Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Perchlorate acquisition in San Francisco?

Perchlorate acquisition in San Francisco?

ErikSedell - 9-1-2025 at 01:33

I´m travelling to San Fransisco, CA at the end of the month on a business trip. As perchlorates are not available in my home country I want to ask if perchlorates (potassium or ammonium) are legally available in CA, and if so; would somebody know a place to get them?

//Erik

Deathunter88 - 9-1-2025 at 04:16

Perchlorates are not OTC in the US as far as I'm aware. However, if you know which hotel you are staying at you can order it from a lot of online vendors (fireworkscookbook, pyrochemsource to just name a few) and get it shipped there in advance. Then you can ship it yourself back to your home country. I would not advise trying to bring perchlorates back with you on the plane.

ErikSedell - 9-1-2025 at 04:52

Thanks for your advice, thats a good idea!

Would there be any problems for a foreigner walking into a post office and sending a package to europe? What will they ask me, do I need to tell the content of the packages etc.

anything one must do to avoid problems with customs?

//Erik

woelen - 9-1-2025 at 07:03

Keep in mind that potassium perchlorate is forbidden in the EU, even possession of that. So, if you do this, only take ammonium perchlorate.
Potassium perchlorate and sodium perchlorate both are cheap oxidizers, which are regarded as explosives precursors. Ammonium perchlorate is slower burning in most compositions and it is more expensive, both properties making it less attractive for making bulk explosives. In the EU you may possess ammonium perchlorate and you may buy it, but finding a supplier for this chemical becomes more and more difficult.

A few days ago, someone posted something about a seller (blast-tec.com, a Danish seller), which sells a slurry, which is a mix of water and solid KClO4, containing 40% KClO4. Formally, this is legal in the EU, but it is borderline. I do not have any personal experience with blast-tec.com.

Another option is making perchlorates yourself, using MMO and PbO2 electrodes. First make chlorate with MMO, then make perchlorate from the chlorate with a PbO2 anode. There is a nice eBay seller, who sells electrodes, or even complete kits. I do have exprience with that, and I can recommend this seller: https://www.ebay.nl/usr/feanor.forges
This of course is more work, but once you have the electrodes and power supply, you can make as much as you like.

Sir_Gawain - 9-1-2025 at 07:35

I would recommend Skylighter; Pyrochemsource has quite steep shipping costs. You can get a pound for about $30 from them. If you only need a small amount, United Nuclear has some.
Edit: I’m referring to ammonium perchlorate

[Edited on 1-9-2025 by Sir_Gawain]

Dr.Bob - 9-1-2025 at 07:56

In most cases in the US, you need an ATF license to buy more than 1 pound of KClO4 per year, according to my info. Skylighter.com or a few other companies sell it, but shipping it requires hazmat paperwork, and customs issues are huge for it. Be very careful, as the ATF watches it a lot, and carrying it on a plane might get you a free vacation with special treatment. Good luck.

https://www.skylighter.com/pages/illegal-exploding-fireworks...

drakedevel - 9-1-2025 at 10:09

You will be asked at the post office whether the package contains any hazardous materials. Ammonium perchlorate (along with sodium/potassium perchlorate) is specifically listed on the USPS hazardous materials list: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxa.htm

Assuming yours is classified as an oxidizer under UN 1442 (non-explosive), and you were mailing it within the US, you could do so for up to 25lb of material by following Packaging Instructions 5A https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52//pub52apxc_016.htm , but you'll note on that page that this is prohibited for international mail.

Private carriers like UPS or FedEx will ship oxidizers internationally, but neither of those will accept hazardous materials shipments at the counter, you would need to set up a shipping account with them and get your account approved for hazmat shipping. I don't know how feasible this is as a visitor.

Oxidizers are prohibited on commercial passenger flights by US law, whether on your person, in your carry-on, or checked, and I don't think there is any quantity exception. As Dr.Bob suggests I don't think it would go well for you if you were caught.

Fun story: I was departing from SFO with a pound of home-milled flour a few years ago; they saw powder in the x-ray and ran it through their explosives trace detector. That produced a (false) positive, so I got to stand around while someone wearing a "TSA Explosives Expert" shirt came over and did further wet-chemical tests on it. I think every TSA officer in the airport must have showed up to watch, there were so many! The follow-up test did clear me, so they apologized for the delay and sent me on my way.

Deathunter88 - 9-1-2025 at 19:54

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob

In most cases in the US, you need an ATF license to buy more than 1 pound of KClO4 per year, according to my info. Skylighter.com or a few other companies sell it, but shipping it requires hazmat paperwork, and customs issues are huge for it. Be very careful, as the ATF watches it a lot, and carrying it on a plane might get you a free vacation with special treatment. Good luck.

https://www.skylighter.com/pages/illegal-exploding-fireworks...

This is not true. The ATF does not regulate oxidizers. Most oxidizers can also be shipped ground ORM-D or limited quantity without needed hazmat. Some certain sites such as Skylighter have been visited by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) for selling "illegal explosive kits" which is why they have that restriction in place as a voluntary measure. They are the only site that has this restriction as far as I'm aware and you can order as much oxidizer as you want from the other suppliers I mention. Pyro Build and Pyro Creations are two other trustworthy sites.

Source: I have an ATF license and work with people in the firework business.

drakedevel - 9-1-2025 at 20:25

I happened to notice that Firefox FX has the same 1lb restriction under the terms of a federal injunction, having lost a case brought by the CPSC and DOT. (I don't know anything more about the company, they just came up in a search result at some point and they mention the injunction on their front page.) That does seem like the kind of legal outcome that would convince others to adopt "voluntary" restrictions!

moviez - 9-1-2025 at 20:44

Yes, you can buy chlorates/perchlorate in CA through online vendors.

Just make sure you’re compliant with airline safety regulations (which should be taken very seriously).

Deathunter88 - 9-1-2025 at 21:55

Quote: Originally posted by drakedevel

I happened to notice that Firefox FX has the same 1lb restriction under the terms of a federal injunction, having lost a case brought by the CPSC and DOT. (I don't know anything more about the company, they just came up in a search result at some point and they mention the injunction on their front page.) That does seem like the kind of legal outcome that would convince others to adopt "voluntary" restrictions!

US explosives law is actually very friendly for individuals. It is legal for anyone to make as much explosives as they want on their own land as long as they are not storing it. Hence why you can go to a sporting store and buy a kit for 20lb of ammonal (Tannerite) no questions asked. This applies for anything, including fireworks. You can make your own M80s, cherry bombs, silver salutes for your own use (again as long as you're not storing it). As a result, oxidizers are not restricted in any capacity.

Where suppliers get in trouble is when they sell "kits for making illegal fireworks". Illegal explosives in this context are M80s, cherry bombs, silver salutes etc. "Wait what, you just said those were legal" I hear you cry. Yes, they are legal for individuals to make, BUT the CPSC claim that sellings kits encourages people to make them for sale to others, which is illegal without an ATF license. To avoid getting in trouble with the CPSC, websites will never sell you a kit containing KClO4, aluminum powder, and cardboard tubes. Most sites will also cancel your order if your purchase only contains KClO4 and aluminum powder or if they get the sense that you are buying material specifically for making flash powder. Again, it is not illegal for you to make flash powder, just that these companies don't want to get in trouble with the CPSC. As long as you are buying materials for making a variety of fireworks, or you are only buying a single type of material, there is no worry whatsoever.

ErikSedell - 9-1-2025 at 23:31

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Keep in mind that potassium perchlorate is forbidden in the EU, even possession of that. So, if you do this, only take ammonium perchlorate.
Potassium perchlorate and sodium perchlorate both are cheap oxidizers, which are regarded as explosives precursors. Ammonium perchlorate is slower burning in most compositions and it is more expensive, both properties making it less attractive for making bulk explosives. In the EU you may possess ammonium perchlorate and you may buy it, but finding a supplier for this chemical becomes more and more difficult.

A few days ago, someone posted something about a seller (blast-tec.com, a Danish seller), which sells a slurry, which is a mix of water and solid KClO4, containing 40% KClO4. Formally, this is legal in the EU, but it is borderline. I do not have any personal experience with blast-tec.com.

Another option is making perchlorates yourself, using MMO and PbO2 electrodes. First make chlorate with MMO, then make perchlorate from the chlorate with a PbO2 anode. There is a nice eBay seller, who sells electrodes, or even complete kits. I do have exprience with that, and I can recommend this seller: https://www.ebay.nl/usr/feanor.forges
This of course is more work, but once you have the electrodes and power supply, you can make as much as you like.

thanks woelen! I did not know that. Do you know of a source for AP in Europe? Do you know if perchloric acid is restricted as well? I have thought about trying to find the acid instead, and use it to make whatever perchlorate I´d like.

//Erik

woelen - 10-1-2025 at 00:36

NH4ClO4 and HClO4 are not restricted, but they are more expensive. HClO4 is most expensive.

There are a few sellers over here, e.g. chemship1978 or mario, who most likely can get one of these chemicals for you (HClO4: 60% solution).

Anyway, I strongly advice against getting it in the US and then trying to get it at your home in Europe. That looks to me like asking for big trouble, given the responses of the other people. If you need small quantities of perchlorates, then easiest is buying half a liter of HClO4, if you need somewhat bigger quantities, then I would go the route through electrolysis of NaCl for NaClO3 with an MMO-anode, which you then in turn convert to NaClO4 with a PbO2 anode. Takes some time and hassle, but once you have things setup, you can make as much as you like from cheap NaCl and KCl.

Dr.Bob - 10-1-2025 at 15:31

Yes, federal law does allow many things as long as you don't store, ship, west and or sell them. But many states (east and west coast ones mostly) have much stricker laws, and some states have large penalties for them, including the one I am in. I know of several people who thought the federal rules would protect them and get in deep poo. But I also know many people who make their own fireworks, and are fine, but they have spent years getting the right paperwork and advice, plus they use some common sense in not blowing up things all of the time to irritate their neighbors. So while you are correct, it is very easy to get yourself in trouble if you don't know the rules well, or if you blow up your house by mistake (see recent cases in Hawaii and two other states).

Source: I have an ATF/state licenses and work with people in the firework business.

ErikSedell - 14-1-2025 at 06:44

Thank you all for sharing advice and experience. I will try to access some perchlorate in Europe instead, which seems hard but less gamble.

Or at some point make a cell for producing my own, but not for now.

Nemo_Tenetur - 14-1-2025 at 15:28

As woelen stated, the mere possession of sodium and potassium perchlorate without an approved commercial use is illegal in the EU. I don´t know the exact laws and penalties of all member states, but here in Germany you can get up to three years iron-filtered air, or a fine, or both.

Lithium perchlorate is not restricted, likewise perchloric acid, but both may be watched by the three letter agencies.

Ammonium perchlorate is not regulated by the EU directive, but is regulated here in Germany as a high explosive - you need a special permit (not just an approved commercial use!) to buy it.

woelen - 15-1-2025 at 00:24

From literature, I understand that ammonium perchlorate indeed can act as a high explosive, but initiating such an explosion is hard, very hard. I have some NH4ClO4 (as far as I know, in NL it is not restricted) and tried exploding 100 mg or so, but without success. Even hitting a small pile on a iron block with an iron hammer does not do anything. I think that you need some primary explosive to initiate explosion of NH4ClO4. I also tried strongly heating of a few tens of mg in a test tube. If you do that, it simply decomposes. This decomposition reaction can be quite violent, but it certainly is not an explosion.

I did no further experiments with NH4ClO4 in pyrotechnics. Pyrotechnics is forbidden in NL, you need a license for that, for professional work (e.g. commercial fireworks shows).

Actually, to my experience, NH4ClO4 is not that interesting, HClO4 is much more interesting. The latter can be used to make many perchlorates, and I use that for making interesting perchlorate salts of metal complexes.

Nemo_Tenetur - 15-1-2025 at 01:58

That´s really surprising. According to BAM (federal explosives agency, you could compare it´s power with the BATFE in the US), ammonium perchlorate is always classified as 1.1 D, prone to mass explosion, UN 0402.

It was explicitly scheduled here in Germany in the third explosive regulation law (3. SprengÄndG) as a high explosive and it was also stated that the scheduling was based on EU regulation according to test procedures issued by the United Nations.

Therefore it should be classified as high explosive within the whole EU??

Maybe you have some exemptions based on your national law (for example, small quantities for laboratory use)?

It is definitely able for mass explosion, see the PEPCON disaster in 1989. Of course not easy initiated, like ANFO, which is also classified (any mixtures of ammonium nitrate with more than 0,2 percent combustible material, see attached jpeg).

woelen - 15-1-2025 at 10:34

It is a high explosive, but not all high explosives are easily detonated. I think that the EU regulation is aiming at large volume amounts, which can be used to make powerful explosives, when combined with a suitable primary. I am inclined to think that small amounts in 100 gram quantities cannot be used as high explosive, the detonations most likely require a big mass in a compact volume. But I must admit, I am no expert on this subject, other over here know much more about it. Anyway, I could obtain some NH4ClO4, some years ago. The picture on the Wikipedia page about ammonium perchlorate is made by me, it is a picture of 100 grams of the solid, fairly coarsely crystallized. Besides that, I also have 200 grams or so of technical grade NH4ClO4, but the latter is really dirty stuff (it is pale brown and contains quite some insoluble matter). I obtained that from a Polish seller, who also was active on eBay sometimes. I don't know anymore who, he probably quit selling chemicals.

[Edited on 15-1-25 by woelen]

Deathunter88 - 15-1-2025 at 12:30

In the US NH4ClO4 is classified according to particle size, which makes the most sense since it is based on real life lab testing data (taking a sample, attempting to detonate it with a blasting cap, with a booster etc.)

AP with a particle size less than 15um is a 1.1D explosive, whereas AP with particle size larger than that is only a 5.1D oxidizer. This is the BATFE definition, which is what an individual possessing the material needs to be aware of. The Department of Transportation (DOT) and Department of Defense (DOD) have slightly different definitions, but that is only relevant to transport and storage within those government agencies.

Here is the ATF annually published list of explosives in case you're interested:
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2024-08-21/pdf/2024-1...

The following article provides a more detailed read, quite interesting:
https://osha.gov/publications/hib19910925

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Nemo_Tenetur - 15-1-2025 at 14:30

Thank you for both documents. It´s always interesting to compare explosive legislation from different countries. Most entries in the explosives schedules are single substances , but other entries are more like "catch-all-clauses".

I miss, for example, CL-20 as entry but this is probably covered by "organic nitramines", right?

But I think it´s not very difficult to find a loophole in the schedules. Is a pure salt (for example, methylammonium perchlorate) a "perchlorate explosive mixture" within this specific definition? For my understanding not. I think that a mixture means at least two different chemicals which are just blended without any chemical reaction or changes of the properties of the single compounds, a mechanical separation still possible.

Methylammonium perchlorate, however, is not just a mixture of gaseous methylamine and liquid perchloric acid, its a solid.

English is not my mother language and therfore it´s a little bit tricky for me to understand the full reach of this definition.

drakedevel - 20-1-2025 at 21:49

In this case there's a pretty big catch-all which makes the semantic questions irrelevant. From the part right before the list starts:

Quote:

Accordingly, the fact that an explosive material is not on the annual list does not mean that it is not within coverage of the law if it otherwise meets the statutory definition of ‘‘explosives’’ in 18 U.S.C. 841(d) and (j)

More generally, the US legal system relies heavily on judicial interpretation, and "how will a judge interpret this" is a question that even a native English speaker often needs a lawyer to reliably answer.