Sciencemadness Discussion Board - ETN: almost killed myself... READ!

ETN: almost killed myself... READ!

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holmes1880 - 12-6-2011 at 15:50

I know its flimsy. Blasting cap has a critical zone where the pressure is the highest. For a 300mg base charge and 200mg primary, size 6, the zone would be 1cm; at 2cm the pressure pressure would be exponentially lower. @3cm you may not even lose the finger, but you'd get shredded/ heavy bruising.
I wish there was some data on that, but I have failed to find it in the past.

I will redesign my pressing station soon, probably using a very thick wooden block wrapped in a bubble wrap and some gorilla tape.

Why hold it???

albqbrian - 12-6-2011 at 17:02

Why would your hand need to hold it? Surely it can't be too difficult to find some alternative that keeps your hand off the thing? I know the chemistry part is always more interesting; but we need to give some thought to basic "fixtures" that can add a huge level of safety for very little investment.

The old US Army manual on improvised explosives has a nice press set up. You end up pressing down on the end of a decently long stick thus placing you well away from the stuff being pressed.

Blasty - 13-6-2011 at 03:15

Quote: Originally posted by Lord Emrone

holmes, your ETN-press-thing doesn't look safe. You should surround the cap with an absorbing material like styrofoam. Wood doesn't absorb. If your fingers are in the same position as on the picture during a det, you could very well lose your thumb. And instead of aluminium you should use paper.

Back in the days when I used to tinker with HMTD, I would surround the loaded aluminum tubes with lead ingots. When one of these tubes exploded during pressing with a wooden dowel, most of the shock and shrapnel was effectively absorbed by the ingots. My ears were ringing for several days, though. That was the end of my HMTD ventures. I do not trust peroxides.

Lord Emrone - 13-6-2011 at 07:12

luckily for you this happened when making the cap. I wish I had had such an experience before my accident, but my AP seems to be undetonatable without a hammer.

OT : the topic title isn't right, there is almost no way TS would be killed, even with cut veins. It takes a lot more to get a serious chance to kill a full-grown human being.

Bot0nist - 13-6-2011 at 07:27

While the amount of ETN that detonated may not have been enough to end aqua's life, it was more than enough to end it 'as he knows it' if he had been holding the test tube a little higher, or a little lower. Ask any man who has lost his ability to see, or his genitals.

A severed artery, coupled with a loss of consciousness can lead to death through blood loss very quickly, and in any right, I'm sure aqua's feelings when initiating this thread were a bit panicked. I bet he realized that had the amount in the test tube been slightly more and if he was slightly closer a very severe injury could have resulted.

pjig - 13-6-2011 at 07:59

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

I use electrical tape, gorilla tape, and again electrical tape. It would be shocking if the wood would splinter through those layers. I'm wearing thick goggles, just in case, so I'd be all right. Hearing would suffer, I'm sure, but in the short term.

P.S. Yes, I need to put it to the test in a thick cardboard box to see how the splinters behave and whether the wood is catching the aluminum shrapnel.

[Edited on 12-6-2011 by holmes1880]

I just got to say, this is very dangerous if you are holding it while pressing. A press with a blast shield is a must for your protection ... Just a thought but test one of your blocks by firing a cap off in it and see the real test, you could place a soft item like a melon or something next to it to simulate your hand. See if it doesnt detour you forever from holding one of these things while loading it.

The "Professional" "Amateur"

The WiZard is In - 13-6-2011 at 08:21

Recently [ca. 1983, in the FDR], an about 80-year old pensioner was
suspected in spite of his old age, to occasionally supply against
payment anarchist circles with explosives... During forensic
examination of the exhibits the interest was soon concentrating on a
yellow substance similar to picric acid which had been seized in
powdered form, but also pressed into bars....By IR- and ^{1 H-

HMR spectrometric methods it was possible to quickly identify this

chemical as...---.... &c.

...has found little application as an explosive in former times,

however, was during World War II to a limited extent...

Nowadays, it seems that it has almost no significance anymore.

[Edited on 13-6-2011 by The WiZard is In]}

Rosco Bodine - 13-6-2011 at 09:42

Quote: Originally posted by aquaregia

I have a wife and kid which I love ...[snip].

I do not believe in the divine and am a comfirmed atheist.

But, when you consider that the glass only hit my torso and harms instead of my eyes (I was not wearing goggles even though I normally do), it is a miracle. [snip] Life is very beautiful for me right now, and I never appreciated life as much as I do now. Can I be any clearer?

There is some contradiction in what things you say.
You are on a steep learning curve, but only parts of it are you getting right. Here's a bit of music to accompany you on your path to enlightenment, which is only so much connecting the dots....where the distance permits. Where the distance is greater .....you have to make a leap of faith to reach the next handhold or step.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeoRGIeYWiQ In The Palm Of Your Hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdT5BK-eqVY Remind Me Dear Lord

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10W09CEChCg Canto Della Terra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz0QsNAUjpo Come To The Savior

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZSLwmdHExI Lead Kindly Light

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9oW91Iv8D8 Are You Washed In The Blood?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNDSjrdj530 The Lord Is My Shepherd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO17DIeI7Ec The Lord Bless You And Keep You

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6qE6QEqFl8 Eternal Light

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5HOBFpZRUE Deep Peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sgD2JXk4XQ How Shall I Sing That Majesty?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW93fUe_GwU Adoro Te

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06D2zcGFuXQ May The Road Rise Up

Get Well Soon

holmes1880 - 13-6-2011 at 10:45

Edit: getting back on topic.
I think a thick wooden block and a long dowel should suffice without having to create any pressing machinery. That being said, if I was pressing a peroxide or MF, I would consider making a press as remote as possible.

[Edited on 13-6-2011 by holmes1880]

pjig - 13-6-2011 at 10:49

Thanks for the interesting pics WIZ... That guy had quite simple yet effective setup. I still would feel much better with a blast shield between me and the press. Were the molds used to press the other exp.'s as in booster pellets etc..? I'd imagine that the metal former with the inserts (sized to fit the caps) served as a protective barrier between him and the cap. All very interesting to see how someone else does their dirty business .

The WiZard is In - 13-6-2011 at 11:33

Quote: Originally posted by pjig

Thanks for the interesting pics WIZ... That guy had quite simple yet effective setup. I still would feel much better with a blast shield between me and the press. Were the molds used to press the other exp.'s as in booster pellets etc..? I'd imagine that the metal former with the inserts (sized to fit the caps) served as a protective barrier between him and the cap. All very interesting to see how someone else does their dirty business .

The press was not the subject of the paper therefore, no
details were provided.

Forensic Comparison of Explosive Samples by Proton Magnetic
Resonance Spectrometry.

djh
----
The Dance of Death

Two girl employees of an explosive factory
in Westquater were engaged in carrying
a box containing detonating caps and priming
composition for same form the magazine
into the workroom. They set the box on the
ground and began to dance together. One
of the girls stumbled and turned over the
box of explosives, which caused the
explosion of the whole load, and both
girls were blown to pieces.

J. Phillips
The Handling of Dangerous Goods, 249; 1896
In:— H Brunswig
Explosives
John Wiley & Sons
New York 1912

holmes1880 - 13-6-2011 at 12:50

^ What? You'd think she'll at least act like a human shield from all those caps going off. How many caps were there for heaven's sake?

The WiZard is In - 13-6-2011 at 14:00

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

^ What? You'd think she'll at least act like a human shield from all those caps going off. How many caps were there for heaven's sake?

Sorry my time machine is down for maintenance.

Human shield well someone(s) witnessed the accident
and survived to tell the tale...

The Annual Report (Nineteenth) of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Explosives for 1894.
Extracted in:— The Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry. July 31, 1895.

From experiments which have been made, it has been decided to raise the
dividing line between a cap, and a detonator, the distinction, being defined as
follows ; " A percussion cap to be one containing a charge not exceeding 0.5
grain of composition, or 0.6 grain of composition where the quantity of fulminate
does not exceed one fourth of such composition; in any other case the cap will
rank as a detonator." But it is pointed out that "where the caps, are raised to a
high temperature by the aid of artificial heat, or even still more decidedly when
loose composition becomes intermixed therewith," the liability to explode en
masse " undoubtedly presents itself in a very appreciable and even a formidable
degree."—W. M.

The NY Public Library has a complete run of HM Inspectors of
Explosives reports - they are fascinating reading. However,
do to their really poor state ... printed on really cheap paper
they would will not copy them other then by photographing
big $$$$. Every-time I looked at them I said to myself ...
if anyone drops these ... they will turn to dust. There was
a set for sale some years ago, however, it was beyond my
exchequer at the time to purchase them.

I am still amazed at the difference between England and the US of
A. When there is/was an explosive accident in England it was
investigated by HM Inspectors of Explosives and published in
the annual report. In the USA accidents are investigated by the
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. Their reports are
written up, shown to no one - placed in a rocket and fired into
outer space never to be seen again.

Explosion of detonator composition ; Circumstances attending an——-which
occurred at the factory of Messrs. Kynoch, Ltd., at Holford Mills, near
Birmingham, Staffs, on July 29, 1913. Major T. H. Crozier, H.M. Inspector of
Explosives. (Cd. 7090.1

Tim first explosion appears to have occurred at the priming machine, and was
probably caused by some action of the workwoman in connection with this
apparatus. It was possible, that a small quantity of fulminate composition might
have adhered to the underside of the plate, or the guides for the block, and that it
might have been fired by the action of sliding the block into position. The camel's
hair brush used for spreading the composition over the tray was a flat one with a
light wooden handle. The metal socket holding the hair was bound round
carefully with indiarubber tape, and the brush had been in use nearly a fortnight.
It was perhaps possible that a blow from the wooden handle might be sufficient
to explode a thin film of fulminate composition. The second explosion was
caused by the first, which shook down the cement lining, bringing with it a
cupboard containing a bowl of fulminate composition, and this bowl exploded on,
or near, the floor below the position of the cupboard. The inspector considers
that the explosion was entirely accidental and that no blame could be attached to
any person in connection with it. Work was proceeding in a regular manner and
the only suggestion made is that the brush employed for spreading the
composition on the tray of the priming machine should have some form of handle
other than wood. A handle either of buff leather or indiarubber would be
preferable-C. W. McD.

79--What other Accidents than those caused by Frozen Material may occur in handling
Explosives.

Another kind of accident in handling is reported in the 1905 Report of H.M. Inspectors
of Explosives, from which many of the examples following are also taken. A contractor,
having prepared the charge and fixed the detonator, is said to have attempted to make
a water-tight joint with the fuse by cutting off a piece of the explosive (Blasting Gelatine)
and applying a lighted match to melt it. When the cartridge caught fire the deceased
attempted to extinguish it by grasping it in his hand, whereupon it exploded.

Fifty-seven accidents are reported to have been caused during 1905 by explosives
being ignited by a naked flame or spark in the course of blasting operations, and in
every case but two gunpowder was the explosive involved.

Three persons were killed and 63 injured by these accidents, which were, in many
cases, due to nonconformity with the usual regulation enjoining the removal of the
candle or lamp from the cap before preparing a charge. Numerous accidents also occur
in connection with the insertion of a detonator in a charge, and also in the practice of "
socketing," which consists in the use of small charges for enlarging the end of a
borehole, to enable a powder charge to be concentrated at the back of the hole.

Others have arisen owing to want of knowledge as to the extremely sensitive nature
and violent properties of fulminate of mercury, which is the essential component of a
detonator.

There is an instance recorded of an official shot-firer in a mine who withdrew the electric
fuse from a detonator cap and then proceeded to extract "the stuff in the end of the
tube " by the aid of a pin. The " stuff " of course exploded, and the official lost one eye
and three fingers.

Another accident occurred in the following manner at a colliery where electric shot-firing
had recently been introduced : A number of underground officials were together in their
"cabin," engaged in writing their reports. One of them was testing electric detonators
through a dry cell and galvanometer circuit. The latter instrument had three terminals,
one common, the other two attached respectively to low and high resistance coils. A
certain " cap," just tested, gave no deflection on the galvanometer needle, and was
therefore inferred to, be a bad one. An onlooker essayed to repeat the test, and,
assuming that the detonator really was faulty, applied, as he thought, the same test as
before. Unfortunately for him he completed the circuit through the low instead of the
highresistance galvanometer coils and the detonator " went off." The man lost two
fingers. Another operator tested a detonator through a low-resistance galvanometer,
and, cautious in his. way, used a dry cell supposed to be almost exhausted.

He, too, neglected the important precaution of placing the detonator in an iron tube or
otherwise out of barm's way before testing, and, as its " bridge " chanced to be
somewhat weaker than usual, it exploded, and a piece of the copper capsuler became
embedded in his eye.

Eleven accidents of this character occurred in 1905. In three of there cases it seems
probable that the injured person & were fully aware of the dangerous nature of the
article, and bad only their own folly to blame for their injuries.

In two cases there is no reason 'to persons bad any idea of the danger the cases it may
be assumed, from the fact t that the injured person was aware that they was probably
unaware that they were dangeroously so.

WM Maurice
The Shot-Firer's Guide: A Practical Manual on Blasting and the Prevention of Blasting
Accidents.
"The Electrician" Publishing Co. London nd ca 1910

holmes1880 - 13-6-2011 at 15:56

SMH @ the electric cap testing. So they were testing if the circuit is complete and whether the bridge wire has not separated. Without having a detonator covered by a sandbag, this is so absurdly reckless. I use 20 AWG wire in my electric setups for safety, and MF isn't my choice of primary.

With that being said, I also believe they were holding the cap by the explosive section, and that's what takes the fingers. Holding a cap by the insulating header vs. where the primary and the base charge is...so 1-2 cm, could mean a difference between bruising or vaporization of tissue and bone. In my caps, the insulating header is 4cm long, and that's how I prefer to handle it or leg wires.

[Edited on 14-6-2011 by holmes1880]

Rosco Bodine - 16-6-2011 at 21:18

@aquaregia Hope you are feeling better. Of course it is fortunate that the entire sample did not go, as the part which did not go may have had your number on it.
You really should count your lucky stars, or however it is you give thanks. In chemistry of course, temperature matters. If temperature matters in the temporal then it may also matter in the eternal .....just a thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UYfa0jeL4k Mystico

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jQkT5dsupQ
a bit more piano

Keep in mind all those things for which fingers may be good to keep on hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaMkj4_H8WM For The Beauty Of The Earth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlhV80QPUuI All Things Bright and Beautiful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLxM0s6XOJo Look At The World

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzTbo1XQfvE In Michael's Realm

[Edited on 17-6-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

freedompyro - 16-6-2011 at 23:00

This guys accident was his own fault. You should never "burn" your equipment clean... Ethanol, methanol, and acetone are your friends...

Holmes I think I might be the person you were referring to on youtube earlier in this thread. This name ring a bell?

I no longer have any interest in ETN, however... I would like to note that I never had any problems with pure ETN. I do remember that most times in order to get a purity high enough for detailed use it would require a double recrystallization... Sometimes even then only the top half of the crystals had enough clarity to be considered for use.

I later changed my synthesis so that I was able to obtain a stable acid free product without recrystallization. If I remember correctly it required reducing the E to a powder less than 500 mesh before nitration that could be sufficiently deacidified without recrystallization... Once deacidified it was then suspended in a sodium bicarbonate/water solution and heated to melting and precipitated to the bottom and then allowed to cool into a solid cast. This was done via a double boiler. Never did long term storage stability tests though...

The sensitivity of ETN seemed pretty low to impact from all the tests I did. I once attempted to hammer 50mg enclosed in Al foil on a granite counter but couldn't get it to do anything so I proceeded to use a torch on it and knocked out my hearing for 10 minutes...

With heat and confinement it gets unstable easily... I was able to reliability DDT it with American Visco fuse with heavy confinement. Chinese fuse types wouldn't work.

I have never had an accident in pyrotechnics or HE. Nowadays I consider the primary/rocket/tube method to be the only truly 99.999999999% safe way to DDT a substance... Odd how much safer I am nowadays even though I never had any accidents.

[Edited on 17-6-2011 by freedompyro]

quicksilver - 17-6-2011 at 05:28

A good quality sample of ETN has a very high sensitivity to impact; it was the granite that altered the example (IMO). Steel on steel would be more appropriate & there you'd see something remarkably close to MHN.
Realistically there are several issues that could have altered testing results but a dissimilar hardened surface is often problematic for impact testing.

[Edited on 17-6-2011 by quicksilver]

holmes1880 - 17-6-2011 at 06:41

Not sure freedom, I think it maybe another guys who uses the candle. Maybe your imposter?
For any ETN use, you have to recrystallize at least 1 time. It also helps tremendously if you work with small quantities- under 10grams.

That's very true, silver, that pure product is damn sensitive to impact. Usually first hit steel on steel sticks ETN to the hammer or compresses it on the surface, and the 2nd hit sets it off every time. 30cm hammer drop usually suffices.

With all that said, ETN is safer than LA, SA, DDNP, or any peroxide by a wide margin. It will never go off from static or normal friction, nor pressing. MHN, on the other hand, has been reported to do some of those things.....it is quite a bit more sensitive, although still safer than any primary.

What is "primary/rocket/tube"?

[Edited on 17-6-2011 by holmes1880]

the Z man - 17-6-2011 at 07:53

Ok I see now it is the time of technical discussion and this post may be a little bit off topic, but I really want to say something before leaving. Obviously I want to say to aquaregia that he has all my respect for having shared his experience and I'm glad he's pretty fine. Then I would like to thank everyone who made me understand how really dangerous this kind of experiments are. You know when you start it's all fun and jokes and it is very easy to have the "it will never happen to me" attitude. Sometimes only strong words make you understand better, especially when you are kind of fool and/or you are young (like me actually

) I remember a topic on azides where IIRC quicksilver and someone else wrote really harsh posts to anyone who was thinking about using azides without understanding the real dangers, that was a lot of people actually, me included

. After that topic I started thinking that maybe I had to have a break and think if I really wanted to go on. Then, in this months, I realized that now I have many other things that keep my mind occupied. I am not sure now I have the needed concentration for not committing any error. And when you're messing with dangerous reagents and especially HEs every single error can lead to really serious consequences for yourself and others. My best wishes for everyone, have fun and stay safe. Good luck

holmes1880 - 17-6-2011 at 10:47

HE accidents are tied directly to experimenter's IQ. There are people on here who've worked and tested energetics for decades and never had an accident. Why? Because they are intelligent and they make intelligent choices.

I don't buy this "everyone makes mistakes" excuse. The real issue is *what kind* and *how many* mistakes you make. When people have an accident they tend to meet several conditions that adds up to a bad result. If you think of any known accident, there is more than 1 mistake that is made and the person having an accident knew that they were taking a big risk.

There is a reason people like silver or Bodine never had an accident. See my first sentence.

freedompyro - 17-6-2011 at 10:54

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

What is "primary/rocket/tube"?

[Edited on 17-6-2011 by holmes1880]

Make/cut a tube, make a rocket that just fits inside. Glue (Nitrocellulose lacquer works) a small amount of primary at the tip of the black powder rocket compressed and encased in very thin plastic/al foil. For more heat at the tip of the rocket you can fill in around the primary with a high heat composition... Eg, silicone metal black powder.

Fuse and fire the rocket into the charge via the tube. If the primary goes off from static or something random pre set-up it's no problem. :/ Very similar to a drop cap but it can be placed at any angle... Like sideways which is required for getting rid of dead trees...

[Edited on 17-6-2011 by freedompyro]

The WiZard is In - 17-6-2011 at 11:06

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

I don't buy this "everyone makes mistakes" excuse. The real issue is *what kind* and *how many* mistakes you make. When people have an accident they tend to meet several conditions that adds up to a bad result. If you think of any known accident, there is more than 1 mistake that is made and the person having an accident knew that they were taking a big risk.

If you think of any known accident, there is more than 1
mistake that is made and the person having an accident knew that they were taking a big risk.

Well .... yes.

Hudson Maxim
Dynamite Stories
1916

DISCHARGING PAT

A WORKS foreman of mine had been employed as assistant
superintendent in another dynamite factory told me the following
story:

He one day intercepted an Irish laborer who was taking a barrel,
which had been used for settling nitroglycerin, down to the soda
house, with the intention of filling it with hot nitrate of soda from the
drying-pans. The foreman scolded Pat roundly, and told him that,
should he do such a reckless thing again, he would be instantly
discharged. The foreman then went to the superintendent's office
and reported the matter.

In the meantime, Patrick, utterly ignoring the injunction, simply
waited for the foreman to disappear, then proceeded to the drying
house with the barrel and began to fill it with the hot nitrate of soda.
Over in the superintendent's office the foreman had just completed
his narration of Pat's carelessness, when there was a thunderous
report and a crash of glass, and Pat's booted foot landed on the
office floor between them.

The superintendent dryly remarked, "Evidently, Pat is already
discharged!"

And no.

(c) Accidents when Firing.—Accidents have frequently happened. where men, either from ignorance
of the fact that a shot was being fired or from want of judgment, exposed themselves to the flying
d6bris. Rigid adherence to a suitable code of rules should be the means adopted for the prevention
of this ,class of casualty.

Following are records of a number of accidents belonging to this class:

1. Through not taking Proper Cover.—At a mine in Durham deceased fired a shot by electricity when
standing 23 yards from the shot-hole in the direct line of fire. He was struck by a stone. A small
refuge hole was available close by.

A shot-firer was struck by débris from a shot in a Derbyshire mine through using so short a cable that
he could not take proper cover. A minimum length of cable is now specified in the Explosives in Coal
Mines Order (see 2 (e), p. 173).

Some eight years ago an accident of an almost incredible nature happened in a north country
colliery, and is instanced as evidence of the necessity for extreme caution in those engaged in
shot-firing. In Fig. 70 [alt.art.pyrotechnics fig. 70] will be seen a plan and sections through a heading
or tunnel driven in the rock. Two men, father and son, having connected the line wire with a charge,
in the head end, placed themselves for safety behind the second ventilation door as shown. The
young man, standing with his back to the door, fired the shot and, according to the father's statement,
the door opened at the moment he heard the sound of the explosion and his son rolled over dead.

2. Through neglect or omission to see that all Persons are in sale positions before completing the
Firing Circuit.—Two men were recently killed at different Durham collieries. Each was connecting the
cable to the detonator leads, when the shot-firer, thinking the man had taken cover, exploded the
charge.

At a colliery in Northumberland a shot missed fire, and on testing the cable it was found to be
defective. The shot-firer cut off a portion of the cable and sent the hewer to short-circuit the further
end of the cable (for the purpose of a re-test). Through some misunderstanding, the latter connected
it up with the detonator leads, and on the shot-firer attempting to make the test the charge exploded,
killing the hewer.

At a Durham colliery, whilst the shot-firer was connecting up the leads, the hewer by mistake turned
on the current, causing the shot to explode.

At a Staffordshire mine a shot was fired while the cable was being attached, through the use of the
battery for testing cable at the same time. One man was killed and another injured.

A shot-firer left the cable from a missed shot attached to his low-tension battery. On coupling the shot
wires to the cable the charge exploded and he was killed.

Another accident, the cause of which will strike the reader as being particularly stupid, occurred in a
midland colliery.

A shot-firer, having made the connection between the wires connected to the charge and his line,
requested another workman to hold the wires apart at the joints, so that in paying off cable no
short-circuit would be produced through an inadvertent pull. Having paid out sufficient length to place
himself in a safe position, he immediately fired the shot, forgetful of the fact that his comrade was
holding the wires at the shot-hole. It is difficult to say which of the two men most deserved the
inevitable punishment.

3. Through contact with Electric Signal Wires.-An unexpected fatality occurred some years ago in a
stone drift branching at right angles off a main haulage road. In the head end, distant, perhaps, 80 or
100 ft., a shot-firer joined the fuse wires to his firing line, and proceeded to pay out the latter towards
the main road at the same time that the workmen were engaged in removing their tools from the
working face. On the arrival of the official at the junction of the roads the portion of firing line
remaining uncoiled was passed over a set of bare iron electric signal wires. In this act either the two
'free ends of the cable or possibly a bare end of one and an uninsulated place in the other in some
way completed the circuit through the signalling battery, and as a consequence the charge, ex-
ploded, causing the death of one of the workmen remaining in the vicinity of the shot.

Another accident, the cause of which was traced to the use of signalling wires, occurred at the
Worsley Mesnes Colliery, with fatal results to two workmen. The circumstances (vide Report of the
Inspector of Mines for the Liverpool District, 1904) were extraordinary.

It appeared that three drill holes were prepared at the face of a steep tunnel, and one of the
deceased, who was the appointed shot-firer, came there, bringing his firing battery with him. This he
left at the top of the tunnel, and going down, proceeded to charge and stem the three holes, and
having completed this work he was heard to say " Which shall I fire first ? " Immediately afterwards
there was a violent explosion. The evidence given at the inquest made it clear that the shot-lighter
used the signalling wires to fire the shot, forgetting, or not appreciating the fact that the wires were
attached to or in circuit with an eight-cell battery.

An eight-cell battery (say, 8 or 9 volts) is not normally strong enough to fire a detonator such as was
used here, but when a bell is in the circuit and this is rung, there is an induced, or, as it is called in
the Report, an " extra breaking " current for an instant giving. a spark, as is the case in switching off a
motor.

By experimenting with dummy detonators (i.e., electric fuses), Mr. Hall found that it was quite easy to
fire the shot by this means ; all that was necessary was that the wires should touch each other after
being attached to the shot, then instantly the bell rang and the shot went off. In this accident there
was a breach of Special Rules in that the deceased shot-lighter did not have his firing battery with
him whilst coupling up to the charge.

A third fatality arising out of the use of signal wires for shot-firing occurred at a colliery near
Wakefield so recently as April, 1908. Experience cannot teach if men wont learn.

4. Through misunderstandings between Workmen.—At least 20 serious accidents have arisen
through misunderstanding between a shot-firer and a fellow workmen. A charge for some reason
misses fire. One man goes to seek the cause of failure whilst the other waits by the machine. Some
signals will be exchanged and misunderstood and the operator starts to work his machine. The shot
unexpectedly goes off and an accident is the result. (See also 2, p. 120.)

Wm Maurice
The Shot-Firer's Guide: A Practical Manual on Blasting
and the Prevention of Blasting Accidents.
"The Electrician" Publishing Co. London nd ca 1910

bbartlog - 17-6-2011 at 11:43

Quote:

HE accidents are tied directly to experimenter's IQ. There are people on here who've worked and tested energetics for decades and never had an accident. Why? Because they are intelligent and they make intelligent choices.

You put too much weight on IQ and too little on personality traits - notably conscientiousness (which is just as valid a psychometric measure as IQ) but also simple willingness to take risks. Actually, now that I think about it, the main risk factor for HE accidents seems to be possession of a Y chromosome, despite the fact that this doesn't lower IQ in the slightest :-).

The WiZard is In - 17-6-2011 at 13:00

Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog

Yes. Safety is a frame of mind, and a disciplined way
of working.

Statistically the highest number of injuries from misadventure
are to adolescent males.

Tap-TAP-By-BY

Extracted from:—

Metal and Nonmetal Mine Safety and Health Fatal Accident Report, Explosives
and Breaking Agents, May 8, 1996
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
MINE SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION
Northeastern District
Metal and Nonmetal Mine Safety and Health

Accident Investigation Report
Surface Nonmetal Mine

Fatal Explosives Accident

Explo-Tech Incorporated
ID No. 36-02362-W21
at Miller Quarries
Division of Miller & Son Paving Incorporated
Rushland, Bucks County, Pennsylvania

May 8, 1996
Dennis A. Yesko, Supervisory Mine Safety and Health Inspector
Charles J. Weber, Mine Safety and Health Inspector
Special Investigator
and C. Okey Reitter, Jr., Supervisory Mine Safety and Health Inspector

Mine Safety and Health Administration
Northeastern District Office
230 Executive Drive, Suite 2
Cranberry Township, Pennsylvania 16066-6415

GENERAL INFORMATION
Gerald T. Little, truck driver/laborer, age 31, was fatally injured at
approximately 9:20 a.m. on May 8, 1996, when a non-electric down-hole primer
he was assembling detonated prematurely. Little was employed by Explo-Tech
Inc., an independent contractor that specialized in blasting. He had a total of 20
months mining experience as a truck driver/laborer with this contractor, 17
months of which included assisting the blaster in charge in assembling primers
and loading holes.

Little had last received annual refresher training on April 5, 1996, in
accordance with 30 CFR Part 48. This training addressed safe handling of the
various products utilized by Explo-Tech Inc., including protecting explosives from
impact.

PHYSICAL FACTORS
At the time of the accident, Little was assembling a non-electric down-hole
primer at the back of the explosives truck. The primer, which prematurely
detonated, consisted of either a Detaslide MS 450 or MS 500 delay detonator,
inserted into a 1-pound, [PETN /djh/] HDP-1 cast booster. The Detaslide
detonators contained a Remington .22 caliber rimfire casing held in an "L"
shaped plastic body. The MS 450 delays were manufactured on February 6,
1991, and the cast boosters were manufactured on April 1, 1996, both by Ensign-
Bickford. The MS 500 delays were manufactured on April 2, 1991, by Dupont.
Detaslide , Detaline detonating [shock cord /djh/] cord was used as the downline
initiation source for the detonators.

The manufacturer's product literature shipped with the detonators and cast
boosters instruct the user to fully insert the Detaslide detonator into the
capwell of the cast booster when assembling a primer. Also included was a
warning to never force or attempt to force a detonator into explosive material.
The rear of the 1978 Mack, R model explosives truck, V.I.N. R685T7216, was
provided with a bumper approximately 12 inches wide, extending the width of the
truck. This bumper served as a work platform for loading/unloading explosives,
and for assembling primers. It was constructed of a 2-by 10-inch oak board,
covered with a layer of -inch steel diamond plate, on top of which was a layer of -
inch aluminum diamond plate. One hole was blown through the left side of the
bumper. The opening measured approximately 10 inches through the aluminum
plate, and 5 inches in diameter through the steel plate and oak board.

Little was found approximately 10 feet from the rear of the truck. He had
sustained massive injures to the abdominal area of the body, and the upper
extremities. The pattern of damage to the bumper, and of the injuries to Little,
indicated that he was holding a primer with his left hand against the top, left side
of the bumper when it detonated.

On the rear of the explosives truck there were five bags of emulsifier, numerous
starters and surface delays, one damaged booster, and the remnants of several
boosters damaged in the explosion. Some other damaged explosive materials
were found approximately 75 feet from the truck. A wood handled steel knife,
used to cut the Detaline cord and slit bags of ammonium nitrate fuel oil (ANFO),
was found on the ground approximately 10 feet from the victim. A lead weight,
normally attached to a plastic measuring tape, used to measure the depth of the
boreholes, was also found on the ground near the rear of the truck. Many small
pieces of the measuring tape were found scattered about the scene.

The knife and lead weight were examined after the accident to determine if either
may have been used by Little to seat the detonator in the booster. The
preliminary results of the examination, however, were inconclusive. Two of Little's
co-workers stated that about 1 year prior to the accident, they had seen Little tap
on a detonator with a knife to seat it in a booster. At that time, both employees
said they had separately cautioned Little about this practice, and that Little had
told them he would not do it again. Neither employee had informed their
supervisor of Little's actions.

Examination of the detonators and cast boosters found at the accident site, and
at the contractor's explosive magazine, revealed that the detonators easily fit into
the capwell in all the boosters examined, with the exception of one booster
damaged by the explosion. Explo-Tech Inc. also provided additional Detaslide
detonators and HDP cast boosters for further examination and testing by MSHA.
Several of these MS 450 Detaslide detonators subsequently provided were found
to be slightly longer than the others examined. Sherman Hayes, sales manager,
and Ernest Leffler, blaster-in-charge, stated that about 9 years ago they had
experienced an instance where four cast boosters in one case had been
defective. The detonators could not be inserted because of malformed capwells
when the boosters were cast. The defective boosters were not used, and were
returned to the manufacturer.

MSHA also requested that the U.S. Department of Energy conduct testing of the
functional sensitivity of the detonators and boosters. Preliminary results of this
testing appear similar to tests conducted by the explosives manufacturer in 1985
and 1987, with the results indicating that the Detaslide detonators were not
unusually sensitive to impact.

There were no signs of lightning in the area at the time of the accident.

DESCRIPTION OF ACCIDENT
On the day of the accident, Gerald Little, victim, reported to work at
approximately 6:30 a.m., his normal starting time. He unloaded explosives from
the explosives truck until two of his co-workers and supervisor arrived. After
unloading the truck, Little assisted Ernest Leffler, blaster-in-charge, and H. Craig
Keck, blaster, in loading holes with primers and ANFO at the west end of the No.
5 production bench. Little then assisted Cliff Wood, truck driver, in repositioning
the dewatering truck on the bench, after which Little proceeded toward the rear of
the explosives truck.

At approximately 9:20 a.m., Leffler, Keck and Wood reported they heard an
explosion. Leffler said he looked up, saw a flash by the explosives truck, and
realized that a premature detonation had occurred. He ran around the driver's
side of the truck and found Little lying on the ground about 10 feet from the rear
of the truck. Little had sustained massive injuries and was killed instantly. Leffler
drove to the mine office where he reported the accident and 911 was called. A
local ambulance responded to the call. Little was pronounced dead at the scene
by the county deputy coroner.

CONCLUSION
Evidence indicated that the victim was assembling a primer, consisting of a
Detaslide detonator and an HDP-1 cast booster, on the rear bumper of the
explosives truck when it prematurely detonated. The detonation was apparently
caused when the primer assembly was subjected to impact. Co-workers stated,
that on two prior occasions, they had seen the victim tapping on a detonator with
a knife to seat it in a booster.

holmes1880 - 17-6-2011 at 14:18

Wizard, chill out on posting- I can't read essays in every reply. Can you make 1 paragraph summaries?

@BBarlog

Y chromosome is a small part of the mix. The common theme of people doing HE is they are white(White/Caucasian.......mostly Anglo-Saxon) and male. Similarities end there. From there it's up to individual intelligence and maturity. I pile intelligence and maturity into one broad category I call "IQ". There are various aspects that combine into overall intelligence. Kind of like the combination "clever" and "smart".

Btw, I've never seen women or black folks in amateur pyro. There must be discrimination! Hehe.

Steelvenom - 17-6-2011 at 14:41

It's good he posted this as said above for a lesson for other's like myself completely new "or even experienced" in this field to exercise nothing less than extreme caution with chemical's.

His wounds are childs play compared to what could of happened. I would post some examples from Afghanistan and Iraq but I don't think that would be appropriate nor professional and it could get me in trouble.

Lesson learned!

Thanks for the post aqua,
Sv

KemiRockarFett - 17-6-2011 at 16:26

Some mistakes that I have noticed people doing often:

1) Nitrating glycerine in a glass beaker their people stir the mixture with a glass thermometer. What happends when nitroglycerine is compressed between two hard surfaces? glass towards glass.. BAAAAM. A common mistake is to manufacture HE in such a way that hard surfaces can meet and set of an explosive. Place a HE on an anvil an hit it with an hammer and compare with the situation their the hammer is changed to a peace of wood. Think about that next time you produce HE in glass beakers and stir with a glass rod or mix with a stainless steel spoon.

2) Putty from HMTD and NC is reported on forums to get of by it self. I dont know if this is true. The reports talk about behavour compared to the compound that formes when ammonia acts on iodine.

3) Putting sulfur containing fuses in chlorates or peroxides. I am not sure of how peroxides acts with sulfur.

4) Using primarys as secondarys or uses a lot of primary to set of a secondary due to lazyness. ( They do not have energy to build a PRESS to manufacture a blasting cap. )

5) People does not care about static electricity when they manufactures their caps from drinking straws.

Dynamite truck

The WiZard is In - 18-6-2011 at 04:01

quicksilver - 18-6-2011 at 05:13

Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett

3) Putting sulfur containing fuses in chlorates or peroxides. I am not sure of how peroxides acts with sulfur.

4) Using primarys as secondarys or uses a lot of primary to set of a secondary due to lazyness. ( They do not have energy to build a PRESS to manufacture a blasting cap. )

5) People does not care about static electricity when they manufactures their caps from drinking straws.

Good stuff.
There had been some discussion about the "fuse issue" (sulfur & Chlorate) sometime back. Some people had even gone as far as coating the tips of the fuse with NC lacquer to minimize this potential.
Where it had originated is in some small pyrotechnic "plants" the common method of safety was the use of water to whett the compositions or paper wrapping prior to assembly.
IMO that was where the real problem existed. Very pure sulfur flour (dry) in minute amounts in negligible contact with a chlorate presents less of an issue - but when it is whetted the problem becomes quite serious. I am not comfortable with the combination in any amount but the water issue makes it a very serious concern. Some small workshop "plants" used water in their construction as a safest means and then dried the completed units. And here we can clearly see that even a small amount can suffice to form a problem. Dipping the end in NC lacquer might be an answer but without anything to stop the water from contacting the sulfur I would agree it's not a wise move what so ever. Color bleeding and plaster of Paris plugs are often an indication of the use of water in construction. This is NOT just an "exploding fireworks" problem but found in smokes (where chlorate existed frequently) & ground-oriented designs & fountains

The putty issue has often resulted in disaster. Many people don't realize that HMTD is a very sensitive material & putty invites manipulation.

Static is my personal "monster". It's SO insidious that it gets unnoticed or (worse) it becomes common place to receive a "tick" from shoes and carpeting. Every time that issue is perceived, it should be a real warning sign. IMO, one should not allow that to ever go unnoticed.

[Edited on 18-6-2011 by quicksilver]

KemiRockarFett - 18-6-2011 at 06:21

I will add two more points:

a) People lights acetone peroxides as gun cotton for the flasing effect and lives in the false reality that as long as its in the open air DDT will not happen. This is not true as stored acetone peroxide ( often darkens a bit from white to grey), probably water/acetone stucked to the crystals will evaporate with time. The totaly dryed peroxide will detonate in mg ammunts. So the hard fact is that its idioti to light up more when mg of HE if they are of primary kind or semipimary kind as ETN.

b) Many people falsely claims that WET ( under water) stored explovies are safe. This is 100 % wrong. A couple of % more security will be ashived by the wet storage as heat from friction could be distrubuted to the water instead of just locally affect the explosive. Peroxides of acetone and similar primarys should be stored solved in acetone/toluen or whatever. If crystals appear in the acetone solution of for exampe acetone peroxide over time you DONT have to be scared, these will not detonate by them self. Put in more acetone and they will go in solution. Or remove them, not by your hands !, and place them on a SOFT material as a paper and crush them with a LONG wodden tool. This will not initate them as falsely clamed by theori nerds at forums. Its not, what I have found, any reports of acetone peroxide with crystal structures making them candidates of auto ignition. Correct me if I am wrong!

People using peroxides anyhow and are using them as primarys WHY do they use more than 100 mg of them as primary ? WHY ? The answer is that they probably are LAZY and therfore ignores saftety. Check the tube for idiots making blasting caps containg grams av peroxides.

Peroxides do not use them. BUT if you use them use 100 mg at 250 kg/cm2 in a cap together with PETN at the same pressure. On top of the peroxide compress a non static initiable ignition compound that "secures" the peroxide. The ram that is uses to compress the PETN should have an spherical or similar end so that the primary is not in contact with the walls of the blasting cap, instead the primary will concentrate to the center of the top of the compressed PETN and become inbedded between the ignition mixture and PETN.

Mr. Wizard - 18-6-2011 at 07:03

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

Your mention of the Dynamite Truck reminded me of the 1977 movie Sorcerer, which is the nickname of the truck in the movie. The movie plot is about transporting old dynamite, and a man getting a chance to restart his life. If this doesn't make your hands sweat, they may have a job for you.

Sorcerer77poster-e1279970663412.jpg - 34kB

mabuse_ - 18-6-2011 at 07:32

Quote:

People using peroxides anyhow and are using them as primarys WHY do they use more than 100 mg of them as primary ? WHY ?

500mg HMTD should be OK, that's enough to set off most AN mixtures. Not recommendable though.
I believe that in most cases 100mg HMTD + P(ETN) caps are not safer than HMTD only ones.

Quote:

use them use 100 mg at 250 kg/cm2 in a cap together with PETN at the same pressure. On top of the peroxide compress a non static initiable ignition compound that "secures" the peroxide. The ram that is uses to compress the PETN should have an spherical or similar end so that the primary is not in contact with the walls of the blasting cap, instead the primary will concentrate to the center of the top of the compressed PETN and become inbedded between the ignition mixture and PETN.

You forgot the most important thing - a conductive and strong hull. A least not such a thing as a straw that can be bent or squeezed easily.
Otherwise that method probably wont help you very much, I bet PETN is not very conductive itself, it will barely act as faraday cage.

Bot0nist - 18-6-2011 at 08:01

For some reason, an accident thread seems to always yield a greater wealth of safe protocol tips than many of the other safety threads related to energetics.

KemiRockarFett, I really enjoyed your posts, as there was a lot of advice in then that I have never been exposed to in the past. I have never even thought twice about setting sulfur containing fuses in my large smoke makers(KClO<sub>3</sub> based). I doubt there is much intimate contact, but I wont continue. It isn't worth it to me because I often store them for many months.

I have played with some organic peroxides before as well, and have noticed that there is a great difference in effect in completely dry TCAP when ignited unconfined and damp TCAP. To get the full effect with even slightly damp TCAP, heat 5-10mg gently from below on foil. As soon as the hotplate starts to really heat, up the powder will first dry, then slightly melt, then there is foil crumbs everywhere.

I also found your tips on cap construction insightful. It doesn't get much talk around here for obvious reasons but I think it is a valid topic when the intention if safety. I am afraid I can't say that TCAP or even MEKP really have any place in an initiator, even if well protected an treated properly as you described. This just may be paranoia on my part though, as I'm sure a lot of people do it.

I also think the reason why some foolish people use multi-gram peroxide caps is because they don't have a sensitive booster like PETN to employ, and TCAP and the others are not that good at shooting an insensitive secondary. If these people have the intelligence and/or means to synthesize PETN, or even ETN, then they surly can, and should use a more suitable and less unpredictable primary then an organic peroxide.

[Edited on 18-6-2011 by Bot0nist]

Rosco Bodine - 18-6-2011 at 10:29

The amount of a primary required depends on the configuration and depends on the primary being used. It may require a few milligrams or it may require several grams. Making generalizations suggesting use of some arbitrary amount without regard for the configuration or what primary is being used is over simplifying.
Proven reliable firing trains are engineered and tested systems ....not guesses.

The WiZard is In - 18-6-2011 at 11:15

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

The amount of a primary required depends on the configuration and depends on the primary being used. It may require a few milligrams or it may require several grams. Making generalizations suggesting use of some arbitrary amount without regard for the configuration or what primary is being used is over simplifying.
Proven reliable firing trains are engineered and tested systems ....not guesses.

Yup. Me (The Analogue Guy) owns an origional copy
of this.... you can DL your copy from the usually place.

Accession Number : AD0029151
Title : ORDNANCE EXPLOSIVE TRAIN DESIGNERS' HANDBOOK
Corporate Author : NAVAL ORDNANCE LAB WHITE OAK MD
Handle / proxy Url : http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD029151
Report Date : APR 1952
Pagination or Media Count : 365
Descriptors : *EXPLOSIVE TRAINS, RELIABILITY, HANDBOOKS.
Subject Categories : AMMUNITION AND EXPLOSIVES
Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

djh
----
The explosion removed the windows,
the door and most of the chimney.
It was the sort of thing you expected in
the Street of Alchemists. The neighbours
preferred explosions, which were at least
identifiable and soon over. They were better
than the smells, which crept up on you.

Terry Pratchett

holmes1880 - 18-6-2011 at 12:02

Yes, the type of primary used as well as the density of the base charge. Commercial caps tend to have 300mg LA, which, I'm sure, has a built in safety factor, so it only requires probably 100mg.

Hey rosco, how much primary do you need for an electrical cap that uses ETN base charge? The answer: none.

[Edited on 18-6-2011 by holmes1880]

Rosco Bodine - 18-6-2011 at 12:31

The world will be a more tranquil place when the clueless get smart enough to chill out with the mellow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UTVUZ5SD1U

holmes1880 - 18-6-2011 at 12:35

Indeed. You should listen to it more often, Dave.
And for those of us who still work with HE, unlike some feeble souls, man up and listen to some real music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlsxaY6GIVo

I bet if TS listened to this, he'd pull out the glass shards out of himself like a real man, take a shot of Jack Daniel's, then say "f**k it" and go back to casting ETN. :cool:

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]

holmes1880 - 19-6-2011 at 01:00

Going back to the accident, I think I know where aquaregia got the stupid idea to melt ETN in a bunsen burner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwhF_TKReSA&feature=playe...

The TACN sensitivity thread had this vdeo there, which was on Jor's old, forgotten website.

Ta-da-da-da-da-da-da ta dam tam-tam ta dam tam-tam tadam tam-tam tadadadadadadaa.....ta dam tam tam

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]

Jimbo Jones - 19-6-2011 at 02:08

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

Going back to the accident, I think I know where aquaregia got the stupid idea to melt ETN in a bunsen burner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwhF_TKReSA&feature=playe...

The TACN sensitivity thread had this vdeo there, which was on Jor's old, forgotten website.

Ta-da-da-da-da-da-da ta dam tam-tam ta dam tam-tam tadam tam-tam tadadadadadadaa.....ta dam tam tam

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]

Well, Mr. Holmes 1880 now you really convinced me that you are so smart and skillful that you are fully impregnated from such a STUPID mistakes. Keep the good work and don’t stop to contribute more and more useful information.

Rosco Bodine - 19-6-2011 at 03:04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qssmeIXTfUU Juliana and Llewellyn - Guardian Angel

Guardian Angel

Be still for a while
Come into my light my sweet child
I can rescue you
I've always been with you
Believe in me
You're looking at your Guardian Angel
Looking at your Guardian Angel

Breathe in Love with every breath
Michael's by your side with Gabriel's strength
Uriel is here
His clarity is crystal clear
Raphael will heal
Now call out to your Guardian Angel
Call out to your Guardian Angel

Be still for a while
Come into my light my sweet child
I can rescue you
I've always been with you
Believe in me
You're looking at your Guardian Angel
Looking at your Guardian Angel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5--RjADLY Llewellyn - Take Me Home

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS_efeKbbwI Spreading Wings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ5prC9CUW4 Don't Miss The Boat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyOm3grpsSc Follow The Shepherd Home

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDUbq3iAocg How Deep The Father's Love For Us

Happy Father's Day

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Tid-bits

The WiZard is In - 19-6-2011 at 05:21

holmes1880 - 19-6-2011 at 09:55

Rosco has went full-troll autopilot. Those songs would actually be somewhat pleasant if they weren't filled with crap about a BS story that was meant to control the masses. It's truly bewildering how weak and stupid people that surround us are. Sometimes I feel like a wolf locked in sheep barn.

@Jimbo

Word you're looking for is "impervious" not "impregnated". I really am impervious to accidents because I reduced my tests from 3-4 a day to maybe 1-2 every other month and I don't really make more than 2-3g ETN at a time. I am also the only person on here to successfully implement Dinegar's study on secondary blasting caps. I've just made some necessary modifications. Rosco can't seem to stomach that he himself couldn't do it. :cool:

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]

gnitseretni - 19-6-2011 at 10:55

Have you tested that wooden block yet?

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

I use a wooden block 2X4 about 3'' long to press ETN caps in thin aluminum. If for some reason it goes bang, the wood should catch most of the aluminum and the 3 layers of tape prevent wood from going at very high velocities in a small splinters. My fingers would be 1'' away from the block and I expect to have no permanent injuries at that distance. Caps range between 0.5-1g.

Rosco Bodine - 19-6-2011 at 11:05

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

Rosco has went full-troll autopilot. Those songs would actually be somewhat pleasant if they weren't filled with crap about a BS story that was meant to control the masses. It's truly bewildering how weak and stupid people that surround us are. Sometimes I feel like a wolf locked in sheep barn.

Speaking of pilots, I have known several combat pilots who are Christians and they certainly are not weak or stupid people. One of them was a very quiet man who used to fly a Dauntless dive bomber. One day he flew a mission against a Japanese ship and killed more than a thousand men when
he sunk their ship.

holmes1880 - 19-6-2011 at 11:26

Quote: Originally posted by gnitseretni

Have you tested that wooden block yet?

Haven't had the time to go out to the woods. I did acquire a 6X6 block of wood drilled through the middle to fit the cap. I think I will run a rope around it in a few layers- that would prevent any big chunks flying off at me or catch any shrapnel that gets through. On top of rope would go gorilla tape.

I would set it up more remotely, had I been using a sensitive primary. The chance of accident while pressing ETN is miniscule at best.

Speaking of nitric esters, Sorcerer 1977 is really good movie.
Uploaded to YT : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV43AXhoCDk&feature=fvwre...

aquaregia - 19-6-2011 at 12:49

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

I bet if TS listened to this, he'd pull out the glass shards out of himself like a real man, take a shot of Jack Daniel's, then say "f**k it" and go back to casting ETN. :cool:

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]

Sherlock, for some reason, the more I read your posts, the more upset I get. I guess I should not since, it is bad practice to react to trolls. Anyhow, some posters here reacted in the proper way saying "hey, I guess I should be more careful with that stuff", which make this thread really worthwhile. But you my friend, with that attitude of yours, are the prototype of the next guy to take glass shards out of yourself drinking Jack Daniels. When that happens, please do not forget to let us know, because I sincerely think it will. You'll be alot less than a "real man" then, because you'll see how much it hurts. That's assuming you got eyes left that is. I really think your cavalier attitude toward HE's really sets a bad example for young ones coming here. For that reason, I really hope they are alot smarter than you. While I do not like Jack Daniels, I do enjoy Single Malts very much; but, when you're full of glass shards, the last thing on your mind will be to have a drink. Anyhow having a drink is ill advise before a general anesthetic. The news papers, obituary section are full of people like you. The sadest part I guess, is that you'll never learn...

holmes1880 - 19-6-2011 at 14:38

Song is called "Padre's Wood" off the soundtrack.100% pure bad*ss music, that's the point. Nobody expects you to become hardcore movie-type superhero. You're just not too acquaint with American-style humor...

Look at you, hoping I injure myself. It's only your pipe dream. I don't boil nitric esters in a glass tube after casting it. I also wear eye protection. You think you're warning people? There is a public page of HMTD accident where someone blew off a fingers cutting HMTD straw. It's been up 3 months in Google search. 2 weeks ago a kid posted on there saying he blew off a finger that week cutting an HMTD straw with scissors. Identical accident. And you'd think there was a clear warning...

Everything becomes dangerous when you throw a retard into the mix. Amen to that.

freedompyro - 19-6-2011 at 18:23

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

You think you're warning people? There is a public page of HMTD accident where someone blew off a fingers cutting HMTD straw. It's been up 3 months in Google search. 2 weeks ago a kid posted on there saying he blew off a finger that week cutting an HMTD straw with scissors. Identical accident. And you'd think there was a clear warning...

Everything becomes dangerous when you throw a retard into the mix. Amen to that.

I can't really see ever having an accident. It's always the lazy people that get injured. Also... I never synthesis anything that hasn't already been fully researched.

People who don't fully clean their glassware... (I keep mine crystal clean with ethanol/acetone.) People that get their fingers closer than two inches to a detonator in construction... People who don't fully deacidify and test with PH strips...

Honestly... The average person doesn't even remember when I tell them to put the fuse on the OUTSIDE of the bag when getting rid of some HMTD... Sheesh...

I still use HMTD, and even compact upto 0.5g of it with the blow of a heavy hammer. It's completely safe because between me and it is two inches of thick plywood and a one foot airspace. The compaction is done via a one and a half foot wood rod. If it dets it's no problem... I even wear earmuffs because I half expect it to because I'm trying to achieve the maximum compression possible without a hydraulic press. I even keep myself out of the path the wood rod would take should it not splinter and instead decide to launch itself skyward...

Always make sure that the worst case scenario is not a bad scenario at all.

Don't argue with them Holmes... Waste of typing...

[Edited on 20-6-2011 by freedompyro]

holmes1880 - 19-6-2011 at 21:27

I do not have half of your audacity, freedom. Good thing to be armored up for pressing HMTD and do it outside....cause that devil powder can't tolerate even minor friction. What is the capsule made of?

freedompyro - 19-6-2011 at 22:27

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

I do not have half of your audacity, freedom. Good thing to be armored up for pressing HMTD and do it outside....cause that devil powder can't tolerate even minor friction. What is the capsule made of?

I encase the HMTD in plastic (Think grocery bag plastic.) and just use a casing with like 10 layers of treated paper. The end is sealed with only a few layers of aluminum tape beforehand. This is to give it better contact with the secondary.

Honestly... I literally end up splitting the hardwood dowel and have not gotten it to det yet.

This is with 0.3-0.4g amounts.

[Edited on 20-6-2011 by freedompyro]

Jimbo Jones - 19-6-2011 at 22:33

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

@Jimbo

Word you're looking for is "impervious" not "impregnated". I really am impervious to accidents because I reduced my tests from 3-4 a day to maybe 1-2 every other month and I don't really make more than 2-3g ETN at a time. I am also the only person on here to successfully implement Dinegar's study on secondary blasting caps. I've just made some necessary modifications. Rosco can't seem to stomach that he himself couldn't do it. :cool:

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]

I think the correct word is irony, but yeah ……who am I to teach an impervious to accidents human being. It's good thing to shrink your ego a little bit, because the bad things happen when you least expect them. The post from Aquaregia did save some fingers and eyes, just because he was generous enough to share his accident. Look in your favorite YTube. Almost every genius out there melted or burned nitric esters to impress the audience. Did you get the message?

If I remember correctly you asked something about “Nitromethane Sensitizers and Det Cord”……Yes, I do have some experience with PLX, but now….. I’m feeling so stupid that I completely forgot the exact formulation….Stupid, stupid me……

[Edited on 20-6-2011 by Jimbo Jones]

holmes1880 - 19-6-2011 at 23:43

I do hardly doubt anything was saved by anyone. Folks who cast ETN in an unsafe manner also work with primaries, which are far more treacherous and are #1 cause of all accidents. In fact, acquaregia is the only person who managed to work up an ETN accident....and I've heard of a quite a few accidents.

Don't try to be a wise guy, you have nothing to offer. I've tested various cords about 2 weeks ago and I don't care much for PLX as it's useless in nylon tubing in small diameters. Fine ammonal powder has shown to be a more effective det-cord material.. I just don't care for its cost or time it takes to make it.

holmes1880 - 19-6-2011 at 23:52

@freedom

I am surprised HMTD can take that kind of abuse. I suppose if you eliminate friction and rough spots on the cap, it is plausible, though like you said, expect it to go off. I'd still get nervous as hell, even if I was safe from injuries.

aquaregia - 20-6-2011 at 00:56

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

Look at you, hoping I injure myself.

Everything becomes dangerous when you throw a retard into the mix. Amen to that.

Jesus, Sherlock, you must really be thick are you? You are right, I did launched this thread wishing for people like you to get injured... I guess it is quite clear to everybody here ;apart from you that is; that I did so in order to, maybe ,prevent someone, somewhere from GETTING INJURED. I should think I did my bit (or tried to), so I'll leave now. And NO, I do not wish for you, or anybody to get injured, regardless of how cocky or pedantical you can be. All I tried to say is that you have the proper "know it all" attitude for something to happen to you. Calling me a retard won't change that. You think yourself smart, but reading your posts, all can see who the retard is here (I also think they tried to tell you but you won't listen).
So, be safe holmes.

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

@Jimbo

Word you're looking for is "impervious" not "impregnated". I really am impervious to accidents because I reduced my tests from 3-4 a day to maybe 1-2 every other month

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]

@quicksilver:
would this need moderation?
@Holmes: "3-4 times a day" YOU REALLY ARE OUR HERO! I do hope you do get a job though

... But, while very entertaining you're probably not old enough judging from your maturity

.
bye, and thanks everyone.

[Edited on 20-6-2011 by aquaregia]

[Perhaps] The world is better off without it.

The WiZard is In - 20-6-2011 at 06:15

[Edited on 20-6-2011 by The WiZard is In]

Rosco Bodine - 20-6-2011 at 09:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY4Z76JTVwI A Hundred Thousand Angels

If sooner or later we shall all have opportunity to meet them and count them .....
the point should not be lost that the quality of our choices in life may determine whether that opportunity arises sooner .....or later. No one should be surprised by this.

Bot0nist - 20-6-2011 at 09:42

Jesus, won't this thread die already. Some good tidbits and a whole lotta irrelevant B.S. to sift through.

holmes1880 - 20-6-2011 at 10:07

This thread should have been locked 3-4 pages ago. The only thing that has come from it is the

1. acquaregia's renewed sense of righteousness for being a genius who roasted ETN in a glass tube
2. rosco's trolling via religious YouTube links
3. wizard posting pretty funny comic book excerpts along with Encyclopedia Britannica
4. jimbo jones' failed effort at slighting me with his perceived knowledge of PLX
5. my trolling as response to rosco's religious trolling

And all of this pales to utter insignificance in light of the fact that electric blasting caps that I use require no primary.

franklyn - 20-6-2011 at 10:36

I can sympathize with aquaregia, this thread reminds me of when I was a kid and
got beat up in school by bully's, then after I would get beat up for it by my dad.

_ and on the religious theme, to all the Mary Poppins posters ( practically perfect
in every way ), " let he who is without sin cast the first stone ".

.

freedompyro - 20-6-2011 at 11:16

Yes... This thread should be locked... Completely pointless! Everyone is going in circles at this point.

[Edited on 20-6-2011 by freedompyro]

quicksilver - 21-6-2011 at 06:00

Perhaps instead of locking the thread; individuals should be a bit more introspective as to what they post.....? - Just a thought.
Perhaps that's not possible.

holmes1880 - 21-6-2011 at 07:20

Lock it before Rosco becomes more religiously introspective on here.

Rosco Bodine - 21-6-2011 at 12:26

Here is the ultimate introspective philosophical and pragmatic question .....

When a human being recognizes that there is a god sized hole in their understanding and in their life, upon whom alone should they call to answer
that need, but the only one who can answer?

holmes1880 - 21-6-2011 at 12:59

Roscotoich, you are a crazy Russky. Ex-commie?

[Edited on 21-6-2011 by holmes1880]

IndependentBoffin - 21-6-2011 at 13:13

Rosco is onto something. Pay attention, my friend....is there anything we really own?

Intelligence can be lost with a knock to the head.

Physical prowess can be lost in a car accident, rendering one quadriplegic.

Wealth can be lost in a Madoff scam.

Friends/family can be lost by age or illness.

When you realise that everything you have can be lost, and indeed will be lost one day, you do realise that there is a gaping God-sized hole in your existence.

If you can relinquish your worldly idols (image, money, power, etc.) and control your fears by realising you really have nothing to lose, you are truly a free man.

In the end we own nothing except what God gives by grace to us. If you want to find God...find one who loves us enough to die for us. All other gods are counterfeit and will turn you into a slave rather than a free man.

Quote:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11

The WiZard is In - 21-6-2011 at 13:30

Quote: Originally posted by IndependentBoffin

Rosco is onto something. Pay attention, my friend....is there anything we really own?

[snip]

My philosophy dobe —

If you are going to play the game you have to know
three things.

2- What are the rules. Can't play if you don't know the rules.
3- What can you win? If the prize isn't big enough - why bother.
1- What can you loose?!

Ever try strangling the chicken - buttoning your shirt
with you non-dominant hand, &c., &c.?

I would without being ad hominem note that I find
the attitude toward safety by some here "juvenile" at best.

djh
----
In nature there are neither
rewards nor punishments;
there are consequences.

Robert Green Ingersoll

IndependentBoffin - 21-6-2011 at 13:40

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In

My philosophy dobe —

If you are going to play the game you have to know
three things.

2- What are the rules. Can't play if you don't know the rules.

Love God above all else. Love your neighbour as yourself.

Quote:

3- What can you win? If the prize isn't big enough - why bother.

An eternal inheritance.

Quote:

1- What can you loose?!

An eternally bad neighbourhood.

Quote:

Ever try strangling the chicken - buttoning your shirt with you non-dominant hand, &c., &c.?

All the time. I'm ambidextrous

.

Write with l/h, play sports and use mice with r/h. Can swap around but have different styles. E.g. my R/h sabre duelling is fast, powerful and aggressive. L/h is defensive but more precise.

Quote:

I would without being ad hominem note that I find
the attitude toward safety by some here "juvenile" at best.

A pediatrician once told me children are incapable of thinking through the consequences of their actions. When exactly they starting putting forethought into their actions varies from individual to individual....indeed it is possible to see adults who are incapable of assessing risk.

[Edited on 21-6-2011 by IndependentBoffin]

holmes1880 - 21-6-2011 at 13:47

If you were to read the last 4 pages of this thread, you wouldn't know what the thread was originally about.

Lockdown. Seriously.

watson.fawkes - 21-6-2011 at 21:45

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

If you were to read the last 4 pages of this thread, you wouldn't know what the thread was originally about.

Lockdown. Seriously.

I think perhaps a better plan is for those who care about removal of off-topic replies to set an example by their silence about all but the topic at hand.

watson.fawkes - 23-6-2011 at 14:01

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880

Shut it, Watson.

Hypocrisy does not flatter you. Neither does posting in anger.

Polverone - 23-6-2011 at 15:23

holmes1880, no more posting in this thread. I count 5 off-topic messages from you on the last page alone. Also -- since it seems to have slipped in -- no more off-topic posting from anyone about religious beliefs, how bad this thread is, or anything really other than chemistry and safety.

A reminder for people who thought this thread needed intervention earlier: posting "this thread should be closed" in the thread does not actually summon moderators. Sending a U2U message to a moderator does! Only one person bothered to send me a U2U about the state of this thread.

jon - 7-7-2011 at 06:27

same sort of thing happened to me once i was barred out on xanax doing a high pressure rxn and boom! bleeding out like a stuck pig.
teach me to do high pressure reactions on xanax.
the emt's were asking all kinds of questions and i was giving evasive answers.
i did'nt get jammed up, came real close.
that notion of being clear minded is very important.

on a related note semtex is an intersting explosive.
the mosad used it against a member of hizbollah by placing a charge in his cellphone and detonating it as soon as he answered the phone.
the result?
his head was blown in half and his fingers wound up as shrapnel in the remander of his gourd.
astonishing what a petn plastic explosive can do in such small amounts.

[Edited on 7-7-2011 by jon]

[Edited on 7-7-2011 by jon]

AndersHoveland - 7-7-2011 at 18:06

Quote: Originally posted by jon

the mosad used semtex against a member of hizbollah by placing a charge in his cellphone and detonating it as soon as he answered the phone.
the result? his head was blown in half...

Such a big deal is made in the American media about muslim terrorists, while the dirty tactics used by Israel go unmentioned. The Israeli government routinely assassinates people in other middle eastern countries they do not like. :mad:

But back to the topic, supposedly nitrate esters, such as ETN, become more sensitive over time (or in direct sunlight) as traces of nitrogen dioxide develop, with the liquid developing a yellowish tinge. Another thing to consider is that if a plastic container containing ETN falls over, it is likely to agitate the liquid enough to mix it with air and form microbubbles that can severely sensitize the compound.

jon - 7-7-2011 at 19:28

they all use terrorist tacticts.
isreal is the baddest terrorist behind the u.s.
i'm not siding with the isreali's, oh no.

this is what 6 grams of etn can do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs6sYCQoOJg

[Edited on 8-7-2011 by jon]

don't feel so bad look at this stupid motherfucker recrystalizing etn over an open flame with methanol.
GENIUS!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEYtr1tU66E&NR=1&feat...

[Edited on 8-7-2011 by jon]

this is what a gram can do inside a cellphone against a steel plate.
all i was illustrating is th clever assasination technique of swithching cellphones out loaded with petn/cemtex.
it litterally blows the fingers off and they logde as shrapnel in the skull, it's quite an impresive thing.
enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzPo115Lyto&feature=relat...

[Edited on 8-7-2011 by jon]

holmes1880 - 8-7-2011 at 01:38

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland

ETN under water/isopropyl is about as sensitive as water. Whatever the storage method, with proper deacidification and recrystallization, product will stay white for months, kept in a dark cool place.

holmes1880 - 9-7-2011 at 21:11

I took everyone's advice and got rid of all my ETN. I did that by making 1g non-primary electric detonator, than took my 13g of ETN designated for blasting caps and mixed that with 7g Vaseline and then nicely KABOOMED it 5 feet underwater. Probably should have done it on 4th of July in the open, but everyone has 20/20 hindsight.

65/35 ETN is still sensitive to #8 blasting cap. It's a k3wl C4, if you may.

caterpillar - 8-1-2012 at 05:49

Once I was at nearly killed by myself. Looking back (it was many years ago) I cannot understand how one may by so stupid. It was a small charge (200 gr AN + nitronaphtalene) . I made a hole in that charge and put mercury fulminate into it (it was the monent when my live was hanging by a thread- I made no separated blusting cap, but used powdered primary explosive instead). Finally I put above paper with salpeter and ignited it. Problem was, of course, caused by sparkles, flying in any directions from burning paper. I was one meter from my charge, when it exploded. I didn't loose my mind and remember flying grass (actually it was me, who flyed above it) I felt no pain and was able to get to home with my byke. At that evening I was in hospital. I did not know why, but I hardly was able to walk for few days after this acident.

Adas - 8-1-2012 at 06:00

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar

I did not know why, but I hardly was able to walk for few days after this acident.

This was probably caused by extreme stress levels you were exposed to.

Pulverulescent - 8-1-2012 at 06:33

Quote:

I did not know why, but I hardly was able to walk for few days after this acident.

This was probably caused by extreme stress levels you were exposed to.

Well, the effects of blast on human tissue . . .

P

Bot0nist - 8-1-2012 at 19:31

Five one liners in five different threads. Working on your post count? Little post-whorish, don't you think?

Quote:

Don't ever let somebody tell you can't do something. You got a dream, you gotta protect it!

When we step on the battlefield, I will be The First Boots On and the Last Boots Off.

Whatever is worth doing is worth doing well.

When we step on the battlefield, I will be The First Boots On and the Last Boots Off.

Don't ever let somebody tell you can't do something. You got a dream, you gotta protect it!

~Lenting, in five different threads.

caterpillar - 8-1-2012 at 20:24

I think, my inability to walk was cased by loss of some blood. At the night (5-7 ours after explosion) I was able to reach toilet, but with difficulty. next day I urinated into (I do not know this english word, in russian it is called "duck"). When I started to walk, I had twice to stop when I was going up to my second floor where my bed was. But I discovered, that such sort of death is absolutely painless. The first thing what I did when I had returned back from hospital was the next few grams of mercury fulminate. I cannot tell to you nor to myself, what it was? Stupidity or stabborness? Or something else? Later I replaced this primer with acetone peroxide. No toxic metalls, wery simple route to this compound. But after some years I leaved wonderful world of hi explosives. Now I'm a programmer and use another methods to get my dope of adrenaline (mountains and paragliding).

johansen - 9-1-2012 at 00:39

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar

I was one meter from my charge, when it exploded. I didn't loose my mind and remember flying grass (actually it was me, who flyed above it) I felt no pain and was able to get to home with my byke. At that evening I was in hospital. I did not know why, but I hardly was able to walk for few days after this acident.

Had the charge been a bit bigger, you would not have been able to move after you woke up. They probably had you on drugs in the hospital. I'm not sure if its the chemicals the body releases or something else, but what you experienced is not uncommon, though it differs in magnitude, and how much pain you feel afterward.

caterpillar - 9-1-2012 at 02:55

You think too good about our hospital. I got no painkillers at all. Thay only bandage me. There was another reason that I was so weak for few days. I put charge into thin tin from under pea. One of my friends, who was in Aphanistan, told me that an ordinary hand grenade hardly can kill a man. Only one with thick body that produces heavy splinters.

franklyn - 1-12-2012 at 00:54

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=22554

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15150&...

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15150&...

.

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