Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Can Platinum be used as a hydrogenation catalyst?

theAngryLittleBunny - 22-1-2022 at 16:58

As far as I know, palladium is usually used as a hydrogenation catalyst, mostly for alkenes. However I decided to order platinum instead because palladium is just so expensive and I think platinum is a much cooler element then palladium.

However I would like to do hydrogenations of alkenes and maybe some other reductions with hydrogen and would like to know if platinum can do that as well if I turn it into platinum black or platinum on carbon, even though palladium may still be superior. Or should I have posted this question before ordering platinum for 130€? lol.

I read online about platinum being used for some kind of hydrogenation reaction and assumed it would just be a slightly inferior option to palladium, but still useful. Any help would be appreciated.

Bedlasky - 22-1-2022 at 17:20

Metals from nickel group (Ni, Pd, Pt) are often used as hydrogenation catalyst. Nickel would be very cheap hydrogenation catalyst. But I don't know if these metals are always interchangable or just in some cases.

crow6283 - 22-1-2022 at 17:29

PtO2 can be used to reduce double bonds as effectively as Pd/C. PtO2 can be prepared fairly easy for the home chemist, I believe some people have even done this on YouTube!

leau - 23-1-2022 at 11:08

Using the search engine here could have found:

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=41...

and then employing Scholar:

http://library.lol/main/D65779753A27B4F0ED758B804D6457CB

which is attached for those who can't be bothered :( The end results from the effort applied :cool:

Attachment: Paul Rylander (Auth.) - Catalytic Hydrogenation Over Platinum Metals-Elsevier Science (1967).pdf (7.3MB)
This file has been downloaded 133 times


draculic acid69 - 29-1-2022 at 23:16

Quote: Originally posted by theAngryLittleBunny  
As far as I know, palladium is usually used as a hydrogenation catalyst, mostly for alkenes. However I decided to order platinum instead because palladium is just so expensive and I think platinum is a much cooler element then palladium.

However I would like to do hydrogenations of alkenes and maybe some other reductions with hydrogen and would like to know if platinum can do that as well if I turn it into platinum black or platinum on carbon, even though palladium may still be superior. Or should I have posted this question before ordering platinum for 130€? lol.

I read online about platinum being used for some kind of hydrogenation reaction and assumed it would just be a slightly inferior option to palladium, but still useful. Any help would be appreciated.


Yes U definitely should have posted before paying that much.
I'm a supplier of platinum group metals and have better prices than 99%
of other sellers. How much metal are U getting for that much money?

[Edited on 30-1-2022 by draculic acid69]

draculic acid69 - 29-1-2022 at 23:21

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
Metals from nickel group (Ni, Pd, Pt) are often used as hydrogenation catalyst. Nickel would be very cheap hydrogenation catalyst. But I don't know if these metals are always interchangable or just in some cases.


I think nickel requires much higher pressures and temperatures
than platinum or palladium. the difference between maintaining
a rxn at 30psi while stirring/rocking/heating all at once compared to
300psi is a major difference.

zed - 29-1-2022 at 23:27

Oh, an easy prep is dissolving the Platinum in Aqua Regia to produce Chloroplatinic Acid.

And then reducing the Chloroplatinic Acid to Platinum Black with Sodium Borohydride in Ethanol.

It produces a very active Catalyst.

Use the search engine. We have discussed this many times.

A little while back, I bought a Platinum coin for this purpose.

Very pure. Reasonable price. Just a little over Spot price.

Ebay.

[Edited on 30-1-2022 by zed]

draculic acid69 - 17-3-2022 at 04:46

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
Oh, an easy prep is dissolving the Platinum in Aqua Regia to produce Chloroplatinic Acid.

And then reducing the Chloroplatinic Acid to Platinum Black with Sodium Borohydride in Ethanol.

It produces a very active Catalyst.

Use the search engine. We have discussed this many times.

A little while back, I bought a Platinum coin for this purpose.

Very pure. Reasonable price. Just a little over Spot price.

Ebay.

[Edited on 30-1-2022 by zed]


I can usually be cheaper than eBay.
I have very competitive prices.

Dr.Bob - 17-3-2022 at 16:42

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69  
Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
Metals from nickel group (Ni, Pd, Pt) are often used as hydrogenation catalyst. Nickel would be very cheap hydrogenation catalyst. But I don't know if these metals are always interchangable or just in some cases.


I think nickel requires much higher pressures and temperatures
than platinum or palladium. the difference between maintaining
a rxn at 30psi while stirring/rocking/heating all at once compared to
300psi is a major difference.


For some reactions Raney Nickel in ethanol works great at very low pressures, like nitro to amine, and some other easy reductions. it can also be used for transfer type reductions, like with hydrazine, which will provide hydrogen in the presence of Raney nickel. I think many other reducing agents can work as well. It comes in water and often just a bit of slurry from a Pasteur pipette will work for a reaction. Much easier than Pd/C for nitro reductions, and can be selective as well.

Antiswat - 17-4-2022 at 10:55

aha just dissolving platinum in NOCl? my advice is that you divide into very small pieces, perhaps even grind it down on sandpaper
took me a week on/off with constant boiling and constant addition of acid to dissolve one single gram of platinum, NurdRage also expressed some type of despair towards this dissolution project

once you have it dissolved it can simply be thermally decomposed, you may test that its indeed platinum with hydrogen peroxide, it catalyses its decomposition

SWIM - 18-4-2022 at 09:16

I think the Borohydride route is supposed to give a somewhat more active catalyst.


I also think this is the spoon-feediest question I've seen posted about hydrogenation catalysts.

Not knowing platinum can be used for a hydrogenation catalyst is like not knowing water can be used as a polar solvent.


AvBaeyer - 18-4-2022 at 18:08

Well said, SWIM.

AvB

BromicAcid - 18-4-2022 at 20:46

It's also interesting to think how finances figure into research, for years palladium was the cheaper of the platinum/palladium pairing which probably drove some research budgets but things have been inverted now for the last couple years.

zed - 22-4-2022 at 05:31

In my youth, Platinum was about $300/ Oz.. Palladium was $30-$40/ per Oz..

Gold could be purchased for about $125/Oz as Krugerrands.

The price of Palladium has gone wild.


clearly_not_atara - 22-4-2022 at 19:07

Pd is just as rare as the others, but there was an oversupply following the collapse of the Soviet Union and the new Russian government basically plundering stockpiles to pay for graft

SWIM - 22-4-2022 at 21:31

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
Pd is just as rare as the others, but there was an oversupply following the collapse of the Soviet Union and the new Russian government basically plundering stockpiles to pay for graft


I believe Zed is older than that
He's talking prices not long after Bretton Woods , I think. (early or mid 70s)

I wasn't following catalytic hydrogenation metal prices much back then, but I was in the 1980s, and palladium was much cheaper than gold or platinum in the 80s.
I started following precious metal prices when the Hunt Brothers tried to corner the silver market.

I Got lucky and sold my silver stash at something like $30/oz on the way up.(It peaked near $50 before the crash) I had a bunch from coin collecting as a little kid. Back then you could get $20 worth of dimes at the bank and there'd be a few silver ones in there as we made silver coins up until 1964 and some were still circulating. I did this many times and had a bunch of them when the Hunt brothers did their thing around 1980.

After that windfall I watched precious metals for years, but never made profit like that again (except a big old ingot I got at a garage sale in the 90s. Silver again, but so damned tarnished the seller thought it was some cheap mystery metal. And there was a wine bottle full of mercury that I eventually did okay on too.)

Anyway I followed the really precious stuff too. Wanted to try the catalytic converter thing in the early 90s, but never actually did it. Didn't know that much chemistry yet.
I also wanted to make fake Krugerands with tungsten inside them, but that was way out of my league and The one real connection I'd had as a teen was dead by then.
I haven't checked my recollections against the interwebs, but I'm pretty damn confident I'm right about those price trends.

Edit:
Some of this might not sound like me to some of you, but there were some real grease-ball thieving fucks in my family and it can kinda rub off on you. When my Nonno (My Italian grandpa, the other one was good as gold) got older and less tactful he sometimes told stories that freaked people out. I remember one birthday party in his 80s where he gleefully told a story about a long, brutal fight which ended with the line, "So I dumped him in a drainage ditch and they never found the body." He said this with a grin and a chuckle.

I never hurt anybody and wasn't a robber.

Except the 'bank job'. Not what you're thinking though. I helped Nonnu and my uncle (a real fuckwit piece of shit) steal part of a bank. About 2000 pounds. Not in money, in weight.
We actually broke into the construction site where a bank was being renovated and stole about a ton of bricks and decorative stone-work one Sunday.
So I was a bank robber maybe? No, really just a bank thief. A weird minor crime by comparison but still grand theft if they caught us. But I was only 15 then. They brought me along because I was stronger than most adults already and my accomplices were one in his 70s and the other was about as tough physically as the Pillsbury doughboy.
Seemed like fun at the time but it could've ruined my life I guess.

Sounds like the kind of story a clever guy like me could make up for clout, but that's not what I call clout.
But if you any of you guys/gals are skeptical I'll still settle for credit for making up a good lie.

You all are the first people outside my family I have ever told about this. They say confession is good for the soul, but I don't have one.
I don't think any of you have one either, but even if I'm wrong about you I know I don't have one. But I also know you don't need one to be good.
Good enough, at least.

Edited to remove political reference.
I actually kinda like her personally and she was pretty shocked by that story and obviously wished she wasn't there. What was she supposed to do, call the cops about an unsubstantiated 60 year old murder confession? I could've done that too, but I didn't either.

Asked a cop I knew about this sort of thing years later. He said it's not the kind of thing that would even get investigated as there was no proof of a crime other than the story. Probably wasn't even a missing persons report, and if there was the records were long gone by now.

[Edited on 23-4-2022 by SWIM]

[Edited on 23-4-2022 by SWIM]

[Edited on 23-4-2022 by SWIM]

[Edited on 23-4-2022 by SWIM]