'White Gunpowder'

Quote: Originally posted by TitusGabonicus

I came across the composition for ‘White Gunpowder‘, around 40 years ago. Thus, I apologise for forgetting the two texts, from which it originated. White Gunpowder, at the time was considered, to be a well-known, high explosive.

Whte gunpowder is a misnomer.... it should be called
The White Explosive of Death.

If you check the index of Cunduill's 1895 Dictionary of
Explosives (I own an original copy you can DL yours
from Google.com/books.) You will find 35 explosives
containing Prussiate of potash. All too sensitive
for practical use - they are subject to unexpected
KAFUCKINGBOOM's.

The combination of K chloate and K ferro is extremely sensitive
to impact/friction. More sensitive even then the legendary
K chlorate - sulphur composition. This from —

AA Shidlovskii
Principles of Pyrotechnics (Osnsovy Pirotekhniki, Izd vo
Moscow 1964.)
AD A001859
Foreign Technology Division
Air Force Systems Command
23 October 1974



Byda - there are two ways of obtaing a copy of Shidlovski —

Purchase a copy of either the above or — The Picatinny Arsenal
version, AD 462474 (The AD A001859 one is easier to read.)
From the NTIS.

Purchase a reprise from — American Fireworks News.
www.fireworksnews.com

Quote: Originally posted by TitusGabonicus

I came across the composition for ‘White Gunpowder‘, around 40 years ago. Thus, I apologise for forgetting the two texts, from which it originated.

This from PGII Bulletin #120, July 2000.

I do not agree with Brian Bush's (The only person I know
who uses a typewriter — not Email!) statement —

While "white" or prussiate powders are currently
unfashionable, they are no more hazardous than
many other compositions commonly used in
fireworks."

Compared too suicidal Armstrong's mixture, sure, however,
I would posit that White gunpowder would run neck and neck
with K chlorate and either the red or yellow sulfides of arsenic
for sensitivity.

White gunpowder yields 1 400 hits a Google.com/books.

Before you mix any up ask yourself - If this was such a good
idea — why is it not currently used?

=======
SCATTERED


I WAS once called as an expert to visit a dynamite plant where a new kind of
high explosive was being manufactured instead of the ordinary nitroglycerin
dynamite. It consisted of a mixture of chlorate of potash [potassium chlorate],
sulphur, charcoal and paraffin wax. Its inventor had given it the reassuring name
of Double X Safety Dynamite.

A quarryman in a nearby town had, with his safety-ignoring habitude, attempted
to load a hole with the stuff, using a crowbar as a rammer, with the result that he
set off the charge, and the crowbar went though his head.

This unscheduled eventuation aroused the apprehension of the president of the
company, who was also its backer. He began to grow suspicious about the safety
of the material. Being so much interested, he went with me on my first visit of
inspection.

We left the train at a siding about a mile from the works, and had just started in
their direction when there came a sudden boom and roar, and the earth shook.
Over the powder works there rose a huge column of black smoke, flaring wide
into the sky.

We found a great crater where the mixing house had stood. Three men were
working in the building when the explosion occurred. A fortunate survivor who
had left the place a moment before to go for a bucket of drinking water, was
walking about the crater, apparently searching for something among the
scattered remnants. As we approached him, he sadly said:

"I can't find much of the boys. I guess you'll have to plow the ground if you want
to bury them."

Hudson Maxim Dynamite Stories 1916

Quote: Originally posted by TitusGabonicus

I came across the composition for ‘White Gunpowder‘, around 40 years ago. Thus, I apologise for forgetting the two texts, from which it originated. White Gunpowder, at the time was considered, to be a well-known, high explosive. The stated composition was:- 50% KClO3 25% C12 H22 011 25% K4Fe(CN)6 I have seen references to potassium ferrocyanide, (potassium hexoferrcyanate II) used in explosives manufacture, however, I have found no specific mention of the term 'White Gunpowder‘, ever since?. 20 grams, deflagrated with an explosive violence, faster than the eye could see. It left no residue. It had considerably more explosive force than a chlorate/sugar mix, alone. It is highly sensitive to friction. K4Fe(CN)6 is controlled ( due to potential cyanide production, & I believe, its known use in explosives). My own adaptation, which I call 'Powder of Prussian', replaces the K+ salt, with ‘Prussian Blue’ paint (ammonium ferriferrocyanate). It has an intermediate effect between the above composition & no K4Fe(CN)6., at all. Na4Fe(CN)6 is found in table salt! If this topic is of any interest, or more specific knowledge be known, your opinions would be appreciated.

Nitrocellulose is a high explosive as well...

My guess would be that the composition is deliberately fuel rich to take the edge off for propellant use. Takes pretty strong confinement for chlorate mitures to go "high order" anyway. Chlorate-sugar is one of the most flame sensitive mixtures IIRC, having one of the lowest ignition temperatures.

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

Nitrocellulose is a high explosive as well... My guess would be that the composition is deliberately fuel rich to take the edge off for propellant use. Takes pretty strong confinement for chlorate mitures to go "high order" anyway. Chlorate-sugar is one of the most flame sensitive mixtures IIRC, having one of the lowest ignition temperatures.

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

Fireworks compositions "were piled on the ground or on a concrete-floor in 5kg, 30kg, 50kg or 100kg and they were ignited with two squibs combined with powder pasted paper, Yakushi, or for some samples with two detonators. From 37 tests the reaction modes were classified into three: combustion, deflagration and detonation. Most gerbs showed combustion or deflagration except when a composition contained fine aluminium, the particle size of which was less then 300 mesh. The reaction of the composition with fine aluminium was promoted to detonation. The star grains of 100 kg shifted to detonation from several ten millisecond combustion and in other cases they showed combustion or deflagration. The star composition powders showed combustion even with a quantity of 100kg."

Quote: Originally posted by Blasty

I beg to differ on the last class of mixtures. Even black powder can explode without confinement if a large-enough quantity of it is set off at once. However, most people do not handle the huge amount of it that would be necessary for such a thing to happen.

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

Look Wizzie, you can babble all you want [snip] Even well confined chlorate+aluminum will not disintegrate a steel pipe, rather tear it or split it open.

My compliments to your pipe.







---------
Extracted from :—
RED PHOSPHORUS -- BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN
By Donald J Haarmann aka The WiZard is In.
American Fireworks News May, 1991

I have it in mind to make up a series of T-shirts proclaiming; I survived
Armstrong's mixture! with a box that could be checked proclaiming With all my fingers
intact!! There can be NO DOUBT that this combination is one of the five most
dangerous pyrotechnic compositions known. More than a few have come to regret
tempting the wrath-of-the-God's by compounding it!!! Perhaps the most famous victim
(excluding your fingers-still-intact author) of this infernal combination is Donald Sisco,
better known as "Kurt Saxon" of "Poor Man's James Bond" fame. The following is
quoted from his book:

"The photograph shows a spatula which had been used to stir a mixture of about
1/2 half ounce of potassium chlorate and a bit of red phosphorus. The mixer was
ignorant of the fact that these chemicals together, stirred dry, will detonate
spontaneously.

"The resulting blast kneaded the spatula out of shape. It atomized the first 3/4 inch of
the bone handle and split the rest. It shattered the plastic mixing bottle.

"The fingers holding the bottle had the flesh blown off the bones and the bare
bones had to be amputated. The palm of the hand was turned to hamburger and its
inner bones were smashed.

"The hand holding the spatula was undamaged except for particles of plastic
bottle which pierced the skin."


djh
----
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain;
And drinking largely sobers us again.

Alexander Pope
1688-1744

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

2.5 effective fragments (Not to be confused with the pictures earlier in the article) for 50 grams of chlorate-sugar by fuse ignition in a 3cm sphere (Steel type not specified, probably not weapons grade)... Have you considered the results with blackpowder ARE quite similar? (Which was my point) Please, think before writing a 4 hour post, get a life...

Sorry my scanner ate my life.




Sez on the back.

Upper: Black powder (Explosion velocity 240 m/s)
Lower: Chlorate explosive (Explosion velocity 2,700 m/s)


This link no longer works. I suspect when I DL'd this June 1997
someone forgot to close the door!

Explosion Investigation Section | Second Department of Forensic
Evaluation of explosion power. Detonation velocities, fragment
velocities, and blast pressure have been obtained to evaluate the
power of explosives and ...

www.npa.go.jp/nrips/en/second/explosion.html - Cached


----
I have asked the President of my Fan Club to forward you a
membership application.

People like wizzard, groundpndr and the same make that I rarely visit this forum nowadays, make such huge, dull written posts, that even scrolling past them is too much of an effort. Spending hours and hours on making intimidating looking post full of copy-pasted material from the net that is moreover usually totally unrelated to the topic in question, in order to force their ill conceived ideas upon others in the most irritating way possible. You can pick out the scientist directly, wondering about processes, asking the right questions and wanting to explore these ideas by practice, it is the very reason why this forum was founded, two sided communication ;-). The President of my fan-club line says it all, nothing but a joke...

Lets take it a step further, those who ever made chlorate-benzoate mixtures know how notoriously fast these are, almost able to self confine in 25 gram amounts. However... there are people that make working rockets out of them, HOW CAN THIS BE?! Good question!

Same goes for nitro-cellulose, I could claim it to be unsafe for use in a firearm, posting a list of all the accidents during manufacture, storage, pointing to its unstability and ability to go high order under the right conditions, flame sensitivity, but it doesnt prove a damn thing, since every modern firearm uses it... Could there be other factors?! Good question!

Details about the way of ignition, steeltype, composition and packing density are missing btw...

[Edited on 19-5-2011 by nitro-genes]

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

Upper: Black powder (Explosion velocity 240 m/s) Lower: Chlorate explosive (Explosion velocity 2,700 m/s)

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

People like wizzard, groundpndr and the same make that I rarely visit this forum nowadays, make such huge, dull written posts, that even scrolling past them is too much of an effort. Spending hours and hours on making intimidating looking post full of copy-pasted material from the net that is moreover usually totally unrelated to the topic in question, in order to force their ill conceived ideas upon others in the most irritating way possible. You can pick out the scientist directly, wondering about processes, asking the right questions and wanting to explore these ideas by practice, it is the very reason why this forum was founded, two sided communication ;-). The President of my fan-club line says it all, nothing but a joke...

There is no point in libraries if you are not able to actually read and interpret what is there on paper, that was my point...

And yes, I agree with Blasty, your blackpowder figures are lower than I seem to remember as well.

[Edited on 19-5-2011 by nitro-genes]

Oy, come on dude chill out. I for one find WiZard's posts very informative and helpful. I have followed up and read some of this references cited and learn much even by just lurking on the threads he posts in.

Personally I wish there were more folks like WiZard on this and other forums. He provides his valuable knowledge for free as a contribution to the Sciencemadness community and if you do not like what he says, just scroll on, no one is forcing you to read what he says and it is there for free for anyone to appreciate.

As someone who has left academia with its institutional access to delightful technical reading material I find alternative sources of such technical material to be utterly delightful

Sure, I couldn't agree more...

It's not that I disagree to posting (and reading!) references and reading material, not the slightest! I've collected more than a 1000 articles, patents, video's, web information, and about 30 books myself. Ive done a fair share myself. Though, some half-hearted reading on a topic for an evening is not making you an expert...but even that is not a problem in itself. Note that I tend to use words as, presumably, supposedly, IIRC, likely, could it be, etc when making a post, that is because subtle changes in conditions, materials etc can greatly influence the outcome, nothing in nature is fixed or black and white. Wizzard clearly had gotten the idea that every chlorate mixture is prone to explode and doesn't need any confinement to do so. I have actually made chlorate-sugar mixtures, and boy, they are a long way from flash or armstrong mixtures by which he compared them. Yet, he makes a zero tolerance policy of what he thinks is true in an irritating way by posting huge amounts of vagely-topic-related reference material and twisting facts for which he didn't gave any references.

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

Note that I tend to use words as, presumably, supposedly, IIRC, likely, could it be, etc when making a post, that is because subtle changes in conditions, materials etc can greatly influence the outcome, nothing in nature is fixed or black and white. Wizzard clearly had gotten the idea that every chlorate mixture is prone to explode and doesn't need any confinement to do so. I have actually made chlorate-sugar mixtures, and boy, they are a long way from flash or armstrong mixtures by which he compared them. Yet, he makes a zero tolerance policy of what he thinks is true in an irritating way by posting huge amounts of vagely-topic-related reference material and twisting facts for which he didn't gave any references.

Nothing like a disagreement between gentlemen to get your
neurons firing in the morning.

You use an overlay broad brush to paint what I have posted. I have
not posited that all chlorate compounds are that dangerous
if not fatal. Chlorate explosives are a very bad idea, they
had a very short life time of usage their dangers being recognized
early on.

Testing Potassium Chlorate Explosives at the U. S. Bureau of Mines
By S. P. Howell

Dr. Duprè, as cited by De Kalb**," says:

"Chlorate of potassium, on account of the readiness with which it
lends Itself to the production of powerful explosives, offers a great
temptation to inventors of new explosives, and many attempts
have been made to put it to practical use, but so far with very
limited success. This is chiefly owing to two causes. In the first
place, potassium chlorate Is a very unstable compound and is
liable to suffer decomposition under a variety of circumstances,
and under comparatively slight causes, chemical and mechanical.
All chlorate mixtures are liable to what is termed spontaneous
ignition or explosion in the presence of a variety of materials, more
particularly of such as are acid, or are liable to generate acid; and
all chlorate mixtures are readily exploded by percussion, such as a
glancing blow which might easily and would often occur in
charging a hole. In the second place, there is some evidence to
show that the sensitiveness to percussion and friction increases by
keeping, more especially if the explosive is exposed to the action
of moist and dry air alternately."

** De Kalb. Courtenay, Manual of explosives, 1900, p. 16.

Chlorate sugar? K chlorate and v/ fine confectioners' sugar can be
a lot more energetic then most would expect. I have previously
here noted the dangers of Sodium chlorate complete with
pictures.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15150&...

I have specifically noted the danger of K chlorate/ ferrocyanide
comps. used in comps such as White Gunpowder which also contains
sugar.

Personal experience is statistically useless. Even long term
experience.

Experience alone is not always a safe index to sound practice. In
on accident investigated by this Bureau, one man was killed and
two women in an adjacent building were injured by the detonation
of a sulfur-potassium chlorate composition in the process of being
mixed, although it was stated that the mixing operation
involved had been in use in that plant for 20 years without mishap.
There is, of course, the possibility that the raw material used
at the time of the accident may have been different from that upon
which past experience was based. Thus, if the particular lot of
sulfur employed were acid, abnormal sensitivity of the chlorate-
containing mixture might result. In any event, safe experience,
even for 20 years, would not justify a practice that exposed the mix
operator and others. Instead, the hazards should be recognized
and isolation and remote control provided.

Irving Kabik
Hazards from Chlorates and Perchlorates in Mixtures with Reducing Agents
U.S. Bureau of Mines
Information Circular 7340
December 1945.

Here do-be for you edification/education a scan of an article
I published in the Pyrotechnics Guild International [Inc]
Bulletin. I have included a page (1 of 17) of the late Dr. Shimizu's
test results from which I prepared the graphs.





I would be academically remiss if I didn't note Bill Ofaca's
firework related :—

Bill Ofaca's Technique in Fire
Volume 10
Working Safely With Chlorate
KClO₃ and Ba(ClO₃₂^.H₂O


djh
----
PGII Bulletin

haarmann donald j — Blackpowder Composition — Around the World and Through the Ages 64
haarmann donald j — Fireworks and Selected Pyrotechnic Patents 60
haarmann donald j — Hazards form Salute/Flash/Star Compositions — A brief literature survey 65
haarmann donald j — Probability of having an accident … KClO3 binary mixtures 86
haarmann donald j — Sensitivity of Pyrotechnic Compounds II - Sensitivity as Determined by Oxidizer 70
haarmann donald j — The Sensitivity of Pyrotechnic Compounds I 70
haarmann donald j (The WiZ) — Old vs. New Chemical Nomenclature 71
haarmann donald j (The WiZ) — WARNING — WARNING — WARNING [Sodium Chlorate] 68
haarmann, donald j — [Historical] Early Use of Pyrotechnics for Photographic Illumination 128/40
haarmann, donald j — [Historical] The Uses of Dynamite 1877 129/65
haarmann, donald j — Early Mention of the Use of Aluminum in Fireworks 122/18
haarmann, donald j — Excerpts from Reminiscences Edmund Soper Hunt, 1907 121/43. Hunt’s patents 122/25
haarmann, donald j — Granulation of Potassium Nitrate Blackpowders 55
haarmann, donald j — Granulation of Sodium Nitrate Blackpowders 55
haarmann, donald j — Letter to the AMA 45
haarmann, donald j — Oxidizers and the Single Pyro 56
haarmann, donald j — Pyrotechnic Mole Control 46
haarmann, donald j — Questions and Answers (What is Tris (Nitronium) aluminum hexaperchlorate 33
haarmann, donald j — Safety of Copper/Brass Screens with Chlorate Compositions 41
haarmann, donald j — Sieves 42
haarmann, donald j — The WiZ’s Pyro Trivia Quiz 111/62
haarmann, donald j (The WiZ) — Exploding Targets 48
haarmann, donald j (The WiZ) — Mission Improbable 56
haarmann, donald j (The WiZ) — The Few, The Proud, The Sulfates 46



[Edited on 21-5-2011 by The WiZard is In]

Nitro-genes, clearly, is mixing his wizards - we have at least three!
Wiz I,- Wiz II - and Wiz III - in chronological order might simplify matters?

"From a statistical point of view personal experience is useless"

Reasoning like this you could say that science as a whole is useless!

Anyway, to get back to reality...

I know about all the dangers of chlorate compositions upon storage, manufacture, friction/impact etc etc. Still, chlorate-sugar is not something that detonates in your face when you keep a small amount in a lightly confined container. Again, it needs quite heavy confinement. In gram amounts, I just can't imagine this composition making it to 2300 ms like for blasting cap initiated cheddite, that produces about 2500 bars of pressure. (Hardly a high explosive, considering ANFO produces 40.000 bar) Bullseye smokeless powder will produce barrel pressures up to 1200 bar (IIRC ), with presumably a considerable safety margin. Now, we are talking gram amounts om an overfueled mixture, and without initiation by a blasting cap. Fuse ignition of flashpowders normally produces around 700-1100 bars of pressure IIRC, and would thus not able to rupture or fragment a barrel.

[Edited on 21-5-2011 by nitro-genes]

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

"From a statistical point of view personal experience is useless" Reasoning like this you could say that science as a whole is useless!

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

"From a statistical point of view personal experience is useless" Reasoning like this you could say that science as a whole is useless! Anyway, to get back to reality...

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

Sure, I couldn't agree more... It's not that I disagree to posting (and reading!) references and reading material, not the slightest! I've collected more than a 1000 articles, patents, video's, web information, and about 30 books myself. Ive done a fair share myself. Though, some half-hearted reading on a topic for an evening is not making you an expert...but even that is not a problem in itself. Note that I tend to use words as, presumably, supposedly, IIRC, likely, could it be, etc when making a post, that is because subtle changes in conditions, materials etc can greatly influence the outcome, nothing in nature is fixed or black and white. Wizzard clearly had gotten the idea that every chlorate mixture is prone to explode and doesn't need any confinement to do so. I have actually made chlorate-sugar mixtures, and boy, they are a long way from flash or armstrong mixtures by which he compared them. Yet, he makes a zero tolerance policy of what he thinks is true in an irritating way by posting huge amounts of vagely-topic-related reference material and twisting facts for which he didn't gave any references.

Quote: Originally posted by Blasty

Another type of chlorate mixtures that are not in the same class as those unstable mixtures are the ones that contain fats, oils, alcohol or petroleum hydrocarbons, which act as desensitizing agents for potassium and sodium chlorate. Some of these are stable enough that they were even approved for use in grenades, mines and plane bombs in WWI.

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

You can find a list in Arthur Marshall's - Dictionary of Explosives, 1920. I own an original copy I would bet even money that you can find a copy to DL using Google or some such. While between the covers see what he has to say 'bout White Gunpowder.

Quote: Originally posted by Blasty

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In   You can find a list in Arthur Marshall's - Dictionary of Explosives, 1920. I own an original copy I would bet even money that you can find a copy to DL using Google or some such. While between the covers see what he has to say 'bout White Gunpowder. Yes, I am familiar with the work in question. He says that "white gunpowder" is too sensitive and is not produced commercially. But the reason why this particular mixture is more dangerous than other sugar-chlorate mixtures is because of the ferrocyanide. Plain sugar-chlorate mixtures or even the ones that are accelerated by the presence of a chromate are certainly less dangerous.

Sorry I cannot stop this from being posted in italic.

Plain sugar-chlorate mixtures yes I agree, however,
don't be lured into complacency (familiarly builds contempt)
K chlorate mixed with confectioners sugar can be quite energetic.

Well know extremely sensitive chlorate mixtures :—

K ferrocyanide
Red Phosphorus
Realgar
Orpiment
Antimony trisulphide





I like NC Asthana's book it is a wealth of information and a
good read.

I should let this go and see if anyone notices it — NC Asthana
sez Realgar - Brock Orpiment.


djh
----


Coming next week — Appositives both restrictive and nonrestrictive.

Food fight

If the ATF had made it ... there would have been more
pieces.

The articles following page(s) can be found not in my files. Sorry.

Nitroglycerin 5.0 Chlorate Explosives 7.5

Joseph Howard McLain
Pyrotechnics From the View Point of Solid State Chemistry
The Franklin Institute Press
1980




I ran this down it dobe from the French —

Journal Official
April 8, 1919.


djh
----
ein Gelehrter hat keine Weile.

[Edited on 29-5-2011 by The WiZard is In]

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

Joseph Howard McLain Pyrotechnics From the View Point of Solid State Chemistry The Franklin Institute Press 1980 I ran this down it dobe from the French — Journal Official April 8, 1919.

Quote: Originally posted by Blasty

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In   Joseph Howard McLain Pyrotechnics From the View Point of Solid State Chemistry The Franklin Institute Press 1980 I ran this down it dobe from the French — Journal Official April 8, 1919. What "chlorate explosives" are being referred to? Because there is no way that such chlorate mixtures as cheddite, explosif P/S, minelites, Michalowski's miner's powder, asphaline, etc. are more dangerous than nitroglycerine.

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

Quote: Originally posted by Blasty   Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In   Joseph Howard McLain Pyrotechnics From the View Point of Solid State Chemistry The Franklin Institute Press 1980 I ran this down it dobe from the French — Journal Official April 8, 1919. In hast I failed to add - I too find this hard to beleive, however, What "chlorate explosives" are being referred to? Because there is no way that such chlorate mixtures as cheddite, explosif P/S, minelites, Michalowski's miner's powder, asphaline, etc. are more dangerous than nitroglycerine. Just hop on over to the Bibliothèque nationale de France (BnF) and pull up a copy of the April 8th 1917 editon of Journal Official and report back to the collective. You will get extra credit for an English translation. However, it is not payable in this world. Sorry.