Sciencemadness Discussion Board

I found a very interesting explosive,but.....

ZHANGNIUBI - 16-6-2011 at 16:03

Hello, my friends. i may need you guys help this time.
I dont know if you guys have heard of these kind of compound--Bis[3-(5-nitroimino-1,2,4-triazolate)]-Based Energetic Salts. My friend in China is trying to synthesize some. But failed..
oh,what we are trying to make is NO.12 compound,which the article shows that it is very insensitive(impact :38J) and energetic(VOD=9399m/s), and also it has a very high density(1.95g/cm^3), we believe NO,12 is perfect, but we are not sure if the data shows correct imformation..can somebody give us some tips about that?
What's more, we dont have detail information about synthesis. could any body share some?

and, may ask a question about how to get cheap reagent?
I ve been in America for 4 month, I find some dealers in my city,but I really cant afford any reagent....e.x,a 500ml HCL can be more than 30dollars...which, in my country, can be very cheap as about 2dollars..how do you guys get cheap reagent?


Thank you very much...




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[Edited on 17-6-2011 by ZHANGNIUBI]

AndersHoveland - 16-6-2011 at 16:41

O2NN=[CN3H2C]--[CN3H2C]=NNO2, where the [CN3H2C] are 1,2,4-triazole rings

My first thoughts about this compound is that it has too many carbon atoms, but yes, nitrimino azoles of this sort are surprisingly not very sensitive, as the NH group in the ring is electron donating to the nitrimino group, =NNO2.

Not really sure, but I think refluxing oxalic acid, ammonium formate, and hydrazine hydrate together might form bis[3-(1,2,4-triazole)]
A simple nitration, preferably with Cu(NO3)2 and acetic anhydride (nitric acid not being used), would form bis[3-(5-nitro-1,2,4-triazole)], not exactly the compound you referred to, but it should be even less sensitive, and still capable of forming energetic salts.

You might see another, somewhat related, idea I had:
https://sites.google.com/site/ecpreparation/oxidizing-antz
It would probably be even more powerful, and not much more sensitive.

[Edited on 17-6-2011 by AndersHoveland]

ZHANGNIUBI - 16-6-2011 at 16:51

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
My first thoughts about this compound is that it does not have the best oxygen balance, but yes, nitrimino azoles of this sort are surprisingly not very sensitive, as the NH group in the ring is electron donating to the nitrimino group, =NNO2.

Not really sure, but I think refluxing oxalic acid, ammonium formate, and hydrazine hydrate together might form bis[3-(1,2,4-triazole)]
A simple nitration, preferably with Cu(NO3)2 and acetic anhydride (nitric acid not being used), would form bis[3-(5-nitro-1,2,4-triazole)], not exactly the compound you referred to, but it should be even less sensitive, and still capable of forming energetic salts.


[Edited on 17-6-2011 by AndersHoveland]


yes，you are right, our way is to reflux oxalic acid and
amino guanidine,but the TLC data shows that we may failed to get what we want...
we do need more detailed information for this reaction. we want to see if NO12 is that perfect...

and i would say oxygen balance is just a way to see if an explosive is energetic. but relatively, density and N% may have much more influence on the performence of an explosive..
HC(NO2)3and its derivant, for example, usually have perfect or good oxygen balance, but they are not really powerful as people expect,..
I think bis-triazole maybe that good for its high density and N%.
and that why I d like to have a try..
[Edited on 17-6-2011 by ZHANGNIUBI]

[Edited on 17-6-2011 by ZHANGNIUBI]

hissingnoise - 17-6-2011 at 00:10

Quote:
I ve been in America for 4 month, I find some dealers in my city,but I really cant afford any reagent....

Yeah, finding a dealer would be my top priority, too . . .


bbartlog - 17-6-2011 at 04:32

Quote:
how do you guys get cheap reagent?


Hardware stores and other places. Take a look at the 'Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition' subforum, there is a dedicated thread. As regards HCl specifically, it is sold by the gallon in 31% concentration (as Muriatic Acid) at both Lowe's and Home Depot in the US... probably at other hardware stores too. I forget how much a gallon costs but it's quite cheap. I haven't had any problems with purity using it but if that's a concern you could always distill it.

Bot0nist - 17-6-2011 at 07:41

You distill HCl(aq)? I always just evolve the HCl gas and re-dissolve in dH<sub>2</sub>O

bbartlog - 17-6-2011 at 11:34

I don't, actually (or I haven't) - but pushing it through a fractionating column would be a good way both of eliminating any metal ions (FeCl2 contamination or whatever) and rendering it to a known concentration (the azeotrope). Actually evolving the HCl as gas would also work, but would require additional reagents.

chemfrk - 20-6-2011 at 08:06

can we get ammonium formate in india?

AndersHoveland - 23-6-2011 at 16:28

What about reacting reacting sodium 5-aminotetrazolate with acetone in excess base to form the imine (protecting the amino group)...
(CH3)2C=N--(CN5)[-]
then reacting this with 3-nitro,5-iodo-1,2,4-triazole?
Then dilute in water, the sodium iodide byproduct can be extracted out with acetone, whereas the energetic compound, assuming it is in the intermediate form of the sodium salt, will not be soluble in the acetone.
NH2--{CN5}--{CN3HC}--NO2 should form. Then simply perform a nitration to turn the amino group into a nitrimino group.
O2NN={CN5H}--{CN3HC}--NO2