Sciencemadness Discussion Board

HMTD from di ammonium phosphate

Vikascoder - 7-2-2012 at 03:05

Somewhere on google i read that HMTD can be prepared from formaline and ammonium sulphate and hydrogen peroxide . I was thinking HMTD can also be prepared from diammonium phosphate because it will also lead to acidic medium by making phosphoric acid

Pulverulescent - 7-2-2012 at 03:44

If you've bothered reading Davis' book you'll know the correct synthesis uses H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub>, hexamine and citric acid!
You'll also know that the compound attacks the common metals to form salts which are extremely sensitive to shock and to friction!
HMTD is a triperoxide just as is TATP and fucking around with half-baked notions for alternative routes is begging for trouble!
And your gung-ho k3wl attitude makes me think you're quite young, so how old are you, anyway?

P

Vikascoder - 7-2-2012 at 04:12

The information you gave i know this already just the of citric acid i got is from lemon . I Have hexamine sulphuric acid and h2o2 i want to make from it can it be prepared from it and i think making from the alternatives is no trouble if you are very very cautious. would you mind telling me the process by di ammonium phosphate and i am enough mature so dont worry dear .

Pulverulescent - 7-2-2012 at 04:24

Quote:
. . . i am enough mature so dont worry dear .

No darling, I won't! (:D)
You're so very well aware of what you're doing, any advice is totally superfluous!
Ten fingers is a few too many anyway, and one eye should be sufficient for most people?
If you lose both, you can always fall back on guide-dogs and white sticks . . . (:o)

P

watson.fawkes - 7-2-2012 at 04:28

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
i am enough mature so dont worry dear .
You desperately need to read the following essay and then exercise a modicum of introspection: The Anosognosic’s Dilemma.

ScienceSquirrel - 7-2-2012 at 04:41

The only sane way to make anything like HMTD is to obtain pure reagents and follow a published preparation to the letter on a very small scale.
The preparation of HMTD is hazardous and may be illegal in your jurisdiction.

weiming1998 - 7-2-2012 at 05:27

Why make more organic peroxides? Why? They don't do anything apart from exploding, and you cannot use it to power a rocket because it will simply blow the rocket apart instead of launching it.

Vikascoder - 7-2-2012 at 07:38

Weiming 1998 why are you getting angry? This time i am not making HMTD but i just want to know whether it can be prepared by this process or not . I want to get the knowledge may be in future after 1 or 2 years i will make it . When it comes to rocket i have made a very good rocket motor which uses acetone peroxide as a fuel and i told previously also i have found a stabilising agent for TATP

Pulverulescent - 7-2-2012 at 08:23

Citric acid is also known as 'sour salt' in baking and cooking circles!
The name is well deserved as it has a serious tang to it.
Dipping your chewing-gum into it gives that chewing experience a whole new added dimension . . .
Just try to be more careful than the unfortunate Ukrainian student who just happened to forget what else he had laying around?

P

Vikascoder - 7-2-2012 at 08:49

Ok i will just try with citric acid but for gaining knowledge purpose i want to know if anyone has prepared it buy diammonium phosphate

Vikascoder - 7-2-2012 at 08:52

Also i want to know like in acetone peroxide temperature plays a very important role for dimeric or trimeric form is that so with HMTD

madscientist - 7-2-2012 at 09:06

Acetone peroxide is not "safe" when made at low temperatures. No organic peroxide is safe, period. You can do everything right and have them go off for literally no apparent reason.

Adas - 7-2-2012 at 09:39

In fact, there are some "safe" organic peroxides, if you don't look at the toxicity.

I've heard that hexafluoro dimethyl peroxide is a very stable organic peroxide and is a gas, but I expect it to be extremely toxic. Electron-accepting groups are known to stabilise the peroxide bond. I am not sure about -NO2 groups, though.

madscientist - 7-2-2012 at 11:11

I'm referring to anything with explosive capacity... you cannot trust that peroxide bond to remain stable at STP, and HMTD, AP, MEKP, etc. can and have gone off randomly. Obviously general use reagents like mCPBA are going to be safe to handle - if that peroxide bond breaks, the reaction (at STP) isn't exothermic enough to propagate.

Adas - 7-2-2012 at 14:44

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
also i have found a stabilising agent for TATP


Hmm... What is it? I think you are kidding us.

Vikascoder - 7-2-2012 at 15:31

No i am not kidding with you its true after many years of research i have found a way to stabilise it . Sorry for the inconvenience i cannot tell that process now. I am thinking that i may get patent for it after that i will tell you definately

madscientist - 7-2-2012 at 15:33

The only way to "stabilize" it is to dilute it with something inert to the point that it is no longer explosive.

Pulverulescent - 7-2-2012 at 16:19

Quote:
Sorry for the inconvenience i cannot tell that process now. I am thinking that i may get patent for it after that i will tell you definately

So now we're a bunch of morons, eh, whatsyerfuckingnameagain? (:P)(:D)(:o)

P

weiming1998 - 8-2-2012 at 01:20

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
Weiming 1998 why are you getting angry? This time i am not making HMTD but i just want to know whether it can be prepared by this process or not . I want to get the knowledge may be in future after 1 or 2 years i will make it . When it comes to rocket i have made a very good rocket motor which uses acetone peroxide as a fuel and i told previously also i have found a stabilising agent for TATP


Acetone peroxide as a fuel=the rocket exploding. Even if you found a way to stabilize it, it will still explode. It doesn't oxidize, it decomposes. If you can stabilize it so that it doesn't blow up your rocket, your rocket won't launch at all because there is no chain reaction of decomposing acetone peroxide.

If you are really interested in rockets, try KNO3+sugar. Even a small pile of that (1 gram), when lit, produces a lot of energy, enough to launch your rocket high, plus the smoke pressure pushes it up too. If your rocket's body is made of metal, it wouldn't blow it apart. You could try new rocket fuels and even invent new ones, but have you ever seen any rocket-launching professionals for NASA use primary explosives to do the job?

Pulverulescent - 8-2-2012 at 01:46

Look! Vikascoder is just another of those guys who likes posting "terminological 'inexactitudes'", the transparency of which seems to escape him, ─ on things he has just about zero experience of! (:D)

P

Vikascoder - 8-2-2012 at 02:06

Ok forgot all things if you dont believe on me its ok . I dont care and i dont mind anything what so ever you think about me its just fine you must be having bad views about me . But when i will be completely successful no one will ever think about my posts just of my success . So your wish what you comment on me . So continue the topic HMTD from di ammonium phosphate can be prepared or not

Pulverulescent - 8-2-2012 at 04:12

Vikas, I'm just an asshole who takes the piss ─ don't take anything I say seriously!
I'm thickskinned as well as being just plain thick!
But some souls here are just a tad, er, sensitive . . .
And I've been called all sorts of names here over the years and it bothers me not one whit!
Sticks 'n' stones . . . (:D)

P

Vikascoder - 10-2-2012 at 01:55

Ok pulverulescent i will not take your post seriously but anyone will tell me whether HMTD can be prepared from di ammonium phosphate or not or tell me the way to make ammonium hydroxide from it

weiming1998 - 10-2-2012 at 02:06

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
Ok pulverulescent i will not take your post seriously but anyone will tell me whether HMTD can be prepared from di ammonium phosphate or not or tell me the way to make ammonium hydroxide from it


I don't dabble in the production of primary explosives, so I can't help you with that. But I can help you with the production of ammonium hydroxide from diammonium phosphate. First, you will need some NaOH. Make a saturated solution of NaOH and diammonium phosphate. Add slightly more sodium hydroxide though, to neutralize the sodium dihydrogen phosphate fromed to sodium monohydrogen phosphate or trisodium phosphate. Then freeze your solution and filter. There's your ammonium hydroxide with a small amount of sodium hydroxide/sodium phosphates. If you want really pure ammonium hydroxide, then distil the solution. You will end up with a more concentrated, pure ammonium hydroxide/water. But be very careful distilling ammonia. The gas is poisonous.

Vikascoder - 10-2-2012 at 04:48

What is the concentration of ammonium hydroxide made by this process

Vikascoder - 10-2-2012 at 04:52

What is the concentration of ammonium hydroxide before distilling

Vikascoder - 10-2-2012 at 04:54

If you take 1 litre of lemon juice and boil it until all the water evaporates will citric acid be formed in solid form

woelen - 10-2-2012 at 05:15

No, lemon juice contains a lot of other compounds and boiling down this liquid yields a lot of crap, but no pure citric acid. You most likely need to filter the lemon juice such that you obtain a clear liquid and then should allow to evaporate slowly. Maybe you then get fairly pure crystals of citric acid.

But why take this cumbersome route to this acid. It can be purchased OTC in food stores, especially in stores for selling all kinds of (exotic) spices. The citric acid can be purchased in such stores in crystalline form for just a few euros (dollars) per 100 gram.

weiming1998 - 10-2-2012 at 05:43

About 20-30% NH3(ag). It would be slightly more concentrated if you distil, then chill. Whatever you do, concentrated ammonia solution is corrosive, and stinks very, very badly. Also, it is poisonous.

Vikascoder - 10-2-2012 at 06:47

I live in a village but it is not developed and here only table salt is available i asked for sour salt to shopkeeper he replied they are hearing this name first time. for what dishes or purposes citric acid is used in cooking. Tell as much you can about citric acid where to buy

Bot0nist - 10-2-2012 at 07:14

It is used for candy making and food preservation. Its at my store in the canning section. So, your having a hard time getting acetone, citric acid. Do up already have the hexamine and peroxide. What is with your holy grail search for organic peroxides? And dont start telling me they are for rocket propellants. I bet you couldn't assemble and launch a chlorate/sugar rocket, let alone a TCAP or HTMD rocket, without it failing.

If you ever do manage to synthesize some organic peroxides, which I doubt, you will be disappointed. They are useless for all but the most k3wl endeavors.

[Edited on 10-2-2012 by Bot0nist]

weiming1998 - 10-2-2012 at 07:24

Here is some advice for making citric acid:
1, Get a huge amount of lemon Juice (1 litre)
2, Filter until the liquid is devoid of any non-soluble substances.
3, Boil it down to a smaller size, then filter again.
4, Apply a calcium acetate solution to it.
5, Filter. You should get a precipate of calcium citrate
6, Place the calcium citrate in a flask and apply sulfuric acid (while cooling the solution)
7, In the case of sulfuric acid, carefully pour the unreacted acid away (if concentrated), then dissolve the powder formed in water (if you have dilute sulfuric acid, skip to next step)
8, Filter, then evaporate the solution down. You get a powder that is citric acid.
Note: Use acids that will form insoluble calcium salts only, like sulfuric or oxalic acid. Do not use hydrochloric acid, as it will form soluble CaCl2 that is difficult to get rid of
There, you have (fairly) pure citric acid from lemon juice!

Vikascoder - 10-2-2012 at 20:56

Bot0nist i have prepared hexamine from formaline and ammonium hydroxide i have 6% 20 vol hydrogen peroxide which i buyed from medical store it contains a stabilising agent . I have now 50ml acetone which i made from isopropanol i have prepared acetone peroxide before by using 75 ml h2o2 , 25 ml acetone 98% and 10 ml 8% hcl i let it at 5'c for 10 hours then at 0'c for 20 and then at 5'c for next 10 hours yield was very low only 1 gram acetone peroxide is there any way to increase the yield using the same concentration of material .

Vikascoder - 10-2-2012 at 21:04

Weiming 1998 thanks for telling me the process i read this process in the another thread that citric acid burnt at 70' c for this process of preparing citric acid sulfuric acid of 30% concentration will work as dilute acid

weiming1998 - 11-2-2012 at 00:01

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
Weiming 1998 thanks for telling me the process i read this process in the another thread that citric acid burnt at 70' c for this process of preparing citric acid sulfuric acid of 30% concentration will work as dilute acid


Only very concentrated (80<;) sulfuric acid has a strong enough dehydrating property to dehydrate the sugar, or citric acid. But, just to be careful, use 50% acid or less. If you only have concentrated acid, dilute by pouring the acid into a set amount of water (not reverse!) As for a minimum amount, any concentration larger than probably 1% will work, but you will need a lot more acid (in terms of volume) if you use, say 5% sulfuric acid.

Also, don't forget to put the solution in a low temperature (10> degrees celsius), just to be sure that the citric acid won't dehydrate.

[Edited on 11-2-2012 by weiming1998]

Vikascoder - 11-2-2012 at 01:43

How much calcium acetate is to be used. I have read in one of the thread on sciencemadness that HMTD can also be prepared by mixing hexamine in acetic acid that is vinegar and yield is good only in one hour what are your views on this process

weiming1998 - 11-2-2012 at 03:14

Acetic acid (dilute solution= vinegar) is not the same thing as calcium acetate! But you can make it by mixing that in sulfuric acid (note how many times I said that something requires sulfuric acid). As I don't have sulfuric acid right now, I have tried to make glacial acetic acid with sodium bisulfate+acetate. The problem is, the acid keeps on vaporizing the moment it is formed, and as I don't have a distillation setup, I cannot collect the vapours.

Anyway, vinegar should be easy enough to come across, but hexamine should be very difficult to come across for you. You might try finding it in stove fuel tablets ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexamine_fuel_tablet )

weiming1998 - 11-2-2012 at 03:18

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
Bot0nist i have prepared hexamine from formaline and ammonium hydroxide i have 6% 20 vol hydrogen peroxide which i buyed from medical store it contains a stabilising agent . I have now 50ml acetone which i made from isopropanol i have prepared acetone peroxide before by using 75 ml h2o2 , 25 ml acetone 98% and 10 ml 8% hcl i let it at 5'c for 10 hours then at 0'c for 20 and then at 5'c for next 10 hours yield was very low only 1 gram acetone peroxide is there any way to increase the yield using the same concentration of material .


Using that much acetone, HCl and hydrogen peroxide is extremely dangerous. If it all explodes, then you will be seriously injured. Experiments with acetone peroxide should be done in milligram amounts.

Vikascoder - 11-2-2012 at 22:24

Weiming 1998 i wrote that i made hexamine from formaline and ammonia and i am asking that HMTD can be prepared by vinegar or sulphuric acid instead of citric acid because in one of the thread i read that a person prepared HMTD by mixing hexamine in vinegar and than adding h2o2 and the whole process completed in 1 hour so i am asking if this can be done or not

weiming1998 - 11-2-2012 at 23:19

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
Weiming 1998 i wrote that i made hexamine from formaline and ammonia and i am asking that HMTD can be prepared by vinegar or sulphuric acid instead of citric acid because in one of the thread i read that a person prepared HMTD by mixing hexamine in vinegar and than adding h2o2 and the whole process completed in 1 hour so i am asking if this can be done or not


This said that you were making milligrams< amount of acetone peroxide
"i have prepared acetone peroxide before by using 75 ml h2o2 , 25 ml acetone 98% and 10 ml 8% hcl i let it at 5'c for 10 hours then at 0'c for 20 and then at 5'c for next 10 hours yield was very low only 1 gram acetone peroxide is there any way to increase the yield using the same concentration of material ."

So I was talking about that.

Vikascoder - 12-2-2012 at 04:44

Ok fine i got what were you talking about now tell that is HMTD can be prepared with vinegar

weiming1998 - 12-2-2012 at 05:36

I don't even know what HTMD stands for... All the internet says is that it is an explosive and an organic peroxide.

Ok, now I have find out what it stands for. It is hexamethylene triperoxide diamine. According to Wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexamethylene_triperoxide_diami...), the reaction between hexamine and H2O2 can also be catalyzed by dilute sulfuric acid. No, I do not think vinegar will work, but you'd have to ask someone else for that, I don't have a clue.

Vikascoder - 12-2-2012 at 05:47

Ok doesnt matter weiming 1998 you helped me a lot . Thanks for your help . So is there anyone who has prepared HMTD from di ammonium phosphate . Or from vinegar or sulphuric acid.

Vikascoder - 12-2-2012 at 05:49

Ok doesnt matter weiming 1998 you helped me a lot . Thanks for your help . So is there anyone who has prepared HMTD from di ammonium phosphate . Or from vinegar or sulphuric acid.

Vikascoder - 11-3-2012 at 03:58

can sodium hydroxide be substituted by calcium hydroxide

weiming1998 - 11-3-2012 at 04:01

What do you mean by that? In which reaction?

Vikascoder - 11-3-2012 at 04:26

i meant for making ammonium hydroxide from di ammonium phosphate can sodium hydroxide be substituted by calcium hydroxide

weiming1998 - 11-3-2012 at 04:52

Yes it can. I replied to your U2U. Look there for more details.

[Edited on 11-3-2012 by weiming1998]

Vikascoder - 11-3-2012 at 23:34

Ya i got your u2u and got the information thanks

Vikascoder - 12-3-2012 at 21:00

Finally i have made HMTD from di ammonium phosphate by using it in to prepare ammonium sulphate than the way i mentioned in my first post . Yield is low but satisfying

Vikascoder - 12-3-2012 at 21:01

Finally i have made HMTD from di ammonium phosphate by using it in to prepare ammonium sulphate than the way i mentioned in my first post . Yield is low but satisfying