent’ the tank and then can bring it back to ‘fill it’ (swap it out for a full one) as often as you like. The rental on a K tank (large size, up to your waist) might be as much as 200 USD, refilling could vary might be ~40 USD. You’ll need a regulator as well. Different tanks have different fittings and require different regulators depending on what they are for. Nitrogen and CO2 regulators are interchangeable and should be available from the shop.


keep an eye out on eBAY for a nitrogen membrane separator. They sell out fast and are either ridiculously expensive or gone quickly. The other is the Nitrogen Fill gun that you just attach to compressed air and get ~95+ nitrogen gas out.


That’s very interesting is never seen those before. I’m not really sure what the use would be though. I’ve used nitrogen from cylinders in the past for running reactions under or for storage of air sensitive compounds.

macckone - 3-1-2022 at 23:24

Another name for a planetary ball grinder is vibratory tumbler.
The difference in nomenclature accounts for price but not for effectiveness.
The vibratory tumblers usually use a 1750 rpm motor.

https://www.harborfreight.com/5-lb-metal-vibrator-tumbler-67...



Mateo_swe - 8-3-2022 at 11:38

I looked into making Sodium Borohydride using a DIY electrochemical cell some years ago but i dont know if it would actually work.
The project never made it into actual experiments but it was a very intresting idea, maybe i can find my notes and papers about it.
It used a electrochemical divided cell with a (correction: not anion it was a cation membrane) cation-exchange membrane and borax was in the electrolyte if i remember correctly.
I remember this project because i searched for a cation exchange membrane that could withstand very high pH and i actually ordered such a cation-exchange membrane from Fumatech online store and i still have it laying around somewhere unused.
The goal of the idea was not only to make NaBH4, but also to make it very cheap so it could be used as a hydrogen storage medium.
I post info if i can find it on my old computer.

Maybe someone with knowledge of similar things can comment if such an idea could be a possible way to make NaBH4.

[Edited on 2022-3-8 by Mateo_swe]

tyro - 15-3-2022 at 13:49

Quote: Originally posted by Mateo_swe  
I looked into making Sodium Borohydride using a DIY electrochemical cell some years ago but i dont know if it would actually work.


Interesting! Was this your reference // inspiration?

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2010.01.129

Mateo_swe - 17-3-2022 at 06:20

These PDFs and similar inspired me.


Attachment: US3734842 - Electrolytic process for the production of alkali metal borohydrates.pdf (893kB)
This file has been downloaded 669 times

Attachment: Review of Chemical Processes for the Synthesis of Sodium Borohydride.pdf (404kB)
This file has been downloaded 1871 times

Attachment: US20050224365A1 One-step electrosynthesis of Borohydride.pdf (481kB)
This file has been downloaded 749 times

clearly_not_atara - 17-3-2022 at 08:20

This high speed ball milling tek came up on some other forum years ago. Turns out fast ball milling is hard.

But IIRC you can make borohydride by milling with magnesium silicide, Mg2Si. This is a reasonably accessible precursor methinks.

mysteriusbhoice - 17-3-2022 at 21:18

you know this is gonna sound wild but if you are producing borohydride in situ why not just shove in your reactant to be reduced in with this concoction of borax and magnesium and you can potentiallly have a setup where this reduction occurs as the borohydride is formed in small amounts and you can simply extract your product at the end.
say you wanna reduce a nitro group compound just shove it in there and see if you have an amine at the end.

tyro - 18-3-2022 at 10:47

I'm in the process of prototyping a vibrating ball mill using (relatively) readily available parts, which will have the ability to charge an inert atmosphere and monitor pressure buildup.

The milling container is constructed out of a 3"W x 4"L stainless steel tri-clamp tube (this is used for brewing equipment). The tube is sealed with PTFE seals and two stainless steel end caps with 1/4" NPT fittings. The end caps are held in place with purportedly high-pressure clamps. To each of the NPT fittings on the end caps, there will be pressure snubber adaptors (stainless steel mesh), which will serve to keep the milling media and material out of the inlets. One side will have a pressure gauge, and the other an overpressure relief.

The milling jar sits on a spring-supported platform which has a vibrating motor intended for concrete work on one side, and a counterweight on the other.

mill_1.jpg.jpeg - 3.1MB

mill_2.jpg.jpeg - 3.1MB

Currently I'm working to optimize placement of components for optimal motion of milling media inside the jar. Afterwards, I'll move on to running tests to verify the vessel can hold pressure in operation, and also that the overpressure works as expected.

This thing is *extremely* loud. It definitely will need to have some sort of noise-reducing enclosure built for it.


Mateo_swe - 3-5-2022 at 13:24

How much pressure could such an stainless steel tri-clamp tube with the high-pressure clamps and PTFE seals take before failing?
The PTFE seals should be able to withstand quite high temps as well.
Very interesting, such a tube could be used in many DIY ideas.

tyro - 29-12-2022 at 21:59

The documentation on the manufacturer's site (Dernord, in this case) rates these pieces at a max of 250 PSI at ambient temp.

I had shelved the project due to safety and noise concerns. I'm still trying to suss out the likelihood of encountering catastrophic results. The vibrating platform approach, to me, introduced a lot of variables around stress for the apparatus; not to mention it was egregiously loud.

One of my projects during the hiatus from this was to investigate electrochemical approaches to borohydride. Unfortunately, it seems that most of the literature is misleading. There was some mention of a continuous voltage differential impeding borohydride formation due to electrostatic repulsion of the material at the cathode. Some references indicate that reverse pulse processes might bear fruit - i.e. forward voltage with differential to drive borohydride formation, reverse voltage below breakdown to offset the electrostatic repulsion, along with some neutral refectory period. Alas, there seems to be no clear signal of reproducibility from what I've seen in any of these. Additionally, none of the trials I ran were conclusive (though my methods, materials, and analytical capabilities in this regard are rather limited).

I've recently acquired a tank of argon and am picking up tinkering on the tri clamp bits to try a go at a rotating mill approach. I'm not sure if the necessary conditions for borohydride formation can be had outside of high energy milling, but I may be up for some trials if I can gain enough confidence in the setup.

chempyre235 - 16-10-2025 at 14:47

I had been mulling over some ideas for possible substitutes that would make this reaction safer, and work at least in theory. Here are the preliminary calculations I've done so far. I have included the enthalpies of the compounds in (kJ/mol).

Potassium borohydride:
This could potentially work for sodium too, and would not produce any gas, provided the hydroxide is fresh (i.e., free of carbonate). Boric acid is OTC for use as a pesticide, but could also be made from borax.

Potassium cyanoborohydride.


  1. 2K3Fe(CN)6 (-173.2) + B2O3 (-1254) ---> 2KB(CN)4 (-770.36) + Fe2O3 (-824.2) + 4KCN (-131.5) (Δh = -1290.12 kJ/mol.)
  2. KB(CN)4 (-770.36) + 3KOH (-425.8) +2Al (0) ---> KBH3CN (-354.06) + Al2O3 (-1675.7) + 3KCN (-131.5) (Δh = -376.5 kJ/mol.)

Notes: Potassium ferricyanide isn't necessarily OTC, but is readily available from photography chemical suppliers. Obviously, boric acid will react with cyanide to form HCN, but by keeping the ball mill pressurized with inert gas, HCN formation should be disfavored. The reason I have this synth divided into two steps is to prevent a thermite reaction between the aluminum and the iron (II) oxide. The main drawback to this synthesis is that there are five moles of KCN formed for every mole of KBH4.

MrDoctor - 16-10-2025 at 15:31

i saw a paper that pressurized a ball mill with a balloon via a silicone hose.
It was one of those shaker style ones not limited by gravity to make the media fall.

the paper itself i dont remember details of well, but it was about how under mild conditions sodium oxide absorbs hydrogen and dissociates into NaH + NaOH, and because its intimately mixed with oxide and hydroxide, it does this thing where, under vacuum and very mild heating, it releases the hydrogen well below NaH decomposition temp, and does so on demand like a chemical demand-flow-regulator, dropping the temp a little and returning the hydrogen then causes it to eventually re-absorb, it was being researched as a sort of phase-change hydrogen storage technology, or, idk the proper word for it. at balloon pressure i think it got to like 10-15%, and ultimately at 30-50PSI, it goes as far as it can go, whatever the pressure was, i recall taking note of the fact that cheap plastic pumps could reach those pressures, including a heavy duty peristaltic pump.
in this instance the purpose of the ball mill was to establish and maintain a slurry that hydrogen was mixed intimately through, on a porous substrate i believe it inhales and exhales hydrogen relatively freely.

the core mechanic at play is that, NaH decomposes at an increasingly lower temperature as Na2O and NaOH content rises, but it turned out that this was a reversible equilibrium, and by converting to a fine disperson, it no longer becomes neccesary to provide such extreme hydrogen pressure to diffuse through the protective layer of hydride that forms. actually now that i say it, im pretty sure that another paper i read, if it wasnt just a footnote in this one, was that the same mechanism applies to hydrogenating sodium metal, where ultrasound or milling keeps the hydride stripped away, allowing for atmospheric pressure reaction, or, whatever PSI a balloon provides.

shaker type ball mills ive also seen can run so fast, what takes days can be accomplished within hours, i know one mention in a paper somewhere had it only mill for like 20 minutes or so, after i began paying attention to when they pop up.
one of the merits of the style is that the density of the media is no longer important, just its relative hardness, the grinding action is no longer limited by how quickly a pile of it can tumble down over itself. the few ive seen photos of pretty much just look like beefy crucibles or hydrothermal reactors, really, just a very short, very thick walled, threaded pipe not unlike plumbing pipe with one end welded shut already.

bnull - 16-10-2025 at 15:35

Quote:
Potassium borohydride:

  • 3KOH (-425.8) + 8 Al (0) + 3B(OH)3 (-1094.9) ---> 3KBH4 (-228.86) + 4Al2O3 (-1675.7) (Δh = -2827.28 kJ/mol.)

I see a problem here. There is the reaction between KOH and boric acid:
$$3KOH + B(OH)_3 \rightarrow K_3BO_3 + 3H_2O.$$ The result is a sludge of potassium borate, boric acid and aluminum. Heat that and water evaporates. Keep on heating and aluminum borates appear. All hydrogen is lost as water and elemental hydrogen. It may be thermodynamically feasible but in practice neutralization wins.

MrDoctor - 16-10-2025 at 16:01

would the solution then not be to use either potassium oxide, and/or boric anhydride? boric anhydride at very least is easy to produce and most of the issues it has, because its basically molten glass that barely reacts with water, are resolved in the mill.

I just now recalled another synthesis of sodium hydride using methane as a hydrogen source, is the methane that formed perhaps participating in the OP's reaction?
excessive gas burping could be that.

lastly, have any methods been determined where magnesium could be supplemented by aluminum or what happens? because a lot of reactions that occur under extreme heat and pressure also occur when grinding media collide, i could imagine the instantaneous formation of aluminum hydride that transfers to the magnesium unless there is no reason for it to not just go right back.

bnull - 16-10-2025 at 18:57

Quote:
would the solution then not be to use either potassium oxide, and/or boric anhydride?

Where would hydrogen come from?

There is too much oxygen involved and all the hydrogen is bonded to oxygen. It is not easy, otherwise industry would have solved that long ago.

Edit: Perhaps urea could be used in a modified process. But then there is the possibility of the formation of boron nitride in place of borane, which is the main goal here. Not much wriggle room here.

[Edited on 17-10-2025 by bnull]

MrDoctor - 16-10-2025 at 23:16

no just, reducing the amount or physical state of the water that is present to reduce the excess without changing the potassium:boron balance. in one of the papers provided, the reaction goes from taking 3.5 hours to 30, still with significant yield loss too, in what to my understanding was because too much water existed decreasing the milling efficiency. the powdered reaction mixture needs to be at a certain level of dryness to progress smoothly without say, getting too soft or whatever it is that happens with water that is in a solid adsorbed / crystaline state. In that paper they used magnesium and sodium hydrides to make sure there was enough hydrogen without it being present in the form of water. Aluminum was able to replace the magnesium hydride, but not the sodium. One can only hope that a bit of borohydride starter from a previous run, and/or adding 5-10/15PSI of hydrogen in the argon can remedy the situation and get conversion back in the upper 90s

bnull - 17-10-2025 at 12:50

What about aluminum boride, AlB2, in place of aluminum? Or maybe a mixture of aluminum and aluminum boride?

chempyre235 - 18-10-2025 at 07:35

I think that would help to reduce the oxygen sources, but the problem is still the lack of OTC sources of hydrogen. Using pressurized gaseous hydrogen would warrant special alloys for the mill (and severe risk), and other sources seem to either result in water or (in the case with amines/amides) boron nitrides of borazines. I think we're on the right track, though, and I'm thankful that more minds are on this.

clearly_not_atara - 20-10-2025 at 08:13

Quote: Originally posted by bnull  
What about aluminum boride, AlB2, in place of aluminum? Or maybe a mixture of aluminum and aluminum boride?

The production of borides is nontrivial and usually does not occur at room temperature. There are some Indian papers claiming that MgB2 can be electrodeposited from DMSO, but the route is not attested outside India and "I'll believe it when I see it" :P. Thermite rxns are discussed far more often than they are performed.

MgB2 is well-known as a precursor to borohydride by rxn with NaOH and it is plausible that other borides will be as well. However, the production of the borides remains difficult. It may however be possible to obtain MgB2 commercially, since there is substantial interest in this compound. At the very least, it is basically nonflammable and should be easy to ship, unlike borohydride.

There has been substantial research interest in the production of MgB2, but the vast majority of papers are concerned with producing superconductor-grade boride, which is much more complicated than what we need. It is difficult to search for "crude" methods that may be more easily adopted by, uh, me.

EDIT: maybe someone can access the paper:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsaem.2c02946

[Edited on 20-10-2025 by clearly_not_atara]

bnull - 20-10-2025 at 09:45

I suggested aluminum boride because I was reading about it in a book of inorganic preparations. Brauer has both AlB2 and AlB12, but I think it was somewhere else.

davidfetter - 20-10-2025 at 11:27

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
Quote: Originally posted by bnull  
What about aluminum boride, AlB2, in place of aluminum? Or maybe a mixture of aluminum and aluminum boride?

The production of borides is nontrivial and usually does not occur at room temperature. There are some Indian papers claiming that MgB2 can be electrodeposited from DMSO, but the route is not attested outside India and "I'll believe it when I see it" :P. Thermite rxns are discussed far more often than they are performed.

MgB2 is well-known as a precursor to borohydride by rxn with NaOH and it is plausible that other borides will be as well. However, the production of the borides remains difficult. It may however be possible to obtain MgB2 commercially, since there is substantial interest in this compound. At the very least, it is basically nonflammable and should be easy to ship, unlike borohydride.

There has been substantial research interest in the production of MgB2, but the vast majority of papers are concerned with producing superconductor-grade boride, which is much more complicated than what we need. It is difficult to search for "crude" methods that may be more easily adopted by, uh, me.

EDIT: maybe someone can access the paper:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsaem.2c02946

[Edited on 20-10-2025 by clearly_not_atara]


I accessed it. Here's the meat, as I see it:

Quote:
2. MATERIALS AND METHODS

Mg particles (800 nm, 99.9%, US Research Nanomaterials) and boric
acid powder (99.5%, Sigma Aldrich) were used in the synthesis.
Commercial MgB2 (−100 mesh, 99%, Sigma Aldrich) was purchased
to serve as a standard against which to compare the amount of energy
released. The synthesis method involves annealing the physical
mixture of the Mg and boric acid powders by a process similar to that
used to produce Mg/B solid solutions from Mg and B.10 Briefly, Mg
and boric acid were mixed in the weight ratio of 1:1 (excess Mg) by
dry powder-based magnetic mixing, and the mixture was spread on
the surface of the glass slide (Dot Scientific Inc.). After forming a layer
on the glass slide, the powder was compressed with another glass slide
from the top to maximize contact between particles in the powder and
minimize contact with air. Glass slides were packed using aluminum
foil and placed into a muffle furnace (model: FB1415M, Thermolyne)
for annealing. The temperature was increased to 550 °C at a rate of 30
°C/min and was maintained at 550 °C for 2 h. After processing, the
furnace was turned off, and the particles were left to cool inside for 3
h. Time and temperature conditions for the synthesis were optimized
by measuring the energy released from the oxidation of synthesized MgB2.
X-ray diffraction (XRD) was performed using Cu Kα X-rays on a
Malvern Panalytical XPert Pro MPD theta−theta diffractometer. X-
ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS) was carried out using a
Physical Electronics VersaProbe II instrument equipped with a
monochromatic Al Kα X-ray source. Scanning transmission electron
microscopy (STEM) with energy-dispersive spectroscopy (EDS) was
executed on a Talos F200X at 200 kV with an XFEG source and high-
angle annular dark-field (HAADF) imaging. Particle size analysis was
carried out using dynamic light scattering (DLS) on a Malvern
Zetasizer Nano ZS. Intensity fluctuations were analyzed, which gives
the velocity of the Brownian motion of the particles from which we
can measure the particle size using the Stokes−Einstein equation.
Thermal analysis was performed on a TA Instruments Model Q600
SDT, which provided simultaneous measurements of heat flow
(differential scanning calorimetry (DSC)) and weight change (TGA)
on the sample from ∼20 to 1000 °C. Analyses were conducted in air
at a volumetric flow rate of 100 mL/min. Alumina sample cups (90
μL, TA Instruments) were used in the analysis to hold the sample. A
heating rate of 20 °C/min was used till 1000 °C after maintaining
isothermal conditions for the first 10 min. To determine the storage
stability of the synthesized MgB2 and compare it with the stability of
Mg, accelerated aging tests were conducted. The Mg and MgB2
samples were placed in an oven for 120 min with temperature and
relative humidity of 100 °C and 70%, respectively. After this, both
samples were taken for DSC analysis to measure their oxidation
energy release. The changes in the energy release were noted and
compared before and after the aging tests to quantify the effect of
synthesizing MgB2 on Mg.