I prepared a small amount of nitrated sucrose recently. The procedure that I followed was:
1) Place 250mL beaker in ice/salt bath.
2) Pour 20mL of concentrated nitric acid into beaker.
3) Slowly add 40mL of concentrated sulfuric acid, making sure the temperature of the contents of the beaker does not rise about 20 degrees Celcius.
4) Wait for temperature to fall to 10 degrees Celcius.
5) Slowly add 14g of C12H22O11 (sucrose) to the mixed acids, making sure the temperature does not rise about 20 degrees Celcius.
6) Stir gently for several minutes. The sucrose will slowly form a gelatinous mass, usually attaching to the stirring rod.
7) I then left it in the ice bath to nitrate overnight.
Filter out the mixture from the beaker, running water through the contents of the filter to reduce the acidity.
9) Take the filtered nitrated sucrose and place it in another beaker. Add several grams of NaHCO3 (baking soda). Add around 40ml of water. Stir and
poke the nitrated sucrose until the mixture is no longer bubbling.
10) Pour off the remaining water. Rinse the nitrated sucrose until it is neutral.
11) Let water evaporate off.
I believe runaway nitration temperature is about 40 degrees Celcius, due to a disaster that occurred two days ago when I was distracted by a parental
figure for a short while, immediately after I had removed the beaker from the ice bath for a few moments to raise the temperature... I then forgot
about that. When I went back outside to check on it later, I found a black mass in the beaker, acid splattered everywhere, and my good mercury
thermometer had been broken and ejected from the beaker. By the way, I was able to salvage the mercury, which remained in the mixed acid so all I had
to do was rinse out the beaker until the pH was about 7, pour off the water, and dump the mercury into a tiny glass container.madscientist - 20-5-2002 at 19:32
Nitrated sucrose is very annoying to dry; it takes days to get the water content down to a reasonable level. It is not sensitive enough to be a
primary explosive (does not explode when heated by flame) but it does burn far faster than nitrostarch. When burned, it releases the faint odor of
nitrogen oxides. It burns fairly quickly, and leaves little to no residue. Soon I will carry out sensitivity tests.PHILOU Zrealone - 20-5-2002 at 19:37
Madscientist forgot also to say what was the concentration of the acids...concentrated means everything and nothing in chemistry!
Anyway:
Assuming that you meant over 90% HNO3 and 98% H2SO4;
Suggar is C6H12O6
CH2OH-CHOH-CHOH-CHOH-CHOH-CH=O or an aldohexose.
Reaction with HNO3 leads to oxydation product of the aldehyd part into gluconic acid and other inerchain oxydation products.
Reduction of the aldehyd part leads to an hexaalcool = sorbitol or manitol....
When conc HNO3 is used in the cold, you get a moderate yield of pentanitric ester; excess HNO3 is needed and this causes a lot of oxydative
degradation --> risks of runaway since oxydation is always exothermic.
Conc H2SO4 dehydrates suggar into C black and also lower the yield if ever used to increase HNO3 power and absorbs water.
The best way to go good yields is thus cold and excess 100% HNO3 and very little 98% H2SO4!
From Rudolph-Meyer's Explosives, 4th edition:
During the first WW, cane sugar was processed to get nitrosuggar or (pentanitrogluconic acid).
In its pure form, it is too unstable to be used in practice; a liquid explosive called "nitrohydren" was prepared by conitration of cane sugar
solutions in glycerol and processed into gunpowders.However those mixtures were much more difficult to stabilise than NG alone and are no longer of
interest.
Power must be right in the middle of Nitroglycerin (propanetriol trinitrate)/Hexanitromanite (manitol hexanitrate/ hexanehexol hexanitrate):
*VOD between 7600 and 8200m/s
*lead block test between 520 and 510 ccm/10g
*impact sensitivity between 0,2Nm and 0,8Nm
might be lower than 0,2 since they mention it to be hard to stabilise unless they mean storage lifetime stabilisation!
If nitrate ester are below the critical mass, they simply burn! Hammer impact test on 1mg sample is the way to feel its power or wrap a little of it
in Al foil prior to heating, keep a safe distance, goggles, gloves and labcoat!
PH ZNils - 10-7-2002 at 09:04
there are many other sugars you can nitrate, like Sorbitol and Mannitol.
i have expirience with SorbitolHexanitrate, very good explosive with a quiet good brisance(for a nitrated sugar). When i have acces to mannitol i will
try to make Mannitolhexanitrate, wich should be very good like i've heard.
??
raistlin - 13-7-2002 at 16:21
Would it be usable as a primer to a larger explosive?
RaistlinPHILOU Zrealone - 8-9-2002 at 11:59
Yes of course! If fully nitrated it is equivalent to solid/frozen NG and a little less than HNM (so better than PETN but more sensitive too).The only
problem is to know if it is well nitrated or not...you can have a mix of 5 mononitrates esters+ 10 dinitrate esters+ 10 trinitrate ester + 5
tetranitrate esters and 1 pentanitrate ester...owing to the high probability of uncomplete nitration in non water free excess HNO3; the resulting
product might be hard to cristallise (owing to the mix of various molecules), hygroscopic (due to free OH unnitrated).
This not counting with the inner oxydation possible products of OH groups (cetons, aldehydes, carboacids).
For infomationnal purpose, and for the ones that like the things to be clear and correct on the chemical level (like me )
Suggars are defined to be aldo and ceto pentose/hexoses; sorbitol and manitol even if they are sweeteners derived from the reduction of some suggars
can be called suggars; they are polyols!
Sorbitol and mannitol are hexols and doesn't contain any aldehydic group (aldose) nor cetonic group (cetose)!
PH Z PHILOU Zrealone - 8-9-2002 at 12:01
By "can be called suggars" I meant CAN'T BE CALLED SUGGARS...andreas - 22-9-2002 at 08:28
Has someone tried nitro-fructose and what are it's properties as aposed to nitro-mannite
powerful primary explosive
Lynard - 12-10-2002 at 04:12
Can somebody tell me, if it possible convert
trideuteroacetonitrile (C2D3N)
into a powerful liquid-explosive ?
What the fuck?
Nick F - 12-10-2002 at 04:20
That has nothing to do with nitrated sugars!
And, why would anyone be SO stupid as to use the deuterated compund instead of normal acetonitrile?
Nitrated sugars
The_CowPrince - 6-11-2002 at 08:45
It`s always a idiom !andreas - 6-2-2003 at 11:00
Has somebody tried nitrated fructose??
if not I will tryb and make it as soon as I get some new H2SO4 and post the results.
no sulfuric?
bonemachine - 9-2-2003 at 13:28
Is it possible for a sugar to be nitrated without the presence of sulfuric acid? The only reason i wonder is because the sulfuric dehydrates sugar
every time i try to nitrate it.lucifer - 9-2-2003 at 14:09
I while a go I made some mannitol hexanitrate and tried to make it detonate with some flash powder,
It failed.
I heard that mannitol hexanitrate could be detonated with flash, and that it was a primary is this true?
Or can it only be detonated with a detonator a_bab - 9-2-2003 at 14:56
Well, if you have a kilo, it might me. But if you have a small quantity (a few grams) you'll only burn it. And the flash powder is supposed to be
confined in a tube, so the tube rupture will produce the shock. It's like a hammerblow, but a VERY powerfull one.
Sucrose nitrate failure
trinitrotoluene - 9-2-2003 at 22:08
I too had tried to prepear some sucrose nitrate. I added 30ml of H2SO4 into a 250ml beaker then added 25ml of HNO3, set it into a ice bath then slowly
added 10 grams of sucrose not letting the temperature go above 20*C.Then I let it react for a hour.I took it out of the ice bath, brought it inside
and went to the local ace hardware . After 2 hours I return home along with some NaBr, Ca(OCl)2, KNO3, NaNO3 ,H2SO4, and teflon tape. When I got home
my house had a strong smell of HNO3. Then when I went to chech my experiment the thermoneter was at 80*C. And there was a carbon mass in there. And
the liquid was also baclk. My mixture had dehydrated. And my whole house smells like strong HNO3. I opened up all the windows, then my parents arrived
home they was pissed off at me. I am in trouble right now with my parents. Nick F - 10-2-2003 at 05:43
Trinitrotoluene, hopefully that will teach you not to leave a nitration alone for TWO HOURS!!
Bonemachine, you ned to dissolve the sugar in cold HNO3 first, and then slowly drip in H2SO4. This will avoid dehydration.
halogens
a123x - 10-2-2003 at 19:23
For what purpose is NaBr sold? I've been wanting to expirement a bit with the non-gaseous halogens like bromine and iodine, mainly to see how well
stuff burns in them but its not exactly easy to find elemental halogens but I figure it isn't too difficult to generate chlorine which could be used
to replace the Br- or I- in a salt, outdoors an in small amounts of course as not to suffer from the chlorine. For that matter, are there any common
iodides that can be found in any usable amounts(2% iodine out of an ounce in tincture of iodine is a bit costly). I've searched online and pretty much
the only one I could find is KI for protection against raiation.Darkfire - 11-2-2003 at 20:50
NaBr is sold as a pool cleaner or balences, needless to say it is at pool stores, home depot, and target among others.
Bromine is toxic and corrosive, as is iodine and all other halogens so dont think beacause they are not gasses there safe, for producing any halogen
most likey all you will need to do is use MnO2 and an acid and heat the halogen bearing material. For iodine use an acidified h2o2 soultion and it
will ppt.
CTRPHILOU Zrealone - 19-3-2003 at 06:56
CD3-CN would be denser,but hell expensive vs CH3-CN!
You can make a binary explosive of it that has the power and sensitivity of NG simply by mixing it with HNO3(100%), N2O4(l) or C(NO2)4!
Using CD3-CN will only increase a bit the power (by 1 to 5%) owing to a better density but it is not worth the price!
Also CD3-CN is unstable!
CD3-CN + H2O (air) --> CD2H-CN + CDH2-CN + CH3-CN + HDO + D2O
A much better thing to test would be:
Heavy metal salts of polynitrogluconic acid...for sure sensitive primaries; also the cyclohexanhexol (inositol I think) (-CHOH-)6
All suggars should display relatively comparable properties except some of them are a little more stressed and will display slightly different
densities, impact sensitivities, heat sens or VOD!Nevermore - 7-10-2003 at 11:30
i nitrated some sugar today using NH4NO3 and H2SO4 since i don't have HNO3 available, the yeld was poor but not too bad, i nitrated 20 grams of
sugar and now i have around the same amount on nitrosucrose in a sticky form.
I am trying to dry it, even is not easy at all since is damn sticky and impossible to handle.
I wonder, is that possible to nitrate oil products? like nitrate the tablets used for light starting? and is that possible to nitrate paraffin?
ThanksBlind Angel - 7-10-2003 at 18:21
Fire starting tablet are generaly hexamine, there is already a lot of info on this, for parafine i dont know...Nevermore - 7-10-2003 at 20:07
not over here, here they are petrouleum products, nver seen hexamine..
Beside that the yeld of nitrosugar is extremely poor, i used equimolar amount of NH4NO3 and H2SO4, 40 ad 44g, 20 grams of sugar in order to operate in
large excess nitration mix, the nitration was performed by dissolving sugar in the nitration mix at low temp, then add conc H2SO4 while stirring, kept
the temperature around 0°C for one hour, then the sludge was dumped in large excess water, and the sugar nitrate was floating on top, was collected
and neutralized with NaHCO3 molding with hand to make it penetrate. Then was left over a piece of plastic wrap where it almost melted like a gum under
the sun becaming extremely sticky.
A burn test was performed and was rather fine, burns fiercerly but slower than NC making lotsa of smoke. Now is drying out, i guess for taking it out
from the plastic wrap i'll have to freeze it...
[Edited on 8/10/2003 by Nevermore]
Nitrofructose
Nevermore - 10-11-2003 at 16:21
I got some pure fructose for some tests about nitrating it, looks like nobody tried to nitrate it until now, i hope the presence of the pseudo ring
won't led to excessive sensitivity or instability of products and that it will be easy to nitrate as mannitol.
[Edited on 11/11/2003 by Nevermore]
*******
[Edited on 15/11/2003 by Nevermore]
synth result
Nevermore - 15-11-2003 at 05:55
Today i performed a test synth of nitrofructose, 40 grams powdered and dried NH4NO3 were mixed with 30ml H2SO4 96%, the mixture was cooled till it
reached 8°C in a large water-ice bath, then 6grams of pure human grade fructose were added in little parts while vigorously stirring; temp raised to
10°C where it remained for all the nitration time, before all the fructose was added it was noticed that chuncks started to appear in the mix. After
5 minutes the mix was full of large chuncks of a yellow hard solid, rubber like consistance (definitely not chewingum like nitrosucrose). The
nitration was let continue for 10 minutes while stirring then it was watered down in a far large excess water, the yellow solid collected at the
bottom in two large chuncks, after the acid were decanted off and new water was added a change was noted in the solid, it started to turn white and to
powder down.
In a cople of minutes, and with the help of the stirring rod all the chuncks were broken in small pieces that turned to be white small cristals. I
suppose the fructose agglomerated so only the outside layer could be fully nitrated, the lower nitrate were soluble and gummy consistence and
eventually dissolved in water.
Neutralization was performed, the synth yelded abour 3 times (still wet) the volume of fructose used in tiny white cristals, completely insoluble,
very similar to AP cristals.
They are drying at now over a porcelain surface for successive testing.Nevermore - 17-11-2003 at 02:51
the cristals are very soluble in acetone, i attempted recristallization from acetone solution dumped in water, but it looks like a failure, the
solution turned white but no precipitare shown. i'll wait a few days till all the acetone evaporates to see is any will form, if not, maybe the
product was not fully nitrated
Axt - 21-11-2003 at 01:14
I think this problem also happens with MHN in acetone (ive never tried it), but will recrystalise from warm alcohol. So you could try alcohol with
nitrofructose.
Dont expect great results but, as I get the same white solution when trying to recrystalise nitrolactose from both acetone and alcohol (warm
methylated spirits). If you find the secret to recrystalising these nitrosugars be sure to post it.Nevermore - 21-11-2003 at 11:24
by the way, is there anyone that had success in nitrating simple sugars (not poliols), as glucose, fructose, galactose and so on?
since the product i got is unsensutive to hit and burns very bad, that made me think maybe the sugar got oxidized during the nitration..
[Edited on 21/11/2003 by Nevermore]Axt - 22-11-2003 at 06:58
Havnt tried monosaccharides, but think ive found the problem, at least for lactose (glucose-galactose).
COPAE shows nitrolactose as both octanitrate and hexanitrate, with the hexanitrate remaining in solution from recrysalisation of the octanitrate from
alcohol, though it doesnt hint as to how its extracted from the solution, perhaps evaporation, what happened after you evaporated the acetone?
Confirmed by melting the LHN in hot water (mp 70°), whereas LON's mp = 145°.
I get about 75% LHN 25% LON using KNO3 as source of nitrate. (15g lactose / 45g KNO3 / 80ml H2SO4). This could be your problem with fructose?.Nevermore - 22-11-2003 at 09:36
that is very unlikely, i use 30ml SA 20g NH4NO3 and 6 grams fructose. I suppose some other thing was happening, did you have a test over your LHN?
hammer test, flame test?
how were the results?
[Edited on 22/11/2003 by Nevermore]Axt - 23-11-2003 at 18:50
Deflagrates simular to nitrostarch. Seems about as hammer sensitive as PETN.
I'll get more accurate measurements when the poms piss off and the weather clears up.AngelEyes - 24-11-2003 at 03:06
When the Poms piss off?
(we'll take the Webb-Ellis trophy with us...)
20-17: England World Champions!
The top Rugby team on the planet.
------------------------------------------------
WTF has this got to do with this thread?? - Vulture
[Edited on 24-11-2003 by vulture]
Absolutely nothing - I just felt like shouting it from the rooftops.
Apologies if I offended...
[Edited on 26-11-2003 by AngelEyes]Axt - 26-11-2003 at 02:04
Pommies have gone, so the sun could come back out and ....
I put nitrolactose (in matchbox) up against equal volumes of HNNM (in glass vial) and ANNM (85/15 in matchbox). Performance was pretty poor, on par
with the ANNM for damage to a 6mm Al plate and considering the non-ideal mix and low confinement of the ANNM, i'll give the Nitrolactose a VOD of
4000-4500m/s.
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/nitrolactose.jpg">Axt - 26-11-2003 at 17:38
Its hard to get photos of dents, but heres the damage, nitrolactose and ANNM were about the same depth with nitrolactose a little bit wider, HNNM
results were as expected... good.
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/alhole.jpg">Smoerie - 16-10-2004 at 13:29
is Nitrated Dextrose sensitive?
And how do you prefend de dehydration from your sugar when you added it???Keeping the temperature down?
Going to try it tomorrow...
greetz
Polyol Nitration experimets
PainKilla - 17-10-2004 at 10:51
I did some testing with polyols though I ahve not done all I wanted. Here is my results of malitol synth (common polyol):]
Reactants Used:
100ml (135g) H2SO4 (Rooto the gramage was off due to the H2SO4 not being anhydrous)
61g NH4NO3
38g C12-H24-O11 (Maltitol)
2000ml H2O ESU (Estimated Substance Used)
300g NaHCO3 ESU (Estimated Substance Used)
62.23g (44.44ml) H2SO4 + 51g NH4NO3 --> 40g (26.00ml) HNO3 + 73.23g NH4HSO4? (I would need a bit more H2SO4 since it's not concentrated
therefore 50ml is good.)
H2SO4 was chilled inside of a flask, in the freezer. After taking it out, the procedure followed immediately. The chilled H2SO4 was measured out to be
-8 degrees C. The flask was placed in a small-size ice bath. NH4NO3 was added in small portions, not letting the temperature jump higher than 15
degrees C. After the full addition of the NH4NO3 I pulled out thermometer and noticed white fumes, signifying that I had high % nitric, the addition
of C12-H24-O11 began. After the addition (added slowly of course) I let it nitrate for 45 minutes monitering temparature. Everything seemed normal
like any other standard nitration.
After that I did a standard filtration but I got this gum like solid that was VERY sticky. When I burned it (it wasn't dry though) it burned
slowly realsing NO2 vapor. I didn't get much product. I will be renitrating soon and doing an acetone extraction. I hope it'll work better
this time. My ETN synths go perfectly. I will buy soem more sugars next time I go to the store.
[Edited on 17-10-2004 by PainKilla]Rosco Bodine - 17-10-2004 at 16:48
Maltitol has 9 esterfiable hydroxyls by nitration . Maltose itself has 8 hydroxyls
and forms an octanitrate ester which is possibly the most stable and useful of the
nitrosugars , having been patented by Crater , US1887290 , as a blasting cap base charge , presumably superior to
nitrolactose , US1759565 . Generally the polyol is even more stable and powerful than the parent sugar , so it would seem
that Maltitol Nonanitrate would have promise as a useful nitrated polyol . I have suggested this , but have done no experiments . The use of
ammonium nitrate with sulfuric acid has not provided
as good results in my own experiments ,
as does the use of sodium or potassium nitrate . The synthesis method which Axt reported for Erythritol Tetranitrate would probably work well for
maltitol nitration ,
if the proportions of sulfuric acid and KNO3
were multiplied by 2.25 to provide sufficient nitration mixture for the 9 hydroxyls of maltitol , ( per mole of maltitol ) 9 / 4 = 2.25 You could
compare
the mole weight of Erythritol 122.12 with
the mole weight of Maltitol 344.31 and do the math to calculate proportions which
parallel Axt's method which has proven good for ETN . It may be useful to first
dissolve the maltitol in the H2SO4 , by
portionwise additions and stirring , and then add the solid nitrate portionwise to
perform the nitration , with cooling and
stirring . Recrystallizing the product from
warm denatured alcohol or acetone or a
mixture of the two , neutralizing and then
precipitating with gradual addition of water will need to be done to obtain a stable product , hopefully in good crystalline form .
There is nothing I have found in the literature concerning Maltitol Nonanitrate .
I haven't seen it listed in any patents or
the usual comprehensive references .
Please keep us informed of what your experiments with this promising compound
reveal .
According to my math , for each 1 gram of
maltitol to be nitrated , use 3.2 grams KNO3 and 5.33 ml H2SO4 to parallel the
proportions found useful by Axt for ETN .
If the ease of nitration is similar you should get a lot of the nonanitrate as
the main product .
[Edited on 18-10-2004 by Rosco Bodine]
[Edited on 18-10-2004 by Rosco Bodine]Taaie-Neuskoek - 18-10-2004 at 01:31
Question to Axt: What is HNNM??
I cannot find anything on google, nor on Roguesci...Axt - 18-10-2004 at 03:29
HN = hydrogen nitrate, nitric acid. Seemed like the most logical acronym at the time, but I can now see the confusion between nitric & hydrazine
nitrate which would probably be an equally good sensitiser, if not impractical.
In that case I believe it was NM with 95% HNO3 at OB (~2:1).Rosco Bodine - 18-10-2004 at 08:09
Axt ,
Usually NA would be the abbreviation for nitric acid , SA for sulfuric acid , PA for picric acid , ect . And generally the larger
proportion ingredient is first , although I have not always paid attention to that rule myself . So for your Sprengel explosive using nitromethane
and nitric acid , the clearest acronym would be NMNA .
When I was doing the math to determine
the molar corresponding amounts of the
nitration mixture for maltitol , based upon what was useful for erythritol as a model ,
I also reviewed the ETN thread at E&W where Axt's method and alternatives were discussed . One of the difficulties
reported was a very thick mixture , and
it is likely that difficulty will be even greater for using Axt's proportions for ETN
adapted to maltitol , so the amount of the
acid used may have to be increased a little
to facilitate a more fluid mixture which can be stirred more easily . The actual proportions which will be best for nitration of maltitol will have
to be determined from experiment , so the amounts of nitrate and acid which were
worked out mathematically should be regarded as a starting point for the minimum quantity of nitrate and acid per
gram of maltitol , not as a fixed rule .
Axt , did you ever experiment with different ratios or amounts of acid to
obtain a more fluid mixture when you were experimenting with ETN ?Taaie-Neuskoek - 18-10-2004 at 08:21
Can't you add DCM as liquifier?
DCM is known to be nicely inert, and you don't have to wast acid for it. (in case acid is quite expensive/hard to get...)Axt - 18-10-2004 at 08:30
Quote:
Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
Axt , did you ever experiment with different ratios or amounts of acid to
obtain a more fluid mixture when you were experimenting with ETN ?
Yes, that was the main factor in using that ratio, more KNO3 then that and it was too thick, and would unexpectedly solidify. Its hard to give a good
ratio for everyone, as H2SO4 is my most expensive, hard to get chem therefore the ratio I used made most use of it. Personally I rarely have probs
with 6g KNO3 to 10ml H2SO4.
Using NH4NO3 alleviated it a bit, thickens but not solid when using the same quantities (more moles), and while I cant confirm yields when I was using
AN it looked like a huge but fluffy yield. I actually got sick of filtering it and chucked a lot of it, so I cant give weights, but it definately is
worth trying if you have problems with KNO3.Rosco Bodine - 18-10-2004 at 08:38
Methylene Chloride , DCM , (dichloromethane ) has been suggested and is a definite possibility , however it is
unknown what effect if any would it have on the nitration state achieved for the product . Since the DCM becomes a solvent carrier for the product and
also for
the nitric acid , it introduces an unknown
effect with regards to potential decomposition . Also the volatility and
toxicity of DCM is troublesome in an open
nitration reaction in a beaker so for most
people simply adjusting the mixture of
acid and nitrate is a more appealing option .Taaie-Neuskoek - 19-10-2004 at 06:57
I my dreams I have some experience on the the synthesis of MHN,
Mannitol Hexa-Nitrate.
The problem is although, that the only proper method is AN+SA, and that I never got NA (65%) + SA to work. I nitrated mannitol in an excess NA, and
added later SA to precipitate the nitrate. I didn't get any precipitation when I added even twice the amount of SA...
Does anyone has a reasonable reason herefore? Or other idea's to try? maybe I should mix the acids and add the mannitol slowly, leaving them for
a couple of hours at -20 in the freezer. (what is suggested for SA + AN)
I'll try agian soon with a small amount agian.
The reason I ask this, is that I obtained new mannitol, and that I simply hate to purify AN from fertilliser, I never got it completely white, there
always were rests present of the Ca/Mg crap.
Nitration with 95+% NA worked nice and easy, but using that acid for this is a bit a waste...PainKilla - 19-10-2004 at 16:38
I didn't think maltitol had 9 things that could be nitrified or w/e. In any case, I didn't get the best prodcut but I will be dreaming the
synth on a lesser scale (no h2so4) using edited ratios (assuming 9 hydroxols are nitrable). I have a full log on ETN actaully... it will be attached.
It is actually my favorite nitrate... quite sensitive as a secondary and very pwoerful, plus the easiest nitration ever,.
Please excuse any discrepenicies though in the naming or structure or anything because I have not taken any chemistry yet , all from reading.
Structure was drawn on chemdraw freeware.
Attachment: etn.doc (34kB) This file has been downloaded 2081 times
I have a couple of thoughts about the nitration of maltitol . It may be a more
reasonable starting ratio for KNO3 and SA to simply use the same amounts per gram of maltitol as Axt used per gram of erythritol , even though that
per gram amount would actually supply a larger excess than theory for the maltitol nitration mixture , than is the excess supplied for erythritol , in
a mole for mole comparison .
The physical considerations are more a factor because of the viscosity of the mixture . And as a general rule , the greater the number of nitro
groups to be introduced , the greater the excess of theory for the nitrating mixture must be used to assure complete nitration . It is
unknown whether that general rule applies to maltitol , but it wouldn't be any
surprise if it should prove more difficult to
accomplish the complete nitration of all 9
hydroxyls on maltitol , compared with the
relative ease of complete nitration of only 4 hydroxyls for erythritol .
IIRC the per gram of erythritol quantities for KNO3 and SA were
4 grams KNO3 and 6.7 ml SA , by Axt's method .
Since there is absolutely nothing in the literature about either the nitration or the end product , the entire matter is theoretical and experimental
, and should be done with caution , small batch sizes , being watchful of the temperature , using good stirring , followed by neutralization and
recrystallization of the product .
If I was doing this nitration I would keep the temperature of the nitration mix somewhere about 35 C as the working
temperature and about 38 C as an upper limit , unless it showed evidence of fuming and decomposition requiring a lower temperature . For time of
nitration I would
start at thirty minutes and/or or watch for the falling temperature of the mixture as an indication of the endpoint , and adjust
the time or temperature or ingredient ratios for subsequent reactions if necessary to improve yield .kyanite - 21-10-2004 at 13:35
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I think I've read somewhere that nitric acid easily breaks down the alcohol part of sugars to form
Oxalic Acid or something...
Maybe this has been sabotaging your yeilds all this time, also explaing the NO2 smell of TNT's experiments?chemoleo - 21-10-2004 at 18:16
Although a valid point, I should think that the problem resides in HEATING the sample - I.e. no temperature control.
Which means the sugar is oxidised, rather than nitrated.
So if you prevent high temperatures, you won't get random oxidation to oxalic acid and others.nh4clo4 - 28-11-2004 at 10:40
Try nitrating antifreezes because it is a type of sugarPainKilla - 29-11-2004 at 12:49
It is well known that ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are nitrable....
Does anyone ahve any idea why my maltitol synth does no work? I keep getting a sticky product (perhaps not fully nitrated), that does nothing. It
could also be from sulphuric destroying groups possibly but I am not certain...any input on this, I used a 100ml 94% H2SO4, 60g NH4NO3 nittration
bath. The tempearte was kept under 10C....Marvin - 30-11-2004 at 02:39
The structural formula on the page Rosco posted is wrong. If I had to place bets, I would bet the incorrect maltitol would nitrate well, spot the
mistake to see why.
Antifreeze, sorbitol, PE etc, these are not sugars and the difference is important.PainKilla - 30-11-2004 at 05:18
I am well aware of what a sugar is, and the procedure I used was my own, in fact I did it long before Rosco posted his procedure. I will retry the
synthesis once I get some more acids, but that is off topic. Maltitol is a very large molecule...perhaps it is in someway it is impeding nitration? I
believe it forms a hexanitrate or octanitrate, but I am in school and don't want to look around since I'm doing other work :p.
[Edited on 30-11-2004 by PainKilla]Marvin - 30-11-2004 at 06:43
I'm not saying you dont know the difference but mistakes have been made in the thread that collectivly lead in the wrong direction.
I look at maltitol and it amazes me anyone would think its a good candidate for a nitrated explosive.Rosco Bodine - 30-11-2004 at 16:04
Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin
The structural formula on the page Rosco posted is wrong. If I had to place bets, I would bet the incorrect maltitol would nitrate well, spot the
mistake to see why
Hmmmm . Please explain .
Also with regard to why maltitol might form a useful nitration product , well that possibility is likely because the parent sugar forms a useful
nitration product which was patented . The polyols are generally more stable and powerful following nitration , than the nitration products of sugars
from which they derive . So why would this general rule not apply to maltitol ? Ditto for lactitol and other polyols .PainKilla - 1-12-2004 at 11:40
Also, relating to Rosco's post, I have found patents (now forgotten) regarding Maltitol's nitrate for a slurry explosive, so it is defiently
explosive then, at least to some extent.Marvin - 2-12-2004 at 15:44
At first glance it looks like an ether of 2 polyols and nitration looks fairly standard. Count the carbons though and get 13, not 12. Fairly easy to
spot where the problem is, a bent line should be straight and if the molecule splits (which is now much easier and plausable to my mind in mixed acid)
its now a polyol and a reducing sugar.Rosco Bodine - 2-12-2004 at 22:22
I think they mean to show an Oxygen substituted for one Carbon in what would otherwise be a standard benzene ring structure . See the "O" at
the vertex and the broken line . They represent the same structure the same way for lactitol .
Seems like you're about 100 years late if you wanted to be first, T.L Davis quotes "Pictet and Reilly, Helv. Chim. Acta, 4, 613 (1921)". Dornier 335A - 3-9-2014 at 10:11
Seems like you are about 10 years late with this post Fulmen.Fulmen - 3-9-2014 at 21:29
)
Try nitrating antifreezes because it is a type of sugar