Sciencemadness Discussion Board

chemical production of ozone

Achilles - 2-10-2023 at 00:39

i want to produce ozone chemically no matter the cost of the reagents i will not use an electric arc to produce 3g/h of ozone under pure oxygen waste, this is un incredibly low yield and a scam but its just personal hate.
in internet ive found many ways..
manganese heptoxide with thermal decomposition the problem is the sudden release of high volumes of gas and strong heat and im worried that the heat will just break down the ozone.
conc. permanganic acid and hydrogen peroxide is said to release ozone ive tested it and no ozone just oxygen…
but piranha solution when boiling seems to release something very irritating even in high space open area.. it could be ozone or just hydrogen peroxide vapors?
anyway any suggestions?

unionised - 2-10-2023 at 01:10

People who use ozone for real-life applications like water purification, produce it electrically.
If there were more efficient ways to do it, they would use them.

Do you think they are stupid?

Achilles - 2-10-2023 at 01:48

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
People who use ozone for real-life applications like water purification, produce it electrically.
If there were more efficient ways to do it, they would use them.

Do you think they are stupid?


they use that because i suspect it is way cheaper as an industrial process like producing chlorine by electrolisis…
no procedure is as the same as the industrial one for a lab one. i just said im ready to sacrifice money to have a chemical one

Rainwater - 2-10-2023 at 02:43

Your frustration could be related to the quality of your appratus. The cheap little gadgets, can produce ozone, but do not have the surface area needed for "efficient" conversion. Don't expect more than 5-10% electrical efficiency for a top quality device

The surface area of your cermaic dielectric will be a major factor.
The tube in tube appratus seam to be a popular design, (at least the 9ne that needs the most fixing)
I dont have any literature but have rebuild several, the trend is short tubes with multiple inserts and high voltages.
Biggest issue is dust settling on the conductive layer forcing the corona to consentrate in one spot and produce arcing,
Edit: preview/post error
Most industrial applications do not use pure o2, but dried air under increased pressure, 1-1.5atm.
The flow rate, humidity and O3 concentration all effect the output.
Ideally you don't want to introduce any product into the reactor.
By recirculating the output into H2SO4, O3 can be accumulated in the liquid then boiled out in a seperate stage. This is usually done continuously.
A good o3 setup is not cheap for large scale.
But the basic operation can be scaled down to lab size and might fulfill your requirments

[Edited on 2-10-2023 by Rainwater]

clearly_not_atara - 2-10-2023 at 03:02

IIRC ozone is produced by the reaction of fluorine gas with water under certain conditions.

Of course this is not practical or safe.

Jenks - 2-10-2023 at 10:45

If it is the inefficiency of wasting oxygen, not electricity, that is the problem, the oxygen could be recirculated after removing the ozone with sulfuric acid. Ozone can be produced by electrolysis of water using a higher voltage than used to produce only hydrogen and oxygen.

vanBassum - 6-10-2023 at 00:52

AFAIK, a lot of ozone can be made using PbO2 anodes. When making perchlorate, I noticed the distinctive smell of ozone near the end.

Chem Science - 6-10-2023 at 04:10

An old book of mine has these experiments as chemical methods of ozone production

I] ELECTROLISIS OF SULFURIC ACID SOLUTION
It claims that concentrated solutions of sulfuric acid upon electrolisis generates oxygen and ozone.

II] POTASIUM PERMANGANTE AND SULFURIC ACID
A little pile of powdered KMnO4, with a coouple of drops of water and 4 mL of 98% H2SO4 generates Ozone

III] BARIUM PEROXIDE AND SULFURIC ACID
Concentrated sulfuric acid driping in barium peroxide generates ozone.

I may try some of these, seems interesting :)

Sulaiman - 6-10-2023 at 10:11

I've done ii) a few times, the bulk of gas evolved is oxygen with trace ammounts of ozone.
Given that you will be producing Mn2O7 which is an incredibly powerful oxidiser and a sensitive explosive,
other paths should be considered for ozone generation.

PS. I've read that permanganate plus sulphuric plus hydrogen peroxide produces significant quantities of ozone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_heptoxide
(at the end of the section "Synthesis and reactions")

Also, use plastic ware, not glassware, due to explosion risk.

[Edited on 6-10-2023 by Sulaiman]

SnailsAttack - 6-10-2023 at 10:51

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
but piranha solution when boiling seems to release something very irritating even in high space open area.. it could be ozone or just hydrogen peroxide vapors?

most likely just aerosolized particles of sulphuric acid

clearly_not_atara - 6-10-2023 at 14:21

I do remember once seeing the equation:

2 KO2 + H2SO4 >> O3 + K2SO4 + H2O

which aside from being cute, I can sort of draw a little diagram with arrow-pushing and a five-membered ring transition for two molecules of hydrogen superoxide becoming water and ozone. But whether this makes any sense I suspect not. It would seem that the more favorable 5-membered ring is oriented the other way to give hydrogen peroxide and oxygen.

But it turns out someone had a better idea:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja980887n

"Ozone is formed in good yields by reacting O2+ [dioxygenyl] salts with water in HF at -78 C"

Well, it's a little bit milder than the fluorine method, I suppose? :D

Neal - 1-11-2023 at 01:21

Nobody said anything about a UV-C lamp? At 185 nm.

Microscale production of ozone from sulfuric acid electrolysis

symboom - 1-11-2023 at 07:03

https://youtu.be/Jrd_qQWl8b0?si=__9xU_mZsKR7EIab

Quote
AFAIK, a lot of ozone can be made using PbO2 anodes. When making perchlorate, I noticed the distinctive smell of ozone near the end.

Quote
remember once seeing the equation:
2 KO2 + H2SO4 >> O3 + K2SO4 + H2O


Quote
Nobody said anything about a UV-C lamp? At 185 nm.

Quote
ELECTROLISIS OF SULFURIC ACID SOLUTION
It claims that concentrated solutions of sulfuric acid upon electrolisis generates oxygen and ozone.

II] POTASIUM PERMANGANTE AND SULFURIC ACID
A little pile of powdered KMnO4, with a coouple of drops of water and 4 mL of 98% H2SO4 generates Ozone

III] BARIUM PEROXIDE AND SULFURIC ACID
Concentrated sulfuric acid driping in barium peroxide generates ozone.




[Edited on 2-11-2023 by symboom]

symboom - 2-11-2023 at 19:51

Another reaction of high ozone output but messy is sodium plumbate with lead dioxide and platnium

Neal - 3-11-2023 at 17:04

From a Northwestern University paper that came out Sept.

And under certain conditions, when NO2 interacts with sunlight, it can also produce ground-level ozone,

RU_KLO - 7-11-2023 at 09:45

potassium persulfate + diluted acid (in the paper HClO4) but also H2SO4 is mentioned:

"The effect of pH on the source of the oxygen liberated from 0.1 M potassium persulfate solutions at 90° and 50° is given in Table v. The oxygen liberated from dilute acid solutions of persulfate contained ozone as evidenced by the odor of the gas and by the action of the gas on starch iodide paper."
by dilute they mean 2M HClO4.
source: "The Chemistry of Persulfate. I. The Kinetics and Mechanism of the decomposition of the Persulfate Ion in Aqueous Medium"
BY I. M. KOLTHOFAFN D I. K. MILLER^

Texium - 8-11-2023 at 11:04

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
People who use ozone for real-life applications like water purification, produce it electrically.
If there were more efficient ways to do it, they would use them.

Do you think they are stupid?


they use that because i suspect it is way cheaper as an industrial process like producing chlorine by electrolisis…
no procedure is as the same as the industrial one for a lab one. i just said im ready to sacrifice money to have a chemical one
People who use ozone in the lab also use electric ozone generators for their reactions. They aren't stupid either. Oxygen and electricity are cheap, it's reliable, and it produces sufficient amounts for small scale reactions. No need to reinvent the wheel on this one. I can assure you Big Ozone is not hiding more efficient chemical routes from us.