Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Oslo and the amateur experimenter

The WiZard is In - 26-7-2011 at 08:44

One of my acolyte's just sent me this missive....

Hi Don,

The mass murdering of mainly innocent kids in Oslo recently will
also have a tremendous effect and influence on the amateur pyro
hobbyism in future in Europe.

As terrorist bombing attacks, drug design and fireworks accidents
during the last two decades already were followed by strict rules
and difficult availability of chemicals and apparatus, the Oslo
attack probably will wipe out euro pyro hobbyism.

In his 1500+ pages large manifesto the mass murderer Breivic
writes about how to get chemicals and to cover up the story, and
he promotes using the pyro hobby amateur status to hide evil
goals like blowing up people.

From his manifesto, page 1029, quote:

"General chemical cover story

As there are a wide range of chemicals I will not cover them all.
Just research the specific chemical in Wikipedia and you will see an
overview of commercial/industrial uses. Make up an appropriate
cover story for that specific chemical. Be creative.

Explosive chemical cover story

If a compound has limited or no civilian uses, you should just say
that you are a pyrotechnical enthusiast who are going to create a
nice, low budget show for your sister’s wedding ceremony/new
years eve in a rural area. And that you have been creating various
pyrotechniques for years. There are several thousands of these
enthusiasts all around Europe and many suppliers are familiar with
them and their hobby. You don’t want to tell him any of this unless
he specifically asks, though. Remember to research which
pyrotechnique compound you are planning on creating, just in
case."

And about obtaining a lab he writes, quote:

"Renting a lab

Many individuals make the mistake of using their urban apartment
as a lab. Firstly; if anyone (neighbours, friends, family) sees you
wearing a respirator face mask/hazmat suit they will notify the
system protectors. If they accidentally find any of your equipment
they may notify the system protectors. If anyone smells chemical
odors in your block they will also notify the system protectors.
Don’t be an idiot and take unnecessary risks. Rent a small
cottage/farm in an isolated place. If you can’t afford to, then you
shouldn’t be working with explosives anyway and should consider
limiting your operation to one which only requires guns.

So the question remains; is it really worth risking your life for a
military operation with only 3% success rate? It is probably worth
it if you have a realistic chance (50%+) of successfully creating a
500 kg truck bomb, which has the capability to destroy a medium
or large building, thus instantly executing 100-300 category A, B
and C traitors. However, if your bomb is only likely to have the
capacity to kill 1-15 individuals, you are probably better off
focusing on perfecting a small arms operation. Because a small
arms operation should result in 10-30 executions for single cell
operations, 20-60 executions for duo cell and 30-90 executions for
triple cell. So before you decide whether you want to incorporate
an explosive component to your operation; be pragmatic and
always choose a realistic option which reflects your capabilities.
Never choose operations which has a lower than 50% success rate,
unless the payoff is exceptionally high. Be ambitious but at the
same time; don’t be naive. The manufacturing of explosives is not
for anyone and should NOT be the goal for everyone. A successful
mission MUST be the ultimate goal for any and all Justiciar Knights,
and for the most part; this will include limiting your operation to
small arms shock attacks of undefended concentrations of
category A, B and C traitors." End Quote.

If you do not have the manifesto yet, here it is and it is long years
of food for psychologists and psychiatrists. It gives good insight in
the life and mind of a lone wolf terrorist with psychopathic
megalomania.

Best regards, ....

-----------
This URL [PDF] is the fist of many that pop up @ Google.

http://tinyurl.com/3b6okkh


Arthur Dent - 26-7-2011 at 08:58

You can safely bet this will attract quite a bit of attention, I remember on the news mentions on that manifesto about the synthesis of picric acid... You can imagine that the little latitude left in the hobby of home chemistry is going to disappear in a puff! Sadly, this unwanted attention and scrutiny will increase our level of difficulty tenfold. Seems the crazies are starting to come out of the woodworks more and more... An old chinese proverb says "(may) we live in interesting times..."

Robert

gregxy - 26-7-2011 at 10:27

I have been surprised at how "relatively" kind the media has been to this guy here in the USA. Showing nice looking photos of him and providing his "presentation slides" and manifesto for all to see and without a lot of negative commentary.




peach - 26-7-2011 at 11:04

This is page 1,000 from his manifesto.

Have a look at his reference <---- Link



[Edited on 26-7-2011 by peach]

The WiZard is In - 26-7-2011 at 11:21

Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
I have been surprised at how "relatively" kind the media has been to this guy here in the USA. Showing nice looking photos of him and providing his "presentation slides" and manifesto for all to see and without a lot of negative commentary.


It is not for naught that some here call it —

The Eastern Liberal News Establishment..
One could add — Western LNE....

mr.crow - 26-7-2011 at 12:10

He referenced science madness? FUCK!

BTW how are our Norwegian members doing? Hope no one was hurt

hkparker - 26-7-2011 at 22:59

He seriously referenced us?? No kidding FUCK :(!

If authorities go through that, I can just imagine....

textex - 27-7-2011 at 05:25

I see that polish authorities have suspeceted or charged the owner of Keten chemicals for supplying him(the terrorist) with "unauthorized chemicals" which is a small ammount of NaNO2 and 150kgs of Al powder. They say he can face up to 8 years.

What is also interesting is that Norwegian authorities had all the Norwegian customers of keten on a list whick they supposedly got from part of customs which has to do with currency and Interpol.

Its ok with me though, as long as they use it to keep the nation safe, and not to harass all the hobby chemists.

a_bab - 27-7-2011 at 06:28

One article: http://www.trove.com/channel/search/content/jmPcy


mr.crow - 27-7-2011 at 10:17

Cops took the guys computer, sigh. Probably knocked the door down and held everyone up with machine guns too. There was also the place that sold the AN fertilizer. I think the killer had a farm so it wasn't suspicious.

In a few threads I was talking about AN, like purifying or recrystallizing 100g worth. Now paranoia and suspicion are back.

peach - 27-7-2011 at 11:13

The main concern of the police will be that they are not part of his 'knights of templar' hate campaign, and so knowingly supplying him for the purposes of making high explosives.

They will want to check how the farm supplier vets customers for bulk orders of nitrates, and Lukasz for the curiously large quantity of aluminium powder. Reading through his manifesto, there are clues as to what he's likely said to Lukasz, if Lukasz asked.

The only interest they're likely to show in the order histories is if someone else has been placing similar orders, as that could be either Anders or an accomplice who's also working on a similar bomb for a similar purpose.

Quote:
Breivik's lawyer has stated that Breivik may be insane.[63] The chief of the Norwegian Police Security Service disputes the claim Breivik is insane saying "His lawyer is not a psychologist and I am not. But I have previously been a defense attorney and I perceive him as a sane person because he has been so focused over such a long time."[64] Breivik himself has confessed to using testosterone in the days before the attack, saying he had become more aggressive after coming off testosterone supplements.


It looks like not only his lawyer but also Breivik are going to try for insanity.

It is unlikely someone who put so much logical thought into his planning is of such unsound mind that he could not understand the severity of it. It is important he is charged appropriately for what he's done, which means demonstrating the elaborate logic he put into the murdering.

Another concern is the following. He sent that manifesto to lots of other people. If those other people also happen to have been placing orders for chemicals, speaking with them, quickly, would be important.

Quote:
The man responsible for the mass killing in Norway emailed his 1,500-page document to 250 British contacts less than 90 minutes before he began his attack, according to a Belgian MP.

Anders Behring Breivik sent his manifesto to 1,003 email addresses at 2.09pm on Friday – less than an hour and a half before he detonated a bomb in Oslo.

According to Tanguy Veys MP for the rightwing anti-Muslim party Vlaams Belang, – and one of those who received the document – approximately a quarter of those on the email list were UK-based.

"I think the UK was the biggest group [of recipients]," he told the Guardian last night. "There were people from Italy, France Germany … but the UK was the biggest number."

Using the name Andrew Berwick, Breivik emailed his manifesto and a link to a YouTube video and addressed each recipient "Western Europe patriot" and wrote: "It is a gift to you … I ask you to distribute it to everyone you know."

It has been reported that Scotland Yard's domestic extremism unit, which is investigating Breivik's British links, has been sent a list of UK-based email addresses although the Met refused to confirm that.

Veys said he had not had any contact with Breivik and condemned his actions.

"Looking through this it seems very difficult to find a criteria for who he sent it to … it is very strange and I am cross I have been associated with him in any way."

The news of the emails came as anti-racism campaigners in the UK said they believed Breivik may have been in touch with activists from the far-right English Defence League as recently as March.

Searchlight, the anti-fascist magazine, said the 32-year-old used the pseudonym of a 12th-century Norwegian king who led one of the Crusades to communicate with people on an English Defence League forum.

In one posting, on 9 March, the author called on rightwing activists in the UK to "keep up the good work". The message said: "Hello. To you all good English men and women, just wanted to say that you're a blessing to all in Europe, in these dark times all of Europe are looking to you in such [sic] of inspiration, courage and even hope that we might turn this evil trend with islamisation all across our continent. Well, just wanted to say keep up the good work it's good to see others that care about their country and heritage. All the best to you all. Sigurd."

Breivik boasted about his links to the UK far-right group in his manifesto. He also wrote that he was given the codename "Sigurd (the Crusader)" at a founding meeting of a group called the Knights Templar Europe in London in 2002. There is no confirmation that the author is Breivik. Sigurd is a common name in Norway.

In other messages, "Sigurd" says he attended a football ground in the UK and expressed his admiration for the EDL.

"I've seen with my own eyes what has happened to england, i was in bradford some years ago, me and a friend walked down to the football stadium of bradford, real 'nice' neighborhood, same thing in the suburbs of london. well thinking about taking a little trip over the sea and join you in a demo. would be nice with a norwegian flag alongside with union jack or the english flag, that is if a norwegian would be welcome offcourse?"

In another message, he goes on to discuss the situation in Norway.

"The biggest problem in Norway is that there is no real free press, there is a left-wing angle on all the political topics so most people are going around like idiots. And offcourse with our norwegian labour party beeing in power for most of the last 50 years dont help. but i i think there is an awakening now at least i hope so."

In his manifesto, Breivik repeatedly refers to the EDL, stating at one point: "I used to have more than 600 EDL members as Facebook friends and have spoken with tens of EDL members and leaders."

"In fact, I was one of the individuals who supplied them with processed ideological material (including rhetorical strategies) in the very beginning."

"There also appears to be a growing dispute among some figures associated with the EDL over who Breivik's "mentor" Richard may be. In his manifesto, the Norwegian said he met "Richard" at the Knights Templar meeting in 2002 and says the pair became "close."

The EDL – which has staged a series of street demonstrations, many of which have turned violent, denies any links to Breivik and has condemned the killings, stating it is a peaceful organisation that rejects all forms of extremism.

Last night the EDL said in an emailed statement that it was "not aware of any contact between Breivik and EDL leadership … of anyone using the name Sigurd and the forum".

"You must realise anyone on the EDL Forum or EDL Facebook can join and make up any name that they may choose."

Since the killings there have been unconfirmed reports that Breivik attended EDL demonstrations in the UK last year – possibly in London and Newcastle


[Edited on 27-7-2011 by peach]

DDTea - 27-7-2011 at 19:37

A few months ago, there was a heated series of threads relating to discussion of weapons on this forum--albeit, in a perfectly scientific manner. The fact that homicidal, politically-oriented, sociopaths have cited this forum should reinforce the need for us to vigorously maintain some of the rules that are in place on this forum, specifically prohibiting discussions related to improvised weaponry and "applications" of energetic materials.

gregxy - 27-7-2011 at 21:56

In the USA, gun making is perfectly legal as long as you make legal type guns, but there are dozens of other forums devoted to that so it does not need to be discussed here.

What should be deleted are the endless threads on making explosives from easily available materials, and everything related to NH4NO3. The energetics section should be restricted only to pyrotechnics which do not DDT, and advanced compounds and analysis techniques. No replies should be given to new comers asking "how do I make or use explosive XX".

condennnsa - 27-7-2011 at 22:49

i can't believe what this guy did , horrifying

peach - 28-7-2011 at 07:13

An easy option to start with would be to lock the energetics section so people have to ask permission to use it, like the whimsy. That way, we can instantly ditch all the one post pryos and keep a better watch on what's actually being discussed.

The argument that it 'can' be legal to produce some of them is similar to the argument that it 'can' be legal to make your own guns and handle otherwise controlled topics. A piece of paper from the Home Office will make it legal to make meth in your kitchen. But the attitude towards people with one post asking how to do that is quite different to the one shown to those asking about explosives.

The former, people don't like because it hurts people. Little else hurts people more than an accidental or malevolently intended explosion.

The idea could be carried over to posts I, Klute and Len have made, about things that could possibly be used to make chemical weapons. It would be somewhat more difficult for someone with only a basic grasp of chemistry to actually do that. And the reagents being made are of significant use in numerous applications that have nothing to do with harming people. Unlike explosives.

A new application of high explosives is using them to print holograms into steel. If I saw someone having a go at that, that would be much more impressive since it demonstrates a level of ability and interest beyond making things just go bang as loudly as possible.

We all know, the majority of those posts in the forum are being made by people who posses no form of license, no form of insurance, an intent to produce a decent quantity of high explosives and, too frequently, an insufficient level of practical ability. One of your first recrystallisation should not be going towards a high explosive, in that your first dangerous gas experiments should not be with phosgene; as myfanwy discovered, with the outcome being his death.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by peach]

The WiZard is In - 28-7-2011 at 07:20

Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  
A few months ago, there was a heated series of threads relating to discussion of weapons on this forum--albeit, in a perfectly scientific manner. The fact that homicidal, politically-oriented, sociopaths have cited this forum should reinforce the need for us to vigorously maintain some of the rules that are in place on this forum, specifically prohibiting discussions related to improvised weaponry and "applications" of energetic materials.


Explosives? Piffle. We need to ban discussions of flammable
liquids. Remember do we? The largest mass murder in NY
if not la US of A was not committed with explosives... gasoline
was used . 89 killed in the Happy Land's Social Club arson
murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

Byda I believe there is already a ban on the discussion of
devices especially infernal devices here where
science is often most mad.



djh
-----
"What is wrong with the
world is — too many freaks
and too few circuses."

Lizard Lick Towing Operator/owner

I suffer from expecting we will be a seeing a SL
of these in the coming weeks.

Finnish police arrest youth on explosives charge

AP
HELSINKI (AP) — Finnish police say they have arrested an 18-
year-old man who ordered 22 pounds (10 kilograms) of fertilizer
from Poland to build make explosives. Local media cited police as
saying the man wanted to experiment with making his own
fireworks.

The Finnish National Bureau of investigation says agents grew
suspicious when the man on Tuesday received a package of
fertilizer, which contains ammonium nitrate and can be used for
making explosives.

Police said Thursday they arrested the man in the town of Lahti in
southern Finland after searching his home. They said "during the
search a number of things were confiscated and these things were
meant to manufacture an explosive device."

Police said the case has no connections to the massacre of 76
people in Norway on Friday.




AndersHoveland - 28-7-2011 at 07:28

peach, I do not think that idea makes much real sense. The energetics section mostly describes compounds which are not easy to prepare in large quantities, and too inconvenient for use by terrorists. The chemistry and chemical terminology involved creates its own sort of "encryption barrier", as nearly all would-be terrorists do not have much chemistry knowledge, or would take the effort to learn enough about it. The people actually interested in chemistry are not the sort of people that want to kill innocent people.

Perhaps a variation of what peach suggested would be to create a separate restricted section only for organic peroxides and ammonium nitrate compositions. Nearly all terrorist bombings have involved one of these two classes of explosives.

Besides, explosives are not really any more effective to kill innocent people than guns or petrol well placed in a crowded building. Terrorists normally use explosives for special effect- to instill fear, as the media sensationalizes bombings much more than they do shootings, which are actually relatively common place. Somehow society seems to be more paranoid about explosives than guns.

Consider that, on average, more people are murdered in Mexico within a 48 hour time period than the number of people that were recently killed in Oslo. There are plenty of mass-murders that go on in Mexico, but the Western media scarcely mentions the details of most of these crimes. You have to ask yourself why the media is making such a big deal about the shootings in Norway, and what agenda they are trying to push.


[Edited on 28-7-2011 by AndersHoveland]

peach - 28-7-2011 at 07:41

That's true.

Particularly the part about the more people are interested in the topic the less they seem to be in hurting anyone.

But I also don't see what harm it'd do to lock the section, given that the people who fit into that above category are quite few in number and it's not as if locking it would be entirely erasing or hiding the section.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by peach]

AndersHoveland - 28-7-2011 at 07:53

I do not believe arbitrary restriction is the answer to crime, terrorism, or violence. People get shot by guns. Should we completely restrict the discussion of guns?
People have been killed by petrol, battery acid has been thrown into people's faces, and innocent people have intentionally been run over. Should we give up cars?

Restricting the discussion of explosives only seems like a good idea to some people because explosives do not have many common uses in society, and those people just automatically link explosives to terrorism. If it was not so common for people to prepare their own food in their homes, we would likely be having a discussion about whether to require licenses for the possession of metal knives.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by AndersHoveland]

The WiZard is In - 28-7-2011 at 08:06

Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  
A few months ago, there was a heated series of threads relating to discussion of weapons on this forum--albeit, in a perfectly scientific manner. The fact that homicidal, politically-oriented, sociopaths have cited this forum should reinforce the need for us to vigorously maintain some of the rules that are in place on this forum, specifically prohibiting discussions related to improvised weaponry and "applications" of energetic materials.



Comes upon my mind. We should stop the self flagellation until
we know for sure what he used to make la Bomb. He may not have
made it per his manifesto. I would go for a commercial cap and
dynamite. As most always — time will tell. Maybe.

peach - 28-7-2011 at 08:21

We do restrict guns, with gun licenses. And cars with drivers licenses.

Explosives are also supposed to be restricted with licenses. The differences are that cars have a positive use in society to everyday people beyond running other people over, and it's quite hard to build a gun or a car. Whereas it's significantly easier for someone to DIY their own explosives and bypass all the licensing issues, with the end result having very little use to the public beyond engaging in illegal activity. Which means there is a stronger case for attempting to control the ease with which they get that information.

I, and I'm sure many others, attempt to gauge the persons level of ability prior to replying to a thread, so I don't instruct a teenager on how to do something that I think stands a serious chance of killing him. Of coarse, he can go off and get that information elsewhere, and I could reply with complete instructions saying it's his own fault if something bad happens. But there are countless examples in society where that is either not considered morally acceptable or is straight out illegal; showing children pornography for instance, to show them where babies come from and because they can get it on the net anyway.

What is the serious harm locking it would do by comparison to the possible benefits it will have?

Also remember, the guy was referencing specifically this forum, that has such a level of knowledge on it that it is mined and referenced by other forums. I believe it would demonstrate a good approach and awareness of the issues to take some form of action with that in mind. If more people had been more responsible, fewer chemicals would now be controlled. However, an excellent way to get more restricted is to allow highly irresponsible discussion to take place. Life is not, and needn't be, entirely polarised to one specific extreme. And I don't feel locking a forum so the discussion can be kept responsible is an extreme.

Reducing the discussion to the idea that we should ban battery acid and petrol is facetious. The reasoning behind why battery acid and petrol are legal, but the discussion of how to throw it at someone is not, should be obvious.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by peach]

peach - 28-7-2011 at 08:36

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  

Comes upon my mind. We should stop the self flagellation until
we know for sure what he used to make la Bomb. He may not have
made it per his manifesto. I would go for a commercial cap and
dynamite. As most always — time will tell. Maybe.


Given that they've kicked Keten's door through and gone to the farm supplier, it's a safe bet it's not commercial dynamite.

{edit}Okay, not safe, but decent.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by peach]

gregxy - 28-7-2011 at 09:03

This guy was arrested for sugar and shotgun shells:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/07/28/fort.hood.arrest/index.h...

Regardless of what the nut in Oslo did, LE has an extremely low tolerance for anything related to explosives. Plus I would not want to think that anything that I did contributed to a terrorist act.



The WiZard is In - 28-7-2011 at 09:22

Quote: Originally posted by peach  
Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  

Comes upon my mind. We should stop the self flagellation until
we know for sure what he used to make la Bomb. He may not have
made it per his manifesto. I would go for a commercial cap and
dynamite. As most always — time will tell. Maybe.


Given that they've kicked Keten's door through and gone to the
farm supplier, it's a safe bet it's not commercial dynamite.


I was thinking of dynamite as the initiator for ANFO or some
such.


AndersHoveland - 28-7-2011 at 09:59

“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”
-- Thomas Jefferson, one of the primary founders and third president of the USA

"Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty."
-- John Basil Barnhill

“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
– Edward Murrow

I believe that knowledge of explosives is just as essential to protecting civil liberties as ownership of guns.
During the second world war in Britain, the government was actually encouraging reserve militias to arm themselves with grenades and anti-tank weapons. Eric Arthur Blair (better known as "George Orwell"), author of Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm, belonged to such a militia and was himself an amateur explosives experimenter.

For futher thoughts about restricting information, I would refer you to: http://energetic.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&a...

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by AndersHoveland]

starman - 28-7-2011 at 10:36

My personal feeling is something akin to violation.That this 'crusader' has taken from our collective wisdom to assist him in mass murder.That he actually 'credits' a specific thread on this site in his mass murder manual.
I would really value Polverone's thoughts on how his baby has been abused.

Fusionfire - 28-7-2011 at 11:24

Guys come on. If we go down the slippery slope of restricting anything that might be abused to kill people we'll all end up curfewed in padded rooms and using mandatory Zimmer frames :D

Peach, cars may have a positive benefit but they kill more people per year than guns, explosives, poisons, etc. Don't you think their cons outweighs their benefits and ban them too? :)

On the whole I think explosives have had a positive effect on humanity. The mining, quarrying, O&G, etc industries use them extensively. Energetics which can encompass fuels, propellants, pyrotechnics and explosives are literally the driving force for modern engineering - either directly (e.g. internal combustion engines) or indirectly (e.g. power plants for retail energy).

Besides if you are going down the fascist path and censoring free speech then remember that the kewls and terrorists can go to Usenet where on some boards, there is no moderation at all. At least there is a culture of user responsibility and maturity here. We try to advise and educate those who may be set on a reckless path. In the wider WWW it is possible some people may be given bad advice by people just wanting to "see what happens" when acetone peroxide meets kewl :mad:

hkparker - 28-7-2011 at 11:31

I support locking the explosives section. Its not censorship at all! Just a way to prevent reckless people from having the information they need to do something that could kill them. Believe me, I'm anti censorship, but I don't see this as an infringement on that.

hissingnoise - 28-7-2011 at 11:48

Quote: Originally posted by starman  
My personal feeling is something akin to violation.That this 'crusader' has taken from our collective wisdom to assist him in mass murder.That he actually 'credits' a specific thread on this site in his mass murder manual.

Let's just remember that this, er, 'conservative Christian' shot most of his victims - and does anyone really think that an absence of info on the web would have have prevented him building a bomb?



Fusionfire - 28-7-2011 at 12:43

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote: Originally posted by starman  
My personal feeling is something akin to violation.That this 'crusader' has taken from our collective wisdom to assist him in mass murder.That he actually 'credits' a specific thread on this site in his mass murder manual.

Let's just remember that this, er, 'conservative Christian' shot most of his victims - and does anyone really think that an absence of info on the web would have have prevented him building a bomb?


I despair sometimes. With all the knee jerk reactions at the rate we are going one day an engineering or science degree will need its applicants to be security-vetted :(

And no, a gun is not hard to make. Don't forget primitive guns were invented long before high explosives.

AndersHoveland - 28-7-2011 at 13:18

Quote: Originally posted by starman  
My personal feeling is something akin to violation.That this 'crusader' has taken from our collective wisdom to assist him in mass murder.That he actually 'credits' a specific thread on this site in his mass murder manual.
I would really value Polverone's thoughts on how his baby has been abused.


As far as we know, it seems to have been a fertilizer bomb- not really the sort of thing discussed in the energetics section. Although the manifesto made an obscure mention to sciencemadness, and expressed the virtues of DDNP, it is highly doubtful that anything on this forum was used to make the bomb. A huge clump of dangerously unstable TATP or a stick of dynamite was probably used as the initiator. Information about organic peroxides was widespread on the internet before this forum appeared.

Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  
Guys come on. If we go down the slippery slope of restricting anything that might be abused to kill people we'll all end up curfewed in padded rooms

Exactly, many of you are reacting instinctively and irrationally. Guns kill many more people than explosives do.

Rogeryermaw - 28-7-2011 at 13:19

Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  


I despair sometimes. With all the knee jerk reactions at the rate we are going one day an engineering or science degree will need its applicants to be security-vetted :(

And no, a gun is not hard to make. Don't forget primitive guns were invented long before high explosives.


one day? you mean now! sure, you can get into college and get a degree, but these days, entering the workforce in a chemical or technology related position already requires criminal and background checks. i personally had to go through a rigorous screening process to install networked security equipment. granted, it was for the military, but i am not military personnel. it was nice in that it gained me a mid-level security clearance, but i had to dig into over 10 years of my past including everyone i had known, all jobs i had held, all residences i had lived at for more than a week and entire life of criminal history. it took me about 6 months to compile all that information.

barley81 - 28-7-2011 at 13:22

Would it be a good idea to change the link/number for the thread he referenced so only people who searched for it here could find it? Something like 'sorry, the link you entered does not exist' when the link is used. Then only people who search for the thread can find it.

edit:
On second thought, that's useless. Anyone who wanted to investigate would definitely not be stopped by that.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by barley81]

AndersHoveland - 28-7-2011 at 13:22

Quote: Originally posted by Rogeryermaw  

these days, entering the workforce in a chemical or technology related position already requires criminal and background checks. i personally had to go through a rigorous screening process to install networked security equipment. granted, it was for the military, but i am not military personnel. it was nice in that it gained me a mid-level security clearance, but i had to dig into over 10 years of my past including everyone i had known, all jobs i had held, all residences i had lived at for more than a week and entire life of criminal history. it took me about 6 months to compile all that information.


That is because they have to protect against those pestilent Chinese stealing American technology and secrets. And it would not be "politically correct" to only put asians through the screening process. Just like middle easterners (and blacks who could come from muslim Africa) at the airport security.

Quote: Originally posted by barley81  
Would it be a good idea to change the link/number for the thread he referenced so only people who searched for it here could find it? Something like 'sorry, the link you entered does not exist' when the link is used. Then only people who search for the thread can find it.


I actually think that is a good idea. People in the government and media are not rational, they will not go to the trouble of circumventing this. It will not look good at all if anyone can just simply type in the link in the much publicized manifesto and come straight here. Yes, just simply move that particular thread somewhere else to change the exact web address.

In any case, the thread, which is about "purifying ammonium nitrate" would not really be very useful for making a large fertilizer bomb. Such procedures are nearly impossible to scale up to hundreds of kilos outside a factory. No terrorist is going to go to the immense trouble of trying to purify such large quantities of fertilizer. It should also be mentioned that ammonium nitrate in smaller quantities does not pose much of a threat at all; compared to the quantity of explosive needed to set it off, a half kilo is comparatively harmless.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by AndersHoveland]

The WiZard is In - 28-7-2011 at 13:28

Quote: Originally posted by hkparker  
I support locking the explosives section. Its not censorship at all! Just a way to prevent reckless people from having the information they need to do something that could kill them. Believe me, I'm anti censorship, but I don't see this as an infringement on that.


Why stop there .....



New Scientist
9 vi 01

EACH YEAR around this time Feedback's favourite government report
appears-the Home and Leisure Accident Surveillance System report from
Britain's Department of Trade and Industry. It gives figures for accidents reported
by people admitted to a sample group of British hospitals and then gives
extrapolated estimates for the country as a whole.

First the bad news in this year's report, which is based on 1999 data: the toll of
accidents caused by tea cosies is up again, with a national estimate of 37 tea
cosy injuries, compared with 20 the previous year. Equally alarming, the number
of accidents caused by place mats-a menace we have paid too little attention to
in the past-is up from 157 to 165 across the country as a whole.

These worrying figures are somewhat balanced by a welcome decline in
another area of concern-sponge and loofah accidents. The shocking previous
total of 996 nationwide is now down to 787.

But the major causes of concern are still with us. The number of people
hospitalised after a trouser accident (up from 5137 to 5945) is worryingly high,
while the drop in injuries inflicted by armchairs (down from 18,690 to 16,662)
leaves little room for complacency. Hospitalisations caused by socks and tights
have also risen (10,773 compared to 9843 previously), while injuries inflicted by
vegetables remain unacceptably high at 13,132 compared with the previous
year's 12,362.

The number of accidents involving tree trunks has also risen from 1777 to
1810, while leaf accidents have soared from 664 to 1171, with a similar increase
in birdbath accidents from 117 to 311.

Many people will also be shocked by the number of accidents caused by
beanbags, which has risen from 957 to 1317. The seriousness of this menace
becomes clear when measured against the 329 injuries caused by meat cleavers
or the 439 caused by rat or mouse poison.

In fact, the report makes it clearer than ever that our homes are full of
unacknowledged dangers. It identifies 3421 people nationwide as having been
injured by clothes baskets, while other threats include dust pans (146 injuries),
bread bins (91), talcum powder (73), toiletroll holders (329), clogs (622), false
teeth (933) and wellington boots (5615).

As in the past, printed magazines like New Scientist caused far more injuries
than chainsaws-4371 compared with 1207.

So remember-you can't be too careful.

----
Beware of your bathtub!

http://tinyurl.com/4yyemyq


-------------
From his rantings ...


The first week of my “explosive research phase” I googled for 200
hours over the course of 2 weeks. I was worried that I had to use
obscure search engines if google had banned many search phrases
or sources, but to my surprise google seemed to be fully functional
in this regard. There are a lot of various explosives forums around
(f example: roguesci.org/theforum) which will discuss in depth
concerning hundreds of different recipes and methods of
manufacture explosives. There are hundreds of various books out
there about this subject. However, most of them are quite difficult
to locate unless you know the title of the book. I will provide a list
of descent books you can locate:

List

Improvised Primary Explosives (PDF)
Revised Black Book – A Guide To Field-Manufactured Explosives –
William Wallace
Home and Recreational Use of High Explosives – Ragnar Benson (PDF)
Igniter, High Temp, How to make it (PDF)
Ragnars Detonators (PDF)
ANNM (PDF)
Nitromethane explosives (PDF)
Nitromethane Liquid Explosive (PDF)
Mujahideen Explosives Handbook (PDF)


I also found two libraries on thepiratebay.org called:

“Forbidden Knowledge” (15 books)

._3842828-How-to-Make-Acetone-Peroxide
._Disaster Preparation Survival
._Elements_of_military_science
._Explosives_Black_Book_Companion
._Guerrilla_s Arsenal
._Home_Workshop_Explosives_-_Uncle_Fester
._How to Start Train a Militia Unit
._IRA-Handbook
._Ragnar_Benson_-_Homemade_Detonators
._Synthesis II
._The Anarchists Cookbook
._The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives
._THE_PREPARATORY_MANUAL_OF_EXPLOSIVES
._THE-COMPLETE-KITCHEN-IMPROVISED-PLASTIC-EXPLOSIVES
._Uncle-Fester-Secrets-of-Methamphetamine Manufacture-7th-Edition

and another really large file containing more than 200 books and a
ton of files:

“Explosives Books Collection” (639 files)


You do not have to spend 2 weeks studying the above literature as
I have included the most important information (providing you
manage to acquire the materials).



djh
---
Byda the Eco Nuts have posted their —

Starting Fires With Electrical Timers :
An Earth Liberation Front Guide



Rogeryermaw - 28-7-2011 at 13:32

@ Anders certainly true, but the fact remains that this wave of invasive procedures is not part of a near future but part of the here and now. and it is infuriating because, like the protests about gun control, further controls on chemicals will not stop the determined terrorist. it will only serve to confound the law-abiding. those who wish to do crime will find a way and those of us who want to legally explore nature are being ushered away.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by Rogeryermaw]

Dangerous Information

The WiZard is In - 28-7-2011 at 13:33

Time to borrow this from my HD yet again.


Park Elliott Dietz, I M. D., M. P. H., Ph. D.

Dangerous Information: Product Tampering and
Poisoning Advice in Revenge and Murder Manuals

REFERENCE: Dietz, P. E., "Dangerous Information: Product Tampering and
Poisoning Advice in Revenge and Murder Manuals,"
Journal of Forensic Sciences. Vol. 33, No. 5, Sept. 1988, pp. 1206-1217.

ABSTRACT: This paper reviews 18 publications that advocate the use of product
tampering and other poisoning methods as techniques for exacting revenge
against individuals and corporations, as methods of committing murder, and for
other criminal purposes. Several of the particular techniques recommended in
these publications subsequently have been used in criminal tampering incidents.
The published sources of technical guidance for the would-be tamperer and
poisoner are examined in detail to alert forensic scientists, law enforcement
authorities, and the food and drug industry to the particular techniques that are
being advocated. Possible criminal and civil liability of the publishers and authors
is discussed. The author suggests that food and drug retailers consider the
wisdom of selling magazines that advertise the availability of revenge and
murder manuals advocating product tampering and poisoning, that food and
drug manufacturers test the effects on their products of the contaminants that
are being recommended, and that investigators be alert to the existence of such
manuals and mail-order suppliers of poisons.

KEYWORDS: criminalistics, product tampering, poisoning, toxicology. food and
drugs, terrorism



Attachment: Dangerous-Information.doc (73kB)
This file has been downloaded 1747 times

Polverone - 28-7-2011 at 13:35

I have seen the link to the thread in the killer's manifesto. It is not surprising, because that thread is one of the top Google hits for "purifying ammonium nitrate" and apparently his research was web-based. Imagine what dangerous things he could have learned if he went to a library instead of just the wifi hot spot at McDonald's!

The Energetic Materials section is not going to be hidden or retrospectively censored. Discussion of weapons (bombs, missiles, grenades, guns, mines) is still disallowed as it has been from the beginning. Discussion of pyrotechnic, propellant, and explosive materials is still allowed as it has been from the beginning. As I have written before, after several years of collective discussion it is unlikely that someone really has novel ideas or questions about (e.g.) sensitizing ammonium nitrate, manipulating organic peroxides, or the like. Endless rehashing of these topics should be reported to a moderator so it can be terminated with a curt "UTFSE." But sometimes discussion goes on for years without terminal degeneration: people are still writing new things about the electrolytic production of perchlorates, even though the process has been known for more than 100 years.

I confess that I read only a fraction of the material posted in Energetic Materials because I'm currently not equipped for or interested in pursuing that sort of chemistry myself. Quicksilver and I both agree that there needs to be more action taken against posts in that section that appear to be lazy and/or directed toward a quick thrill or malign use rather than any sort of real research or learning. I have noticed that people sometimes do things like post "this thread really needs help from a mod" in the thread itself instead of reporting the thread and associated concerns to a moderator. Invoking the name of a moderator doesn't draw his attention like Lord Voldemort!

[Edited on 7-28-2011 by Polverone]

Fusionfire - 28-7-2011 at 14:25

Quote: Originally posted by Rogeryermaw  
Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  


I despair sometimes. With all the knee jerk reactions at the rate we are going one day an engineering or science degree will need its applicants to be security-vetted :(

And no, a gun is not hard to make. Don't forget primitive guns were invented long before high explosives.


one day? you mean now! sure, you can get into college and get a degree, but these days, entering the workforce in a chemical or technology related position already requires criminal and background checks. i personally had to go through a rigorous screening process to install networked security equipment. granted, it was for the military, but i am not military personnel. it was nice in that it gained me a mid-level security clearance, but i had to dig into over 10 years of my past including everyone i had known, all jobs i had held, all residences i had lived at for more than a week and entire life of criminal history. it took me about 6 months to compile all that information.


I meant security vetted to even get a degree. I'm aware of the vetting process for some jobs ;)

Rogeryermaw - 28-7-2011 at 16:08

still, i think we are already getting close to that. criminal convictions can affect the acceptance and student financial aid processes, but this is true of any degree or major in which you may be interested...this is more akin to "the system" keeping people down in their place. sort of a "gods and clods" policy. but yeah, you are definitely right. attention like this can do our little community no good. maybe it is for all of us to be vigilant enough and keep a sharp eye out for activity like this so that it may be reported to the mods. also do not offer information and assistance on topics like this. the data is out there and can be found by anyone willing to do their own digging.

[Edited on 29-7-2011 by Rogeryermaw]

mr.crow - 31-7-2011 at 15:53

Great...

Report: Suspect in Norway attacks bought chemicals, tools on eBay

S.C. Wack - 31-7-2011 at 16:09

Yeah it was shocking to see CNN and ST sensationalizing this...I always wonder if it's chemostupidity they actually believe, sales, or agenda, in all chem hysteria. OMFG HE BOUGHT SULFUR ON EBAY. It will be nonsense like this that gets ebay to finally stop selling chems.

froot - 1-8-2011 at 07:17

The problem is not with the availability of materials that can be used to hurt people, the problem is with the desire to do so, and the means to pro-actively detect this mental condition before something like this happens. We are shocked and mourn the losses too.

KemiRockarFett - 1-8-2011 at 13:21

Webster Tarpleys analysis of the norway event:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WebsterTarpleyDotNet#p/u/0/DZAlO...

I have read the chem. part of his so called copy paste manifesto:

1) The Breiwik does not know a shit about chemistry, he thinks diesel is an oxidant and that boiling sulfiric acid results in NOx gasses.

2) He uses a tremendous effort to get aspirin for picrid acid synth, when he have acces to ANNM, kinepake, WHY ???

3) Hes so called blastingcap was made with the powder in shotgun shells and his own made DDNP. Is this NC powder very likely to go high order? maybee if compressed and initited with plenty of DDNP. (I dont think that an amateur like him got DDNP. )

4) The parts give fabricated impression.

5) Dino-media claims that the bomb was on 960 kg, sure baby yes! Even with a low VoD with this ammount of explosives the buildings around would have look like shit if any left. The explosive used were alumininium rich.

Something is seriusly wrong with this. Please read and judge for your self.

This terrorism will make everybody experimenting with chemicals on security police watsh lists. The states governments falsely belives that more laws and regulations could stop terrorism. The idea with terrorism is that its not possible to stop even if you regulate everything.




moolybdenum - 2-8-2011 at 00:46

Interesting posts here.

I'd say, as a new member, that I would hate to see any section restricted.

I am still wondering where I may contribute anything new, because as Polverone points out above, the UTFSE is sometimes underused.

So then I will continue to read, and learn from these threads, and others at other forums, as I have done for the last several years.

I am thankful that the threads are here to learn from, and one maniac with his feet stuck to the ground in one spot with his small mind that he thinks is so large, the "bad chemicals" in his brain making him mix up chemicals for a bad day, as planned, will not get in the way.

His mind was small in comparison to what is really important in life, and we don't have to think so hard before those things come to mind.

I am glad to see these places not locked or hidden, because I NEED to learn about things like CuO, MgAl, Al, KCLO4, many others, for many reasons:
for work, and possible future career paths
to fuel that hunger for knowledge that many of us have
to be safe when I am having fun with friends and family.

This place is not the only source, as is noted above, Libraries are great places, and there are other forums. At another forum I am a member of, there was at one time an essay requirement. If any more restrictions are to be in place, then something like this would be more useful imo than blocking only one more section.

Anyway, it is a non issue anymore.

Thankfully, this guy is behind bars, and thankfully there are smarter folks out there/here to debunk his work.



[Edited on 2-8-2011 by moolybdenum]

Be glad he wasn't into biololgy

The WiZard is In - 2-8-2011 at 16:26

http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/bw1103.pdf

Central Intelligence Agency Directorate Of Intelligence
The Darker Bioweapons Future

I could come up with even scarier refs., however.... I am
not planning on spending the my next few years in Cuba,
all expensives paid by my uncle.



djh
-----
One has to look out for
engineers—they begin
with sewing machines
and end up with the
atomic bomb.

Marcel Pagnol


Fusionfire - 3-8-2011 at 03:11

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
I could come up with even scarier refs.,


Nothing to be scared of in this world.

Losing all your status, power, prowess, friends, family, possessions, money happens to everyone, eventually.

The only reason why people fear calamity is because they have made idols out of what they can not keep.

Bot0nist - 3-8-2011 at 05:17

That sounds very enlightened Fusionfire.

gregxy - 3-8-2011 at 10:24

There are some aspects terrorism that seem almost strange:

1. Iraq did not have a WMD development program.
2. The USA did not create a fake one in Iraq to justify the invasion.
3. There have been so few terrorist attacks in the West. There must be millions of angry Iraquis and Afgans wanting to kill Americans. They blow each other to bits on a daily basis. How come nothing has happened in the US? Are they disorganized or are the CIA and FBI catching them and not telling anyone?

There seem to be two types of terrorists. Ones like Bin Laden that have an organization and the rest that seem to be "lone wolves". I imagine the FBI is pretty good a keeping tabs on the organizations. The lone wolves must be almost impossible to track. Fortunately there are relatively few of them and most seem to be too mentally unstable to be really effective, (Oslo and Oklahoma city being the exceptions).
Airplanes were easy targets, but are more difficult now.

Most terrorists seem to feel they are fighting a war opposed to killing random people. Since they must attack a specific group it makes them easier to catch and limits the methods that they can use.

I suspect that bio weapons are too sloppy for the terrorist organizations, and beyond the capabilities of the lone wolves to create.

The WiZard is In - 3-8-2011 at 11:21

Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
I suspect that bio weapons are too sloppy for the terrorist organizations, and
beyond the capabilities of the lone wolves to create.



Lego? No. Bioparts

http://partsregistry.org/Catalog



SIPRI
Policy Paper chemical and Biochemical Non-lethal Weapons
Political and Technical Aspects
Ronald G. Sutherland
November 1978

Gene synthesis technology has the capacity to make viruses (i.e. it is theoretically
possible for bioterrorists to order dangerous DNA sequences through the
post in order, for example, to make smallpox virus or other lethal pathogens). It is
unlikely that any terrorist group has the skills necessary at present but the technology
is becoming simpler. There clearly is a need for self-regulation and government
interaction as well as public scrutiny.

One of the greatest areas of concern in synthetic biology is the ability to create
‘synthetic life’ (i.e. life that can replicate itself). Scientists can now create replicas
of existing pathogens. It may also be possible to synthesize genotype-specific
weapons that could target animals or plants (many plants are produced as monocultures
today). The potential combination of synthetic biology with nanotechnology
promises even more challenges in the future. Hence there is a need to
develop policy to address such issues and to modify existing
international practices to prevent proliferation.


djh
----
My fear is some precious
15-year old is going to gene
splice the right/wrong thing
together, release it on the populace
and the last 3-inches of my Yahooo-hooo
is going to fall off!

hissingnoise - 3-8-2011 at 11:36

Quote:

My fear is some precious
15-year old is going to gene
splice the right/wrong thing
together, release it on the populace
and the last 3-inches of my Yahooo-hooo
is going to fall off!


Leaving you this way? :D


Mixell - 3-8-2011 at 11:52

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:

My fear is some precious
15-year old is going to gene
splice the right/wrong thing
together, release it on the populace
and the last 3-inches of my Yahooo-hooo
is going to fall off!


Leaving you this way? :D




That was uncalled for)

[Edited on 3-8-2011 by Mixell]

Mildronate - 3-8-2011 at 12:11

In my country maybe will not sell NH4NO3 more so easy... :(

hissingnoise - 3-8-2011 at 13:22

Farmers will always need NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> . . .


Fusionfire - 3-8-2011 at 13:43

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Farmers will always need NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> . . .



And HNO<sub>3</sub>. A farmer near me tells me his soil is very alkaline and he buys HNO<sub>3</sub> by the tanker as a soil pH regulator + fertiliser.

Fusionfire - 3-8-2011 at 13:44

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
That sounds very enlightened Fusionfire.


Why thank you :)

Mildronate - 3-8-2011 at 13:52

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Farmers will always need NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> . . .



Yes but in this moment i can just go to farm shop and buy NH4NO3, but after Oslo there is some shops in where i nee to subscribe tha i use it only as fertillizer.

The WiZard is In - 3-8-2011 at 14:46

Quote: Originally posted by Mildronate  
In my country maybe will not sell NH4NO3 more so easy... :(


Et tu?!

The U.S. Finally Starts Regulating Sales Of Ammonium Nitrate
Robert Johnson
Aug. 3, 2011, 6:05 AM

http://www.businessinsider.com/oklahoma-city-bombing-ammoniu... and a zilllion other
URL's

KemiRockarFett - 3-8-2011 at 16:13

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
Quote: Originally posted by Mildronate  
In my country maybe will not sell NH4NO3 more so easy... :(


Et tu?!

The U.S. Finally Starts Regulating Sales Of Ammonium Nitrate
Robert Johnson
Aug. 3, 2011, 6:05 AM

http://www.businessinsider.com/oklahoma-city-bombing-ammoniu... and a zilllion other
URL's


USA-SSR and EU-SSR oligarki controlled puppit regimes introduces more control, laws and regulations to increase its power, meanwhile sheeple think that they become safer and more protected by the new comunismagenda.

The WiZard is In - 3-8-2011 at 17:02

Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  
Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
Quote: Originally posted by Mildronate  
In my country maybe will not sell NH4NO3 more so easy... :(


Et tu?!

The U.S. Finally Starts Regulating Sales Of Ammonium Nitrate
Robert Johnson
Aug. 3, 2011, 6:05 AM

http://www.businessinsider.com/oklahoma-city-bombing-ammoniu... and a zilllion other
URL's


USA-SSR and EU-SSR oligarki controlled puppit regimes introduces more control, laws and regulations to increase its power, meanwhile sheeple think that they become safer and more protected by the new comunismagenda.



Your a bit late ...

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges (Tacitus AD 56-117) Annals)

When the republic is at its most corrupt, the laws are most numerous.

AndersHoveland - 3-8-2011 at 18:07

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
When the republic is at its most corrupt, the laws are most numerous.


Trying to legislate away problems will never result in real solutions. Firstly, the government must gain the respect of its citizens. Secondly, it must effectively enforce its laws. A sure sign that the government is losing control is when it starts instituting unusually harsh sentences, while at the same time, most of the lawbreakers go unpunished.

[Edited on 4-8-2011 by AndersHoveland]

Fusionfire - 3-8-2011 at 22:24

Interesting.

http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/releases/20110802-napolitano-ammoni...

Quote:
Ammonium nitrate is primarily used in fertilizers, first aid products, and regulated commercial explosives in support of the construction and mining industries. However, it has also been used as a main component in powerful explosives for attacks including the Oklahoma City bombing, the London bombings, and other acts of terrorism around the world.


AFAIK the July 7th London bombs were acetone peroxide based.

P.S. Expect your taxes to rise disproportionately to fund these new security measures + corruption.

jon - 4-8-2011 at 02:11

well as the ruling elite would say "never let a crisis go to waste"
and he played right into thier hands.
most of the catastrophies as of late have been engineered and the legislation penned before hand, ready to be enacted in times of distress.
the politicians were, and are pressured into signing for example the "patriot act" under the pretense that to not do so is treasonous, and unpatriotic.
if you examine the collapse of the world trade centers common sense would tell you they can't fall at terminal velocity without charges being placed at the base and the corner columns and there is footage (of the charges) and analytical evidence of traces of thermite being used to do this.
and then, there was the london bombings in 05.
it looks like this norweigian terrorist just made it all that much easier for them.
the patriot act has provisions taken almost verbatum from hitler's declaration of martial law in 1933 when he burned the reichstag.
if it worked in the past why change it? it's so fortunate for dictators that people's memories are so short.

hissingnoise - 4-8-2011 at 02:26

Quote:
if you examine the collapse of the world trade centers common sense would tell you they can't fall at terminal velocity without charges being placed at the base and the corner columns and there is footage (of the charges) and analytical evidence of traces of thermite being used to do this.

Sheeesh!
This boomerang-shit just keeps coming back, ad nauseam . . .


jon - 4-8-2011 at 02:30

boomerang or no the laws are still in force

textex - 4-8-2011 at 03:48

Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  


1) The Breiwik does not know a shit about chemistry, he thinks diesel is an oxidant and that boiling sulfiric acid results in NOx gasses.

2) He uses a tremendous effort to get aspirin for picrid acid synth, when he have acces to ANNM, kinepake, WHY ???

3) Hes so called blastingcap was made with the powder in shotgun shells and his own made DDNP. Is this NC powder very likely to go high order? maybee if compressed and initited with plenty of DDNP. (I dont think that an amateur like him got DDNP. )

4) The parts give fabricated impression.

5) Dino-media claims that the bomb was on 960 kg, sure baby yes! Even with a low VoD with this ammount of explosives the buildings around would have look like shit if any left. The explosive used were alumininium rich.

Something is seriusly wrong with this. Please read and judge for your self.



The guy wasnt stupid, and he had planned it for many years with very little interference. So after getting the chems, which is pretty easy, i do belive he managed to make quite a bit picric acid as boosters, and DDNP for the blasting caps.

Concering the main charge, i havent heard that much. From what the media says he had 150kg of aluminium, like 50+ liters of hobby-fuel which contained like 30% NM. So i guess its a bit hard to estimate how big the bomb was, but in his manifest i think he stated 800kgs?

But i do agree with you that the damages doesent look like a 800kg bomb. If it was that in the car, i guess alot of it didnt go high order.

jon - 4-8-2011 at 04:35

i get the impression too, that the manifesto may have been altered.
you can't believe everything the media tells you.

The WiZard is In - 4-8-2011 at 08:15

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:

My fear is some precious
15-year old is going to gene
splice the right/wrong thing
together, release it on the populace
and the last 3-inches of my Yahooo-hooo
is going to fall off!


Leaving you this way? :D




I can predict a lifetime of 1/4 night stands. Anyway steering
away from the Dismal Science (Sociology) to Biology
Chemistry......


Extracted from:—
LE Sever
ZINC DEFICIENCY IN HUMAN POPULATIONS
Zinc and Human Development: A Review.
Human Ecology, Vol. 3 No.1, 1975

[I cannot at the moment lay hands on my copy
of this journal or I would have scanned/OCR
the entire article.]

it is probably safe to say that much of the current interest in the
role of zinc in human nutrition is an outgrowth of studies of the
zinc deficiency syndrome. The syndrome is characterized by
markedly retarded growth and sexual development and has
been found in several Middle Eastern countries plus Morocco,
Tunisia, Portugal, and Panama. Interestingly, the syndrome
was first described by Lemann in 1910, in New Orleans, but its
etiology was not recognized at that time.

The Iranian men first observed were between the ages of 18
and 21 but looked like boys of 8-10 (Prasad et al., 1961). The
Egyptian patients, the first to be studied extensively, consisted
of males between the ages of 12-20 who also showed severe
growth retardation (Sandstead et al., 1967). These individuals
have been referred to as "nutritional dwarfs." Both the Iranians
and Egyptians subsisted on diets consisting mainly of
unleavened bread, plus other plant foods, which were low in
animal protein. Although the zinc content of their diets was
approximately the same as that of a typical North American
diet, these diets were high in phytate. As discussed earlier,
phytate binds zinc and makes it physiologically unavailable.

We can summarize briefly some of the manifestations of the
zinc deficiency syndrome as seen in both Iran and Egypt. Most
of the work has been done with males, although two women
have been studied in Iran (Halsted et al., 1972) and the
syndrome is by no means limited to males. Cultural prohibitions
have to a large degree limited the study of females. The
pattern of symptoms is characterized clinically by markedly
retarded growth and sexual development, pathologically by
epatosplenomegaly, delayed epiphyseal closure of the long
bones, and iron deficiency anemia, and biochemically by
subnormal concentrations of zinc in the blood, hair, urine, and
sweat and of iron and alkaline phosphatase in serum, together
with high plasma zinc turnover rates (Underwood, 1971).

Endocrine abnormalities in these patients, particularly growth
failure and hypogonadism, resembled those of idiopathic
hypopituitarism (Prasad and Oberleas, 1970). In addition,
decreased adrenocorticotropic hormone production, abnormal
oral glucose tolerance, and increased sensitivity to insulin were
frequently demonstrated (Sandstead et al., 1966). Some of
these endocrinological abnormalities have also been described
in zinc-deficient animals and may be characteristic of an
organism rendered zinc deficient during a period of expected
rapid growth (Prasad and Oberleas, 1970).

That this syndrome was attributable to zinc deficiency became
clear through studies of the effects of various diets on the
patients. In Egypt, a group of 22 of the dwarfs was treated with
different diets with markedly different results (Sandstead et al,
1967). The rate of growth was the greatest in patients who
received a hospital diet plus supplemental zinc, compared to
slower rates in those on the hospital diet supplemented with
iron and those on the diet alone. The diet used was high in
animal protein, containing egg, meat (beef or lamb), cheese,
milk, vegetables in season, and the traditional bread Sandstead
et al, 1967). On the hospital diet alone the average increment
in height was 1.8 inches, on the hospital diet plus iron 2.9
inches, and on the hospital diet plus zinc 5.0 inches (Sandstead
et al., 1967). There were also dramatic changes in the genital
development of the zinc-treated patients, while there was little
change in the patients who received the hospital diet with or
without iron. After zinc supplementation was started, pubic hair
appeared in all cases within 7-12 weeks. Genitalia size became
normal and secondary sexual characteristics developed within
12-24 weeks in all patients receiving zinc (Prasad and
Oberleas, 1970).

djh
----------
The "retarded sexual growth" condition is called (translated
from the Greek/Latin) "very small tail." However, in the original
Greek/Latin the term is more easily understood; "Micro Penis."
If you are old enough to worry about yours ... you are too old
for supplemental zink to help! Although, there may be some
truth in the legend; "Eat clams and live longer; eat oysters and
love longer." Oysters contain 900- 1 500 ppm of zinc, liver 40
-50, roast beef 45-90. It was a brave man who ate the first
oyster, or calm, bearded or otherwise!

djh
----
Byda a search of Google Pictures yields 170 000 hits for MP.




[Edited on 4-8-2011 by The WiZard is In]

quicksilver - 4-8-2011 at 08:22

To examine the tragedy on a realistic basis is very difficult because (as is a common agenda) the deeper facts are not made public until after a trial / conviction.
The public will not have the facts to the chemical elements of the bombing until many years after the fact. And in that - we may not know the specifics as it gets blurred by individuals reporting on the issue who know nothing about energetic materials. The need to stem the possibility of repeat offenses also has a great impact on that information's accuracy.

We know that ANFO is a blasting agent. It's purpose in industry is to move earth/rock, etc. It also needs to be well controlled to produce work effectively. Typically bore-holes are pattern designed with the earth-moving process of any shot. It's brisancy is simply too low to act in a manner than blast-wave detonations do when "dumb bombs" of higher VoD materials were a part of the Second World War. And even then it was of equal importance to design "containment elements" (casement) as it was to design chemical compounds.
ANFO shots for the redistribution of earth are not a "pile of material" but rather a very well thought out process wherein the blasting agent is contained. A large amount (not contained & directed) will very most often leave great amounts unexploded & therefore a much weaker response than originally conceived. Aluminized ANFO will very likely result in a higher temp of that portion that does explode. In practicality, the larger the un-contained amount, the less likely, the effectiveness of the shot. Prill material for blasting are very different than those for fertilizing in density & design. Fuel mix medium in a sheathed bore hole have a very different interaction than any free mix placed in a pile of FGAN prills.
For the perpetrator's lack of knowledge in these issues, I can only be grateful for his intellectual laziness.

The accused perpetrator was very disturbed & it's often been said that (in many cases) the line between emotional disturbance & stupidity can grow thin many times. Bombing is ugly, stupid (& on occasion, ineffective) by the very nature of non-discriminatory harm being inflicted. It could also be said that explosives used as a weapon may illustrate the height of cowardliness.

Those who have an interest in the science of energetic chemistry have a near duty to speak out against such things. Science in general has the same responsibility; as the corruption of it creates a climate of fear in the childish mentality that besets a youngster who burns himself on a hot oven: all ovens becomes objects of fear.
Yet because we live in a climate of [marketing] fear it's also imperative that any discussion be tempered with a reasonable expectation of what the listener may misunderstand.
Just as an interest in martial arts, lasers, Tesla Coils, or herpetology could be easily misunderstood, so can an interest in energetic science.

[Edited on 4-8-2011 by quicksilver]

AndersHoveland - 4-8-2011 at 10:25

Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  
Expect your taxes to rise disproportionately to fund these new security measures + corruption.


Increased security is generally not an effective way to prevent terrorism. Most of the ridiculous security measures taken are either overly expensive, or ineffective. The cost per life saved is several million dollars/euros. This money could be better spent saving the lives of those with life-threatening medical conditions who cannot afford quality medical care. And what about all the homeless dying on the streets from simple exposure to cold?

Almost all this increased security is a HUGE waste of money. With the huge debts our governments are getting themselves into, it would be better to let a few hundred people be killed by terrorists every year. For comparison, something as mundane as colon cancer kills 50000 Americans every year.

Consider this, the USA embassy in London abandoned a perfectly good, well-protected building to move into a virtual fortress- an ugly one at that. The cost of the new building?
1 BILLION !!!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/24/us-embassy-in-londo...

[Edited on 4-8-2011 by AndersHoveland]

Fusionfire - 4-8-2011 at 16:48

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  
Expect your taxes to rise disproportionately to fund these new security measures + corruption.


Increased security is generally not an effective way to prevent terrorism. Most of the ridiculous security measures taken are either overly expensive, or ineffective. The cost per life saved is several million dollars/euros. This money could be better spent saving the lives of those with life-threatening medical conditions who cannot afford quality medical care. And what about all the homeless dying on the streets from simple exposure to cold?

Almost all this increased security is a HUGE waste of money. With the huge debts our governments are getting themselves into, it would be better to let a few hundred people be killed by terrorists every year. For comparison, something as mundane as colon cancer kills 50000 Americans every year.

Consider this, the USA embassy in London abandoned a perfectly good, well-protected building to move into a virtual fortress- an ugly one at that. The cost of the new building?
1 BILLION !!!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/24/us-embassy-in-londo...

[Edited on 4-8-2011 by AndersHoveland]


I don't disagree with you. I made my statement in resigned disgust at the way things will go.

Even if you consider 9/11 and the two wars that followed, you can see that the Allies might (did we?) have won the military campaigns but lost the economic ($1 - 2 trillion for the USA; about one month of GDP!) and ideological wars.

Add on that all the additional expense on enhanced security, new laws, enforcement, etc.

No doubt justice must be sought following terrorist atrocities. The question is how that justice is meted out. The most cost effective manner, and indeed how Osama was executed, was by a surgical strike. Sending in the military to run a manhunt is a monumental waste of money.

KemiRockarFett - 8-8-2011 at 02:39

Quote: Originally posted by textex  
Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  


1) The Breiwik does not know a shit about chemistry, he thinks diesel is an oxidant and that boiling sulfiric acid results in NOx gasses.

2) He uses a tremendous effort to get aspirin for picrid acid synth, when he have acces to ANNM, kinepake, WHY ???

3) Hes so called blastingcap was made with the powder in shotgun shells and his own made DDNP. Is this NC powder very likely to go high order? maybee if compressed and initited with plenty of DDNP. (I dont think that an amateur like him got DDNP. )

4) The parts give fabricated impression.

5) Dino-media claims that the bomb was on 960 kg, sure baby yes! Even with a low VoD with this ammount of explosives the buildings around would have look like shit if any left. The explosive used were alumininium rich.

Something is seriusly wrong with this. Please read and judge for your self.



The guy wasnt stupid, and he had planned it for many years with very little interference. So after getting the chems, which is pretty easy, i do belive he managed to make quite a bit picric acid as boosters, and DDNP for the blasting caps.

Concering the main charge, i havent heard that much. From what the media says he had 150kg of aluminium, like 50+ liters of hobby-fuel which contained like 30% NM. So i guess its a bit hard to estimate how big the bomb was, but in his manifest i think he stated 800kgs?

But i do agree with you that the damages doesent look like a 800kg bomb. If it was that in the car, i guess alot of it didnt go high order.


Your statement is based on the assumption that the official version is correct. That is not critical thinking at all.

textex - 8-8-2011 at 06:40

[rquote]
Your statement is based on the assumption that the official version is correct. That is not critical thinking at all.[/rquote]

Hes been pretty accurate with alot of his manifest, so yes i do belive much of what is in it.

May i ask what you dont belive?

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by textex]

hissingnoise - 8-8-2011 at 07:52

Quote:
Hes been pretty accurate with alot of his manifest, so yes i do belive much of what is in it.

Despite your handle, you seem unaccustomed to writing in English, but poor spelling and usage aside, are you trying to say you believe the drivel in Breivik's 'manifesto'?




Mixell - 8-8-2011 at 08:21

May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]

KemiRockarFett - 8-8-2011 at 08:56

Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Aluminium did not go high order ? give me a break !

textex - 8-8-2011 at 08:57

Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Ofcourse, thats what i said. But you dont really need to be a chemical engineer to make a batch of picric acid and DDNP if you have the balls to take a reasonable chance.. I doubt all the 800kgs went high order, but seeing the all the windows that was shattered around the town here i know it wassnt a 100kg anfo bomb either.

And i dont wanna think about the casualties if breivik wassnt delayed and managed to sett it off a few hours earlier, or even worse, on a regular day.

Mixell - 8-8-2011 at 09:13

Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  
Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Aluminium did not go high order ? give me a break !


Well, it certainly does not cause the same damage as ammonium nitrate, which releases large amounts of gas.
The explosion itself may have even scattered the aluminium and prevented from it reacting to the fullest extent.

textex - 8-8-2011 at 09:23

Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  
Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Aluminium did not go high order ? give me a break !


Well, it certainly does not cause the same damage as ammonium nitrate, which releases large amounts of gas.
The explosion itself may have even scattered the aluminium and prevented from it reacting to the fullest extent.


Huh? A AN +AL +NM bomb is alot more powerful than just AN. Ofcourse its one thing if he overfuels it with aluminium, but a oxygen balanced composition is pretty powerful.

Mixell - 8-8-2011 at 09:27

Well, if the bomb was indeed 800kg, so something was probably not mixed or ignited properly.

KemiRockarFett - 8-8-2011 at 10:17

Quote: Originally posted by textex  
Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  
Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Aluminium did not go high order ? give me a break !


Well, it certainly does not cause the same damage as ammonium nitrate, which releases large amounts of gas.
The explosion itself may have even scattered the aluminium and prevented from it reacting to the fullest extent.


Huh? A AN +AL +NM bomb is alot more powerful than just AN. Ofcourse its one thing if he overfuels it with aluminium, but a oxygen balanced composition is pretty powerful.


Sir yes sir! Powerful is the right word, check AXT all info about that in the energtic part in this forum.
Al in itself gives a thermobaric effect if in exess otherwise it will only reacting with released H2O, N2, CO2 from the detonation of the explosive increasing the output energy.
Talk about AN and a lot of gasses is not relevant as its the energy [J] OUT and POWER [J/s] that matters.

textex - 9-8-2011 at 02:11

The chemfobia is bigger than ever. The newspapers here now write about some eu-directive which may restrict sulfuric acid, nitromethane etc to the point where you need a permit from the police to aquire it. :(

Fusionfire - 9-8-2011 at 02:27

Like guns which are illegal to own without a license in many countries, chemicals may soon go the way of black markets.

One thing history should teach us, is that where there is demand and money, there will always be supply (regardless of the laws).

AndersHoveland - 9-8-2011 at 11:58

With all the increasing EU-directives, should we not be concerned about the over centralisation of power? After all, the EU is not a democratic institution, at least not in the direct sense. The EU governing bodies almost seem intent on crushing any notions of national identity, and have resorted to subtle tactics to further their ends.

KemiRockarFett - 9-8-2011 at 14:08

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
With all the increasing EU-directives, should we not be concerned about the over centralisation of power? After all, the EU is not a democratic institution, at least not in the direct sense. The EU governing bodies almost seem intent on crushing any notions of national identity, and have resorted to subtle tactics to further their ends.


Glad to hear that you are awake to the banksters overtaking of the EU and US , BUT what to do about it? Nothing.

In 10 years it will be possible to buy food for the avarage people not so much else, I think we will se a lot of more terror and new regulations as answer from the governments to "protect" us.


Mother Nature the world's best bioterrorist

The WiZard is In - 16-8-2011 at 16:11

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  

djh
----
My fear is some precious
15-year old is going to gene
splice the right/wrong thing
together, release it on the populace
and the last 3-inches of my Yahooo-hooo
is going to fall off!



BACILLUS CEREUS, ANTHRAX-LIKE INFECTION - USA (02): (TEXAS),
DISCUSSION
***********************************************************************
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

Date: Mon 15 Aug 2011
From: Larry Lutwick, ProMED-mail Bacterial Disease Moderator
<lutwick@promedmail.org>

The online publication in the Archives of Pathology and Laboratory
Medicine (as described in PRO/AH> Bacillus cereus, anthrax-like
infection - USA: (TX) publication 20110815.2470) detailed the genetic
analysis of a strain of _Bacillus cereus_ containing a plasmid quite
similar to the pXO1 plasmid of _B. anthracis_ which caused a rapidly
progressive, fatal, inhalation anthrax-like illness. It is not stated
in the report when the case occurred. The victim resided in Texas and
was a welder. Cases like the described case have occurred before, but
what made the report unique was the rapid genome sequencing to define
the strain, concluding that bioterrorism was not an issue.

If the bacterium causing the current Minnesota case has been
identified as _B. anthracis_, then it is not likely that the case
represents a _B. cereus_ case, since the 2 species can be reasonably
easily differentiated by standard microbiological testing.

A 2004 PNAS report (1) describes _B. cereus_ G9241, one of several
past isolates of the organism, causing unusually severe lung disease
and which found, as in the above publication, that it was very similar
to _B. anthracis_. G9241 had been isolated from a Louisiana welder in
1994. In 1996, 2 additional cases in Texas metal workers were reported
as well as an environmental isolate (2). One of the isolates was
clinically indistinguishable from the Louisiana case. The clinical
isolates possessed a capsule, but it was not the anthrax
poly-D-glutamic acid capsule. The Texas cases were described in
clinical form in 2007 (3). Further evaluation of the G9241 strain,
interestingly, found that despite producing its virulence factors, the
strain behaved more like the attenuated toxigenic nonencapsulated
Sterne strain in rabbits and mice (4). With these cases seemingly
localized to Texas and Louisiana in the USA, an additional isolate was
found from a cluster of anthrax-like deaths that occurred in Cote
d'Ivoire among wild chimpanzees in 2001 and 2002 (5). This strain had
the typical _B. cereus_ chromosomal background with the typical
anthrax virulence plasmids. Importantly, the isolate did not contain
the 4 _B. anthracis_-specific prophage regions and also did not have
the classical nonsense mutation in the regulator gene P1cR. The highly
monophyletic anthrax clade all contain these features (6).

These isolates seem, once again, to nominate Mother Nature as our
world's best bioterrorist.
It is, however, not at all clear that the
organism involved in the current Minnesota case is a _B. cereus_
rather than a _B. anthracis_. Hopefully, more information will surface
regarding the Minnesota isolate and whether the individual was also an
iron worker, as were the Texas and Louisiana cases.

References:
1. Hoffmaster AR, Ravel J, Rasko DA, et al: Identification of anthrax
toxin genes in a _Bacillus cereus_ associated with an illness
resembling inhalation anthrax. PNAS 2004;101: 8449-8454.
2. Hoffmaster AR, Hill KK, Gee JE, et al: Characterization of
_Bacillus cereus_ isolates associated with fatal pneumonias: strains
are closely related to _Bacillus anthracis_ and harbor _B. anthracis_
virulence genes. J Clin Microbiol 2006;44: 3352-3360.
3. Avashia SB, Riggins WS, Lindley C, et al: Fatal pneumonia among
metalworkers due to inhalation exposure to _Bacillus cereus_
containing _Bacillus anthracis_ toxin genes. Clin Infect Dis. 2007;44:
414-416.
4. Wilson MK, Vergis JM, Alem F, et al: _Bacillus cereus_ G9241 makes
anthrax toxin and capsule like highly virulent _B. anthracis_ Ames but
behaves like attenuated toxigenic nonencapsulated _B. anthracis_
Sterne in rabbits and mice. Infect Immun. 2011;79: 3012-3019.
5. Klee SR, Brzuszkiewicz EB, Natterman H, et al: The genome of a
_Bacillus_ isolate causing anthrax in chimpanzees combines chromosomal
properties of _B. cereus_ with _B. anthracis_ virulence plasmids. PLoS
ONE 5(7):e10986. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0010986.
6. Kolsto A-B, Tourasse NJ, Okstad OA: What sets _Bacillus anthracis_
apart from other _Bacillus_ species? Annu Rev Microbiol 2009;63:
451-476.

--
Communicated by:
ProMED-mail <promed@promedmail.org>

[see also:
Bacillus cereus, anthrax-like infection - USA: (TX) publication
20110815.2470
Anthrax - USA (04): (MN) alert 20110812.2441
Anthrax - USA (03): (MN) 20110811.2437
Anthrax - USA (02): (MN) 20110810.2431]
2005
----
Bacillus cereus skin infections, 2004 - USA (GA) 20051209.3546
1998
----
Bacillus cereus endophthalmitis - Italy (02) 19980507.0892
Bacillus cereus endophthalmitis - Italy 19980507.0884]
.................................................ll/msp/mpp
*##########################################################*
************************************************************
ProMED-mail makes every effort to verify the reports that
are posted, but the accuracy and completeness of the
information, and of any statements or opinions based
thereon, are not guaranteed. The reader assumes all risks in
using information posted or archived by ProMED-mail. ISID
and its associated service providers shall not be held
responsible for errors or omissions or held liable for any
damages incurred as a result of use or reliance upon posted
or archived material.
************************************************************
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IrC - 16-8-2011 at 17:48

Either sloppy science or sloppy reporting by them. Two rare cases. Both welding. Clear connection. If it's that rare what are the odds both weld? OK, is it arc or gas? Or Tig, etc.? What is common. Did they both breathe Argon from the same source? Or was it Oxygen or Acetylene? If gas for both did they actually think of the question I just mentioned and if so did they trace the gasses back and test the source? I focus on gas because the disease was inhaled in both cases correct?

If arc did they both weld galvanized? Was zinc and/or compounds inhaled needed for critical growth medium? More likely gas. After all in both the lungs were the target. Simply because you start gas, then light. During this time you breathe some of the gas in. If so did they bother to trace the gas to a single supplier? What is going on in the production of the gas? Please tell me they actually did better investigative science than the reporter did reporting.

The WiZard is In - 16-8-2011 at 18:20

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
Either sloppy science or sloppy reporting by them. Two rare cases.


Good grief.

it was very similar to _B. anthracis_. G9241 had been isolated from a Louisiana welder in 1994.

If they isolated B. anthracis......!

By da having made the mistake of cutting a galvanized
steel grating with an oxy-acetylene torch... I can confidently
state that anyone who has ever had Zink fume fever -
metal workers ague
knows the symptoms and doesn't make the same mistake 2X.

This wasn't published in the National Inquirer! The mod's
at ProMed have their medical shit wired.

IrC - 16-8-2011 at 23:16

I assumed we both use English as a first language. Nowhere did I say they were confusing a metal fume fever. In the 70's I overhead arc welded galvanized conduit to steel I beams at 80 amps with a 5/32 rod for 18 hours a day. I am aware of this illness from experience. What I was going after was they did not go into the common factors for the two anthrax like cases and derive the source. As I said what are the odds both were welders and if so where did the two get this rare spore. If gas welding both would temporarily breathe gasses from their torches in the seconds before lighting them, assuming spores if in one of the tanks could not survive the flame after they were lit. Since there are few major suppliers such as BOC could the source of one of the gasses be identical and why did the medical people fail to mention this connection.

textex - 20-9-2011 at 02:45

Thought i'd just give you an update on this. The counter terrorism police here got loads of criticism for not checking up the terrorist when he appeared on a list of buyers from some eastern european chemical retailers. The list was obtained from a joint operation involving Interpol and custom agencies around the world, and after the operation Norwegian LE had a list with around 60 names on it, one which was Anders Breivik, having bought around 600grams of NaNO3.

Its weird that none with knowledge has stood up and explained that he woulda been able to aquire the NO3 he needed for his nitration from other sources anyways. Nevertheless the counter terrorism agency here are in the process of interviewing everyone on that list now. Thankfully they dont seem to care that mutch about the the breach of some storage regulations codes etc, that i guess most hobby chemist breach. But i guess that especially the pyro scene here will be pretty inactive the next years. They have arrested two hobby pyro/HE guys and locked them up in full isolation for atleast 4 weeks.

Dunno if it has anything with the terrorism, but our chemistry teacher just got a letter from the people that arrange the exams, telling him that no chemicals were allowed for the practical oral exam :s

And i thought the US got crazy after 911..


franklyn - 13-2-2012 at 23:46

The association of the practice of amateur energetic chemistry with the use
of bombs and explosives for arson and killing is a defamatory stigma and an
unfair characterization , experimenters are not engaged in warfare.
How easy would it be for a restaurant worker to poison people , does this
suggest that commercial food preparation is inherently a danger to the public ?

The history of the car bomb in the twentieth century and into the present day,
is chronicled by the principle parties that used them and had to contend with
this weapon of unconventional warfare. The conclusion of this analysis is that
by deploying such methods the advantage is entirely with the perpetrators to
obtain their ends. It runs one hour and forty minutes with commercials.

http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/car_bomb

.

AndersHoveland - 27-2-2012 at 12:19

Google, the largest and most commonly used internet search provider, has secretly begun CENSORING its searches!
http://www.politicalforum.com/forum-help-feedback-etc/235274...

Bot0nist - 27-2-2012 at 12:26

That's upsetting. I thought Google was a champion of the light, and what not. Wfjat's the tie to the Oslo incident?

bbartlog - 27-2-2012 at 17:05

Not too surprised. For a while if you would type 'pat bu' into a google search box, the suggested completions for this would start with 'pat burrell' and nowhere contain 'pat buchanan', even though an actual search on pat buchanan would return an order of magnitude more hits. They fixed it after some complaining, but they are clearly conscious of their ability to hide things for political reasons, and willing to use it.

Vogelzang - 19-1-2013 at 09:21


Reagan Warned Us About Obama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3hY1eagq88


Vogelzang - 20-1-2013 at 04:02

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Google, the largest and most commonly used internet search provider, has secretly begun CENSORING its searches!
http://www.politicalforum.com/forum-help-feedback-etc/235274...


Thanks for the link. Excellent forum. :cool: