Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Plant Ash

Romix - 14-8-2023 at 15:05

Hello again Dear forum members.
Doing an experiment with the plant ash.
I have collected all the tabacco ash smoking it for 2 years.
Also made a lot of BBQs, burned like two massive bags of wood charcoal.
Boiled all the ash combined for few hours and filtered what dissolved in water. People are saying on internet that water soluble salts of plant ash is mainly Potassium salts, also in theory there be contamination from tap water. Used like 10 liters of water to dissolve everything.
Ok, evaporated water soluble salts on my my LED lamp, hanging above my plants, down to formation of first crystals, now I want to leave it crystalize slowly. Will drip pipette or two of HNO3 to the crystals and check if it is actually KNO3 by putting it in a freezer and cooling to 0C.
The question is how to separate ash that didn't dissolve in water, Potassium, Calcium and Magnesium into mono atomic salts? Not talking about the traces.

Romix - 14-8-2023 at 15:13

I can dissolve it all in vinegar, drop everything out of the solution with KOH, add Phosphoric acid to the precipitate and make slow release fertilizer, that can be mixed with the soil in a pots and be absorbed by the plant roots very very slowly with every watering because of it's low solubility. Think it will be good for potatoes.
But I want to gain more knowledge of plant ash and separate it in to mono atomic salts, don't know how to, though.

Romix - 14-8-2023 at 15:20

My grand parents used something similar to grow potatoes, they had two fields close to each other. One year potatoes was growing, then next year they were growing outs on it where potatoes grew to absorb the rest of the fertilizer left in the soil. Swapping fields every year.

[Edited on 14-8-2023 by Romix]

Sulaiman - 14-8-2023 at 23:42

I think that wood ash etc. has been used all over the world as a fertiliser.
Apply sparingly.
Soluble nutrients wash through quickly, others are slowly absorbed.

As for analysis and refining ..... good luck !

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 00:51

Already doing it mate, have lots of it, all plants are fed, don't want to over do it.

RU_KLO - 15-8-2023 at 10:08

hi, Im doing also some experiments with potash (wood ash filtered solution)
Mine came as yellow liquid.
Proceed from 350gr wood ash (some charcoal was also inside the wood ash. aprox 600 ml boiling water. Boiled for 10 min. Filtered.

Reduced (concentrated) to 100 ml aprox by boiling. Currently is waiting for cristalls (if any) . Will give a week (till next weekend) if not any cristalls, then reduce till some precipitate is form, then cristallization again.

As it supposed to be mostly potassium carbonate, I will use is to precipitate other carbonates from an earth-water leaching for getting nitrates from soil.



not tried but :
One form of purification is to add a sodium carbonate solution (maybe sodium bicarbonate will work), because "Most carbonate salts are insoluble in water at standard temperature and pressure, with solubility constants of less than 1×10−8. Exceptions include lithium,sodium, potassium, rubidium, caesium, and ammonium carbonates, as well as many uranium carbonates.

This will precipitate other carbonates from the potash, leaving sodium/potasium carbonate in solution.


fx-991ex - 15-8-2023 at 11:24

Quote: Originally posted by RU_KLO  
hi, Im doing also some experiments with potash (wood ash filtered solution)
Mine came as yellow liquid.
Proceed from 350gr wood ash (some charcoal was also inside the wood ash. aprox 600 ml boiling water. Boiled for 10 min. Filtered.

Reduced (concentrated) to 100 ml aprox by boiling. Currently is waiting for cristalls (if any) . Will give a week (till next weekend) if not any cristalls, then reduce till some precipitate is form, then cristallization again.

As it supposed to be mostly potassium carbonate, I will use is to precipitate other carbonates from an earth-water leaching for getting nitrates from soil.



not tried but :
One form of purification is to add a sodium carbonate solution (maybe sodium bicarbonate will work), because "Most carbonate salts are insoluble in water at standard temperature and pressure, with solubility constants of less than 1×10−8. Exceptions include lithium,sodium, potassium, rubidium, caesium, and ammonium carbonates, as well as many uranium carbonates.

This will precipitate other carbonates from the potash, leaving sodium/potasium carbonate in solution.



You can heat bicarbonate in a pan to 200C it will decompose to the carbonate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpGEc-pLXN4

[Edited on 15-8-2023 by fx-991ex]

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 14:42

Quote: Originally posted by RU_KLO  
hi, Im doing also some experiments with potash (wood ash filtered solution)
Mine came as yellow liquid.
Proceed from 350gr wood ash (some charcoal was also inside the wood ash. aprox 600 ml boiling water. Boiled for 10 min. Filtered.

Reduced (concentrated) to 100 ml aprox by boiling. Currently is waiting for cristalls (if any) . Will give a week (till next weekend) if not any cristalls, then reduce till some precipitate is form, then cristallization again.

As it supposed to be mostly potassium carbonate, I will use is to precipitate other carbonates from an earth-water leaching for getting nitrates from soil.



not tried but :
One form of purification is to add a sodium carbonate solution (maybe sodium bicarbonate will work), because "Most carbonate salts are insoluble in water at standard temperature and pressure, with solubility constants of less than 1×10−8. Exceptions include lithium,sodium, potassium, rubidium, caesium, and ammonium carbonates, as well as many uranium carbonates.

This will precipitate other carbonates from the potash, leaving sodium/potasium carbonate in solution.



My solution is black, but I sill can see through it, so will be able to see the first crystals forming.
I'm separating big pieces of charcoal from ash using a massive stainless steel sieve, rubbing the ash against the sieve with a spoon in to 5 liter beaker. Some still goes through.
350 gram of ash won't yield much, I made about an OZ of dry salts, weighed it before dissolving everything in to the last batch.

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 15:00

Any ideas of how to separate insoluble in water plant ash in to mono atomic salts? Don't be shy to share, if it sounds good, I'll try it out!

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 15:12

Solvated traces of Iron cations in the plant ash can be precipitated with Ammonium Hydroxide solution, if any present in it, NH4OH highly available and I can make a lot of it, how different elements in solvated ash will behave with it?

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 15:56

Magnesium will precipitate as hydroxide too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDDGFuLziGo
Calcium ions not precipitating with NH4OH! Believing this video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieeIo1pFIqg
So here is one way to separate one from another.


[Edited on 16-8-2023 by Romix]

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 16:11

This table in the video above, won't work precipitating hydroxides with NH4OH, but will work with bases like NaOH and KOH.
As many of the cations forming water soluble complexes with it.
And what does the X means for the Silver ion?


[Edited on 16-8-2023 by Romix]

Screenshot 2023-08-16 010734.png - 347kB

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 16:23

Might get a liter or so of good concentration Ammonium Hydroxide for this experiment, to lazy to concentrate urine by freezing, evaporating it and condensing, Paliperidone takes all my energy away! Need to watch the process all way through distilling it, lifting the reactor every time it foams, and preventing it from clogging the condenser. Although it might be easier in my new 5 liter quickfit set up.

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 16:27

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
This table in the video above, won't work precipitating hydroxides with NH4OH, but will work with bases like NaOH and KOH.
As many of the cations forming water soluble complexes with it.
And what does the X means for the Silver ion?


[Edited on 16-8-2023 by Romix]

Tin and Lead will form complexes with KOH and NaOH, but I can't see them in the table.

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 16:37

And what does sS means for Calcium in a table?
It's hydroxide is insoluble in water, but soluble enough to make the PH very basic.

averageaussie - 15-8-2023 at 16:42

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  

And what does the X means for the Silver ion?


Silver hydroxide, when produced through mixing silver nitrate and an alkali hydroxide, quickly decomposes into silver(I) oxide, because of the favourable energetics of the following reaction;
2 AgOH => Ag2O + H2O (pK = 2.875)

So it really doesn't exist for long enough to measure, and any hydroxide that isn't immediately decomposed is in such small amounts that it is not noticable.

averageaussie - 15-8-2023 at 17:19

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
And what does sS means for Calcium in a table?
It's hydroxide is insoluble in water, but soluble enough to make the PH very basic.


Slightly soluble if I had to guess, having ~ 1.7 g/L at 20c.
also interesting is that its solubility is retrograde, the solubility decreases as temperature goes up.

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 17:19

Quote: Originally posted by averageaussie  
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  

And what does the X means for the Silver ion?


Silver hydroxide, when produced through mixing silver nitrate and an alkali hydroxide, quickly decomposes into silver(I) oxide, because of the favourable energetics of the following reaction;
2 AgOH => Ag2O + H2O (pK = 2.875)

So it really doesn't exist for long enough to measure, and any hydroxide that isn't immediately decomposed is in such small amounts that it is not noticable.


Thank you for explanation!

B(a)P - 15-8-2023 at 17:23

You might like to pause and collect your thoughts, you have a large number of one line posts, it will make it cumbersome for people to respond.

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
And what does sS means for Calcium in a table?
It's hydroxide is insoluble in water, but soluble enough to make the PH very basic.


sS likely stands for slightly soluble, which calcium hydroxide is in water 1.73 g/L @ 20 C.

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Any ideas of how to separate insoluble in water plant ash in to mono atomic salts? Don't be shy to share, if it sounds good, I'll try it out!


A soluble perchlorate salt or perchloric acid may help you to separate potassium from sodium, once you have removed everything else with hydroxides.

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 17:27

Can Ammonium Acetate be used as a plant food, will plants like it, any one tried it?

averageaussie - 15-8-2023 at 17:35

[/rquote]
Tin and Lead will form complexes with KOH and NaOH, but I can't see them in the table.[/rquote]
this table originally comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_chart
and it has since been updated. if you want what looks to be a pretty good solubility chart, here seems decent. there is a key at the bottom of the page, explaining parameters.

[Edited on 16-8-2023 by averageaussie]

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 17:36

I've overdosed my fig tree lately, been making Calcium Acetate, after washing it's crystals with ice cold water on a filter, left the solution for too long and a lot of black mold formed in it. Solution was all black in mold. Decided to feed it to my fig tree, tree didn't like it. Either Calcium Acetate OD or tree didn't like the mold. Fed it Calcium Acetate before in small portions, tree was loving it, lifting the leaves to the sky and growing.



[Edited on 16-8-2023 by Romix]

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 17:46

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Can Ammonium Acetate be used as a plant food, will plants like it, any one tried it?

Russian WIKI says that Ammonium Acetate is a preservative, might help with mold if my tree may not get well.

Romix - 15-8-2023 at 17:48

Or preservatives just preventing the bioactivity but not stopping it?

Texium - 15-8-2023 at 17:58

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
You might like to pause and collect your thoughts, you have a large number of one line posts, it will make it cumbersome for people to respond.
(emphasis mine)

Romix - 16-8-2023 at 08:50

First rhombus shaped crystals appeared!


[Edited on 16-8-2023 by Romix]

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averageaussie - 16-8-2023 at 15:47

looks good!
are you planning on doing a recrystallisation, or use them as is?

Romix - 16-8-2023 at 16:20

Quote: Originally posted by averageaussie  
looks good!
are you planning on doing a recrystallisation, or use them as is?

This first crystals might not be what I want, they not dissolving in water, don't need to recrystallize them, rinsing with water is enough for them. Chucked them in a cactus pot. If similar crystals will form again doing plant ash, I might start collecting them. Might need to evaporate solution bit more.

averageaussie - 16-8-2023 at 17:37

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Quote: Originally posted by averageaussie  
looks good!
are you planning on doing a recrystallisation, or use them as is?

This first crystals might not be what I want, they not dissolving in water, don't need to recrystallize them, rinsing with water is enough for them. Chucked them in a cactus pot. If similar crystals will form again doing plant ash, I might start collecting them. Might need to evaporate solution bit more.


Do you know what the crystals are?

Romix - 16-8-2023 at 17:38

Quote: Originally posted by averageaussie  
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Quote: Originally posted by averageaussie  
looks good!
are you planning on doing a recrystallisation, or use them as is?

This first crystals might not be what I want, they not dissolving in water, don't need to recrystallize them, rinsing with water is enough for them. Chucked them in a cactus pot. If similar crystals will form again doing plant ash, I might start collecting them. Might need to evaporate solution bit more.


Do you know what the crystals are?

Don't have a clue. Do you?

Romix - 17-8-2023 at 16:41

Evaporated solution for 2 more hours on a lamp, lots of small crystals formed on cooling and they grow quite fast.
Ok, will let them grow till last 30 - 40 ml of black solution left in a dish.
I have a can of Potassium Carbonate Anhydrous, 99% pure, will crystalize sample of it too, to compare if crystals look the same.
Also will test with weak nitric for Potassium.



[Edited on 18-8-2023 by Romix]

Romix - 19-8-2023 at 01:39

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
I can dissolve it all in vinegar, drop everything out of the solution with KOH, add Phosphoric acid to the precipitate and make slow release fertilizer, that can be mixed with the soil in a pots and be absorbed by the plant roots very very slowly with every watering because of it's low solubility. Think it will be good for potatoes.
But I want to gain more knowledge of plant ash and separate it in to mono atomic salts, don't know how to, though.

This method won't work, because most of the hydroxides dissolves in excess KOH. Works ok with K2CO3, just tried it. Waiting for hydroxides that didn't dissolve in excess KOH to finish filtering, then going to acidify solution with acetic acid, and drop out carbonates.

Romix - 20-8-2023 at 07:54

K2CO3 crystals!


[Edited on 20-8-2023 by Romix]

366337996_779813280609097_8566873492112168481_n.jpg - 254kB

averageaussie - 20-8-2023 at 15:57

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
K2CO3 crystals!


[Edited on 20-8-2023 by Romix]

those are quite the crystals!
are these the same as the dirtier crystals from earlier?

Romix - 20-8-2023 at 16:23

No, 99% pure K2CO3. Dissolved 250 grams in 250ml of boiling water in a morning, left on a lamp to evaporate through the day, before going to bed took them of the lamp and they grew over 1 night. This are very soluble, first dirtier crystals were completely insoluble, what came after them still growing, can't capture them with my phone camera, but I can see more rhombus shaped ones in there.

[Edited on 21-8-2023 by Romix]

Romix - 20-8-2023 at 23:06

Doubt that water soluble plant ash mainly is K2CO3.
Because K2CO3 makes your hands soupy, water soluble plant ash doesn't...
And solubility completely different!

[Edited on 21-8-2023 by Romix]

B(a)P - 21-8-2023 at 01:25

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Doubt that water soluble plant ash mainly is K2CO3.
Because K2CO3 makes your hands soupy, water soluble plant ash doesn't...
And solubility completely different!

[Edited on 21-8-2023 by Romix]


It would also contain phosphates.

averageaussie - 21-8-2023 at 15:12

would there be any nitrates in there?

B(a)P - 21-8-2023 at 15:59

Quote: Originally posted by averageaussie  
would there be any nitrates in there?


Unlikely, nitrates decompose at pretty low temperatures.

Romix - 23-8-2023 at 09:44

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CDHhV_JjUq8
Don't know if you can see it in my video? I can, slight violet in there. Potassium Carbonate also present as impurity and spoon was soapy after doing the experiment, but orange has the advantage!!! So I think first crystals that came out of solution are Sodium Acetate. This is insoluble in water plant ash dissolved in vinegar, then hydroxides been precipitated with KOH, I've noticed that some of the precipitate is dissolving in excess of KOH, after filtering I've reacidified it again with vinegar and dropped what dissolved in excess of KOH with K2CO3. Don't know where Sodium came from, maybe from the plant ash or could be from 10% impurities of KOH. It's definitely Acetate, because it decomposed on a spoon to Carbon, also orange color of a flame takes advantage! And solubility about right, Sodium have the lowest solubility of an alkali metal group Acetates.


[Edited on 23-8-2023 by Romix]

Romix - 23-8-2023 at 15:15

Flame is more visible here. filmed in the dark, same Acetate...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgu1FtHCI64&t=53s

Romix - 4-9-2023 at 03:41

That's how water soluble plant ash crystalizes.


[Edited on 4-9-2023 by Romix]

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Romix - 8-10-2023 at 14:27

1L of 10% vinegar yielded 50 grams of minerals out of plant ash with water soluble salts removed before treating it with vinegar.
What dissolved in excess KOH and what stayed as Hydroxide turning grey on air drying from white is combined.
Calcium Hydroxide is dissolving in KOH solution well, tested the precipitate...
New laws came out in UK few days ago, only businesses and people with licenses are allowed to buy concentrated HCl and H3PO4. 10% HCl still available for anyone at 1.2£ per L, might try dissolving plant ash in it too, works out cheaper then using vinegar. Can't find H3PO4 under 30% concentration, and I will need it to make fertilizer.




[Edited on 8-10-2023 by Romix]

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Romix - 15-10-2023 at 08:19

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
That's how water soluble plant ash crystalizes.


[Edited on 4-9-2023 by Romix]

That is how this needle like crystals of water soluble plant ash look like when they grow bigger.

I've evaporated off their water of crystallization on a hot plate,

Then burned off all the impurities that colored the solution brown in a stainless steel crucible with MAPP torch. Look on a color of the flame, this is not Potassium salt as people say on internet. To me it looks more like Sodium, Calcium is more orangy.

Then after incineration of this salt, I've dissolved it in boiling water and filtered oxidation products of crucible that stack to the salt.
Solution is clear now, completely colorless. My expectations were met!

Now I'm evaporating this solution on a top of my LED lamp slowly, down to formation of first crystals.





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[Edited on 15-10-2023 by Romix]

Romix - 15-10-2023 at 08:33

Water soluble plant ash, you saw how it starts crystalizing as a single crystal and what it looks like when crystals gets bigger.
All the crystals were the same, needle like shaped. Color of a flame test is orangy yellow. Not decomposing at temperatures over 1000 C, only starting to melt. Any ideas what the substance is??? Or maybe advices on further tests that can be done to identify it?



[Edited on 15-10-2023 by Romix]

Rainwater - 15-10-2023 at 15:01

At that temperature its likely an oxide of sodium + what your can is made of.
By heating directly with a flame you introduce conbustion products.

Na2O with a carbonate contamination is what I think you got.
Exposure to co2 or water will generate carbonate and hydroxide
Your reagent should not be heated directly with a flame, and be protected from air and moisture at all times to preserve it for testing.

Tip: dont let your can touch anything as you heat it. The point if contact will suck the heat out as fast as you can push it in. A small bit of firewool helps save fuel.

Test 1)
record the temperature and ph of about 10ml of household vinegar.
Insert a piece of your product.
Record temperature and ph change.
Note if bubbles form, how many. (2 per second, 20 per second. Did they last until the solid was disolved)
It may be nessacery to crush the piece to increase the reaction rate.

Extract sodium metal.
If no/few bubbles formed, you do not have a carbonate or its only a contamination
Use your product to replace sodium hydroxide in this procedure
Nerdrage Make Sodium Metal with Menthol (and a bunch of other stuff...)

That will prove beyond any dought what you have.
I have used freshly made Na2O for this reaction to see if it had an effect on the reaction rate. It still takes 3-4 days to finish.

Romix - 15-10-2023 at 15:53

Did another batch, what's left in a crystalizing dish 110ml of concentrated water soluble plant ash, after all crystals been removed and incinerated.
Check the video out. Flames coming out of the crucible are violet. Is this a sign of Potassium presence in what's left.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/quB1TzTOeGE

Hexabromobenzene - 20-10-2023 at 10:46

I leached more 100 kg different plant ashes for many years. Mainly trees. Average soluble salt content about 5%. Main salt is potash with potassium sulfate which precipitates during evaporation

Romix - 20-10-2023 at 11:32

After incineration shape of the crystals changed!!

Romix - 26-11-2023 at 14:46

Mono K2SO4 crystal. :) I think it's Potassium Sulphate...
Here's how I made it, dissolved full plastic cup of MgSO4·7H2O in boiling water and added about 5 table spoons of KOH to it , maybe a bit more then that, can't remember, added it until the PH turned slightly basic, less then almost insoluble Ca(OH) colors litmus blue.
Might it not be K2SO4?



[Edited on 26-11-2023 by Romix]

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Romix - 26-11-2023 at 20:07

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
After incineration shape of the crystals changed!!

After incineration crystals are growing in a form of cubes, NaCl like, but not sodium chloride, because they are slightly hygroscopic, after filtering out the concentrate filter paper used not drying out almost a month now, and a pinch of this salt that fall out first on slow evaporation on a lamp melted standing on air.

Romix - 4-12-2023 at 19:16

Ok! Crystals not seem like growing and going back in to solution, adding nitric to it soon, checking for Potassium presence. Incinerated water soluble plant ash.

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 01:06

I placed concentrated solution of it on my LED lamp when I wrote my last comment.
Some crystals formed since, here's a photo for you Dear forum members to see a shape change of a crystal after incineration before I add acid to it, luckily I have couple of pipettes left from good old days when concentrated nitric used to sell on eBay to any one wanting.


[Edited on 5-12-2023 by Romix]

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Romix - 5-12-2023 at 01:41

Acid still colorless after so many years, salt on a picture above was fizzing when I've dripped 6 pipettes of concentrated nitric in it, first I've tried adding a little drop, reaction wasn't vigorous, so I've added the whole lot in, reaction took place in a beaker with tall walls 500ml, bubbles not gone any higher then 150ml. Gas produced is scentless, probably CO2. Before today I usually diluting acids by 3 times with water, to prevent run away out of a test tube. Will evaporate solution on a lamp till about noon UK, give my plants some CO2 and then it is freezers time, to see if Potassium Nitrate will crystalize out of it on cooling to 0C, I'm familiar with it's crystals.

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 15:42

Ok, I backed up Potassium's presence in water soluble plant ash with another experiment, not just violet flame coming out of the crucible. Placed solution after addition of HNO3 to it in a freezer about two hours ago, took it out now, lots of Potassium Nitrate crystals crystalized out.


[Edited on 6-12-2023 by Romix]

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Romix - 5-12-2023 at 16:04

Please direct me how to analyse correctly Hydroxides precipitated out of insoluble in water plant ash dissolved in vinegar.


[Edited on 6-12-2023 by Romix]

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Romix - 11-12-2023 at 18:38



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Romix - 17-1-2024 at 16:17

I think I've crystalized all KNO3 out of solution, on further evaporation them hygroscopic cubic like crystals appeared again.
403406867_359064510043724_6974288476297820581_n.jpg.49774a09e201bc7ec6a172c9b38bec8c.jpg - 91kB
Here's recrystallized KNO3, I'm not expected that much out of 6 pipettes.
kno3.jpg - 78kB

[Edited on 18-1-2024 by Romix]