Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Oh yeah, no reason to be paranoid...

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albqbrian - 16-3-2012 at 10:44

Here's a scary, scary article detailing the NSA's latest efforts to basically record, analyze, and decrypt pretty much everything :o

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/al...

One line in the article pretty well summed it up:

"We're about that far (fingers nearly touching) from a turnkey totalitarian society. This from the major source for the article; a former, long-term NSA employee.

[Edited on 16-3-2012 by albqbrian]

Morgan - 16-3-2012 at 11:14

According to Villasenor, “For the first time ever, it will become technologically and financially feasible for authoritarian governments to record nearly everything that is said or done within their borders--every phone conversation, electronic message, social media interaction, the movements of nearly every person and vehicle, and video from every street corner.”
http://www.fastcompany.com/1802688/pew-rising-cell-phone-wor...

entropy51 - 16-3-2012 at 11:25

I hope no one is surprised by this. It has been going on for years. There have been court cases over the government's use of a splitter in the AT & T San Francisco hub which captured all of the internet traffic passing through.
Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
You did know that the government scoops up all the internet traffic and filters out the nuggets of information that serves its purposes, didn't you?

http://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying

Rosco Bodine - 16-3-2012 at 14:26

Wonder what kind of bandwidth they have .......
(all of it)

Vogelzang - 16-3-2012 at 15:20

How reliable is the data storage?


http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/file-not-found-the-re...




http://www.fredstates.com/

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/racist-don-t-nig-anti-o...

Magpie - 16-3-2012 at 15:23

I find this statement particularly disturbing:

“They violated the Constitution setting it up,” he says bluntly. “But they didn’t care. They were going to do it anyway, and they were going to crucify anyone who stood in the way.

[Edited on 16-3-2012 by Magpie]

AndersHoveland - 16-3-2012 at 15:30

Quote: Originally posted by albqbrian  
article detailing the NSA's latest efforts to basically record, analyze, and decrypt pretty much everything :o

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/al...

"We're about that far (fingers nearly touching) from a turnkey totalitarian society. This from the major source for the article; a former, long-term NSA employee.


2 Billion dollars to construct the building. How much are all the employees and armed guards going to cost? At a time when many Americans are struggling to pay rent in overcrowded substandard apartments, the government is wasting huge quantities of resources. Is it even feasible to actually carefully analyse all the information on the internet? This is just another big waste of money. I thought the US Treasury already has an enormous debt burden.

anotheronebitesthedust - 16-3-2012 at 16:47

If you pay taxes to your government, you're a part of the problem.

Polverone - 16-3-2012 at 16:50

The most surprising and least verifiable claim in the article is that the NSA made a major breakthrough in defeating common cryptosystems sometime in the last several years. It is unclear if the claim is supposed to be about the public-key part, e.g. integer factorization for attacking RSA, or the symmetric key algorithms like AES that are hybridized with public keys.

One thing you can be sure of: analyzing encrypted communication always takes more effort than analyzing unencrypted communication. If you want to throw a little sand in the gears of the surveillance machine, use encrypted communications when available. Pick https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/ instead of http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/. The EFF's HTTPS Everywhere project is a good addition to your privacy if you use Firefox or Chrome. This also increases your protection against more mundane snooping, e.g. people spying on wifi traffic at hotels and airports.

Magpie - 16-3-2012 at 17:12

Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
...big brother is pretty much like a retarded parrot in a cage.


I have the sickening feeling that this retarded parrot in the form of Bluffdale/Stellar Wind is going to cause a lot of misery to a lot of innocent people.

gregxy - 16-3-2012 at 17:14

I'm more annoyed by the waste of money that this thing is.
The signal to noise ratio must be -120db. How would they
ever find anything useful in the data? Bin laden knew everything was tapped therefore he used a flash drive and
stuck it up a camels butt for safe keeping.

On the "positive side" at least they are looking for evidence. In a real police state they would just make you disappear if there was the slightest suspicion.

bbartlog - 16-3-2012 at 17:38

Eventually I expect one-time pads to make a comeback (as encryption mechanism). I believe Deutsche Bank still uses them for transaction authentication.

Magpie - 16-3-2012 at 18:16

Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
I'm more annoyed by the waste of money that this thing is....


That's the problem. After spending billions on this boondoggle they will have to continually find bogeymen to justify their jobs. That is the self-serving mission of all organizations - justify your job so you can put food on the table and send your kids to good colleges. Stalin's GRU/KGB is a prime example. They arrested thousands if not millions of innocent people and sent them off to the Gulags just to meet quotas. These quotas were driven by Stalin's paranoia about staying in power. (ref: Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn).

bfesser - 16-3-2012 at 18:23

Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I was reviewing the Wikipedia article on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad" target="_blank">one-time pads</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />, and clicked into the article on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_remanence" target="_blank">data remanence</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computer" target="_blank">quantum computer</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> be immune to this (data remanence)?

If so, I find it <a href="http://theoatmeal.com/comics/irony" target="_blank">ironic</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" /> that one of the major issues in computer security would be solved by the same technology that the government is (or soon will be) using to defeat other forms computer security<a href="view-source:http://theoatmeal.com/comics/irony" target="_blank" title="Do you like pterodactyls?">.</a>

Even more off-topic:
Is anyone else but myself pissed off by the sudden introduction of this bullshit term, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing#History" target="_blank">the cloud</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />, to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernacular" target="_blank">vernacular</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />?

[Edited on 7/9/13 by bfesser]

bbartlog - 16-3-2012 at 18:51

Inasfar as the quantum computer is more or less the processing unit whereas data remanence is an issue affecting the storage, I don't think a quantum computer would be unaffected by remanence. There are (I guess) other, more esoteric kinds of remanence that can be used to retrieve data from the RAM of a computer that has been turned off, and I guess no analogous attack would be possible on a quantum machine. But whereas remanence in hard drives has definitely been exploited practically in the real world many times, I'm not aware of any RAM remanence exploits being performed except as lab demonstrations or curios.

johansen - 16-3-2012 at 21:23

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
The most surprising and least verifiable claim in the article is that the NSA made a major breakthrough in defeating common cryptosystems sometime in the last several years. It is unclear if the claim is supposed to be about the public-key part, e.g. integer factorization for attacking RSA, or the symmetric key algorithms like AES that are hybridized with public keys.


Considering the Feds use commercial off the shelf cryptography for the SIPR net, there is no conspiracy. the NSA can't factor your private key.
but if they have physical access to your computer, its game over. hope you've got a red button under the desk. :)

.. what i would like to know is how many hard drives and tape drives the government is buying. If they indeed are keeping a copy of every email ever sent since the 90's (as implied by some of the things Thomas Drake said) then they are probably copying everything else too.. and that would require as many hard drives as say, Google buys?

btw: all of my instant messages are encrypted with OTR. cross platform and works with several im clients.

watson.fawkes - 17-3-2012 at 06:46

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
The most surprising and least verifiable claim in the article is that the NSA made a major breakthrough in defeating common cryptosystems sometime in the last several years. It is unclear if the claim is supposed to be about the public-key part, e.g. integer factorization for attacking RSA, or the symmetric key algorithms like AES that are hybridized with public keys.
There was a recent publication about a vulnerability in PGP key generation for RSA keys. Lots of common prime factors were found by applying Euclid's algorithm to the moduli found in a public key directories.

It's likely the NSA has already found this particular vulnerability, because it's a problem with the key generation software. The algorithm to find primes is (1) pick a random number and (2) search sequentially forward from that number and look for a prime. The problem is that the intervals p<sub>i+1</sub> - p<sub>i</sub> are by no means evenly distributed. There are certain primes with quite large gaps from the previous prime, and these will be found preferentially. Given the number of PhD number theorists at the NSA, I would be greatly surprised that they had not already found this defect.

I have to imagine that there are a number of relatively subtle implementation problems in every major publicly-available cryptosystem, and that this is the origin of the claim. I find this hypothesis entirely plausible.

Of course, the CIA doesn't want to be left out...

albqbrian - 18-3-2012 at 02:41

As we wander down the paranoid path, here's another way new technology makes spying on us sooo much easier. This just in.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2115871/The-C...

So let's see. we have:

1. The CIA spying via our electronics.
2. The NSA storing and analyzing basically anything done electronically.
3. We have the latest Defense Bill allowing secret, indefinite detention of US citizens. In the US.
4. We have the FAA working out the rules to let drones fly domestically.

Yeah, what is wrong with all this? I haven't done anything wrong, no one will bother with me.

Hmm, imagine this; entirely reasonable set of actions:

A Homeland Security (or CIA or NSA or DIA or ...) analyst, well, has to analyze something. The Boss just warned him about targeting Muslims as the backlash of NYPD's targeted spying generates more adverse publicity, DOJ scrutiny, etc. Well dang, who's left? Oh yeah, we had that memo a while back stating the great potential danger of former soldiers, militia's, and basic white, Christian domestic terrorists. All right! No one gives a shit about protecting their rights. Where to begin? Well they are all survivalist nuts right? How about we check that Survival Blog site; it's the most popular. Wow, look at all of these! Hey isn't there a website that talks all about explosives? Yeah, Science Madness right! Holy Shit! Look at this: high explosives , blasting caps, formulas. Now where would they get materials? How about Ebay, yeah, let's cross reference that. And while we're there let's see if they bought any books related to explosives, weapons; hell just get everything they bought. Might as well do the same with Amazon. Holy f***ing shit!!! "Boss, Ive got several hundred suspects who've been spewing anti-government talk, studying how to make bombs, and buying the supplies to do it!" Boss: "Wow! Great job." Let's kick this up the line and ask for full bore exams on them. Heck, computer time is nothing; let's put everyone on that Survival site and that Science sight under a fine toothed comb. I see a couple of great Annual reviews coming here." Ok, and while we're at it,...

Oh yeah, you've got nothing to worry about...

albqbrian - 18-3-2012 at 02:47

Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog  
But whereas remanence in hard drives has definitely been exploited practically in the real world many times, I'm not aware of any RAM remanence exploits being performed except as lab demonstrations or curios.


It has been found that data stays in RAM longer than anyone thought. And decay is a function of temperature. So if someone were to "bust down the door", grab a PC, rip out the RAM, and quickly cool it; they could grab a good bit of data. I haven't heard of that being done, but given all the computer grabbing governments around (sadly ours is one of the worst); I imagine it's only a matter of time.

bbartlog - 18-3-2012 at 09:25

Quote:
So if someone were to "bust down the door", grab a PC, rip out the RAM, and quickly cool it;


To be sure, it's possible. The point is that this is really inconvenient and would require special training and equipment on the part of the LEOs, and risk damage to the other components of the computer. You're talking about something that would only be useful in very rare circumstances (suspect is running TrueCrypt or other FDE with hefty key size and we can't strongarm him into cooperating, or something). 98% of the time just grabbing the hard drive will get them what they want. Which is why AFAIK it hasn't actually been done in real life.

GreenD - 18-3-2012 at 13:25

If they have a quantum computer they can run through algorithms like nothing.

Any algorithm could be broken by brute force in a reasonable amount of time by a quantum computer.

No idea if they have one, but on the paranoid side of things, it sounds like maybe they do? Who knows. The government has some pretty crazy projects going on.

So truecrypt & project tor are exactly what this base is set up to dismantle...

The signal to noise ratio, I'm willing to bet, is pretty large. If you psychoanalyze how people write, you can very easily sift through teenagers who are angry and paranoid and that 27 year old manifesto-writing-prophesizing destructor.

I'm willing to bet this brings about some major convictions of people with some KNO3 in their basement or shit like that...

arsphenamine - 18-3-2012 at 22:01

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
It's likely the NSA has already found this particular vulnerability, because it's a problem with the key generation software. The algorithm to find primes is (1) pick a random number and (2) search sequentially forward from that number and look for a prime. The problem is that the intervals p<sub>i+1</sub> - p<sub>i</sub> are by no means evenly distributed. There are certain primes with quite large gaps from the previous prime, and these will be found preferentially. Given the number of PhD number theorists at the NSA, I would be greatly surprised that they had not already found this defect.

Okay, I'll play straight man.

A brute force attack on RSA keys would require superpolynomial subexponential runtime
(even if you tried them all, then it would take a lifetime).

However, you say a directed key search using most-likely groups of primes is practical.

I wonder how many keys NSA can crack in a day? Their energy budget is equal to the
nearby state capital, and doubtless powers a lot of silicon.

watson.fawkes - 19-3-2012 at 07:25

Quote: Originally posted by arsphenamine  
However, you say a directed key search using most-likely groups of primes is practical.

I wonder how many keys NSA can crack in a day? Their energy budget is equal to the nearby state capital, and doubtless powers a lot of silicon.
To be fair, I didn't say anything about how the key generation vulnerability might lead to a practical attack. First, it's certainly conceivable that I'm wrong about the prime gap theory. It's possible it's some flaw in the random number generator that leads to a less-than-maximal set of initial seeds for the search.

In addition, I don't how the number theory falls out. The gaps between primes are not well understood, even though they've been extensively studied. The twin prime conjecture is testament to that. Wikipedia has a page on prime gaps; as you can see, there are lots of open questions. There's not a known asymptotic approximation (although there is Cramer's conjecture), nor are there sharp upper or lower bounds available.

A 1024-bit prime for a 2048-bit RSA modulus is in the interval [2^1023, 2^1024). The number of primes between 2^1023 and 2^1024 is approximately 2^1024/(1024 ln 2) - 2^1023/(1023 ln 2) ~ .0014 * 2^1023. (See the prime number theorem.) Even though that's only 1.4 in a thousand, it still means there are about 2^1014.5 primes in that range. That's a lot. Brute force attacks aren't likely to be very useful if you want to look at all of those.

If I were so motivated, I might do two kinds of experiments on this data set. The first is to replicate the original paper, find the common prime factors, and the calculate the prime gap that preceded each one. This would provide a certain amount of evidence about the likelihood that it's a number-theoretic problem. The second kind of experiment is simply to sample the prime gap in the stated interval and to create a histogram of the different values. From these measurements you could get an empirical estimate of the likelihood of collisions in prime factors given a modulus size and a population size. Such estimates could be used to inform the likelihood that it's a number theory problem.

neptunium - 19-3-2012 at 13:07

the head of the CIA has just announced today that they are either working on or already exist smart appliances to spy on people inside their homes!.
did he mispoke ? did he try to warned us? hard to say..
but the technology is there and smart fridge and microwave able to tell you how much calorie you are eating ARE a reality.

another thing slightly off topic, more and more laws are passed to make it harder and harder to start a business (taxi cab ,farmer, etc..) so lobbyist can make money and some judges and lawyers can make a name for themselves. this may be a differente cause but combine the two and you have a gov. that can spy on you or obtein mandat on frivolous pretexts.

what happen to "..for the people, by the people.." ?

[Edited on 19-3-2012 by neptunium]

GreenD - 20-3-2012 at 06:19

I heard this too, they are putting extremely cheap chips that can access the internet somehow, and track everything you do. What channels you watch, whether your toaster is up or down. When you open the fridge, etc. I don't know how exactly this works - since you'd need some kind of wi-fi in your appliances, and then a network for them to hook up into?

This country is "...for the companies, by the companies"

neptunium - 20-3-2012 at 13:40

i remember watching a show a few years ago , they were telling people that within a few years your fridge could tell you when you getting low on milk , your microwave could have a screen with cooking sudgestions etc...
our TV's are already doing all kinds of "smart" things eversince tivo...

To me it looks like we are getting dumber and dumber and worse! we let it happen!

so it should be no suprise that some big 3 letters agency wants to use this to their advantages ! we wont see it coming because we dont use our brain anymore.
we are being flooded and overwelmed by dumb entertainement ,frivolous lawsuit, ridiculous infomercials etc..... its getting harder to pick out the real worthy news .

its a cheap circus trick !
look at this hand while i steal your wallet with the other!

we are getting too dumb, entitle to free stuff, numb and assisted, to recognised any real danger.

we refuse to work hard like our ancestors did and we discourage curiosity and education !

Dont take my word for it! look arround and make up your own mind...if you still have one!




IrC - 23-3-2012 at 02:20

Quote: Originally posted by GreenD  
I heard this too, they are putting extremely cheap chips that can access the internet somehow, and track everything you do. What channels you watch, whether your toaster is up or down. When you open the fridge, etc. I don't know how exactly this works - since you'd need some kind of wi-fi in your appliances, and then a network for them to hook up into?

This country is "...for the companies, by the companies"



They already have a connection between all appliances. The AC power line. Decades old technology. In 1970 in high school I started studying bells and clocks in the school. I was curious that clocks appeared to reset to correct time errors at least once every few days. Puzzled over the fact their only connection was the AC power line I began studying things. Easy since my 11th grade year I had an electronics class the last 3 hours each day. At my bench I had scopes, and an outlet, and capacitors to isolate the 60 HZ power. I noticed a waveform impressed on the 60 cycle power just as clocks reset and also when all the bells rang. You guessed it, before the year was over I fired up the going home bell 3 times, an hour early and twice 30 minutes early. Great fun in a school of over 3,000, everyone would all get up thinking it was time to go home. Depressing when teachers and other officials corralled them all back to class but a few of us escaped. Guessing from the heated conversations between the principle and electronics teacher they had correctly assumed it was coming from our class. But nobody could prove it and none even knew which student to suspect. I only did it on the 3 days that year the teach was out for medical reasons and we had a substitute who did not understand electronics. Our real teacher would have figured me out real fast. But I was not stupid I had already figured out when I could get away with it. Complex computers were pretty non existent in 1970 which simplified taking control, as it was just a series of DTMF tones spaced in a certain way which controlled all clocks and bells school wide. I did alter the clocks dozens of times as various students wanted to see me change them but it always worked against us as they only set back not forward. The system was very primitive but interesting. Bottom line is talking over the power lines is simple, a couple 250 volt 0.1 uF caps gave an easy connection between hot and neutral to send anything from audio to RF. I used 0.1 uF for all audio and around 0.01 uF to send RF, or around that capacitance range anyway. Very high up agencies in the government have equipment which can read your entire hard drive down the AC power line. Don't ask me how I am sure it is very high tech gear but I assure you they can do it. My guess is they have to be on the same side of the pole transformer as the target, easy to do if they rent a place next door or close, or at least have power company uniformed people who can connect to the 240V bushings on their targets power transformer. Just my guess as to how they are not blocked by the inductance of the pole transformers. Of course they could send data slower, say with a 90 KHZ carrier, which is how power companies control substation switch gear from their main control facility. If so then I guess the spy could be further away. I doubt it since they could not isolate one target computer from another *** and likely every house in a neighborhood has a computer. Believe me this technology is real and they already use it. I suppose they could plug a box into one of your outside outlets or light fixtures, so if you ever notice an outside light out and a mysterious van parked nearby look out. Bottom line is gaining information from your appliances over power lines is quite simple. Knowing what and who only requires a unique identifying number stored inside in data. If you hate big brother as I do then do not buy new appliances with anything other than cash, and do not fill out and mail in the warranty card with your name and address on it.

Some of you will likely think I'm dreaming about the reading hard drives over the AC line, your loss if so the technology is already in use.

*** unless of course this was the reason for unique serial numbers being placed inside the main processor chips, again a technology already in use.

watson.fawkes - 23-3-2012 at 04:46

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
Very high up agencies in the government have equipment which can read your entire hard drive down the AC power line. Don't ask me how I am sure it is very high tech gear but I assure you they can do it. [...] Believe me this technology is real and they already use it.
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. It's wasting my breath to ask for a citation, but for the benefit of everyone else, I'll point out this is utterly unsubstantiated.

I've seen some paranoia here before, but this one tops them all. Unfortunately, that's quite saying something.

IrC - 23-3-2012 at 20:38

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
Very high up agencies in the government have equipment which can read your entire hard drive down the AC power line. Don't ask me how I am sure it is very high tech gear but I assure you they can do it. [...] Believe me this technology is real and they already use it.
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. It's wasting my breath to ask for a citation, but for the benefit of everyone else, I'll point out this is utterly unsubstantiated.

I've seen some paranoia here before, but this one tops them all. Unfortunately, that's quite saying something.


A real science inclined, open minded person would show how it is impossible, after all the word bullshit is within the reasoning skills of a 5 year old. Was this the best refutation you could provide? Is this an example of the keen inner workings of your analytical mind?

Just where do you expect to find public citations available for classified work? Surely your refutation could exceed the skills of a small child? Or am I wrong in this. I can see why I decided not to spend much time here anymore, seeing as how you expect all to perceive you as one of the brighter sparks who post here. If you are one of the best I am worried about all the rest. Seriously. I can tell you I have lifelong friends who work in various agencies which will remain un-named and I am merely mentioning things I have been told in conversations.

There is a reason for Tempest shielding, and it is not just worries about monitor radiation. If you had the equipment you would be able to see the data flowing in your computer is screaming fairly loudly all throughout the room, and it is within our technical capabilities to decode RF traveling common mode down every wire connected to a computer. Does not take an impossible amount of computing power to separate these bursts of energy as in ignoring monitor and switch mode power supply emissions and grabbing the data. My only question to one in particular was how did they command the drive to read. The reply was disclosure agreements will not allow me to explain, but consider viruses combined with a push almost 20 years ago by the DOD to award whichever entity who could come up with methods of broadcasting virus programs into enemy computers. Actually quite old technology from today's perspective. But then again you know everything so who am I to argue.

The tirade of a three year old would have sounded nearly identical to the one you posted towards me in your supposed refutation of my words. Hopefully this site has not completely gone down the toilet and someone here with knowledge and wisdom can do a better job calling bullshit on my words.

Personally I am sick of the childish ways in which you people choose to argue with others.


I think for the sake of any here who truly quest for knowledge I will leave you all with this bit of wisdom. The true measure of brilliance is when you know enough to understand you know almost nothing. This is diametrically opposite to you Watson Fawkes, you are still at that stage where you believe you know all and nothing can exist outside of the knowledge you have accumulated combined with your ability to understand.




[Edited on 3-24-2012 by IrC]

arsphenamine - 23-3-2012 at 22:39

Irc,

Your argument is unconvincing because you do not provide details,
but spend more time addressing someone's incredulity (derisively, I add),
then go on to cite vague and unverifiable authorities. These
tactics only hurt your credibility on a putative science forum.

Eventually only the indifferent, the unknowing, and the insincere will respond to you.



watson.fawkes - 24-3-2012 at 06:25

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
Personally I am sick of the childish ways in which you people choose to argue with others.
I wasn't arguing with you. I was warning others away from you.

Attempting to have a discussion with you is an utter waste of time, in my experience.

Rosco Bodine - 26-3-2012 at 10:42



quicksilver - 28-3-2012 at 09:54

Anyone with an interest in the Legal Right of Privacy should read this (perhaps more than once).

Attachment: Privacy Law in the USA.pdf (79kB)
This file has been downloaded 1488 times

Here is Senate Bill dealing with explosive devices (& chem weps) within the internet. VERY interesting reading. However one must set out to provide "bomb-making" information for illegal activities involving terrorist activities (which this discussion Forum does NOT do and has written rules against such documentation!
Remember, "NO Practical Use" in discussions in Energetics or any other Forum thus differing.


This material is well documented and should set MOST people's mind at rest. There are Constitutional Protections regarding reading and speech; yet there does now exist a line that should not be crossed. This is also known as the "Feinstein Bill"; some of which is annotated. Some of which is also being challenged. There ARE Supreme Court challenges and ATF protections (yes, ATF!) for research, inventions and hobby pyrotechnics.
This is due because some pyro materials are on the "ATF List" & are NOT designed to cause harm. There is a great deal of important material here that should be well understood. The gov't does not want people to harm one another but learning about subjects has very limited restrictions.
People have asked "didn't WikiLeaks" get shut down; infringing on the First Amendment"? In the Bills that have been passed and those amended, we can see the difference (whether we believe in the logic or not).



Attachment: 1st_and_SENATE-BILL.pdf (219kB)
This file has been downloaded 1409 times



[Edited on 29-3-2012 by quicksilver]

Loreenah - 29-3-2012 at 02:54

interesting files, quick

Ephoton - 2-4-2012 at 07:51

interesting :)

its not possible to use AC to & anything that goes through a filter like the caps and ferromagnetic
sheild that is in a power supply thought to cmos logic chips.

but believe what you will.

as for recording all phone internet and data calls well its been a political battle in the UK for years.
of course the most dodgy of dodgy governments has been doing this with there so called dot com
and at&t and there visa master card setups.

but then again needle in a haystack lack of man power and over all funding.

knowing is different to acting.

acting costs money even finding from the weath of data costs money.

then we have crypto afterwards and so many use it.

so find then decrypt. anything over 13 characters and 256 bit would take a 164 cpu machine over 6 months
to break and I mean well over 6 months.

cheapest I can find that service for (remember your using all of that super computer not some of its services)

is close on 3 million dollars.

thats only 256 bit and 13 characters and it all factors into powers as you go up in bits and characters.

26 characters with a 96 bit key then 2048 crypto and well kiss ya worries goodbye.

why the fear we have ssl and tor.

track that two keys all over 3 mill domestic to break. (maby 500K for those who own there own super kit)

how many users ?????

times buy half a mil.

Nicodem - 16-4-2012 at 23:35

Do not post any more propaganda leaflets here. They will be again removed on sight (you can call this censorship if you very much like that term!). There is no need to transform this thread into a garbage bin for ideological crap. This is an international and science forum and ideological fights relevant only for one single country definitively have no relevance for the forum community.

W O W !

franklyn - 20-4-2012 at 15:53

View all four parts

www.zerohedge.com/news/nsa-whistleblower-speaks-live-government-lying-you

___________________________

It just goes on and on, we have been at war now for
over a decade, this could never be during peace time.

www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-16-20/pentagon-smears-usa-today-reporters-investigating-%E2%80%A6-wait-it-%E2%80%A6-illegal-pentago
.

[Edited on 21-4-2012 by franklyn]

Rosco Bodine - 20-4-2012 at 16:49

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/nsa-whistleblower-speaks-live-...

I cleaned up the embedded players which are stuck at thumbnail size with no control bar at the page above

Part 1
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Part 2
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Part 3
<iframe sandbox width="560" height="315" src="http://www.democracynow.org/embed/story/2012/4/20/we_do_not_live_in_a" frameborder="0"></iframe>
Part 4
<iframe sandbox width="560" height="315" src="http://www.democracynow.org/embed/story/2012/4/20/whistleblower_the_nsa_is_lying_us" frameborder="0"></iframe>

[Edited on 21-4-2012 by Rosco Bodine]

AndersHoveland - 20-4-2012 at 20:03

I am liking all the posts that Rosco Bodine is making in this thread.

But just one little comment about Orwell. His criticism of nationalism was understandable. However, I am a supporter of nationalism. But I think perhaps my nationalism is of a different type than the one he was referring to: Nationalism of the type that has complete disregard for other nations, and has no problem monopolising and oppressively enforcing its sphere of influence.

[Edited on 21-4-2012 by AndersHoveland]

franklyn - 21-4-2012 at 07:24

@ IrC

While this is well developed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication it requires extensive retrofit
to a PC to enable eavesdropping. Presumably this would be done clandestinely when
you are away. The power supply must be by passed and connection to a bus made.
A big obstacle is if the unit is plugged into an uninterruptible power supply, as that
would need to be bypassed also.

Much more feasible for remote monitoring is Van Eck phreaking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking
To effectuate command / control of your machine still requires a receiving channel
such as ethernet / internet cable or wi-fi. To compromise a PC at will requires some
trojan to be installed somewhere, it need not be on your hard drive at all and can
be on a chip such as your bios. This would be outwardly indistinguishable from the
original and would display the same but would have hidden function acessible only
when activated by the eavesdropper.

Closely related to this is if such hidden functionality is built into the control board
of a hard drive. This circumvents the assumption that the drive is clean, when a
drive's disk is scanned for "hidden" partitions containing a trojan in the excluded
mapped areas of the low level format and none are found.


My knowledge of surreptitious surveillance extends well before PC's existed and
computers were known then as electronic data processors. There were individuals
who foresaw what was to come, notably Donn Parker who authored the seminal
overview of the problem titled Crime by Computer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn_B._Parker
Electronic data security as a professional specialty did not yet exist, and not until
later did professional organizations certify for it. Private sector networking of
security professionals provides timely notification of new threat scenarios.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUszNem9G5U
www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ZFYcihRF8


@ watson.fawkes

While technically overstated IrC is right about one thing, it is individuals with your
hubris and unfounded confidence in your omniscience that gave us memorable
events such as the Titanic and Chernobyl.

.

gregxy - 21-4-2012 at 22:51

Rather than being concerned about how much big brother monitors our communications, I think it is more important to be watchful for violations of
"due process of law" in general. It would be easier for an evil state to
simply fabricate false evidence than to go though the effort of decrypting
a bunch of internet traffic. How hard would it be for the CIA
to put bogus transactions on your Visa card? Or if they really wanted
you gone, just arrange an accident rather than a messy trial.

Fortunately, locking up productive (i.e. tax paying) citizens who pose no risk does not make sense. What is more of a risk to our freedom would be greater reliance on
fines, confiscation of personal property etc. Isolated individuals with shaky backgrounds would be the likely targets.

When I was a student, one of the my projects was to analyze a switching powersupply
for an encryption computer to see how much coded information could leak back from
the output to the input. If the coded information is on a distinct frequency it is very
easy to pick it up, even thought there are many filters and noise sources "in the way". As mentioned in the previous post the CRT or LCD signals make good targets.

watson.fawkes - 22-4-2012 at 07:12

Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
When I was a student, one of the my projects was to analyze a switching powersupply
for an encryption computer to see how much coded information could leak back from
the output to the input. If the coded information is on a distinct frequency it is very
easy to pick it up, even thought there are many filters and noise sources "in the way". As mentioned in the previous post the CRT or LCD signals make good targets.
Two questions: 1) Where was the top frequency rolloff? 2) Did you test demodulation, or just frequency response?

gregxy - 22-4-2012 at 14:05

This was 30 years ago so I don't remember much. I know the designers wanted
something like 100db of of isolation from output to input and all that we looked at was frequency response.

Demodulation would be quite a challenge since a computer will have millions
of signals switching based on the same clock. From a CRT it should not be
too difficult since there are 3 (RGB) relatively high voltage signals driving the tube
that you could pick up. For the LCD, there are thousands switching together,
if you picked up that signal I don't know how you would separate them to make
sense of it.

dann2 - 22-4-2012 at 17:18


On a slight derailment..........

The American embassy is Moscow was very concerned/paranoid, back in the good old days of the cold war, about the opposion reading each and every detail that was typed on their golf ball type writers. They had visions of the Russions beaming radar signals in through the walls onto the golf ball and analyzing the result to read the text being typed.
Of course it was not happening.

Dann2

gregxy - 22-4-2012 at 18:11

Quote: Originally posted by dann2  

On a slight derailment..........

The American embassy is Moscow was very concerned/paranoid, back in the good old days of the cold war, about the opposion reading each and every detail that was typed on their golf ball type writers. They had visions of the Russions beaming radar signals in through the walls onto the golf ball and analyzing the result to read the text being typed.
Of course it was not happening.

Dann2


The story that I remember on that one was that they could analyze the signature of current pulses coming from the motor that positioned the ball to determine what was typed, which sounds plausable. The Russians were also supposed to have given the American embassy a wall hanging that contained a passive RF resonator that would change frequency depending on the sound in the room. Very clever since it emitted no signal which made it hard to detect, but the Russians could query it with RF to listen in on the conversation in the room. The other trick is to bounce a laser off the
windows of a room to listen to what is being said inside.

I wonder how secure cellphones are? There were stories that they could be programmed to easedrop. And of course they continually track the position of
their owners. (Better wrap your tin-foil hat around your cellphone).

Financial transactions are now more tightly monitored. PayPal must be linked
to a bank account and the refillable visa gift cards require a SS #.

watson.fawkes - 22-4-2012 at 20:15

Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
I know the designers wanted
something like 100db of of isolation from output to input and all that we looked at was frequency response.
Designers of protection system are paranoid by nature, and not without cause. It would be quite a feat to be able to read anything much with a compensated probe on the +5 V supply rail, much less after passing backward through a power supply. Nevertheless, 100 dB of reduction is a kind of typical for TEMPEST specifications, because they worry about unknown advances made by the opponent. It's only money to put all that extra effort in, after all.

My real point, though, is that it's a mistake to confuse specifications for protection mechanisms with capabilities of eavesdroppers. (Not that you did, but others seem to.)

Rosco Bodine - 26-4-2012 at 15:50

<iframe sandbox width="622" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7SGWH3kirzg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Just another brick in the wall ........

gutter_ca - 26-4-2012 at 16:27

C'mon, Roscoe, that dude is a quack of the highest order. FN fired him, unsure why he keeps coming back...

http://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/ready-occupy-what-you-n...

http://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/how-big-deal-hr-347-cri...

ACLU is more serious about freedom than anyone, and they actually read the law.

Rosco Bodine - 26-4-2012 at 17:00

Napolitano is no quack and he was not fired. Go to the Fox website and you will see he is still there and has appeared many times since the time he was reportedly fired.
Here is an article posted by Andrew Napolitano at Fox News today. Freedom Watch was cancelled because Napolitano was telling Americans and the world more truth than the propagandists at Fox News wanted the people to hear.
Like much the same as is Ron Paul, Andrew Napolitano happens to be for real a straight arrow that doesn't fit discretely or inconspicuously well mingled amongst a quiver so full of such crooked shticks as the likes of O'Reilly who appears to be the dufus honcho there....unfortunately.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/04/26/social-security-ii...

What Napolitano says is likely more reliable than anything that will ever be reported by the ACLU which seems too often on the wrong side of issues. Sometimes the ACLU gets it right .....but too often they don't and they are very curiously, suspiciously selective about what things in which they choose to become involved, clearly being more selective about general political social aims than about bona fide constitutional issues involving any individual. ACLU gets involved when they perceive a politically popular class action lawsuit. ACLU stays conspicuously clear of criminal law issues and shows great preference for civil lawsuits which have questionable motivation.

<iframe sandbox width="622" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fOaCemmsnNk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://americanfreepress.net/?p=2841

By Pat Shannan

Was a popular television talk show host and former New Jersey judge kicked off Fox News because he went too far in disclosing facts about FBI setups and warmongering intrigues on the part of the U.S. establishment—key issues that AMERICAN FREE PRESS has been covering since its founding in 2001?

In recent days, former New Jersey Superior Court Judge Andrew Napolitano had been drifting dangerously close to the exit doors by providing the American people with simply too much truth. The first week of February he was abruptly canceled from the airwaves due to low ratings, Fox executives claimed.

Napolitano repeatedly opened his show with the question, “Can the federal government take credit for solving a plot of its own creation?”

Focusing on FBI claims that since 9-11 it has foiled multiple alleged terrorist plots to kill Americans, Napolitano pointed out that while there were some 20 such incidents, three were interrupted by private citizens who observed suspicious activity. But the remaining 17 that were “solved” by the feds all had a common and reprehensible thread: They were planned, plotted, controlled and carried out by the federal government itself.

Not unlike the 1993 first attack on the World Trade Center, the FBI had agents or informants befriend young Muslim men by luring them into cooperation with encouragement about being “like-minded” and anti-American. Then, of course, they were arrested before any damage could be done—followed by great hoopla the next day.

Napolitano also tackled Israel’s prime role in promoting a United States war against Iran, and this may have been the final straw for those signing his paycheck. The judge’s final guest and source of information was Michael Scheuer, the former chief of the CIA’s Osama bin Laden-watching unit.

While Scheuer accepts the U.S. government claim that bin Laden was the architect of 9-11, a point many researchers reject, he is a courageous critic of Israel and its U.S. lobby and, as Napolitano’s guest, pointed out that a war against Iran benefits Israel and Saudi Arabia but not the United States.

[Edited on 27-4-2012 by Rosco Bodine]

rollercoaster158 - 5-5-2012 at 16:11

On top of all of this: CISPA. It passed on April 26 2012. It allows the government to infringe on our privacy by logging every thing we do on the Internet. But don't take my word for it, read these:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120426/14505718671/insani...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CISPA

Funkerman23 - 9-5-2012 at 12:14

so far as I know the Senate has not passed it and it still faces a veto from the President. Not that I in anyway support the bill but we still have a little bit of hope on that matter.

Rosco Bodine - 23-5-2012 at 22:01

It is pretty abysmal that the lamestream media has all for the most part become propaganda ministries which filter and selectively report and spin the news with outright lies and with lies by omission as has become so plainly evident is the practice now. Fortunately the web has not yet succumbed to the censors and propagandists who seem to control completely the major media. The web and talk radio and a few print publications are about all that is left of honest journalism while the rest have gone the way of the old pravda in cold war era.

For example ...a huge news event took place in the last couple of days but went virtualy unreported in the bulk of mainstream media in the U.S. simply because it does not fit the political correctness propaganda narrative which is the policy and practice of the media propaganda conglomerate which we Americans now laughingly call the "Obama Media Group" or "leftstream media" or "lamestream media" and here's the story that went ignored

An absolutely unprecedented religious liberty First Amendment violation lawsuit was filed Monday by 43 Catholic dioceses against the Obama administration for reason of religious liberty violations inherent to incorrect definition by the Obamacare legislation of what constitutes a religious institution for purposes of application of rules made effective by the Obamacare law. The Catholic church is running television advertisemants openly calling for Christians to see to it by their voting that Obama is defeated and not reelected in the November elections. (unconfirmed) This is an unprecedented and historic event and yet it has been ignored by the major news media as if it had no special significance. Bascially the significance is that adversely affected by Obamacare are 200 universities, 600 hospitals, and 1400 nursing homes who say not just no but hell no to Obamacare and threaten to close and lock the doors to those institutions over a religious liberty issue on which there is no compromise possible. That is a huge story and basically it is a showdown between the Catholic church and the government ....where the government absolutely will lose. It is long overdue that the government be reigned in and put back on the reservation where it belongs and where the fence is the constitution which it has been ignoring too long in so many ways. If Obama doesn't believe the church can get that job done ...he is insane because they can and will get exactly that job done with a thoroughness that will be decisive. There is a 100% zero chance the government or Obama can prevail in their unconstitutional and plainly Marxist ambitions regardless of what the Supreme Court may say to the contrary about what it "rules" to be its own secular "interpretation of the constitution". To put it bluntly the "culture war" is about to have a reckoning which may not even wait until November but it absolutely will be over then. People have had enough of this crap from all branches of government brazenly ignoring the constitution. It has been a long time coming that it stop and reverse course. The plague on Americas house is not the church. It is the cure not the disease. A total of 12 separate lawsuits were filed collectively by 43 institutions including Notre Dame University.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=V4aCDdcX-K4

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/21/catholic-lea...

http://www.mrc.org/bozells-column/shameless-bias-omission

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/tim-stanley-the-ca...

AP wire

<iframe sandbox width="624" height="351" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eQVBHVjhmCY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


<iframe sandbox width="624" height="351" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/w9OXSBZSOn8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Edited on 24-5-2012 by Rosco Bodine]

edgeofacliff - 5-6-2012 at 21:37

Im thinking there are not enough truly intelligent government agents who could actually keep up with this conversation. That being said I fail to see how any government orginization or group of orginizations could sift through all the data, understand what they are reading, and have prosecutors that could make an intelligent argument that would be convincing enough for convictions. To do so would require astronomical amounts of money, and so many people that it would drain the economy and without all these intelligent people working to ensure our survival as a species we would be prosecuting ourselves out of existence. I think the real reason for all the gathering of information is not to enslave/incarcerate the population but to give the government a tool to destroy any individual or group that opposes them. Our government fears us (and rightly so) because they know there are people out there that can see through their propoganda and who can identify them for what they really are and/or what they are really after. So I believe most of their efforts are to produce fear to keep the population in check. The idea they are planning to incarcerate a large percentage of the population is based on fear, as to do so would be counter-productive if not impossible.

Catholic Church vs.US Govt.

edgeofacliff - 5-6-2012 at 21:53

Maybe this is what we have been waiting for. Many people in this country(USA) are fed up and want their Constitutional rights restored without being re-defined or watered down. With the two partys that have been running this country for so long we have nobody else to vote for and they make it harder and harder to vote. So we end up with low voter turnout and newer political parties have little chance of getting on the ballot. A very frustrating situation for American citizens. The pressure is building and its only a matter of time before it becomes too much to bear. How about a "Hundred million man march" on Washington DC?

Rosco Bodine - 6-6-2012 at 15:32

A hundred million with a few million extra to spare would probably be true there.
What seems so incredible is the sheer arrogance of those in government who incorrectly think and incorrectly assert by their actions that there simply are no constitutional prohibitions applicable to the excessive excercise of authority by government. A reality check on that score is definitely in the works, and not only concerning obummercare but concerning a few other "transformative change" kind of rules, laws, orders, policies and practices across a spectrum of areas which plainly trample the constitutional prohibitions which are the supreme law of the land and nullify any legitimacy for such misconduct by government. Enough is enough already is exactly what people have been saying for a long time, and I think saying it loud and clear, but not really "communicating" to a deaf dumb and blind audience in government. So maybe this is like the situation where a man is trying to talk to a mule but first needs to smack the mule upside the head with a 2 by 4 just to get its full attention and make sure it is listening. You have to believe that when things like this lawsuit are going on. This is where obummer gets taught how to say yes mam mother superior Barry is going to be a good boy from now on and he promises not to misbehave anymore in class :D

S.C. Wack - 6-6-2012 at 16:31

There are things we know, and things we don't know; the Washington Post says "they" want to make it all things we don't know -

Intelligence committees vow to stop leaks of secrets
By Greg Miller, Updated: Wednesday, June 6, 5:21 PM

The House and Senate intelligence committees announced plans Wednesday to draft new laws against leaks of classified information, adding to an uproar on Capitol Hill over a series of recent stories that revealed details of terrorism threats and CIA programs.

...

BTW if I may ramble on/off too, Rosco used the word nullify innocently enough, but, is jury nullification an option when such laws are used? The Just Us Dept. tried to set a slippery-slope precedent on prosecuting people who might say to someone that no, you don't have to convict despite the oft-repeated lies from the judge saying that you do, just last year. Defendant: pot-smoking chemist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/nyregion/26jury.html

Julian P. Heicklen, a 79-year-old retired chemistry professor, has often stood on a plaza outside the United States Courthouse in Manhattan, holding a “Jury Info” sign and handing out brochures that advocate jury nullification, the controversial view that if jurors disagree with a law, they may ignore their oaths to follow it and may acquit a defendant who violated it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/nyregion/brief-details-jur...

In a hearing last month, a prosecutor called Mr. Heicklen’s advocacy “a significant and important threat to our judicial system.”

They should have chosen a different defendant/District to test this, and they may do so in the future.
"Judge Wood made it clear that the indictment could be dismissed merely on a reading of the plain language of the statute"
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/indictment-agains...

AndersHoveland - 6-6-2012 at 21:30

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
It is pretty abysmal that the lamestream media has all for the most part become propaganda ministries which filter and selectively report and spin the news with outright lies and with lies by omission as has become so plainly evident is the practice now.

This is not really anything new, although it seems to have become worse over the years.

"...the political manipulation of the masses represents nothing but the final result of an incredibly tenacious and thorough manipulation of their mind and soul. ... At first I could not help but be amazed at how short a time it took this great evil [the media] power within the state to create certain opinion even where it meant totally falsifying profund desires and views which surely existed among the public. In a few days a ridiculous episode had become a significant state action, while, conversely, at the same time, vital problems fell a prey to public oblivion, or rather were simply snatched out from the memory and consciousness of the masses."
—Adolf Hitler, (in Mein Kampf)

"...logic is not independent of content..."
—Max Horkheimer, philosopher of cultural Marxism (on shaping public attitudes through the media)
Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  

Fortunately the web has not yet succumbed to the censors and propagandists who seem to control completely the major media. The web and talk radio and a few print publications are about all that is left of honest journalism while the rest have gone the way of the old pravda in cold war era.

So true, I completely agree.

ChemistryGhost - 5-7-2012 at 14:17

:o Holy crap! They could just be like "Surprise computer grab" and rip out the RAM and gather all of the information! Can they track down IP addresses even if you connect to different network connections sometimes? :o I hope they don't do that to me though, I'm just "that lonely loser" with no power or influence. I'm just a voice that floats around the internet and is rarely heard. Stop CISPA!

White Yeti - 30-7-2012 at 09:48

There is a silver lining to all this. I guess the fact that this project is publicised will also make it a potential target. Privacy infringement goes both ways:D

They know where you sleep and you know where they watch you from. That will only continue for as long as the internet and the press are not censored too heavily, but I think it's already being done and legislation is only one step behind.

Oh no!

ChemistryGhost - 30-7-2012 at 15:59

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W38EG0FZZw&NR=1&feat...
:o

franklyn - 22-6-2013 at 18:13

" all those antivirus programs you have on your computer to "make it safe" from
backdoors and trojans ? Guess what - they are the backdoors and trojans ! "

" According to news reports , ' Endgame ' is developing ways to break into
Internet connected devices through chinks in their antivirus armor."
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapid=98342557

" Endgame also offers its intelligence clients—agencies like Cyber Command ,
the NSA , the CIA , and British intelligence—a unique map showing them exactly
where their targets are located. Dubbed Bonesaw, the map displays the
geolocation and digital address of basically every device connected to the
Internet around the world "

" the client types in the name of the target organization , such as the Ministry
of Public Security’s No. 3 Research Institute , which is responsible for computer
security—or simply enters its address , 6 Zhengyi Road. The map will then display
what software is running on the computers inside the facility , what types of
malware some may contain , and a menu of custom designed exploits that can
be used to secretly gain entry.
www.defensenews.com/article/20130115/C4ISR01/301150007/Nathaniel-Fick-Former-CNAS-Chief-Heads-Cyber-Targeting-Firm

Full story here _
www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-22/meet-man-charge-americas-s...

If you are not part of the solution you are par tof the problem _
http://wikileaks.org/Statement-by-Julian-Assange-after,249.h...

_____________________________________


If you haven't learned anything by now , don't trust anything watson.fawkes says
Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
Very high up agencies in the government have equipment which can read your entire hard drive down the AC power line. Don't ask me how I am sure it is very high tech gear but I assure you they can do it. [...] Believe me this technology is real and they already use it.
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. It's wasting my breath to ask for a citation, but for the benefit of everyone else, I'll point out this is utterly unsubstantiated.

I've seen some paranoia here before, but this one tops them all. Unfortunately, that's quite saying something.


My subsequent rebuttal _
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=19386&pag...


" 5th column " - conspirators who undermine a larger group from within ,
with sabotage and disinformation. That there is concerted steering of the
dialog presented in Sciencemadness is plain to see. Just note who they
are , move on , and don't get baited into a fruitless argument intended
to make you weary. It's all just tactics.

.

[Edited on 23-6-2013 by franklyn]

watson.fawkes - 22-6-2013 at 19:49

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  
My subsequent rebuttal
Rebuttal? Hardly. Straw men, irrelevant link spam, semi-paranoid assumptions about firmware compromise by manufacturers. In other words, the usual.

I won't grant that you can recognize a rebuttal, but I will at least grant you that you can recognize your own butt. At least for now. Warning: Do not confuse them.

enzymes - 25-6-2013 at 08:59

Too feed into your paranoia - http://prism-break.org/ List of programs to perhaps avoid being spied on by proprietary software and government agencies.

franklyn - 26-6-2013 at 00:57

Alarm at what is actual is not paranoia which is imaginary persecution.
The unanswered question is what is it that prompts the actual paranoia
in government to know all about everyone , when your chances of being
killed by an act of terrorism is as remote as being struck by lightning twice
in your lifetime , assuming you survive the first time. That private business
collects and can make it available to other private parties should really rile
anyone who would protest being stalked in other circumstances. There
are bad people in all walks of life which is the reason to have oversight.
People who say what's the problem are clueless as a five year old.
I'll trust you only when you can't see my cards at the poker table.

P.S. the only way to keep from being spyed on is to use the U.S. mail
or a dead drop or other tradecraft like sendng encrypted items separated
into a few parts , which makes it not just difficult but impossible to crack
unless you posses all the parts and know they go together.

.

[Edited on 27-6-2013 by franklyn]

sonogashira - 26-6-2013 at 04:52

A suspicious government is a weak government. One cannot travel to the US without having their fingerprints taken! How the rest of the world treats it's criminals is how the US treats it's visitors. Any country which has a civil war so recently in its past will always be suspicious of itself, until it matures as a country and as a people.

[Edited on 26-6-2013 by sonogashira]

One Noose fits all

franklyn - 2-7-2013 at 01:11

www.the-free-foundation.org/tst7-1-2013.html

It seems I should bite my tongue , and be careful what I wish for.
Lower paragraph here _
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=17281&pag...

.

franklyn - 10-7-2013 at 21:50

DuckDuckGo.com

This 20-person business offers what none of the big search engines do ,
zero tracking. It doesn't use cookies or store data about its users'
IP addresses , doesn't offer user logins , and uses an encrypted connection
by default. (Google provides an encrypted connection for logged-in users ,
but not automatically for non-logged in users.) If the NSA demanded data
from DuckDuckGo , there will be none to hand over.

Another good reason to chuck Google , Yahoo , search _
Bet you didn't realize
Having your data passed around can also lead you to be charged more
for an item , if your browsing history shows you visit high-end sites ,
some sites will increase prices. ( That's why plane fares can drop if you
delete the "cookie" files in your browser.)

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/10/nsa-duckduckgo-gabriel-...

.

bfesser - 11-7-2013 at 05:57

<strong>franklyn</strong>, the NSA monitors and decrypts all internet traffic regardless of what search engine you're using. This is irrelevant. Why do you insist on constantly spamming nonsense in large colored fonts? And the links you provide often don't even support your wild claims.

adamsium - 11-7-2013 at 06:42

I'm sorry; I just can't resist any longer.

bfesser - 11-7-2013 at 07:11

With all the bullshit <strong>franklyn</strong> and <strong>Rosco Bodine</strong> have been posting, it completely slipped my mind to link to the obligatory Wikipedia article on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center" target="_blank">Utah Data Center</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />.

[Edited on 7/11/13 by bfesser]

franklyn - 11-7-2013 at 15:25

Relevent news _

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sm-cdn/reports/NSA-Black-Paper.pdf

or get it here _ Attachment: NSA-Black-Paper.pdf (954kB)
This file has been downloaded 1067 times

For the myopic who missed it before _
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/10/nsa-duckduckgo-gabriel-...

.

[Edited on 12-7-2013 by franklyn]

cyanureeves - 11-7-2013 at 19:19

o.k. this is already a big thread but i want to know if anybody here has gotten busted ordering chemicals already.we know our gun rights are always threatened,we know shit always coincide together when bills are difficult to pass.immigration reform(gun control),medical care(gun control)littering(gun control) which by the way we were told at work that we are all buying insurance or the IRS will be pissed.. it's scary because republicans from boston mass. act like democrats from texas and vise versa and i think big brother is the one warning people of big brother.honestly besides the obvious creepy feeling we all have is there proof among us?i personally i have just kept quiet because i've been kidding myself that i will eventually get that knack of things and be one of the exploiters/pervert anti-christ voyeurs. if i get busted i will scream it so loud everywhere i go unless of course big brother tells me not to.

[Edited on 7-12-2013 by cyanureeves]

franklyn - 12-7-2013 at 14:52

www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=25073#pid2919...
Precedence for this round about see first paragraph here _
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9118

.

AndersHoveland - 12-7-2013 at 15:36

Quote: Originally posted by johansen  
the NSA can't factor your private key.

They will soon be able to, and then even public key encryption will not offer protection.

A technology company called D-Wave Systems, in Burnaby, British Columbia, recently manufactured a quantum computer for Google. Although this custom quantum computer is just a prototype, containing only 512 qubits, interfaced with a conventional computer its potential usefulness has already demonstrated.
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/google-buys-a-quant...

It would take a quantum encryption system, and a huge bandwidth of encryption code, to be able to counter this. This might not be completely unfeasible for computer users in the future, with fiber optic cables and cloud computing to a host organization's quantum computer processor. But then again, the unencrypted data could be intercepted before it became encrypted.

I would not be surprised if the NSA has already developed an advanced quantum computer in secret and is using this in its new facility.

[Edited on 12-7-2013 by AndersHoveland]

franklyn - 12-7-2013 at 18:16

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
I would not be surprised if the NSA has already developed an advanced
quantum computer in secret and is using this in its new facility.

This is very true. Intelligence gathering has the highest priority in funding of
projects earmarked by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency ,
DARPA. Reconnaissance satellites most notably. Since money is no object ,
technology is developed that is 10 -15 years in advance of anything in the
public realm. Later , advanced technology becomes subject to export
controls and distribution will remain limited to approved users. If the more
prosaic electronic test equipment from Tectronix and Agilent are indicative
don't expect quantum processors to be common before 20 - 25 years
from now , barring unusual developments. Even then expect these to have
limitations built in to prevent undesired application , similar to ' locking '
conventional microprocessors so that they cannot be overclocked to run
faster , and built in circuits enabling or disabling functions according to
permissions obtained for it. Tamper resistance causing failure of the whole
processor or just selected functions also will interrupt unapproved uses.
Another article on the D-wave _
www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-05/17/quantum-computer

.

Rosco Bodine - 12-7-2013 at 22:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxl8mwLanfw

<iframe sandbox width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Bxl8mwLanfw?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Equivocation makes it alright , doesn't it.

franklyn - 4-8-2013 at 20:45

www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program...

XKeyscore covers " nearly everything a typical user does on the internet ", including
the content of emails , websites visited and searches , as well as their metadata.
XKeyscore allows analysts to search the metadata as well as the content of emails
and other internet activity , such as browser history , even when there is no known
email account. Analysts can also use XKeyscore and other NSA systems to obtain
ongoing " real-time " interception of an individual's internet activity.

The distinction between private sector and government agency is now undifferentiated
Surveillance that rivals that of the STASI East German Police State is to provide
intelligence on the loyalties of Americans in all areas of government sensitive to
obstructing the ' progressive ' new world order. This enables discrimination based
on Ideological criteria to admit ' fellow travelers ' consolidating a 5th column that
will override constitutional provisions and safeguards. If your career advancement
is stalled , and you're incredulous at how mediocrities , fools and idiots zoom ahead
right past you , now you know how.

“ This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry
is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic , political , even
spiritual — is felt in every city , every State house , every office of the Federal
government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must
not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil , resources and livelihood are
all involved ; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government ,
we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence , whether sought or
unsought , by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of
misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this
combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing
for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing
of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods
and goals , so that security and liberty may prosper together.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower , 1961

“ Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition,
it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures,
until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where
everyone lives in fear.” - Harry S. Truman

" The accumulation of all powers , legislative , executive , and judiciary , in the same hands ,
whether of one , a few , or many , and whether hereditary , self-appointed , or elective ,
may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.”
- James Madison

" I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedoms of the people by gradual
and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
- James Madison

The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become
the instruments of tyranny at home.
— James Madison

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
— William Pitt[/size][/font]

www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/07/top-experts-have-warned-for-...

The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is
to take a little of their freedom at a time , to erode rights by a thousand
tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way the people will not
see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at
which these changes cannot be reversed.
— Attributed to Adolf Hitler
Sounds just like a ' progressive ' doesn't it.

Because the regime is captive to its own lies , it must falsify everything.
It falsifies the past. It falsifies the present , and it falsifies the future. It falsifies
statistics , It pretends to fear nothing. It pretends to pretend nothing.
— Vaclav Havel

The further a society drifts from truth , the more it will hate those who speak it.

_______________________________________________________


Some people will tell you I'm the one full of hyperbole

The real men in black.
https://medium.com/something-like-falling/2e7d13e54724
Regarding the retractions following that report below here , I don't buy it
We're being GasLighted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
I know counterintelligence , the NSA has a lot of repairs to make.
The public perception being foremost.
http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/01/employer-tipped-off-police-...

www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/08/02/google_search_pr...

That the Suffolk police would issue a disclaimer so as not to jeopardize
their stipend from the Department of Homeland Security ( who really runs
the NSA ) is entirely transparent. That alone should disturb anyone.

----------------------------------------------------------------

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2013/07/31/googl...

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/25/heres-ev...

_____________________________________________


www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2013/07/ns...

As I previously said :
" if you want to change the law , no need to do so , you just change the
meaning of the words so that it is not what it meant when it was written."
here _
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4624#pid77296

The Liar

Deceiver, dissembler
Your trousers are alight
From what pole or gallows

Shall they dangle in the night?

When I asked of your career
Why did you have to kick my rear
With that stinking lie of thine
Proclaiming that you owned a mine?

When you asked to borrow my stallion
To visit a nearby-moored galleon
How could I ever know that you
Intended only to turn him into glue?

What red devil of mendacity
Grips your soul with such tenacity?
Will one you cruelly shower with lies
Put a pistol ball between your eyes?

What infernal serpent
Has lent you his forked tongue?
From what pit of foul deceit
Are all these whoppers sprung?

Deceiver, dissembler
Your trousers are alight
From what pole or gallows
Do they dangle in the night?

— William Blake ( 1810 )

-----------------------------

Lying is what people do , it's all they do , all of the time. Get over it.
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15792#pid2047...

.

ChemistryGhost - 5-8-2013 at 11:58

A little paranoia is fine, but when it stops you from reaching your full potential(or at least half that), it becomes problematic.


Power.png - 48kB Power 2.png - 750kB

sonogashira - 5-8-2013 at 12:59

Action = Power - Knowledge
Knowledge = Power - Action

Choose knowledge!

franklyn - 11-8-2013 at 01:58

A number of secure email platforms like Lavabit and Silent Circle, have
now folded under intense pressure from the United States government.

Lavabit was an email service used by Edward Snowden. From the very
cryptic message that CEO Ladar Levison left on his website, it appears
that he has been approached by the NSA to turn over email records.
Rather than work with the NSA , Levison has shuttered his operations.
http://lavabit.com
www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/08/lavabit-email-shu...

And to boot, Silent Circle CEO Mike Janke announced that his organization
was pre-emptively discontinuing its email platform ' Silent Mail '.
http://silentcircle.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/to-our-customer...
Janke says he sees the writing on the wall and knows
" US government would come after us."
www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2422912,00.asp
www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2013/08/09/e-mails-big-priva...

It's incredible that businesses have to essentially commit suicide
in order to keep from violating their oath to their customers.

.

It's deja vu all over again

Rosco Bodine - 11-8-2013 at 12:09

Totalitarian Statism is not some dystopian myth that is only a future possibility to be soon coming to a neighborhood near you, but is being recognized more and more for the reality that it already exists and has already swallowed up all of the regional neighborhoods. It exists whether or not you are a "fellow traveller" and sycophant supporter of the dystopian socialist "borg collective" in its every ambition and agenda which is an ultimate expression of social Darwinism. According to the subversives who are advancing the statist agenda there are no natural rights of the individual, but every human behavior along with the speech and the thinking that would spontaneously originate from the individual must be conformed to the format and content which is deemed by the global administrators, the "hive directorate" to be socially and politically correct with regards to the faux altruistic proposition that such conformity serves the greater good of the collective. It is the ideology of cultural Marxism which evidently is driving the world towards new definitions of what is "socially healthy" and "correct" thinking and language and behavior which conforms to a certain template for what is healthy and normal, versus what is sociopathological and requring intervention. But what it really comes down to is the elimination of the freewill and choice of the individual, where every subordinate subject of the New World Order has been put in receipt of essentially one choice only as mortal beings, to submit and accept whatever lot in life is being assigned unto them by their overseers as subjects who recognize what is good for them and comply, or to resist and incur the wrath of every agent of the state whose task is enforcement of compliance and inflicting of painful consequences upon any who are insubordinate to the police state.

This is precisely the social / economic / political scheme about which authors like George Orwell, Aldous Huxley, and Ayn Rand have warned us all. Some people are smart enough to "get it" and recognize what is occurring in the world, while others are simply too brainwashed and stupid to recognize what is occurring and largely already has occurred.

IrC - 11-8-2013 at 12:12

The NSA is turning the internet into a total surveillance system:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/11/nsa-int...

Rosco Bodine - 11-8-2013 at 12:28

What too many don't understand is it is already a done deal about so many things as they have an illusion is some "future" potential nightmare. Future Shock awaits the reckoning about what is already here. The world simply didn't get the memo.

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here

franklyn - 29-8-2013 at 06:08

It has become standard operating procedure for our
country to be run now by paranoic control freaks.
We are told that terrorists hate our liberties and
freedom , and to combat terrorism to protect our
liberties and freedoms we need to give up our
personal rights and freedom. This narative only makes
sense if you smoke bath salt in North Korea.

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?10377-14...

.

bfesser - 29-8-2013 at 07:05

<strong>franklyn</strong>, please stop writing things like "our country" when you're only referring to the United States.

http://boingboing.net/2012/07/02/cops-in-usa-to-drive-around...

Well, I guess it's about time to add Pb-lined shorts to the standard nutter kit (foil hats).

foil_hat_conspiracy.jpeg - 25kB alien_conspiracy.jpg - 124kB

Does anyone else find it amusing that actual Sn foil would be more effective than Al foil
at absorbing certain radiation, yet the vernacular of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat" target="_blank">"tin foil hat"</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> actually refers to aluminium?

Whatever happened to Truth , Justice , & the American way

franklyn - 30-8-2013 at 00:37


" it's a conspiracy "

no , it's a coincidence. It only seems conspired


catshit.jpg - 6kB


www.americanthinker.com/2013/07/the_obama_doctrine_of_contro...

www.discoverthenetworks.org/articles/rules for revolution (2...



Strelnikov interviews Zhivago
The good old days when you got the truth , from people , instead of making it
up based on what canals you thought you saw on Mars through your telescope.
But that's alright , what's a few lies among fellow country men.

<object width="560" height="354" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="http://movieclips.com/e/qbytT/0/206.77" style="background: #000000; display: block; overflow: hidden;"> <param name="movie" value="http://movieclips.com/e/qbytT/0/206.77" /><param name=FlashVars VALUE="autoPlay=false"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /> <param name="bgcolor" value="#000000" /> <param name="wmode" value="transparent" /> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /> <embed src="http://movieclips.com/e/qbytT/0/206.77" FlashVars="autoPlay=false" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" movie="http://movieclips.com/e/qbytT/0/206.77" wmode="transparent" allowscriptaccess="always" ></embed> </object> <div style="margin: 0; padding: 1px 0 0 0; width: 560px; height: 27px; background: #000000; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 4px; -webkit-border-bottom-left-radius: 4px; border-bottom-left-radius: 4px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 4px; -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius: 4px; border-bottom-right-radius: 4px; text-align: center; line-height: 11px;"> <a href="http://movieclips.com/qbytT-doctor-zhivago-movie-the-private-life-is-dead/" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Sans-serif; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10px; color: #00aeff; text-decoration: none;">The Private Life is Dead</a><br /> <a href="http://movieclips.com/R8WqQ-doctor-zhivago-movie-videos/" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Sans-serif; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10px; color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none;">Doctor Zhivago</a> <a href="http://movieclips.com/" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Sans-serif; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10px; color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">at MOVIECLIPS.com</a></div>

argyrium - 6-9-2013 at 10:20

For a fun little read...

Eddygp - 13-9-2013 at 13:46

Quote: Originally posted by sonogashira  
Action = Power - Knowledge
Knowledge = Power - Action

Choose knowledge!


Uh-oh choose power!

Collaboration is not conspiracy but collusion is.

franklyn - 13-10-2013 at 14:24

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/oct/13/us-scared-...

• Michael Hayden, a former head of both the NSA and the CIA, said something very interesting. In a discussion of how to secure the "critical infrastructure" of the United States he described the phenomenon of compromised computer hardware – namely, chips that have hidden "back doors" inserted into them at the design or manufacturing stage – as "the problem from hell". And, he went on, "frankly, it's not a problem that can be solved".•

This was pioneered by the US , it is what compromised Iraq's air defense systems in Desert Storm 1990. An electromagnetic pulse is the least of anyone's worries when failure on demand is built in to everything already.


• At the Black Hat security conference in August last year, for example, a researcher named Jonathan Brossard demonstrated software that can be burned into the hardware of a PC, creating a back door that would allow secret remote access over the internet. And – here's the really scary bit – the secret entrance couldn't even be closed by switching off the computer's hard disk or reinstalling its operating system. •

.

franklyn - 15-10-2013 at 06:25

http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/EMail-Address-Books...

http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/Backdoor-Found-in-D...

.

Foiling Facial Recognition Algorithms

bfesser - 26-12-2013 at 13:47

<em><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/12/14/opinion/sunday/20121215_ANTIFACE_OPART.html" target="_blank">Face to Anti-Face</a></em> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" /> (nytimes.com)

<table width="100"><tr><td>Looks like these guys had the right idea:</td><td>Hiding facial structures will be more challenging for some:</td></tr><tr><td>furies.jpg - 62kB</td><td valign="top">luther.jpg - 110kB</td></tr></table>

[Edited on 26.12.13 by bfesser]

franklyn - 30-12-2013 at 21:06

Follow up on my previous commentary here _
• http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=19386&...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-power...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-power...
• http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-power...

• http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/catalog-reveals-ns...

Very Good _
http://www.youtube.com/embed/b0w36GAyZIA
Goes to show if you use electronics , you live in a glass phone booth.

Find the stories linked above in zip here _
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=19989&...


I remember when the ' Watergate ' scandal was considered major criminal conduct. It ended a Presidency.
Today the scope of government criminality is far beyond that , and sanctioned.

A bit of history for the complacent
www.youtube.com/embed/dFpmFuv3bxI

Hollywood on target
http://swampland.time.com/2013/06/07/former-nsa-chief-was-wo...
See - Enemy of the State - any one of these _
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKxQv_SVBSY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aRh52pUkh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg8T1zKKrXM

.

franklyn - 1-1-2014 at 09:34

This doesn't get any better _

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/12/bgp-hijacking-belar...

.

You thought only computers were at risk

franklyn - 25-7-2014 at 16:06

www.megaleecher.net/Chinese_Spying_Electronics

It just gets better and better doesn't it

franklyn - 31-7-2014 at 14:45

http://news.yahoo.com/hackers-tap-usb-devices-attacks-resear...

http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/31/why-you-can-no-longer-trus...

.

An overview

franklyn - 4-8-2014 at 20:35

2014 Data Breach Investigations Report
www.verizonenterprise.com/DBIR/2014/reports/rp_Verizon-DBIR-...

.

franklyn - 12-11-2014 at 17:57

" Brazil announced that it will be building a 3,500-mile fiber-optic cable to Portugal in order to avoid the grip of the NSA. What’s more , they announced that not a penny of the $185 million expected to be spent on the project will go to American firms , simply because they don’t want to take any chances that the US government will tap the system. Brazil has banned the use of Microsoft technologies in all government offices , something that was also done in China earlier this year. Brazil’s rejection of American IT products alone , it is estimated will lose American firms over $35 billion in revenue over the next two years."
• Quoted from here _
http://www.sovereignman.com/personal-privacy/brazil-builds-i...

Given that American and Swiss banks have colluded to manipulate currency exchange rates to skim the increased costs they created , economic expionage is a reality that warrants action too prevent future theft. The U.S. is no longer trustworthy and having lost the confidence of other nations , that will never be recovered.

.

What was for military use only

franklyn - 20-1-2015 at 07:52

is now in general paramilitary use


http://www.freep.com/story/news/2015/01/19/police-radar-see-...

.

Loptr - 20-1-2015 at 08:39

It will be enabled by the "Internet of Things"; mark my words!

Chemosynthesis - 20-1-2015 at 12:11

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  
" [...]not a penny of the $185 million expected to be spent on the project will go to American firms , simply because they don’t want to take any chances that the US government will tap the system.


I know they have to try something, because it makes no sense to just hand over all their intel to a foreign government, but I think that's just political posturing.
My reasoning?
Because that worked so well for the USSR in the 1970s. Operation Ivy Bells, anyone?
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