Sciencemadness Discussion Board - HELP! EU/DE/FR: Impending infrastructural apocalypse and possibility of civil war

HELP! EU/DE/FR: Impending infrastructural apocalypse and possibility of civil war

stoichiometric_steve - 5-8-2022 at 14:35

Dear friends, our incompetent German government, along with their French counterparts, have willingly pushed us very close already to a climactic situation with their idiotic energy policies.

Our gas reserves are running out quickly, while nuclear power plants in France face historically high numbers of shut down reactors due to urgent maintenance.

This poses an imminent threat to the stability of the entire european power grid, which has had alarmingly high counts of stability issues in the past years and months.

With home heating in France depending largely on electricity, decoupling from the paneuropean grid to avoid the spreading of inevitable local or even nationwide blackouts has become basically unavoidable, unless hardly enforceable, drastic measures of energy rationing are implemented.

In winter, we will come very close to or actually have to face cataclysmic infrastructural meltdown and subsequent civil unrest with enormous risk of looting and war due to an energy and food crisis, being facilitated and dramatically accelerated by continued inadequate Covid infection control, which in turn allowed numerous viral immune escape variants of skyrocketing infectiousness to emerge.

In light of this situation — which i hope we can still work to avoid — i would like to call upon every member in the general area to help form alliances and instate a network of mutual assistance.

I am not exactly sure how to organize, since we as a society are now fatally dependent on uninterrupted energy and telecommunications infrastructure.

Let us come together, at least in spirit, and put our minds to work to save the day.

It is imperative we act as one, and do so immediately.

[Edited on 5-8-2022 by stoichiometric_steve]

Rainwater - 5-8-2022 at 14:50

Do what is right, even when no one is watching.

Matthew 24

brubei - 5-8-2022 at 15:35

Brace yourself.

I live in forest, ready to burn all trees to get heat !

stoichiometric_steve - 5-8-2022 at 15:47

Quote: Originally posted by brubei

I live in forest, ready to burn all trees to get heat!

Let's hope the next heat wave/drought won't beat you to it.

[Edited on 5-8-2022 by stoichiometric_steve]

WGTR - 5-8-2022 at 16:20

I have a long-time German friend, a “little sister”, that tells me about it. This isn’t a good situation right now. She is still having trouble buying sunflower oil and flour. She said “crazy Germans” were crossing the border into France to buy baking goods, leaving the stores empty with shopping carts piled high, panic buying mostly.

Winter in the Texas Hill Country is colder than most people would think. We had no power for about a week, with -14.4C temperatures. Keep lots of warm blankets, lots of stored water to use in the bathroom and kitchen, and non-perishable food. I have a ventless propane fireplace. This was the only thing that kept the house somewhat warm. I also keep a large battery with an inverter to keep the phone charged up and keep the internet modem working (we have fiber).

When things go south, you only have your neighbors to help and to help you. It’s good to make plans with them to see who has what skills and resources. One may have a water well, but a different neighbor may have a solar powered battery backup. With both you can pump water for example.

If one has the room, a solar panel is actually a good load for another solar panel. Most people don’t know that. A 72-cell solar panel outside can transfer heating to a 60-cell panel indoors. Instead of solar panels indoors one can use a series diode string with enough power dissipation rating. It may be enough for heating up a room during the day, especially since German housing construction is more…solid…than here in the US.

Johnny Cappone - 5-8-2022 at 17:19

I am extremely saddened by the way things are unfolding in Europe due to energy policies based not on solid science, pragmatism and long-term foresight, but on political pressure from obscure groups.

France was the only country on that continent that I have visited so far, a charismatic and welcoming people who do not deserve to suffer because of the wrong decisions of political agents who rarely suffer the consequences of the measures they impose. I have some friends in Germany who also tell me that the situation there is not good either.

The last two years have been especially difficult for the world and the possibility of catastrophic events not just in Europe but across the world is frightening and becoming more and more real. I really hope that this will all be over soon and that the European leaders will consider tackling the situation more forcefully.

Our hearts and minds are with you all.
From South America, Johnny.

j_sum1 - 5-8-2022 at 22:26

This was all predicted.
Those who wanted to talk about were labelled as cranks and science deniers and silenced.
Australia is only a couple of steps behind Germany in terms of irresponsible energy policy.
No indication that anyone here is going to learn either. Looks like we too will have large scale economic and social collapse before we turn the corner.

Σldritch - 6-8-2022 at 04:23

I'll go one step further: this was all planned. Calling these politicians and propagandists responsible incompetent is giving them too much credit. There is no need for any of this to happen - but now, due to these obscure groups - it looks like it is. Question is just to which degree.

Anyway, those who see this situation now for what it is, may be receptable to consider this idea/advice seriously: if you need to heat using electricity check this out first: https://condensed-plasmoids.com/

I especially want to bring this quote to light:

Quote:

* Built a 1.3” wide, 12” long reactor producing 2.9 kW of hot water with 840 W of input (COP of 3.4)

* Found that cavitation causes all sorts of transmutations

* Accidentally became radiation sick after an experiment in 2009. Sickness lasted for more than a year

* More details: https://nanospireinc.com/Fusion.html

* Holds US Patents 6,960,307 and 7,517,430 on this discoveries

And i will note that if you are trying to make heat, you can only really improve your efficiency in the case of this method. There are others though. And if it was not clear enough this crisis was manufactured: there it is.

Finally, until someone comes up with a better way to organise this; if you are in Scandinavia consider sending me a PM.

arkoma - 6-8-2022 at 05:07

WGTR--hadn't thought of a backup power source for the fiber modem. Good idea.

WGTR - 6-8-2022 at 12:19

Quote: Originally posted by arkoma

WGTR--hadn't thought of a backup power source for the fiber modem. Good idea.

Thanks! You always need reliable power for the “little” things!

Another tip is that I store a gas powered generator inside. This keeps it warm in between uses. It’s easy to prime and get it ready indoors before wheeling it outside (note to everybody: NEVER start or operate a generator indoors!). It’s also a good idea to let the generator run for a few minutes every weekend to keep it operational.

Texium - 6-8-2022 at 12:48

Quote: Originally posted by Σldritch

Anyway, those who see this situation now for what it is, may be receptable to consider this idea/advice seriously: if you need to heat using electricity check this out first: https://condensed-plasmoids.com/

No. Nobody should be taking crackpot cold fusion schemes seriously under any circumstances…

Fulmen - 6-8-2022 at 13:49

Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve

cataclysmic infrastructural meltdown

Stop being so dramatic. Society isn't some fragile flower, it's what everybody wants. Sure it can get bad, power rationing, supply issues and whatnot. But society won't break over one bad winter,everybody knows that to survive in the long run we are better of cooperating.

Σldritch - 6-8-2022 at 17:32

Quote: Originally posted by Texium

No. Nobody should be taking crackpot cold fusion schemes seriously under any circumstances…

Excuse me? Next, you'll tell me not to believe crackpot theories like informed self-interest, viruses and toxic rocks emitting radiation able to power cities when carefully arranged. Imagine if such a technology existed! Oh, wait, it does. Wish we had it here in Europe. Also, your welder would not work nearly as well, or at all, without this 'cold' (non-equilibrium would be more accurate without going into details) fusion. Just because you don't understand it does not mean it does not happen.

Quote:

No gas, no Haber-Bosch, no ammonia. No ammonia, no food. This is happening at the time of an energy crisis as well as a hunger crisis in MENA with a political class happy to import migrants to sow division among their enemies. The same political class which has declared war against the rural population, namely farmers (look at what is happening in the Netherlands for example), and is all too eager to find distractions from the public health crisis resulting from their crimes against humanity during the COVID crisis. They are clamoring to their power as much as for greed as for to prevent a new government(s) to uncover their crimes, willingly or not.They are now dependent on that power to stay alive, such is their weaknes, they will not let go. Then, obviously, no gas, no energy. No energy, no industry - at all! No industry, no medication for the largely mutilated (dependant) population. No spare parts. All this is exacerbated by the sanctions. All this is to say it can get really, REALLY, bad.

clearly_not_atara - 6-8-2022 at 18:06

I had the idea that one could fill airships with methane (a lifting gas!) and use them to transport natural gas across the Atlantic.

The Hindenburg had a volume of about 200,000 m^3, and required 4-5 days to cross the Atlantic. Europe needs around a billion cubic meters of gas, so around a thousand Hindenburgs would do nicely. But the airships must then be deflated and sent back by ship; this is a little difficult. Apparently, I am not the first to think of it:

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/concept_natural.htm...

https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Shell-AD_Met...

Of course, it would be even more convenient if natural gas plants could be converted to burn hydrogen, which is a much better lifting gas, and would allow a simpler airship design. Hydrogen is easily produced from natural gas by reaction with steam. Unfortunately, hydrogen is extremely corrosive to normal turbine components. (In fact, transporting H2 by airship as a means of shipping energy probably makes more sense than using hydrogen as a means of storing energy).

While this could probably have been done if we had started in 2014, it's hard to imagine building a fleet of airships to transport US/Canadian natural gas to Europe today, to be finished by December. Not only do we barely have time to build the airships, we would also have to build the factories in which we build the airships!

There has been a colossal lack of preparation. While Germany has been panned in the Anglosphere for "appeasement" of Russia w.r.t. Ukraine, in fact they have been splitting the baby. Merkel pushed Yanukovych to associate with the EU in 2013, despite clear Russian objections. But at the same time, Germany continued to implement a policy of Russian energy dependence. You can fight Russia or depend on Russia, but you better not do both.

Anyone familiar with the history knows that Ukraine's independence has been a sore spot for Russia since 1991. Before the Soviet coup against Gorbachev, there was little appetite in Ukraine and Belarus for independence. The USSR was seen as a source of stability and useful trade relations. After the coup, it was a liability, and the population and politicians changed course. This has always been viewed as a deep regret within Russia. Ukraine joining the EU was wildly unpopular within Russia, but demanded by Western Europeans, who at the same time saw themselves as moderates taking a measured stance in contrast to Anglo-American anti-Russian attitudes.

In reality, the Continentals were just clueless. It's one thing to slap Russia, but quite another to do so and not expect them to see it as an insult.

Texium - 6-8-2022 at 19:51

Quote: Originally posted by Σldritch

Just because you don't understand it does not mean it does not happen.

That's where you're wrong. I understand it very well. I understand that the evidence for your so-called "low energy nuclear reactions" is a mixture of wishful thinking, misconstrued results, and flat out lies. I can't believe people still buy into this crap.

Σldritch - 6-8-2022 at 21:54

Quote: Originally posted by Texium

Ok, you caught me, that line was perhaps phrased more provocatively than necessary but IIRC you refuse to read the document. I can't take your dismissals seriously, nor should anyone, when you have not even read it. As long as that remains the case I think your criticism amounts to mere foolishness at best and insults at worst. If you must voice it do so in the relevant thread where it is somewhat on topic at least.

j_sum1 - 6-8-2022 at 22:07

On the issue of fusion, there is still an awful lot of technological obstacles to be overcome before we attain anything resembling feasibility. I personally doubt we will ever get there.
That said, there is an awful lot of untapped potential for low cost, environmentally friendly fission energy that we have not realised yet. Of course there is currently resistance to adopting fission as an energy source, for mostly scaremongering reasons. This resistance is worldwide. About the only positive I see of the current large-scale investment in wind and solar is that when it all comes crashing down (and it will) there may be a greater willingness to embrace fission. If anything useful does happen in the field of fusion then that will be a bonus but it is not something that I think we should be banking on.

Fulmen - 7-8-2022 at 02:41

Quote: Originally posted by Σldritch

No gas

What are you talking about? Europe has a lot of gas, oil and coal. Maybe not enough, but it's not like everything stops dead in it's tracks the moment there is a shortage. And the rest of the world doesn't just stop existing...

Yes it might get bad. Or at least worse than it's been for a long time. But it's not the end of the civilization.

Tsjerk - 7-8-2022 at 06:10

Energy is going to be expensive as fuck, and maybe industry is going to be put on a ration. But come on, Russia was delivering 10-15% of the European gas, coal and oil can come from other places. nothing the loss of can't be managed.

I just closed a new energy contract for a year, starting in four months, paying 2.60 euro per m3 gas and 60/80 cents per kWh low/high. I pay 1.30 26/35 now. Is that expensive? Yes. Will it collapse society? No. Hopefully after this contract things have calmed down.

There is enough gas and infrastructure in Groningen to replace Russian gas in weeks. If what you are afraid of would really happen, the people of Groningen would just have to suffer some more earthquakes, and they would if necessary.

But apocalypse? Don't be ridiculous.

[Edited on 7-8-2022 by Tsjerk]

Nuclear Fission

MadHatter - 7-8-2022 at 17:59

I am 100% in support of nuclear fission and have been for decades. The reactor
accidents in the past are not justification for stopping its use. The "green"
technologies are useful and they contribute to the power grid but will never replace
fission. Reliability and continuity are necessary. The one "green" power that is
generally reliable is hydroelectric unless the source of water dries up. Even that
technology requires substantial construction costs and periodic maintenance.

The biggest problem is the same as always - politicians. There are those who
make the rules and those who are ruled by them. The rule makers exempt
themselves from the rules because they perceive themselves as the the elite who
need to dominate the rest of us. The rest of us should not suffer because of their
snobbery. Don't tell us to give up our hydrocarbon powered cars/trucks and then
fly off in a massive CO₂ generating jet aircraft to private meetings to determine
how the rest of us should live.

Herr Haber - 7-8-2022 at 20:38

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara

While this could probably have been done if we had started in 2014, it's hard to imagine building a fleet of airships to transport US/Canadian natural gas to Europe today, to be finished by December. Not only do we barely have time to build the airships, we would also have to build the factories in which we build the airships!

Last time someone told the Americans "it would take the ressources of a whole country it was about making an atomic bomb.
Coincidence ? Tomorrow is the 9th of August. Some decades ago a plutonium device exploded over Nagasaki. Knowing how big the stock was just years before... well, you all know the history.

But that's all out of topic and your project would not work anyway.
German "Grünen" would certainly object to all the noise those airships would make and block it as they've made France close several reactors. Bird lovers would side with them obviously. France says one thing but does something entirely different. It managed to lose the decades it had in advance in nuclear technology because of sellout politicians.

Not really a prepper, maybe some good habits picked up from the Scouts but if something like Covid strikes again, the war in Ukraine expands out of it's border or China tries something really stupid while we're all watching Russia do something really really stupid I'll be more than ready this time.
Marathon, trail food is so much better than MRE's

RogueRose - 8-8-2022 at 03:20

I'd like to point out one thing that should be pretty obvious but unfortunately it seems it is not. If you are running a generator it is producing 2 things (well 3 if you include exhaust gases/CO2) - electricity & heat. In most cases only one is used & that is the electricity and this is such a massive waste b/c generators are so inefficient (especially small ones) the majority of the energy consumed is actually turned into heat. There are a number of ways to capture the heat from a generator and it is much easier to do with a liquid cooled system as you can use the coolant that is coming off the engine as a heat source for anything from hot water to heating a room.

I'll add more later, but this is something people should think about but I have to get to work..

Σldritch - 8-8-2022 at 05:35

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

Oh yeah, I forget everyone is not aware of this: the Euro is going down the toilet. The financial system of the West has been a ticking time bomb since 1971. It almost exploded 2008 whence we entered a new financial system; that of the central bank cartel that lasted until 2019 when American banks stopped taking European debt as collateral. They did this due to the European banks trying to drag everyone down with them (the great reset). The FED has since then raised rates and is now working against the European banks and not with them, trying to avoid itself imploding too. So knowing this: there is a financial crisis coming, probably no later than by the end of this year, too. But the great reset is still being pushed, the situation getting worse and worse, yet the real crisis has not yet even arrived! And while it may not be the end of civilization, it will most likely be the end of the EU, if not western civilization, and/or the West. Compare it to the Chinese or Russian civil war or the fall of the USSR.

I hope that was coherent enough, I'm not the right person to explain this nor do I entirely grasp the current situation myself.

Metallophile - 8-8-2022 at 07:06

The methane airship idea is clever, but I think air resistance would make this too inefficient. Besides, we can already float natural gas across the ocean using LNG tankers. I'm not really sure why we're not doing this already?

Organikum - 8-8-2022 at 08:28

The end of the world is nigh!

Wait! I think I heard this before.

Won't happen though. All empty promises again.

Not being able to buy toilet paper or sunflower oil is not exactly the end of the world as we know it but a mere inconvenience which does not even come near to what the majority of the worlds population has to endure every day. Spoiled brats syndrome I would say.
The Euro is not collapsing, the per capita dept in Europe is a fraction of the one in the USA and devaluation of the Euro may be be bad for holidays but it will not curb exports but boost them and more profit for european companies is ahead. And before anybody really freezes this winter we open Nordstream II - what we should have done from starters and fuck US fracking gas and the political blackmail coming with it. As the US has always used economic means for political reasons whilst the russian gas comes since 50 years and there was never an attempt to blackmail neverminding the political climate.

So Armageddon is off.

PS: Ukraine was and is all the time happily taking the billions in transit fees for russian gas and they have not cut the pipelines so they better stfu.

[Edited on 8-8-2022 by Organikum]

clearly_not_atara - 8-8-2022 at 09:35

Herr Haber: I admire your fighting spirit, but even the Manhattan Project took three years! We have four months.

Tsjerk - 8-8-2022 at 11:57

Quote: Originally posted by Organikum

Not being able to buy toilet paper or sunflower oil is not exactly the end of the world as we know it but a mere inconvenience which does not even come near to what the majority of the worlds population has to endure every day. Spoiled brats syndrome I would say.
[Edited on 8-8-2022 by Organikum]

What Org says

Herr Haber - 8-8-2022 at 12:05

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara

Herr Haber: I admire your fighting spirit, but even the Manhattan Project took three years! We have four months.

Ok, that's true.
We were also told vaccines took years to develop

Those in position to take advantage of the impending crisis have been getting ready to make a nice profit.
LNG tanker fleet owners certainly go to bed with a smile.

I'm not sure if it's still fighting spirit as far as I'm concerned. I've been announced the end of the world a couple of times, lived through several "crisis", pandemics etc. One thing I'm noticing is that my standards of living slowly erode.
I chose not to live in fear knowing that I'll probably endure anyway and what has to happen will happen.

Gargamel - 8-8-2022 at 13:48

IMHO one cannot have oneself blackmailed by obvious assholes and gangsters.
If that's going to cause some inconvenience I'd be glad to endure it.

I see a lot of creeps coming out of their holes who whine a lot about the coming doom.
In my opinion these are folks that secretly wish for it.

Twospoons - 8-8-2022 at 14:41

Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel

In my opinion these are folks that secretly wish for it.

I tend to agree with that sentiment. Which reminds me of the saying "Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it!"

arkoma - 9-8-2022 at 00:01

So far so good. No flame war yet, but as is usual in these socio-political commentaries, I feel one lurking in the closet. Haven't had the chance to lock a thread yet, BUT I will if needs be.

Now as far as uncertainty goes, NO ONE KNOWS what the hell can happen when you get out of bed tomorrow. My whole life has changed in a few microseconds before.

Keep it VERY civil, please.

Big Boss - 18-8-2022 at 10:01

I think people need to wake up and look beyond the 2 party system. Whether it leans left or right, I don't care. As long as it shifts the West away from the lunacy we're currently all in and towards rational policies and decision making i'll be content.

Tsjerk - 18-8-2022 at 10:12

You do realize all this shit is going on in a place where there is no 2 party system? Read; anywhere but the USA?

Big Boss - 18-8-2022 at 12:23

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

You do realize all this shit is going on in a place where there is no 2 party system? Read; anywhere but the USA?

Give me an example please, the popular parties are always funded by lobbyists that want the same thing whilst giving the illusion of freedom of choice.
Those same parties also get the majority of positive media attention, makes sense, they have the most money behind them.

Tsjerk - 18-8-2022 at 21:53

Maybe we should read arkoma's post again, or not and have this thread closed. Although it was not going anywhere anyway.

Maybe you should read a bit about systems outside the US, also those in the western world. It's not a complete shit show everywhere.

[Edited on 19-8-2022 by Tsjerk]

Organikum - 19-8-2022 at 02:59

Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel

IMHO one cannot have oneself blackmailed by obvious assholes and gangsters.
If that's going to cause some inconvenience I'd be glad to endure it.
.........

Uh, yes, I agree. There is just one little problem here and that is that we are not getting blackmailed but we are the blackmailers. We are not threatened to have gas supply cut off, we are threatening and actively planing to stop importing gas from our highly reliable supplier of 40+ years despite being bound by 15 to 30 year contracts. We will most probably end up paying billions for breaching those contracts without getting any gas, the gas will be burned off at the gas-fields, lets not think of the ecological impact this has.
If you hear in the news some politician in Russia has threatened this or that - and what? Do we start to take any publicity orientated politician seriously? Important are only the company - GAZPROM - and the big boss. And they do not speak such nonsense.
This sword cuts on both directions and it is us who wants to cut it loose and blame the other side for there will be suffering.
Regarding blackmail, you may find on a closer look that sanctions are nothing but blackmail in its purest form: You do as I want or I will hurt you. Sanctions are not sentences spoken by a judge or jury, sanctions are blackmail by the one with more power against a weaker one, includes so called "friends" and there is no legal process, no defence can be mounted, it is bullying nothing else.

So we bring this situation, which will not be nearly as bad as some fear, no civil war over the toilet paper supply chain or such, we bring it upon ourselves. 100% self-inflicted. Completely unnecessary and stupid as when one power ascends to real world domination all others will suffer as total power corrupts totally, this truth you won't deny.

/ORG

j_sum1 - 19-8-2022 at 03:55

Interesting perspective, Organikum.
My thought is that to treat every sanction as a form of blackmail is probably an oversimplification in many cases. And even if leverage is applied, there can be just reasons for applying pressure at a foreign relations level. Relationships between countries and between different people groups is always complex and some nuance is required. In any particular instance, proper contextual and historical understanding is required.

Just a mod request here. Given that this is a political discussion and one that could easily branch in many different directions, could we please add some clarity to opinions expressed by giving a few geographic details. For example, I assume that Organikum's comments about what "We" are doing is from a US perspective. If he is speaking from Germany or the UK or Australia, his words carry quite a different meaning.

I am keen to keep this conversation civil as it currently is. Some clarity helps this.

And, btw, welcome back Organikum. You predate me and are something of a legend here.

Texium - 19-8-2022 at 08:28

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

For example, I assume that Organikum's comments about what "We" are doing is from a US perspective. If he is speaking from Germany or the UK or Australia, his words carry quite a different meaning.

I assumed his comments are from a German perspective given his location is listed as Europe and I have some vague memory of him being from Germany.

I share the perspective of the other mods: this can stay open as long as it remains civil, but since it has little to no direct bearing on amateur science, if it gets nasty I won’t hesitate to close it.

Fulmen - 19-8-2022 at 09:36

It's not blackmail as that involves the threat to divulge some secret. I think coercion or extortion would be more apt. And yes, we are being cut off. Russia has reduced gas exports to Europe significantly (Nord Stream 1 has been reduced to less than half) as a response to economic sanctions.

arkoma - 19-8-2022 at 17:55

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

And, btw, welcome back Organikum. You predate me and are something of a legend here.

second that

Vishenka - 23-8-2022 at 07:40

lol, just move to russia))))

Bmoore55 - 23-8-2022 at 09:18

All of the discussions on political mall feasance aside, the reality for the people of Europe is not a very positive one at the moment. Steve, if you believe your fears are well founded and your energy needs will no longer be met then perhaps it is a good idea to consider familiarizing yourself with alternative forms of generating heat for your home. I am concerned this winter will be very harsh for the German people and if preparations are not made now then many people will succumb to the cold. Furthermore if your energy needs are as dire as you say then it is very likely not just energy for heating, but the supply of food will suffer as well due to difficulties in transporting goods. This will result in people getting very hungry and thus very desperate and desperate people do violent/irrational things. I prey it does not get that bad, but if it does please be prepared to distance yourself and those you love from major population centers. I hope all of this does not come to pass, but if it does then the German people will have to take it upon themselves to endure. For what its worth I do sincerely wish all of the members here who may suffer from these poor decisions the best and I hope they take no offense if I prey for their safety and prosperity. God speed friends.

woelen - 24-8-2022 at 02:59

We should not be overly negative about the near future in Europe. Many people may feel discomfort when they have to live in colder houses (e.g. 17 C instead of 20 C or 21 C), and this will not be fun, but it is of a total different order of magnitude, than what is described here. There will be no famine, major societal collapse, or whatever dystopian scenario one may think of. Economy will get a big pushback, many people become poorer (can buy less for their money), but the EU can handle these things. We have had worse things in the past. I do take some measures, such as making our house less energy-consuming, arranging the installation of an heat-pump and adding a few more solar panels to reduce the costs, but that's all.

Bedlasky - 24-8-2022 at 05:09

Woelen, I don't think that EU can handle this. Concept of EU practically broke up on this. Now every country is on its own. And I am actually terrified by attitude of our government. Their mainly concern is war, EU presidency and stealing. They just tell their citizens to put another sweater on themself and that's solution for the winter. I hope that I will have money for living and food and wouldn't be forced to choose between them. If gas pipeline close up, factory in which I work probably would close up and that's game over for me. I think that this is reality of many people. And this can lead to violent demonstrations.

Tsjerk - 24-8-2022 at 11:12

Quote: Originally posted by Vishenka

lol, just move to russia))))

Well, although what people are saying here in this topic might suggest otherwise, when looking at just inflation Russia isn't doing any better than Europe. People here are just used to a very high standard of living.

At least we don't have to worry that we, or our sons, or our fathers are send to the front of a war, with a very good chance of not returning.

[Edited on 24-8-2022 by Tsjerk]

Fulmen - 24-8-2022 at 12:12

Calm down, breathe out. Panic isn't going to solve anything.

Hexabromobenzene - 26-8-2022 at 09:03

What do you mean by very high standard of living?I do not understand this

In Europe, winters with temperature, for example -20 degrees, are rare. In recent times, due to global heating of the whole earth, they have become even more rare. Atlantic heat now reaches Eastern Europe in winter and further
In addition, you can always buy or make a stove on solid fuel like coal or wood and heat their house

macckone - 26-8-2022 at 11:34

grid collapse in the EU is much less likely than someplace like texas. But you may have to work around rolling blackouts.

It isn't like electricity was wide spread before 1900.
A reminder that oil supplies are dwindling world wide.
Time to get off fossil fuels.
It is going to be a 100 million years before they are replinished (at least if ever).

All of that grain that has gone bad in ukraine can still be used to make ethanol and butanol.
In the US most grain storage facilities have contracts with ethanol plants for spoilage.
ethanol can be converted to heavier organics as an oil substitute.

Tsjerk - 27-8-2022 at 01:02

Quote: Originally posted by Hexabromobenzene

What do you mean by very high standard of living?I do not understand this

When you live in the EU and can't see the average standard of living is very high you are blind. You should go visit the world a bit, or read about how more than half the world population lives.

Organikum - 27-8-2022 at 04:36

It is happening already as I told it and the linked article proves two points: First, It is the EU not buying more gas then the contractual minimum, not Russia limiting the supply and second that we are more then doubling the CO2 from the use of natural gas by buying expensive gas which already carries an CO2 penalty in production and transportation and forcing Russia to burn off the excessive gas we would have used otherwise.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62652133

You will find the official statements are clear in that this gas which is burned off was meant to be delivered to Europe but nobody bought it. It shows that all the talk about Russia cutting the supply off are nothing but propaganda and I am afraid propaganda in anticipation of what is to come, what is planned by the EU/NATO. The gas supply crisis which is talked about so much can only happen when Germany and the EU are going to refuse to buy the contractural defined amounts of gas and this is only possible when the relations between the countries enter a state which allows this to do without having to pay for it anyways, say an official state of war.

Lets face it: The EU population is groomed for war, and honestly I am getting somewhat scared, I did not believe this could happen in my lifetime.
Pls note that I am not saying "war will come" but it seems obvious our politicians see this as an actual option.

This should close the discussion regarding the question who causes shortages. It is us not willing to buy, not Russia not willing to deliver.

And also pls note that I am not taking any position if the decision not to buy any more gas from Russia and having them burning it off instead is a wise one. That is up to discussion, arguments can brought up for it and against.
Important is to discuss based on facts and not on propaganda or any discussion will rapidly descend into mudslinging as thats what propaganda is: Mud.

Personally though I believe for my country, Germany, this it is acting against the interests of my own country and its population something all politicians with official positions have sworn not to do and that those responsible should be tried for treason.
Not to be misunderstood: I am all for supporting Ukraine in the defense against the aggressor including supplying heavy and advanced weaponry under the condition those weapons are not going to units of the right sector.
The last paragraph is not in the scope of this thread if somebody wants to discuss this, not here - PM me.

Fulmen - 27-8-2022 at 10:04

From what I have read it is Russia that's holding back:
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/russias-gazprom-decl...

But either way I say good riddance. I'll rather freeze than fund Russia's war effort with a single cent. Because this won't end until Russia is defeated. Russia might be the largest country in Europe, but EU outnumber them 3 to 1. And economically it's better than 10 to 1 (they are barely larger than Spain).

Bedlasky - 27-8-2022 at 13:02

I rather live another day to fight back, than freeze and starve to death.

Fulmen - 27-8-2022 at 13:37

I'll admit I'm somewhat privileged, we have a heat pump, subsidized power, 2m^3 of wood and an oil furnace. And I'm not really eligible for military service. So it's easy to volunteer for a fight you don't have to fight yourself. But I'd rather face problems head on than hoping it will sort itself out. And this level of aggression has no limits, if there's one thing history has taught us it's that simple fact.

If there is one virtue to hard times it's that it teaches us what is really important. So fuck the environment, the only order of business is to survive. Always has been, always will be. Short terms first, long terms last. And this won't change anything. Russia was burning more gas than anybody long before this, this isn't the battle that determines the fate of the planet. But if this forces Germany into reversing it's view on nuclear power it will be a huge win for the climate.

Has anybody calculated the CO2 footprint of war? And not just the insane energy used in the weapons and machines, think of all the destroyed infrastructure that has to be replaced...

Bedlasky - 27-8-2022 at 14:30

I didn't mean acutal fight on battlefield, I meant that if we cripple ourselves by stop buying Russian gas without replacement, how can we face them? With destroyed economy and divided society we are pretty easy target. But if we firstly find a new source of gas (in the same quantity), and then we stop buying Russian gas, we remain strong. Yeah, we will some time fund their war, but it's better than commiting suicide. As you said - its all about survival.

Twospoons - 28-8-2022 at 12:12

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky

I rather live another day to fight back, than freeze and starve to death.

Not buying Russian gas is fighting back.

Putin

MadHatter - 5-9-2022 at 10:22

Putin has cutoff gas going into Europe. His goal is to force these consumer
nations to lift the sanctions that were put in place after his invasion of Ukraine.

Fulmen - 5-9-2022 at 10:49

It's as simple as that. He's pushing, and we're trying to push back. And I think we should.

Russia might be the biggest country in Europe, but economically they are comparable to Spain. We can starve them out, I wouldn't be surprised if this breaks the Russian Federation in the long run.

Hexabromobenzene - 6-3-2023 at 12:14

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Quote: Originally posted by Hexabromobenzene

What do you mean by very high standard of living?I do not understand this

When you live in the EU and can't see the average standard of living is very high you are blind. You should go visit the world a bit, or read about how more than half the world population lives.

I dont live in EU. EU citizenship is privilege for many people. But it seems to me from the outside sometimes life in the EU is a bit boring with a bunch of rules. On the other hand, even life in the prison of the European Union is a dream for many.

blogfast25 - 7-3-2023 at 10:29

Quote: Originally posted by Hexabromobenzene

Show me a place without rules, please?

As regards 'even life in the prison of the European Union [...]', I think it's official: you're legally blind. Go get your badge...

Hexabromobenzene - 8-3-2023 at 00:18

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by Hexabromobenzene

Show me a place without rules, please?

As regards 'even life in the prison of the European Union [...]', I think it's official: you're legally blind. Go get your badge...

Balkans, former USSR, Latin America,India,Central Asia, Africa. There are no such strict rules of life as in the EU. Regarding the European prison, for many, such a standard of life is a dream. People in many countries earn insignificant money and they can hardly have enough for food. And there they feed for free and do not die on the street from the cold

arkoma - 8-3-2023 at 01:20

Everyone mind their manners. Remember this a chemistry, not political/cultural forum.

Σldritch - 8-3-2023 at 04:32

Quote: Originally posted by Hexabromobenzene

I think this captures the problem with the EU. An outsider looking in thinks: they really know how to drive their slaves/plunder there, I want to take part in the fruits of their labor/the spoils, too!

Everyone dreaming of an oligarchy always imagines themselves being one of the oligarchs, not one of their slaves. The EUSSR is not that great if you're honest. It is no coincidence the birth rate is so low. The people are literally being worked to death. And that only scratches the surface of the crimes committed by its rulers.

Anyway what I wanted to say was: there is reason to believe a USA-China conflict is coming. This means the EUSSR will impose sanctions on China further hurting themselves willingly for the moneymakers who need a world war (or other catastrophe) as an excuse to default. Need I say more?

blogfast25 - 8-3-2023 at 04:39

Quote: Originally posted by Hexabromobenzene

'former USSR': did you mean the Russian Federation? Where people are imprisoned for having an opinion? Assasinated, in some cases? A country ruled by an autocrat? Where gays risk imprisonement and worse? Etc etc...

That Russia?

You Sir, are an annoying political ignoramus.

You've only just landed here and you're already breaking an important rule: no politics!

Now why don't you skiddadle off and go do some SCIENCE and report on that here, huh?

Texium - 8-3-2023 at 07:05

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

You Sir, are an annoying political ignoramus.

You've only just landed here and you're already breaking an important rule: no politics!

Now why don't you skiddadle off and go do some SCIENCE and report on that here, huh?

blogfast, you’re hardly helping the situation by using inflammatory language and ad hominem. More of this and you can expect a week posting ban.

arkoma - 8-3-2023 at 08:06

I haven't gotten to lock a thread yet, either. Tempt me......

Hexabromobenzene - 8-3-2023 at 08:19

The topic is initially politicized. But I expressed my thoughts in accordance with amateur chemistry. For example, for storing sulfuric acid in the EU you may have problems if someone finds out.

In countries that I wrote there is one feature. People living in them are absolutely all the same on you. These are the features of the culture and the passage of these states.
This gives a parish in your hobby. Less extra attention. However, the standard of living there is very low and people run from there. However, if you have money, you can live there well. The choice is yours

Regarding Russia, until 2015 it was a relatively good place for life. Since 2015, toughening of laws and the fall of people's salaries began. Allowing greedy idiots to the authorities is sometimes very dangerous

[Edited on 8-3-2023 by Hexabromobenzene]

[Edited on 8-3-2023 by Hexabromobenzene]

arkoma - 8-3-2023 at 08:35

OK--closed