Sciencemadness Discussion Board - ANSU mixture questions.

ANSU mixture questions.

JohnyT56 - 5-5-2022 at 11:31

So i've been experimenting with energetics for quite a while now and made some interesting stuff. I want to scale it up to detonations bigger than 3-5 grams and the only explosives i have acces to that can easily be bulked are ammonium nitrate based. I don't have acces to nitromethane or aluminium powder, and after a lot of reserach i've come to the conclusion that the ammonium nitrate sugar dynamon mixture would be the next best choice, as its quite a bit more sensitive than ANFO and a little bit more powerful as well. This is the part i'm wondering about, just how sensitive is it. I assume there is nothing more to it than dry mixing coffee milled ammonium nitrate with powdered sugar in the correct quantities? I have my own reliable ETN blasting cap. I plan on starting with a small oxygen balanced ANSU 85:15 charge of around 500g and according to what other people used 12g of plastiscized ETN should be enough to detonate it which seems odd. I expected it to need a bigger booster. It will not be heavily confined, only in a small plastic jar. Will this really be enough to achieve full detonation?

B(a)P - 5-5-2022 at 12:14

In industry the boosters they use for ANFO, which is typically a PETN TNT mix pressed to a density of ~1.6 g/cm3, is nearly the size of the main charge you are proposing. The recommended minimum booster charge is around 400 g depending on the main charge mix being used. To establish a blast front you are going to need more than 500 g if your intention is to have it unconfined. How much research did you say you had done? I would concede that there is not a wealth of information out there on ammonium nitrate sugar mix as it is typically a go to for terrorist organisations, but there is a wealth of available information on ANFO.
IMHO 12 g of ETN stuck into the side of a loose pile of ammonium nitrate and sugar will end up as a cloud of ammonium nitrate and sugar. It is worth noting that jumping from 5 g to 500 g is not trivial.

JohnyT56 - 5-5-2022 at 13:42

I know there is not nearly enough info available, but all youtube videos i've seen with ANSU use a small booster. There's a video of a 30kg detonation with only 50g plastic EN as a booster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Ulwz_4grU
I believe it is a lot more sensitive and easy to set off than ANFO. I've reado nthis forum that someone detonated like 1 kilogram with only 5 grams AP in a normal cap.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 6-5-2022 at 02:17

The sugar is condition ? If you can use for example resin from the Pine, sensitivity will much better. 1g ETN will enough.
The resin is diluted in alcohol and mixed with AN 90 / resin 10. And evaporate ethanol.
Final density is recommend 0,8 - 1,0 g/cc.

JohnyT56 - 6-5-2022 at 03:42

What do you mean pine resin, i guess i could use that if i find it anywhere but I don't think anyone sells it. Do you mean the pine essential oil or those solid chunks like beeswax and then dissolve them in alchohol? Will sensitivity be too bad with sucrose though? I prefer to use that because it is easier to find and a 12g booster is not that much if its enough.

unionised - 6-5-2022 at 04:28

Not my field, but I'm guessing at this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosin

JohnDoe13 - 6-5-2022 at 06:31

Just use commercial pine turpentine. Simply RED discovered this mixture years ago and shared the information with me. Very good composition with very good sensitivity.

[Edited on 6-5-2022 by JohnDoe13]

JohnyT56 - 6-5-2022 at 07:02

Can you share some more details about this mixture and how you prepare the charge? I can't find anything about it on the forums. Just mix the anhydrous ammonium nitrate powder with diluted pine turpentine with ethanol or isporpyl and let the alchohol evaporate? The ratio after evaporation should be 90:10 by weight? How sensitive is this composition exactly is it cap sensitive? If it can detonate with under 3-4 grams ETN i can just make a bigger blasting cap and not bother making a booster.

JohnDoe13 - 6-5-2022 at 08:25

No ethanol. Just 5 % turpentine. Of course small booster is needed. It's ANFO with better initiation sensitivity and performance.

The information is already in this forum by the way.

Bigger blasting cap is nonsense.

[Edited on 6-5-2022 by JohnDoe13]

simply RED - 6-5-2022 at 10:53

That was more than 10 years ago... Anyway, best mixture was maybe 5% turpentine and 3% Al powder (flake if possible).

Always did this with 100g (or more) TNT equivalent booster.

[Edited on 6-5-2022 by simply RED]

JohnyT56 - 6-5-2022 at 14:06

Ah okay right yeah no way i can do a 100g TNT equivalent booster since i'm quite limited on recources and i don't have acces to aluminium powder. If that's required for your pine mixture then i'll just stick with the sugar mixture. I'll increase it to a 20g ETN booster for the 500g and hope that its enough. I can also add 1% copper oxide as i've read it increases sensitivity. I really think it'll be enough of a booster if that guy on youtube managed to detonate 30kg with 50g ETN unconfined. Ammonium nitrate+glycerin ANFO is really insensitive right?

MineMan - 6-5-2022 at 16:21

There is so much information here. And there is even research papers on AN compounds. I have even seen AN DDT in the open! No joke.

Anyways. I don’t really understand your project and goals. And I don’t see how I can support it if it’s not research. But this discussion is so confusing considering the information available on the forum.

Also, ANFO sucks. Why even talk about it here… unless your breaking rock with cheap explosives. Anfo is used because it’s cheap…. Not because it’s great. Talking about it outside of designing a blast is ridiculous. Not to mention the best blasts use blends…

Dynamite was better than anfo, but it’s all aboot costs.

But if your that interested in a do there are jobs in California where you can make $90 an hour working with it with no prior experience

JohnyT56 - 6-5-2022 at 16:40

No one mentioned ANFO in this conversation, only "ANFO" with pine oil instead of fuel oil which is supposedly better. Anyways, there's no real "purpose" to this project other than it being a fun hobby. I want to do a relatively cheap medium scale detonation and wanted to ask some tips about it here.

MineMan - 6-5-2022 at 17:36

Quote: Originally posted by JohnyT56

No one mentioned ANFO in this conversation, only "ANFO" with pine oil instead of fuel oil which is supposedly better. Anyways, there's no real "purpose" to this project other than it being a fun hobby. I want to do a relatively cheap medium scale detonation and wanted to ask some tips about it here.

A lot of it is common sense and really thought experiments. If you model it out in your head you will be shocked how your brian acts like a super computer and can model stuff. Anyways. Low density AN mixtures with a fuel oil are not that much of an interest. Water gel would be far more interesting.

Point being please doing something novel or interesting Esther than post on a topic that has been discussed already. Or read what has been posted.

papaya - 6-5-2022 at 17:46

OK, I think this is an opportunity when I can share one of my discovered AN compositions (as far as I know no one before reported about this mixture, I've testesd it 2 years ago), that requiers NO boosters(just a 0.6-1g cap), is quite powerful (much higher brisance than ANFO type things, NON-hygroscopic,detonates completeli in 16mm diameter plastic tube, and easy to preparae. Composition is - 6:1 mass ratio of Ammonium nitrate to MSM (methyl sulfonyl methane, food suppliment, or simply DMSO2). This mixture form an eutectic solution at 140° C - meaning they melt and dissolve in each other, without any decomposition reaction at that temp. Then the melt is solidified and crushed into powder. Done! Ready to use. Quantities as small as 7-10grams are reliably detonated. DMSO2 being less water soluble renders mixture less hygroscopic than pure AN! Also it contains sulfur in molecule which somehow sensitizes AN compositions. Just try it. Very powerful, also replacing some of MSM with Al powder makes it even MORE poweful(completely destroying steel plates apart at 50% stoicometric Al). Hopefully no one is going to patent it based on this post.

MineMan - 6-5-2022 at 19:58

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

OK, I think this is an opportunity when I can share one of my discovered AN compositions (as far as I know no one before reported about this mixture, I've testesd it 2 years ago), that requiers NO boosters(just a 0.6-1g cap), is quite powerful (much higher brisance than ANFO type things, NON-hygroscopic,detonates completeli in 16mm diameter plastic tube, and easy to preparae. Composition is - 6:1 mass ratio of Ammonium nitrate to MSM (methyl sulfonyl methane, food suppliment, or simply DMSO2). This mixture form an eutectic solution at 140° C - meaning they melt and dissolve in each other, without any decomposition reaction at that temp. Then the melt is solidified and crushed into powder. Done! Ready to use. Quantities as small as 7-10grams are reliably detonated. DMSO2 being less water soluble renders mixture less hygroscopic than pure AN! Also it contains sulfur in molecule which somehow sensitizes AN compositions. Just try it. Very powerful, also replacing some of MSM with Al powder makes it even MORE poweful(completely destroying steel plates apart at 50% stoicometric Al). Hopefully no one is going to patent it based on this post.

That is very impressive. This post will serve as your IP. As far as a patent MSM is expensive… at least for supplements. $30 a pound. Unless it is $1-3 I don’t see it happening. Also, unless it gives better results than emulsion. Maybe it does? If you cast it the AN mixture should be at a density of 1.6-1.75. Why crush it into powder?? Perhaps this hits 7kms?

papaya - 6-5-2022 at 20:20

I have tried melt cast mixture about 20g in a 20mm diameter plastic tube, two attempts both failed. First was 0.8g cap only, second one was 5g of the same composotion crushed powder on main charge. Second one only powder part went ddt, but main charge still failed. Maybe not enough diameter or needs a stronger booster than that - Still, even in powder form it is not like ETN or RDX in brisance, in terms of brisance, it is not surprize that was not enough for purpose. But I hope someone on this forum may be interested enough to get the melt cast work! Improve! Thats why I share. One improvement is partially substituting MSM with Al as I mentioned - not only makes it more powerful, also serves as an anti-cakeing agent, i.e. physical stability.. On commercial usage side- fortunately NO, one of the products is toxic sulfur dioxide which will not allow them to use this as blasting agent.

[Edited on 7-5-2022 by papaya]

MineMan - 7-5-2022 at 01:54

Can you please keep in touch on here? I don’t see why it cannot detonate. With a strong 3 gram cap

papaya - 7-5-2022 at 03:00

I will report IF some day I go for it and retry, I've run out of my MSM, which I synthesized from DMSO, whisch itself is a liquid fuel to consider. Also now I lack of strong booster compound like ETN. So anybody is free to test and hopefully report here. Main reason of failure generally is too high density in AN/ fuel (generally any oxidizer/fuel which a!one are not HEs) compsositions, unless you make it somehow too sensitive. BTW, when I talked about addition of Al powder it was NOT into the melt, but afterwards (keeping OB=0). However now I Think that if Al can be added directly into the melt and then cast - thah potentially CAN be a thing!

JohnyT56 - 7-5-2022 at 05:24

Papaya, your methyl sulfonyl methane mixture can detonate unconfined in just a plastic jar? If it can, without a booster then that sounds great. The supplement is not available here, but i can easily order it from ebay, https://www.ebay.com/itm/193977618851?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&a...
So to get things right, you mix the ammonium nitrate and the methyl sulfonyl methane 85:15 as dry powders first and then heat them on electric stove until the mixture melts at 140C and then you pour it somewhere and crush it in a coffee mill after solidifying? I'll try it first as a powder and if it detonates, i might try the melt cast mixture as well without crushing it with a bigger booster like 20 grams ETN 500 grams base charge. I'll keep you updated and post pictures if it ends up working. Interesting composition by the way, how did you end up finding it?

papaya - 7-5-2022 at 06:31

Exactly as you wrote, just more precise calculation gives 86:14 AN/MSM ratio, but doesn't matter much. Yes it goes off in plastic tubes - larger diameter is better, if you do large like 50g charge then you can take 35-50mm diameter and have not too short charge. No need for end caps - I just used regular tape. For reliable first try be sure charge density is around 1.0g/ ml not higher, then you can try to compress powder if you want to experiment. Pre- dry your components first, then weigh then mix and gently melt together. No worries about catching fire - it is not combustable! Please that MSM tendy to sublimate at elevated temperatures, therefore cover your vessel with something. I just used glass beaker and covered it with anoher glassware. If some crystals depoyit on cold surfaces you can scoop them back into melt and mix. Usually it is much easier to melt dropwise- add some small amount of mixture to the melt, wait until all dissolves then add again, etc. Occasionaly mix to not overheat the bottom, the melt is not viscous at all, not like rcandy.. In the end you must get homogenous transparent slightly yellow melt, no turbidity, undissolved salts,etc. Pour on a cold metalic surface, preferably as a thin layer - it is easier to break apart later. When solid- crush by your method, finer is better but table salt like dimensions is fine enough. Too fine may be worse - it can clamp together, especially if you grind freshly prepared mix. When I did this I just stored the solidified material in plastic bag for a day to let it Crash fully crystallize and become rock hard and only then I grided. Fresh material is somewhat soft - it is normal, just few hours to a day to solidify, just keep away from moisture. Thats what I can remember this time. Good luck!

Laboratory of Liptakov - 7-5-2022 at 10:15

If you have sugar, you also have rolls. The mixture AN + 15% croissant at a density of 0.8 g / cc is sensitive to Cap. No. 8.
Tried, confirmed. The dry croissant is crushed into 2 x 2 mm granules and mixed with AN + a little water. The mixture is dried at 80 - 100 C. Caution, occasionally the croissant reacts with AN at high temperature. (at 170 C) The recommended density is 0.6 - 0.8 g / cc. Thus pretty a fluffy mixture. Best final grain are 3x3 mm. But 2x2 works also. Critical diameter 30 mm.

[Edited on 7-5-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

MineMan - 7-5-2022 at 11:14

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

I will report IF some day I go for it and retry, I've run out of my MSM, which I synthesized from DMSO, whisch itself is a liquid fuel to consider. Also now I lack of strong booster compound like ETN. So anybody is free to test and hopefully report here. Main reason of failure generally is too high density in AN/ fuel (generally any oxidizer/fuel which a!one are not HEs) compsositions, unless you make it somehow too sensitive. BTW, when I talked about addition of Al powder it was NOT into the melt, but afterwards (keeping OB=0). However now I Think that if Al can be added directly into the melt and then cast - thah potentially CAN be a thing!

That was my idea. It would be silly to exclude the aluminum. Perhaps 2 percent microballoon will be added too. Or red phosphorus and copper oxide will surly get it to kick. Adding a bit of hexamine will make a difference as well

JohnyT56 - 7-5-2022 at 14:32

What?? Dry pre-made croissant dough after cooking? I don't understand what you mean. I know AN detonates with flour but there are other things in the croissant dough as well. Have you tried this mixture before?

MineMan - 7-5-2022 at 19:02

Quote: Originally posted by JohnyT56

What?? Dry pre-made croissant dough after cooking? I don't understand what you mean. I know AN detonates with flour but there are other things in the croissant dough as well. Have you tried this mixture before?

I get the perception you would benefit greatly by reading more threads on this site and watching YouTube videos

JohnDoe13 - 7-5-2022 at 21:21

You can also achieve VERY good results with well dried donkey shit. Read Urbanski for more information.

MineMan - 7-5-2022 at 21:35

Quote: Originally posted by JohnDoe13

You can also achieve VERY good results with well dried donkey shit. Read Urbanski for more information.

That was page 313 volume 3 right? For me it didn’t work but I tried mule shit, and while the author explicitly warns against it I thought it would still work.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 7-5-2022 at 22:27

Main error of the MineMan was used the Mule shit. Because donkey shit work always from No.8. ......

Laboratory of Liptakov - 7-5-2022 at 22:28

However, I wrote that the croissant works. And it's verified. It contains fats, dextrin, yeast and other ingredients that increase sensitivity. I used to have an accurate video preparation on YouTube. With test of sensitivity on No.8. But the video was soon blocked. The essence and key to success is low density (0.5 - 0.8) and larger grain. (3 - 4 mm).
But this whole thread is basically fun. If (here) someone is interested in huge charges, and asks questions in this regard, they are suspicious. Sesearchers (usually) such qouestion not putting.

MineMan - 7-5-2022 at 22:28

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Main error of the MineMan was used the Mule shit. Because donkey shit work always from No.8. ......

I was trying to rise above your greatness and I failed.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-5-2022 at 01:52

I am not chemist. Only inventor without deeper knowledge. Only my feeling for a new mixtures is higher. Similar a like some musicians has feeling for tones, sing exactly and wonderfull wihout study of theory of sing. And they alone don´t know why.
But using donkey shit is base of all research.........

Etanol - 11-5-2022 at 08:38

Oh. Forget ANSU. It is very hygroscopic. This is an old school example that shows that ammonium nitrate mixtures with any fuel can explode.
The stichiometric mixture of ammonium nitrate with wheat flour is easier. It is not hygroscopic. It has the same critical diameter of 20-22mm at 0.9g/cm3. It is 4% more powerful than ANSU.
Incidentally, ANFO detonates in a diameter of 30 mm at 0.9g/cm3 if special heat treatment has passed and became porous.

[Edited on 11-5-2022 by Etanol]

Ankit1612 - 26-12-2022 at 12:20

anyone can mention mixtures of urea nitrate?

Etanol - 27-12-2022 at 04:09

Quote: Originally posted by Ankit1612

anyone can mention mixtures of urea nitrate?

urea nitrate-ammonia nitrate?

Ankit1612 - 29-12-2022 at 08:32

Any mixture other than,
Urea nitrate-ammonium nitrate,
Urea nitrate-aluminium powder.

can i use urea nitrate-potassium permangnate, urea nitrate-sucrose mixture?
if yes then please mention the ratio.And it's detonation velocity.

[Edited on 29-12-2022 by Ankit1612]

[Edited on 29-12-2022 by Ankit1612]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 29-12-2022 at 10:02

You can use Urea nitrate in system Wrappolite. Without exact ratios. Without aluminium powder. Without potassium permanganate. VoD will cca 4000m/s.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=159189

Ankit1612 - 29-12-2022 at 11:30

That's looks amazing!!
i'll try it..

But i want to know that, i can use urea nitrate and KMnO4,sucrose mixture?
Because i've some amount of urea nitrate and i want to detonate it.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 29-12-2022 at 13:26

KMnO4 is not compatabile with urea nitrate. It can starting self - burning process I guess. Sucrose is for AN (and UN) weak fuel and not provide any advantage. Against Alu foil or alu powder, which is super fuel for any energetic mixture. Using KMnO4 and sucrose is it's pointless. It won't make anything better. (At using urea nitrate as main active compound.)

Ankit1612 - 29-12-2022 at 19:38

what about urea nitrate-PETN??

karolus28 - 9-7-2023 at 11:18

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

Composition is - 6:1 mass ratio of Ammonium nitrate to MSM

Okay, so I tried this today. 35g of the mixture with 1,5g of CuO added while still molten, stirred it so that it solidified into small chunks. I attempted to detonate it with ~2g ETN with a thick round cardboard body, underground, but unfortunetly it didn't work. The MSM was pure supplement grade.

I was able to make it pop with a strong hammer blow. It doesn't seem to pop without iron/copper oxide.

I will definitely try it with aluminum.

As a side note, I'm kinda frustrated as the only things i've been able to set off without a booster is ANNM and ANSU with 5% dichromate. Now I'm looking around to see whether I can find an AN based booster mixture that is made up of relatively accesible and cheap materials, so no aluminum, NM or perchlorates(and I want to avoid dichromate). I also tried ammotropin (91:9 AN/Hexamine + a few % of TACN) in a metal case and it failed also, perhaps I just suck at making things go boom. I'm not asking to be spoonfed, but I welcome anything that makes ammonium nitrate very sensitive.

Maybe I'm being picky and since i already ordered 1kg of flake, i might drop that idea

papaya - 9-7-2023 at 16:04

An:MSM produced by a co-melting method never declined to detonate, even in plastic PP water tubes of about 16mm internal diameter, only thing I guess iwas wrong s that the melt must be puverized after cooling (it takes several hours to a day to completely solidify from somewhat waxy state) and that is done with coffee grinder the best. Melt cast will not work even with ETN, at least not in that quantities maybe. For pulverised stuff no need for any boosters - as small as 500mg primary is enough, maybe even less. Additives like oxides etc wdre never tested, only Al powder PARTIALLY replacing some MSM gives extremely powerful mixtures. Also - ammotropin not working is a big red flag, it may be something with your AN?? ammotropin is serious and sensitive stuff, only problem is it likes moisture too much, but otherwise its extremely easy to set off, that is wierd you have problem s. Maybe recrystalize and properly dry your AN first.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-7-2023 at 02:03

Papaya has absolut truth. Ammotropin is very sensitive without any next adding. Is sensitive on 0.5g primary. At density 1.25/g cm 3. Problem is in your AN, maybe hexamine. But almost sure in AN.

ShotBored - 10-7-2023 at 07:16

Quote: Originally posted by karolus28

I also tried ammotropin (91:9 AN/Hexamine + a few % of TACN) in a metal case and it failed also, perhaps I just suck at making things go boom. I'm not asking to be spoonfed, but I welcome anything that makes ammonium nitrate very sensitive.

Agreed with papaya/LL.

What is the color/consistency of your AN? Any discoloration or clumpiness may indicate the presence of moisture...even 0.5% moisture can screw things up. It has to be extremely dry...in my industry any AN with moisture over 0.05% moisture is redried until it meets the requirement, as it screws everything up otherwise.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-7-2023 at 10:51

karolus28.......Do you basic test...?... pure (and dry) NH4NO3 has melting point 169.6 Celsia...... :cool:

...(boiling 210 C + decompose)

karolus28 - 11-7-2023 at 16:05

Thanks for help,
It definitely must be the AN, even though I'm sure it has no additives besides MgO coating(34N fertiliser, fully dissolves, very slight yellow tinge when dissolved, grows nice nitrate-like crystals), I did a recryst and its drying. I assume the best way to dehydrate it would be to first drive off the water at low heat on a pan and hotplate with a fan blowing on it and then raise the temperature above 100*C and keep raising it until something like 130*C?

[Edited on 12-7-2023 by karolus28]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-7-2023 at 22:40

There is nothing wrong with nitrate from fertilizer. If long (10cm) crystals form, it is pure AN. Proven drying method: 1) Put 500g AN from crystallization on a stainless steel pan. 2) While stirring constantly, increase the temperature up to 170 Celsius. You create liquid. 3) stop the heat supply and constantly stir with a stainless steel spoon. AN will begin to change itself into (anhydrous) crystals of 1 - 3 mm in size. During crystal formation, stirring requires great force and speed. At AN temperature of approximately 40 C, store these crystals hermetically. The whole process takes no longer than 30-40 minutes.

Etanol - 15-7-2023 at 07:12

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Ammotropin is very sensitive without any next adding. Is sensitive on 0.5g primary. At density 1.25/g cm 3.

At 1.25? Have you checked?
It seemed that an Ammotropin is easily detonated only at 0.6-0.9g/cc.
Above 1.0 g/cc it detonates only from a powerful intermediate charge.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 15-7-2023 at 08:25

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3247033A/en

The foregoing measurements illustrate the fact that the explosives of this invention can be made with reaction additional confinement of the steel walls can be shown to approximately offset the effect of the diameter reduc tion. It will be noted that the explosive composition of this invention behaves under these conditions as an almost ideal explosive up to a density of 1.25 gm./cc., beyond which the velocity falls off with further densification. Thus, under these conditions the composition of this invention is much more brisant than the conventional materials, as is evidenced by the much higher detonation velocity. It is also capable of detonating at considerably higher loading density and therefore has a substantially higher possible bulk strength than the two conventional mixtures. Therefore, performance differences between the explosives of this invention and conventional ammonium nitrate-fuel materials when they are densified are clearly marked and unexpected, and as the data in FIG- URE 1 illustrate, the differences are of such a magnitude that for many practical purposes where high bulk strength and high brisance are needed, the explosives of this invention can now qualify Whereas conventional ammonium nitrate-fuel mixtures cannot be used.

Yes, for best sensitivity, respectively on primary only, is better 0.9 g /cc.

EF2000 - 4-11-2023 at 07:02

Since this thread ascended from simple ANSU question to unexpected revelations about AN/DMSO2, I'm going to post it here.
I'm very interested in that mixture, not only because it's so simple and powerful, but also because it's not hygroscopic.
So I decided to add to it another interesting mixture, Lithex, hoping that DMSO2 will protect it from moisture too. Since LiClO₄ is very soluble in most solvents and hot dimethyl sulfone is excellent solvent (like DMSO but very hot), I decided to try 1:1 mix.

First I heated 1 part DMSO2 powder in a beaker on electric stove. When it melted to clear liquid I added 6 parts of AN in small increments. Since it's fertilizer grade AN, it had some troubles dissolving, there was a lot of those white granules on bottom. But I stirred like hell with a spoon put through hole in plastic wrap and added more heat.
At first it all crumbled, like all liquid phase was absorbed in AN granules, but then AN started melting+dissolving too and it almost cleared.
Added 1.4 part of hexamine, it rather quickly dissolved. Then slowly added 5.6 parts of lithium perchlorate (adjusted for water content of trihydrate, it's ~8.5 parts). My LiP is very hard plate-like clumps, almost impossible to break, so it had troubles dissolving too, but determined stirring and adding heat helped again.
Addition of LiP made liquid more yellow-white, so when everything dissolved it looked like condensed milk, tan homogenous liquid with no clumps or granules left.

Since prospect of hot, skin-penetrating solvent with a lot of lithium salt getting in contact with any part of me scared me too much (kinda lethal mood stabilization), I decided not to pour it on prepared metal surface and let it solidify in a beaker.
After cooling, it's very viscous liquid, resembling condensed milk even more.

On attached pictures: beaker with almost complete mixture during heating (some crystals of LiP still left)
Same beaker slowly cooling, more wrap to not let DMSO2 and hexamine evaporate

[Edited on 4-11-2023 by EF2000]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-11-2023 at 02:44

OK, interestling....So you mixed
----------5.9%.....DMSO2..................OB -129
--------35.5%.....NH4NO3..............OB + 20
---------8.3% ....hexamine...........OB -205.5
-------33.0%.....LiClO4.................OB +60.15
------17.2%.......H2O..................OB zero

Final oxygen balance should by + 2.292 which is relatively good for firt attempt. Best mixtures are usually with negative oxygen balance, usually from - 5 to - 20. But no wonder the mixture is liquid. You have there 17.2% water from perchlorate trihydrate. If will mixture is sensitive to No. 8 it will be a miracle....... :cool:

EF2000 - 5-11-2023 at 05:55

More precisely, it was:
60 g of AN
10 g of DMSO2
56 g of LiP + 29 g of water (85 g of trihydrate, technical grade, from pyro supplier)
14 g of hexamine
Thus, wet mix is 169 g if nothing evaporated and dry weight is 140 g (intended).

Of course, in hindsight, it would be better to start with dried components, and even better to first separately make AN/DMSO2 and Lithex, then combine them.
But now I guess I have to dry it. Maybe pouring it on a pan and heating on low heat will drive out water without sublimating dimethyl sulfone.

[Edited on 5-11-2023 by EF2000]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-11-2023 at 14:41

Yes. If the intended 140g mixture will works, it will interesting mixture.... :cool:

Hey Buddy - 8-11-2023 at 09:37

Quote: Originally posted by JohnyT56

So i've been experimenting with energetics for quite a while now and made some interesting stuff. I want to scale it up to detonations bigger than 3-5 grams and the only explosives i have acces to that can easily be bulked are ammonium nitrate based. I don't have acces to nitromethane or aluminium powder, and after a lot of reserach i've come to the conclusion that the ammonium nitrate sugar dynamon mixture would be the next best choice, as its quite a bit more sensitive than ANFO and a little bit more powerful as well. This is the part i'm wondering about, just how sensitive is it. I assume there is nothing more to it than dry mixing coffee milled ammonium nitrate with powdered sugar in the correct quantities? I have my own reliable ETN blasting cap. I plan on starting with a small oxygen balanced ANSU 85:15 charge of around 500g and according to what other people used 12g of plastiscized ETN should be enough to detonate it which seems odd. I expected it to need a bigger booster. It will not be heavily confined, only in a small plastic jar. Will this really be enough to achieve full detonation?

Not sure exactly what youre after, but if you want to scale up without getting complicated, and you dont have issues with needing to make a mobile explosive charge, (as in: emplace and detonate on site), then you can really make massive dust initiator blasts for really cheap. These were developed in military for destroying structures. They use high explosives in military, small charges, only a couple hundred grams of C4 and detonate it under a particulate fuel. The pressure signature is massive, and the detonation looks impressive because it uses oxygen from the air to complete the detonation.
This picture is a dust initiator charge from around 2015 or so. It is detonated from IIRC only 3 lbs of ammonium nitrate, maybe even 2 lbs, (I cant quite recall), in the form of tannerite mix. It was initiated by shooting with a rifle bullet. On top of the AN was emplaced probably around 30-40 lbs of powdered sugar, tightly confined with pressure from saran wrap. The detonation profile was massive. Very cheap and simple. the scale of the picture is around approximately 20 meters + in width but the detonation profile was even bigger than that , maybe 35-40 m.

Screenshot at 2023-11-08 11-26-32.png - 530kB

[Edited on 8-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]

EF2000 - 13-11-2023 at 09:56

Quote: Originally posted by Hey Buddy

This picture is a dust initiator charge from around 2015 or so. It is detonated from IIRC only 3 lbs of ammonium nitrate, maybe even 2 lbs, (I cant quite recall), in the form of tannerite mix. It was initiated by shooting with a rifle bullet. On top of the AN was emplaced probably around 30-40 lbs of powdered sugar, tightly confined with pressure from saran wrap. The detonation profile was massive. Very cheap and simple. the scale of the picture is around approximately 20 meters + in width but the detonation profile was even bigger than that , maybe 35-40 m.
[Edited on 8-11-2023 by Hey Buddy]

Really impressive, it's something like 224-298 MJ yield (56-74.5 kg TNTeq by energy)
By powdered sugar, you mean that fine powder used as icing for pastry, right? I guess, flour or starch will work well too, while granulated sugar may have problems due to its moisture content.
And, most importantly, did it smell like caramel after the blast?

underground - 14-11-2023 at 12:40

recrystallizing AN and sugar would be the best way to mix them. Dissolving AN ans SU together in water then evaporate it.

[Edited on 14-11-2023 by underground]

dettoo456 - 15-11-2023 at 09:28

If you try to mix via solvation, it’ll be a headache to try to dry (and maybe re-prill) the powder afterwards - especially in any amounts over 500g. I’d say to just use the AN/Su mix as a slurry at that point and maybe add in a gelatinizer and fuel like TiH2 or Al to boost brisance. If the mix is meant as a FAE then a slurry may outperform the original dry form.

Hey Buddy - 17-11-2023 at 14:55

Quote: Originally posted by EF2000

Yes the blast was just pastry sugar for icing from the grocery store. I dont know if wrapping it tightly in saran wrap contributed to its detonation character, but i mention it because I wrapped arbitrary bundles of maybe 4 lbs or so as bricks and stacked them on top of the AN. The AN was in a clear plastic container, doped with sensitizer.
Pretty much any particulate fuel works. Flour/grain etc. It seems to me that the finer and more air buoyant the material the better. Ground charcoal also works well. Boron is the best in terms of energy output that I know of, then Al, then C. Any bulk material that is 33% + in N can also be detonated as a tertiary explosive. You can detonate urea without an intermixed oxidizer if you detonate it with something high velocity with enough overdriving mass. It will use atmospheric oxygen to complete redox the best it can and detonate. The detonation of urea seems like it's about as powerful as AN, judging from memory.
It was developed because light patrols can carry small amount of explosives, then use materials on site to amplify destructive force, destroy rail cars, structures etc. without having to man-carry heavy explosive loads to the objective. Very handy,

Sir_Gawain - 17-11-2023 at 15:14

Quote: Originally posted by Hey Buddy

Please don’t carry these bundles around with you.

EF2000 - 18-11-2023 at 00:40

Quote: Originally posted by Hey Buddy

It was developed because light patrols can carry small amount of explosives, then use materials on site to amplify destructive force, destroy rail cars, structures etc. without having to man-carry heavy explosive loads to the objective. Very handy,

Handy, though if caught on such a mission, would be hard to explain to enemy military police why did you stole a sack of sugar from officers' canteen. "Our commander is feeling down and needs some pastry to cheer up, you see..."

Fedoroff says in Volume 5, D1579 that:

Quote:

The overall explosibility of several materials when compared to Pittsburgh coal, the currently accepted standard with an explosibiliry index of 1, is as follows: Corn starch (com[mercia]l) 7; wheat flour 4; sugar, powdered 9.6; methyl methacrylate polymer 6.3; cellulose acetate >10; magnesium, milled, 7.7; and aluminum, atomized, 2.5

So, aluminium mixed with powdered sugar, starch or even cellulose acetate can be interesting fuel. Metal powder providing energy density and highly flammable organic powder providing reliable ignition.

By energy density, Ti should be superior to Al, but titanium powder is usually much coarser, so it's ranked lower in explosibility and max pressure in studies like Overview of dust explosibility characteristics for example. And if someone is completely pyro-maniacal, they can try even Zr or ferrocerium dust (both wouldn't wait for initiation, though)

[Edited on 18-11-2023 by EF2000]